How to negotiate offers?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > How to negotiate offers?

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Korovyev posted:

Thanks for your help! I've replied with a strong "My salary expectation is $55k". $50k is my sweet spot and anything lower I'd really have to think about. They've also asked me to meet their VP of Sales next week for an extra layer of interviews since he'll be in town. I take that as a good sign.

I'm also working on a web-based business venture that I'm hoping will be my main source of income in the future, and having more free time is way more important to me than money. (Just finished reading the 4 Hour Work Week)

I hate to say it, but you completely screwed up. There is now a 0% chance you will get a offer above $55k. Before you said $55k, there was a chance. Also, if they weren't willing to pay you $55k, telling them your salary expectation wouldn't make them magically increase their offer. You effectively put a cap on their offer without asking them to increase what they were willing to offer you.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2014 22:51

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 06:11

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Fiedler posted:

Here's what I'm thinking about doing:
Take no action until after the interview with Company D next week. If Company D doesn't make an offer, then at that point I would attempt to get Companies B and C to bid against each other, at the conclusion of which I would accept the highest offer.

On the other hand, if Company D does make an offer, I'm not sure how to handle that. Also, I'm not sure whether to inform Company D up front about the other offers and their amounts, or to inform them only about the existence of other offers, or not to inform them at all. My assumption is that it's better to inform them up front about the existence of other offers, but without disclosing the amounts.

With the exception of making B & C bid against each other, I agree with your course of action. I would tell company D about the offers, but at the appropriate time during salary negotiations. Definitely don't disclose the amounts until after D offers (if they do).

# ¿ Mar 13, 2014 22:54

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

While you're right that it caps the discussion, it also has the effect of pulling the discussion upwards in a situation where you think you're going to get offered below your target. Not a screw up to put a stake in the ground when you've already tried to get a bid and the employer turns it around on you. Unless you have an extremely strong position you don't gain by again telling them no, especially if it's a job you want and want to keep things moving forward. Based on his description, his $55k is safely above what he might expect them to offer and is also well above what he'd be happy making.

We're going to have to disagree. Korovyev did two things by stating his expectation. First, he prevented the company from throwing out a lowball offer, which may have saved them some time and effort. Second, he capped the negotiations at $55k. Neither of these effects actually increased the budget available for the position. If $55k is less than the budget available, and Korovyev does well at the interviews, he'll get an offer of $55k. If the budget is less and he does well, he'll get a counter-offer less than $55k. However, if he hadn't made his expectations known, he'd simply get an offer, which he could then evaluate and attempt to negotiate higher.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 12:01

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Fiedler posted:

I appreciate your thoughts. Would you recommend that, in the event that Company D doesn't offer, I simply accept whichever of B and C makes the highest offer? Or, alternately, counter them both with a request for a base salary equal, say, to my current salary + 50%?

Both corkskroo and Kalenn Istarion are spot on. I would tell the companies that you have three other offers and you'd like them to submit their best offer.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 12:07

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

Did you miss the post where he described that he had already gone back to them with a 'make me an offer' comment and they've now stated twice that he needs to provide some sense of expectations? Your points are all valid for an opening discussion but at some point you need to be willing to put a stake in the ground if you want to move things forward. You run a serious risk of the company just telling you to gently caress off by trying to be too cute. If you're indifferent to who you work for then you can play it tougher but be prepared to lose the offer. In this case it was pretty clear that he viewed the job as a significant upgrade even with a salary cut, so would probably be disappointed by losing the offer through playing it too tough.

Nope, I didn't miss the point. This isn't an Austin Powers movie where you have to answer if they ask you three times. If $55k was an actual assessment of how much his skills were worth on the open market, I wouldn't have a problem with discussing salary expectations. Instead it's based on what a friend (who may have been lowballed) says he made 5 years ago. Given that he currently makes more money with better benefits in the current job market, I'd guess that stating his expectations as being $55k is lowballing himself.

Like I said before, we're just going to have to disagree. I think you gave Korovyev bad advice and it's going to potentially cost him thousands of dollars per year without actually increasing either the chances of getting an offer or the amount offered. Korovyev should evaluate both our positions and come to his own decision.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2014 13:17

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Korovyev posted:

To add a few factoids to the situation, this is for a gaming company, and that industry has a history of terrible pay because the majority of applicants don't have any experience, are huge video game fans, and don't mind being low-balled to work in a "fun" environment. Said company has a history of underpaying people on Glassdoor and from what I can tell hasn't had to deal with many people (or many women for that matter) playing hardball on offers.

I'll let you guys know what transpires, and if its a terrible deal, I can always walk away.

How many interviews with different companies have you had? If this is the first place you've applied and you get an offer, your skills might be more in demand than you realize. Don't take a pay cut to work for the first company that makes an offer just because your current job sucks. You also need to try to put a dollar figure on what the corporate culture is worth to you. Would you rather play video games with your friends over your lunch break or get paid an extra $10k/yr? Would you put up with a lovely company for an extra $20k/yr? Keep in mind that a company's culture can change fairly quickly, especially if they start missing sales targets or get bought out.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2014 13:31

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Cultural Imperial posted:

I asked this question in the newbies finance thread so apologies in advance if it's not appropriate for me to ask again here. Let's say I'm making 100k as a permanent employee. What salary do I need to ask for if I were to go into contracting? What does insurance and assorted overhead cost in the US?

That's a spectacularly difficult question to answer and varies from state to state. You need to cover your employer's half of the federal payroll taxes, buy health insurance (yay ObamaCare), and add the cost of any other benefits (like paid time off). Then you have to factor in your tax rate. There's a good chance you'll be in a higher bracket and some of your itemized deductions, like student loan interest, may go away. Realistically, I'd ballpark $130-150k depending on where you live. Oh, and you'll probably turn into a Republican.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2014 23:44

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Ethanfr0me posted:

I received an offer today from a company that I'd really like to work for, but the offer was lower than I thought. I currently make $50k, they said that the position they're offering usually starts at $36k, but that given my experience they would be willing to go "significantly higher". The benefits are about the same and its 2 blocks from my house, so even if they could match my current salary (honestly a little less even) i'd be happy.

Should I ask for $55k and see what happens or just say its lower than my current range. The offer was via email and I have a negotiation interview next week, should I reply via email with a number or wait until the interview to discuss?

I think you forgot to post the actual offer. Do you know what your skill set is actually worth in your market?

# ¿ Mar 28, 2014 01:16

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Epic Doctor Fetus posted:

I will be graduating from nursing school shortly and entering my first hospital job sometime this summer. Because I have very limited clinical experience (mainly my clinical rotations at the hospital I hope to be employed by), I fully expect to be offered close to the very bottom of the pay scale. I do have one point of negotiation leverage and I would like some feedback on how to play it. The unit I would like to work on is considered an entry level unit and many people who are hired onto that unit leave after they get one year of experience so that they can transfer to their preferred unit (which usually don't hire inexperienced new grads). The average cost to train a new nurse is in the ballpark of $60-80K. I happen to like the fast pace and patient diversity of this unit and plan on sticking around for quite some time, but I also know that if I get hired at the bottom of the pay scale that my market worth is going to quickly outpace my salary, as a nurse with 3-5 years experience gets paid quite a bit more than a nurse with no experience.

My question is how should I phrase that starting me at a higher rate than they usually start new grads would be mutually beneficial? I won't leave the unit/hospital if I'm making market value, which saves the unit/hospital from the costs of training a new nurse, the hassle of the hiring process in general, and keeps my experience and expertise on that unit. My concern is that if I bring up market value, it'll lead to the conversation that the best way to get your market value is to jump ship and then I'll be tagged as someone with one foot out the door if I don't get the pay bump before I've even finished the interview.

The other thing going for me is that I am well liked by a majority of the nursing staff on this unit and they have highly recommended me to the unit manager.

Unfortunately, your point of leverage is extremely weak. Even if you plan on sticking around for longer, there are dozens of legitimate reasons you could not. For example, you could move, burn out, fall in love, fall out of love with your SO, date a coworker and have it blow up, decide you like other units better, not like your boss, like another unit's boss more, get pregnant, get your SO pregnant, get a significantly higher offer, realize you're still underpaid, and so on. As much as I hate to say it, most people applying for true entry level jobs have little or no leverage.

There was some talk of BATNAs (Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement) in this thread. Your BATNA is truly awful--you're unemployed and every month you're without a job makes you less likely to find one. But it gets worse, you'll also have a strike against you, because everyone will wonder why the hospital where you have connections refused to hire you. Their BATNA is strong--they hire another unproven nurse just like you. Given your lack of clinical experience, I'd just tell them what they wanted to hear, i.e. "I'm excited for the opportunity!" and build some experience. If the offer is significantly lower than what your friends are offered, you can make a counter, but I'd suspect the entry level nursing positions are treated as a commodity and as a way for the hospital to find good nurses for other units.

This reply is already getting long, but I figure it warrants an example. There's a particular office at my workplace where all the new hires go to start. If they prove competent and get along with everyone, they get a fairly large raise and a transfer to a different office. Otherwise they get let go. If a new hire said they wanted to work long term in that situation, I'd think there was something wrong with them and they were desperate. Also, everyone who gets hired into that office gets an offer. We don't lowball them, but we have 20 or 30 talented applicants for every position, so we don't bother dealing with negotiations and counteroffers. We'd actually improve productivity in the short term by getting rid of that whole office, but that would be cannibalizing our future.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2014 17:14

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Big Ol Marsh Pussy posted:

I've been applying for entry level public sector transportation engineering jobs, and on Friday I was given an offer by hometown public works department for an internship with a virtual guarantee of full time employment within a year (and if for some reason it doesn't work out like that, I'm also returning to school for my master's and will have a year of experience so I'm ok with that). They've given me a deadline of close of business Monday to accept, and I intend to do so.

However, I also interviewed strongly with a state DOT of a different state two weeks ago, and have not heard back from them. I'd prefer to take that job if offered because it's full time out of the gate and I'm interested in moving to the area. Is there any way to e-mail them to try to get an offer from them before I have to reply to the other job that doesn't completely sacrifice any position I have bargaining for salary? I feel like if I say "another job offered me, but I'm yours if you can offer me today" leaves me with absolutely zero leverage.

Of course there's a strong chance that they won't be able to do that because this sort of stuff takes forever in the public sector, and there's also a chance this is all pointless because they already hired someone else and are just waiting for him to pass a drug test or whatever before sending rejections, but I figure trying is better than not trying.

I'd just take the internship and worry about the full time job if it comes along. No reasonable person is going begrudge an intern taking a full time job. You might even be able to leverage the internship into a full time job immediately if you get a full time offer elsewhere.

Also, I wouldn't worry about salary leverage. Obviously it varies from state to state, but most states have published salary schedules and each job opening will be coded for a specific pay level. Check if your state has steps within each band. If so, you might be able to negotiate a higher step. Also, a lot of state employees are nominally unionized, which may or may not preclude salary negotiations.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2014 13:10

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Earth posted:

For an update. My "handler" (don't know what else to call the person who's doing the job offering) got back to me and told me that they are going to go ahead and do the original offer paperwork, and then I go for the counter. From that stage it enters the counter process. Hooray bureaucracy! They specifically want to do it this way because it will be quicker. If it were to go the other way then it could take longer. So I'm going to take that as a good sign that they want to quickly take care of this stuff.

Tell me if you guys think that this bodes well or not well.

Thanks again for your help!

When dealing with jobs that require clearances, having a paper offer is a very good thing. What they're telling you is likely true. Companies that do that sort of thing have to get a huge amount of things in line before they can make a formal offer, which often takes several months. If anything related to the offer changes before it's made, they have to restart the hiring process. But once you have the offer, the bureaucracy works for you. They've already decided you're good enough to hire, the paperwork is done on your clearances, and they don't want to go through the process again if they lose you. Their BATNA is extremely lousy.

BTW, don't hold it against the other companies that didn't get back to you in a timely fashion. They're likely victims of the same bureaucracy, and given the nature of employment today, you're likely to work with or for them at some point in your career.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 11:49

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Spikes32 posted:

I found out yesterday that I'm going to be converted from a temp contract worker to FTE in the next month to two months. I found out due to needing to RSVP for a company retreat in June, which the other temps were not invited to. Obviously I have less negotiating power in this situation as I'm already working for them. However they low balled me majorly on the temp rate (80% of my previous pay, I was 5 months unemployed and wanted work in my field again). The other part of this is I would much rather work for a related, but distinctly different department, and I wouldn't want to work in this department for more than another year. So even if I take the FTE, I still may start looking for other work especially if they low ball me again. Anyone have any tips for me as I approach this process?

They've already decided to hire you, you're now negotiating price. Most companies do temp-to-hire to screen potential employees, so however long you've been temping is how long it takes them to screen a new employee. Take that time period and multiply it by your income over that time. Add overhead (ballpark 30% if you're a direct temp or 70% if you were hired through a temp agency). Then divide by the attrition rate (the percentage of temps who get hired full time). That's how much time and money it would take to replace you. For example, if you've been a direct temp working full time for 6 months (1000 hours) at $12/hour and the attrition rate is 50%, it'd take ~$30k and 6 months to replace you. That's a respectable BATNA and solid negotiating leverage. Plug in your numbers and see how it compares to their proposed salary.

One other piece of advice: Try to figure out who is advocating hiring you. If it's your department manager, asking for an immediate transfer out of his department might not be in your best interests. You'd probably still get the job, but you'd be stuck working for someone who knows you don't want to work for them. If it's someone higher in the chain of command of both departments (VP of Operations, for example), getting an immediate transfer will likely be pretty easy if you ask.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 12:04

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Hughmoris posted:

I want to say thanks to everyone in this thread. I've poked my head in here a few times to learn a little because I've never negotiated a salary, I've always took whatever was offered.

Well, today I received an offer for a job I REALLY wanted. Instead of accepting the first offer like I wanted to, I told them I would review their compensation package and get back to them. After reviewing this thread for tips, I came back and asked for an additional $2.40/hr. They said they would have to review it with their team.

I sweated bullets all day worrying I screwed up my offer. However, this evening they came back and offered me an extra $2/hr. An extra $2/hr just for asking! Thanks again.

Congrats! That's $4k/year. You could take a trip to ski the Alps for a week or buy everyone in this thread a beer. I strongly advise the latter.

# ¿ May 16, 2014 23:26

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Iron Lung posted:

How much leverage do I actually have? They know my current hourly rate obviously, I don't really have any other job prospects, but looking at the other candidates, they would be hard pressed not to hire me. Obviously I need to wait for an actual offer, but I feel like my boss over-played her hand by revealing the total salary range to me. I'd actually be fairly ok with any of the salaries mentioned because of the opportunity the job is, but obviously want to make the most I can. I'm not too worried about asking for too much, I don't think they'll balk and just say "nevermind, we're going with someone less qualified" as they've had trouble keeping someone in this position for a variety of reasons that won't be a problem for me. If offered something in the low 30s would it be crazy to ask for $40k since my skills fairly commensurate with someone at that level and hope for something in the mid-high 30s? I'm hoping the range stays the same since the position did have a title change after the last person left but I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow/the offer to see about that. I should probably start applying at other jobs in case this doesn't work out huh?

We'll start in reverse. Yes, apply for other jobs. There is no down side. The most likely outcome is you gain more info on how much you should be paid.

Internal promotions are always tricky. They know how much you make, you know your value to the company, and you both are invested in maintaining a good relationship. You need to divorce yourself from the process. Take the time to make an independent assessment of how much your specific skill set in your industry and location is worth. Don't start from their offer ranger, but rather start fresh and do an honest evaluation. Don't compare the value of $32k/yr to $40k/yr, but rather the offer, if you get it, to how much you could make by switching organizations. If you ask for $40k, it should be because you can justify your worth to the company, not because it's the top of the range.

# ¿ May 20, 2014 03:59

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

TheSpartacus posted:

I like the idea of phrasing the conversation around the offer instead of just benefits, and will do so!

You can also just ask if the offer is negotiable. Anything other than a firm "No," means it is. For entry level positions, it frequently isn't, but I cant see any harm in asking. I'd recommend not playing hardball, though.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2014 12:00

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

Asking if you can negotiate immediately puts the conversation on the wrong foot: "can I have your permission to get more money". The worst that will happen is they say their original offer is final.

No, the worst that could happen is HR says they'll get back to TheSpartacus (TS) in a couple days and then hires someone else in the mean time. It's unlikely and a pretty lovely thing to do, but it happens. Also, if HR isn't organization that actually approves the salary, then asking them for a number isn't terribly productive. Stating that you're not satisfied with an offer and stating a higher salary expectation can be construed as rejecting the offer. I wouldn't do that if my BATNA was as awful as TS's seems unless I had reliable information that the company is open for negotiations beforehand.

You always seem to take the position in this thread that there's no harm in asking for more money at every step, but my own personal experience is different, particularly for entry level employees. I believe it's critically important to understand the circumstances and agents involved before telling people what to do. What's TS's BATNA? What's the company's? How likely is the company to bump their offer 10%? How likely is it that they move on to their next candidate? Where does TS sit on the list? If he's the last acceptable candidate and several other people have rejected the offer, than his leverage is good. If other candidates were skipped because they asked for more money, his leverage is terrible. Is his prospective employer the type who hires 10 new employees hoping to retain 5 of them after a year? Does TS even have a real signed offer in hand or has all this been conveyed by voice?

As an aside, I don't appreciate the straw man argument. Asking if an offer is negotiable is way to gain information about it without committing yourself, it's not asking permission.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2014 19:28

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

FrozenVent posted:

It's a great opportunity for the other person to say "No, it's final!" which if they have any smart about them, they will do.

A better way to phrase the question is "Do you want me to accept this lowball?"

Someone is just as likely to say an offer is final if you ask for more money as they are if you ask if the offer is final. Your phrasing of the question is quite confrontational and only going to make the other party defensive. Negotiations don't have to be strictly adversarial, particularly if it's in your best interest to maintain a professional relationship with the other party if you're successful in your negotiations.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2014 19:49

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

FrozenVent posted:

I was making a joke.

If you ask someone if you can negotiate, they will tell you no if it's not in their interest for you to negotiate. Open with a counter offer, don't ask for permission first.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but my experience has been quite different. At most large organizations, mine included, HR is extremely unlikely to be the person authorized to negotiate salary and will usually not commit to any particular course of action without consulting with the hiring manager. As a result, they won't actually say "No, the offer is final" unless it has been pre-coordinated as non-negotiable. In either case, you get valuable information before you actually commence negotiations with the hiring manager.

Like I said before, there's a difference between asking HR if the offer is negotiable and asking the hiring manager for permission to negotiate. A huge part of negotiations is understanding who you're talking to and what authority they have to approve or reject your objectives.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2014 20:07

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Wow. I guess all of you have had vastly different experiences than I have had, in both being hired and hiring people.

I do want to re-iterate a few points though:
-Making a counter offer in general negates the previous offer.
-HR and the hiring manager are two separate entities
-The worst thing that can happen is that the offer is retracted, not that they say its non-negotiable

All I'm advocating is the TS evaluate his own situation and throwing out an alternative course of action to gather more information before he negotiates with the person actually empowered to grant what he wants. If TS is completely unwilling to accept even a tiny chance of the offer being retracted, then making a counteroffer isn't necessarily in his best interests, and that's an evaluation that only TS can make.

Telling people to always make a counteroffer is like telling people to put their retirement savings in stocks because stock prices always go up. It's generally proven true over the long run, but the unique situations where it isn't can really bite you.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2014 20:30

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

First, it sounds like you've had some really lovely hiring experiences, and that sucks.

That said, and in response to your bullets:
- Making a counter-offer doesn't negate the original offer unless your counterparty is negotiating in bad faith, in which case you're doing yourself a favour by discovering that in advance. If someone pulled that on me, I'd feel relief at having dodged a bullet.
- Your second point is correct, but assuming the company isn't dysfunctional, they will talk to each other. I agree that the tone of your discussion needs to be tailored to who you are talking to and that you should seek to discuss with the decisionmaker, but my earlier comment was in response specifically to your suggestion that you should ask if you can negotiate. This is bad and should be called out as such. You gain literally nothing that you can't gain by asking more directly for a better deal and risk losing what little leverage you might have.
- This is technically correct, but I have not personally experienced this in 8+ years of negotiating on both sides of the hiring table. I do not know of any person to whom this has happened either. I do however know of a great number who have done better for themselves by negotiating so, on balance which do you think I am going to advise people to do?

I have had some really lovely hiring experiences, including having an offer withdrawn during negotiations, and I know I'm not unique in that experience. The correct approach isn't always the same thing, but rather dependent on the person's individual situation.

Let's look at a hypothetical scenario. Al and Bill are roughly similar in their experience, with the exception that Al has been unemployed for a year, while Bill has a job making $85k/yr. Both Al and Bill get an offer for $90k. Both Al and Bill assess that there's a 50% chance they'll be able to negotiate a $5k bump to bring their pay up to the industry standard, but in doing so, there's a 5% chance the offer will be rescinded.

For Al, this means that his EV for negotiating is .5 * $95k + .45 * $90k + .05 * $0k = $88k vs. $90k for not negotiating.
For Bill, the EV is .5 * $95k + .45 * $90k + .05 * $85k = $92.25k.

Mathematically, Bill should negotiate and Al should not, even though the offer is the same for both of them. If I was Al, I'd take a negotiating approach that would minimize the likelihood of the worst outcome, which might include asking if the offer is negotiable before counter-offering, even though doing so reduces the likelihood of receiving the salary increase.

If I were Bill, I'd take the approach of maximizing the best outcome, because I might not be willing to change jobs for only a $5k/yr raise. I'd likely play hardball and tell the company that I wouldn't entertain any offers below $95k, because $90k simply isn't enough to make me leave a job I like.

This is all a made up example, but I hope it illustrates the point I'm trying to make: People should make an assessment of their situation before counter-offering. Most of the time the correct answer is to make a counter-offer, but not always. Telling people to counter is generally good advice, but it isn't always the best advice.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2014 23:34

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

I guess my point is that the risk of having an offer rescinded is much lower than 5%, meaning the calculus ends up almost always favouring negotiations. I agree that an experienced unemployed person is going to be a bit more conservative, but for TC, who I think we're still talking about, your BATNA as a student isn't really zero, it's some other equivalent job in roughly the same salary range, time-lagged by a few months.

We can argue about the percentages, but my point is that TS needs to do his own assessment. In my case, the hiring manager had his budget cut while I was negotiating, and I was SOL. In TS's case, the #1 applicant might decide he wants the job after all. Or the hiring manager might go to the VP-Operations and try to get more budget to grant his request and be denied, and after trying to explain why he needs more money to hire someone who wasn't the first choice, might not be as gung-ho to hire the #2 or #3, or whatever TS is. Again, I agree that the it's highly unlikely that the offer gets rescinded, but the odds aren't identically zero, and in some circumstances, minimizing the worst case scenario is the best course of action.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2014 01:37

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Bisty Q. posted:

Jesus, dude. You are wrong. Having an offer rescinded is earth-shatteringly rare. You've poured about 10,000 words into this thread to exhaustively argue with everyone that it is something you should even consider. You shouldn't. The chances of them going "oh, you asked for another $5K? No, and also gently caress you!" are so small it is literally not worth considering.

Any company that you should ever entertain working for would, at the worst, say "Nope, sorry, offer is firm" and not go "HEY MAN gently caress YOU WE'RE JUST GOING TO GO WITH OUR FIRST CHOICE WHO WANTED THE SAME AMOUNT AS YOU." I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but the odds of any professional company rescinding an offer are quite literally zero for all intents and purposes that don't involve fraud.

They decided on you for a reason (and made you #1, not #2 or 3) and ultimately nobody involved really cares if you get an extra $5K or not. Really. The recruiter doesn't get the difference added to their check. The hiring manager doesn't get a bonus for keeping salary low.

You are making a lot of assumptions here, and there's no need to swear in all caps. Stop it with the straw man arguments as well. My advice isn't to negotiate softly or "Ask for permission," it's to realistically assess the situation. Ignoring the worst possible outcome, even though it's statistically unlikely, is terrible advice. That's like telling people not to buy life insurance.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2014 10:57

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Not Grover posted:

It seems like the majority of people here are in/seeking corporate type jobs/offerings. Does anyone have much experience in negotiations in healthcare or vet med or small business environments? I'm a fresh graduate, and the common advice is to take what you can get and count yourself lucky.

I have heard a lot of stories about small business people taking offense in a very personal way to any kind of salary negotiation (which, especially after reading through the thread, seems like an indicator that it'd suck to work there anyway), but I think there must be some kinds of considerations/tips for trying to negotiate in those kinds of settings, I would assume. I know that as an entry level person I don't really have leverage, but looking forward, I hope that things are less grim.

Kalenn Istarion's advice is pretty spot on.

I'd add that sole proprietors and small businesses tend to put a higher emphasis on personal relationships, both for hiring and determining pay. Having an existing relationship with the the owner, i.e. he's your dad's friend or you interned with his company, is a good deterrent against being lowballed.

I'd also consider why the company is hiring. If it's because a long term employee retired and you're replacing them, you can more confidently ask for more money, since a large chunk of budget just became available. Alternatively, if the small company is expanding, asking for salary growth as the company expands might be a better strategy.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2014 11:15

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

Statistically, you shouldn't buy life insurance

Touche.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2014 11:20

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Unseen posted:

I'm a software engineer working at a defence contractor. The industry has begun to contract and we've had multiple rounds of layoffs. On top of that we just lost a huge contract so the future is even more bleak. I'm young and cheap so chances are I won't get laid off any time soon. However there's no exciting work now or in the future and I'm bored. I make 68k and have about 3 years software experience.

I just interviewed at a medical devices company. I asked for 75k. They offered me 63k initially but I negotiated. Their counter offer was 65k with a 3k bonus. Their benefits are a little better and there's amazing opportunity for learning and career growth. They also have crazy perks like free flight lessons.

I'm probably going to accept. I'm not as happy with the salary.

Would any of you take a small paycut to work where you can learn a lot more? Should I continue to push them up to 75k?

I'm in defense, and I wish I had gone into med tech instead, FWIW. The future certainly is brighter there, particularly with the current trajectory of defense spending. You may be better off taking a pay cut to work an industry with better growth prospects, but I don't think you're at that point yet. You're in a very strong negotiating position. By upping their original offer, they've signaled how much they want you. Do they know your current salary? This might be a good opportunity to share it with them and indicate you need to make a lateral move salary-wise. You may or may not be successful in getting a better offer, but given their investment in you already, I'd guess it's likely. Good luck!

# ¿ Jun 5, 2014 14:22

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

I think your advice about negotiating tends to be more harmful than helpful when applied in the broader economy. Maybe it works well in defense contracting, but overall the positions you have consistently advocated tend toward these behaviors:

1) Be deferential to authority, treating employers as authorities. Do not engage employers as equals in an economic transaction.
2) Be overly open and honest, even in the case of significant pre-existing information asymmetries.
3) Eagerly accept opportunities as you may not get another one.

I don't agree with this at all. I strongly object to all three characterizations, and have absolutely no idea how you came up with them. I strongly advocate negotiating with decision makers on a peer basis rather than intermediaries. I strongly and repeatedly have advocated mitigating information asymmetries rather than volunteering information. Furthermore, I only suggest accepting opportunities if you are completely unwilling to accept the worst possible outcome in opening negotiations. It's odd that you'd quote me advising someone to press the issue further negotiating for more pay and then make those points. I'm honestly confused.

Quite frankly, I find your advice to be completely without nuance. Your style of negotiations seems uniquely suited to negotiating from a position of strength, and repeatedly fails to take into consideration the individual's situation. In general, most people would be well advised to follow the strategies you lay out, but in some unique situations, following your advice can be quite harmful.

swenblack fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 5, 2014

# ¿ Jun 5, 2014 16:55

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

You're right, and I'm a crazy person. I am sorry.

I must have confused you with a different poster. I really strongly disagree with your recent posts regarding TheSpartacus' situation, and I disagree with your recommendation that Unseen disclose his salary. But after reviewing posts in this thread I was being a total dickbag and you don't deserve any dickbaggery.

I do take a one sided approach in this and the raise megathread, and there is a simple reason for that. Anyone who's asking for advice in a negotiating megathread is going to be most helped by being urged on toward confident and aggressive attitudes and behavior. More than half of effective negotiating has nothing to do with reality, and everything to do with presented attitude. Being ready to ask for more, knowing that you can pursue other opportunities, and being very stingy in revealing any amount of your hand all play into that.

I'm certainly more selectively aggressive than you are. As for Unseen's situation, I assessed that he's at in impasse, given that he's aggressively negotiated and gotten counteroffers, but they're unwilling to meet his demands. Revealing that his BATNA is better than the proposed settlement is a textbook way to restart negotiations, and gives him a viable third option for consideration in addition to accepting the deal or walking away. If I decided I'd accept the job if they matched my current salary, I'd share my BATNA to demonstrate resolve as an intermediary step to walking away. I take a slightly different tack than you on information. I believe it's a tool to be used when appropriate, rather than a treasure to guarded.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2014 12:45

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Not Grover posted:

At the end of the day, I want this job - it's

super close to where I live, as opposed to moving halfway across the state

a place that I worked for 2 months while I was in school, so I'm relatively comfortable with the existing staff

the only offer I've gotten in the ~month since I've graduated

my BATNA is going back to a minimum wage retail job, though they don't know that.

I feel like I will be on board with whatever they offer me, but I don't feel great about never even discussing it. One last thing is that I have heard it's a common practice to hire a fresh tech at a slightly lower hourly rate when they first get out of school, and then bump them up when they pass their boards and get licensed. I don't think they have any intention of trying to screw me on pay, and I have a decent idea of what my classmates are being/have been offered. It just makes me really uneasy that it didn't get discussed.

It is amateurish for the manager to not discuss the actual salary, but it's not uncommon, because it probably wasn't his responsibility to set the pay. He probably (falsely) assumes you're aware of the pay structure because you're already part of the team. A couple quick thoughts in no particular order:
1. 1 offer in 1 month is a fairly high rate, particularly for people with little or no experience
2. I can't speak intelligently about vet med, but in a lot of other industries, pay raises at the 6 to 12 month point contingent on industry standard certifications are the norm.
3. Get your compensation plan in writing, including bumps for getting certified.
4. If your pay is significantly lower than your peers, you should negotiate for higher pay. If they balk at a higher salary on day one, try to negotiate higher defined raises for milestones in your first year, i.e., boards/licensing. Get it in writing.
5. You have a huge advantage because you're already part of the team, as evidenced by the manager's own statements. This means their BATNA is weak. They've already identified a person they want to hire into their practice--You! Their BATNA is to take a gamble on an unproven employee, which is something that no small business ever wants to do.

# ¿ Jun 16, 2014 23:14

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Not Grover posted:

I spent some time asking around with my peers and heard responses back in the 12.50 range for day practices, so that does make me feel like I am right to be disappointed with that initial offer. Before I send a response back, I'd like to run it by the thread so you can tell me if it sucks or not.

I feel that it's kind of bare as far as justifications for increased pay, but the hard facts are that I don't have a lot of relevant experience in critical care and I am a recent graduate. I was a top student in school and worked as a TA in the school clinic teaching other students in the year behind me all of the small animal clinical skills and stuff, so while I'm not a salty veteran, I do feel that my skills are better than the majority of my freshly graduated peers. I don't know how to get that across without sounding arrogant, especially since there is a perception in vet med that school doesn't teach you poo poo when it comes to being in practice. Any advice or ideas?

KI and DE are spot on, in my opinion. It's worth at least trying to get more money, because their BATNA is quite poor (they're not going to get someone they know is as good as you for $11/hr). If they won't play ball, follow the rest of DE's advice. Don't under-estimate how important it is to establish yourself in your industry with a year or two of experience, but don't subject yourself to substandard pay for any longer than is necessary to get certified/licensed and paid elsewhere. Also go back to page one of this thread and re-read DE and KI's advice on not letting your current salary anchor your long term pay. It's particularly relevant for people in situations like your own when you transition to your next job.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2014 03:52

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Hand of the King posted:

Can someone please give me advice on how to tell a company to hurry up with the hiring process to see where I am (and if they would make me an offer) because another company just offered a job to me?

Dear [Hiring manager],

I'm very excited to work for [your company], but I have another offer with a deadline of [whenever]. Unless I receive an offer from you before the deadline, I plan on accepting their offer. Please let me know as soon as is reasonable if you still think I'm a good fit for your team.

Thanks,
HotK

They'll appreciate you being professional and to the point. If I received an e-mail along these lines from someone I planned on hiring, I'd print if off, take it to the VP-Operations, and tell her to get off her rear end and authorize the budget for the hire. If it wasn't someone I planned on hiring, I'd write them back immediately and tell them to take the other offer.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2014 04:02

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Lexifantastik posted:

This may be the wrong thread for my question, but here goes: I've just accepted an offer for a new job. It's better hours, in a better location, and seems a lot more interesting than my current job. However, the new company is a cash-poor startup at the moment (though I think they'll be successful-it's not an internet startup or anything too crazy). The base salary is roughly the same as my current job, but there's no bonuses or overtime, which some years almost doubles my salary at the current job. I hate overtime, which is the biggest reason I'm leaving.

My current employer seems to be in denial that I'm leaving. I'm well-liked, and my department head wants to talk Monday about other jobs in the company that I could have because he's "not going to let me quit". I think I'm well past negotiating, since I already accepted the other offer. So what do I say? I'm going to miss the extra money, and while he may be able to offer a job with a little less overtime, it will probably still be bad, and it will certainly still be far less exciting than the startup. I have a lot in savings, so I don't really need the current salary. Any advice?

It seems like you've already decided on your course of action. I'd add though, that start-ups often implode for any number of reasons. Even if they're well run, the long term success rate is well below 50%.

I'd hear the pitch, but emphasize that you're leaving because you want the chance to be part of a team creating something new and that you're in the financial position to do so with the new company. Tell him you've enjoyed working there and offer to help in the transition however you can so long as it doesn't impact making a good first impression at the new company. The idea is that if the start-up implodes, you can go back confidently to your old company without looking like you're slinking back with your tail between your legs.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2014 19:27

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Hollis Brown posted:

Looking for some advice. I verbally accepted a defense related job for 68k/year 6 weeks ago. First "real" job since graduating with MS in materials engineering. I had no internships so it was a struggle to even get this offer.

I have been getting cleared by the government during the past 6 weeks. After starting the clearance I've been working at a small engineering consulting company making ~50k/year. In the 6 weeks I have done a budget and realized the cost of living increase for the defense job is pretty undesirable (NY vs Texas). I know I am dumb for not having done this before.

I know it's pretty douchey to say, thanks for spending 10K to clear me but I am looking for 5% more? I am trying to evaluate if the leverage that I have as a result of their investment is morally wrong. I consider myself a decent person and realize that the company in good faith has already invested in me and I, in good faith, have verbally accepted. I am considering trying to negotiate from the standpoint that I will basically have completed an internship by the time clearance comes in.

Edit: I think the reason i'm thinking of trying to negotiate is that I've had 6 weeks to think about it and think i'm being underpaid. I don't think it's the end of the world but I obviously would like to make more.

Woo-hoo! Finally a question I'm more qualified to answer than DE or KI. In this industry, being cleared is your ticket to job security and a significantly higher income, so long as the clearance is an SCI. Renegotiating after your clearance has been initiated would be a significant act of bad faith. Unless you're expected to live in downtown Manhattan, your salary is actually on par with industry average for someone with a MS and no experience. Here in DC, the market is $65k-$70k for someone with your skill set.

If you're serious about defense, your best bet is to get cleared (check), get your MS (check), grind out four year of experience, and change companies. At that point, you're worth $100k-$120k. The barrier to entry depresses entry level salaries, but it works out for you if you can make it through.

All that being said, you still have some knobs to turn, and the company has sunk considerable costs in to you already. I wouldn't reopen negotiations on salary, but relocation expenses are fair game unless you've signed something saying otherwise. Another possibility would be educational benefits or a pre-defined raise when you get your SCI.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2014 04:07

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

FrozenVent posted:

Yeah, gently caress these guys.

In other news, when considering a job offer, how should one assess the value of the employer having a defined benefit pension?

That's an extremely complex question. How long does it take to get vested? How big is the company? How long are they likely to remain a solvent company? What is the regulatory environment in your state? How likely are you to want to work for that company for your entire career?

I personally believe defined contribution plans are more beneficial to a majority of private sector employees, based on the observation that our economy has fundamentally shifted towards more flexibility for both employers and employees in the work force. This isn't a political statement, rather an acknowledgement of our current situation.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 04:30

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

QFT

Also you failed to seize on an opportunity to wield good negotiating posture. Your posture will have significant consequences on how much the party you are negotiating with flexes. Consider the pressure the HR manager feels between:

"That offer is unacceptable, and you are unwilling to negotiate. Thank you for your time."

vs

"Please send me the full details of what you are offering in writing."

I also agree that the way Appachai is being treated is reflective of the corporate culture. I'm going to disagree, though, that taking a hard line with HR is an effective course of action. In my experience, when HR takes a hard line, it's because they aren't authorized to modify the terms of the offer. In that light, being polite and non-committal is actually the best course of action. Until they have a written counter-offer or rejection, their hands are tied. And you shouldn't respond to a verbal offer with a written counter, so asking for a written offer is probably what I would have done in the situation. Although, I wouldn't have tried negotiating with HR verbally. Not that Appachai did anything wrong, I just think it's a waste of time.

In these circumstances, I am constantly evaluating whether the person I'm negotiating with is empowered to modify the terms of the offer.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 04:42

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

asur posted:

Maybe someone else can chime in here as this may be bad advice, but I think I would send an email to the HR person saying that the offer is not acceptable and the follow up with the COO. You don't have anything to lose by talking to them and they specifically said they wanted you. I've yet to see a company where high level executives can't override an HR decision if they choose to. Of course, you may want to consider what the lowball offer means in terms of raises and working conditions, but I don't really see a downside to at least following up.

I'd only escalate if it was an impasse. HR only demonstrated an unwillingness to negotiate verbally, so I don't think it's necessary yet. If Appachai gets nowhere with negotiating via written counteroffers, than escalating is better than walking away.

In my experience however, a written rejection of an offer from a Ph.D. level candidate gets elevated to the COO immediately, so a direct appeal to the COO isn't necessary.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 05:04

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Appachai posted:

Just an update: I talked to the COO on the phone about the offer. She said that due to the corporate guidelines she couldn't change the salary, but she had some leeway in other areas. She gave me a 10K signing bonus. I think you guys are right about not negotiating with HR. The HR person probably didn't have the authority to change anything.

I'm sorry, but this is total BS. Who writes the corporate guidelines? That's right. The COO.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2014 00:17

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

You've already said most of what you should say in your post:

"Thank you for the offer. I'm really interested in this position but what you're offering for salary is below market rate for a certified technician. I'd be prepared to sign on if you could revise your offer to $x."

X should be something above the number you want / need to move so that you have room to concede gracefully if they push back. You have a strong position because you know exactly what you're going to get in your current job.

I'm with Kalenn on this one completely. In addition to a strong BATNA, Not Grover seems to be quite good at getting offers.

# ¿ Aug 18, 2014 03:17

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Not Grover posted:

Well, to be perfectly honest, it didn't go as well as I'd have liked it to. I sent back an email asking for something closer to (+8k), and they called me, put me on speaker with the hospital and office administrators, and started negotiating. Frankly, I choked a little bit. They balked at my high end, and I would have been surprised if they hadn't, but if I were more experienced and better on the spot, I could have gotten them to (+4-5k) I think. As it is, they offered (+2k) with verbal promises of an increase after 90 days based on some nebulous criteria (how well I was "living the culture" of the practice?). and I elected to stay where I am and resume searching after licensure if I still want day shift or don't feel adequately compensated. So at the least, this was a valuable experience for me in learning/dealing with negotiations, and it was a big confidence boost on top of that to have gotten the offer. Thanks again for all of your replies, it's really helped a lot to have some guidance in an area where I've had minimal experience.

Wow, that's some high pressure negotiating. Good job on walking away when you didn't get a decent counter-offer. That takes a lot more courage than most people realize.

The negotiating isn't over, by the way. I don't see any harm in e-mailing them back and thanking them for the offer and that you would strongly consider applying again after you get licensed and can command a salary more in line with your experience and qualifications.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2014 23:01

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 06:11

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

So, after some back and forth the company decided that they couldn't get to the comp levels that someone of my experience would expect and so are going to hire someone more junior.

I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't find a middle ground as I liked the company, but not enough to take a 30% haircut in the hope that it would all work out someday.

Sorry, bud. Good work, though, putting yourself in the position where you didn't have to take the low-ball offer.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2014 04:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > How to negotiate offers?

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