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VitalSigns posted:Now sure sure, CEO Stephen de Blois of Norman DRO may have inherited the company from his great-great-grandfather who acquired the land by forcible expropriation of the local inhabitants and killed or drove off any who resisted, but that was a long time ago, and it's impossible to say now how much of Stephen's wealth was the fruits of aggression and how much was just the fair business value of the protection and law enforcement services offered by Norman DRO  quote:The power of enclosing land and owning property was brought into the creation by your ancestors by the sword; which first did murder their fellow creatures, men, and after plunder or steal away their land, and left this land successively to you, their children. And therefore, though you did not kill or thieve, yet you hold that cursed thing in your hand by the power of the sword; and so you justify the wicked deeds of your fathers, and that sin of your fathers shall be visited upon the head of you and your children to the third and fourth generation, and longer too, till your bloody and thieving power be rooted out of the land.
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Oct 6, 2014 17:25
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SedanChair posted:The parallel between praxeology and transubstantiation is a sound one. Most believers don't spend a lot of time on it, and may not take it literally, instead focusing on seemingly tangible things (cutting taxes/forgiveness of sins). But if you try to argue against it, you're a heretic.  I've always thought of the Austrian school more as offering precise and logical sounding explanations for things that do not work and never actually happen. I'm not sure what the best religious analogy for that is though.
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Oct 6, 2014 20:04
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Rockopolis posted:^^^Hail Hydra DRO! Bakunin also talked about Libertarian Communism, again as an alternative to State Socialism, but mostly in terms of the negatives of the State, rather than in terms of any prescriptive utopia. He draws parallels to organized religion in God and the State, and argues that Marx's idea for State Socialism would simply replace the stick used by the oligarchy to beat the proletariat with an identical one named 'The People's Stick' which does the same thing, a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. Instead he argues that the overall power of government, capital, and religion should be destroyed via an educated and self-organizing proletariat. As a philosophy it's basically bottom-up communism, similar to anarcho-syndicalism. In the real world you have all forms of human tribalism and the skeletons of existing power structures to deal with.
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Oct 6, 2014 23:22
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Caros posted:I normally don't do this, but its page 300 and this crazy fucker holds a place in my heart. I present to you, the most wackjob motherfucker I have ever seen on facebook:  usually claims that the sovereign rational rugged individual is the most important thing ever.For this guy, the 'gas' reaching its end point is the most important thing, even if the end point is a blighted hellscape. It's like some alternate universe version of fascism, where instead of the individual only existing to serve the state, the individual only exists to serve the gas. Some kind of market-fascism. Ohhh...
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Jun 24, 2015 04:51
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Yeah that one sounds more like Libertopia than anything. The city just doesn't have a lot of services, pollution is rampant, nobody lives very long, and it's just outright a dystopian hellhole but gently caress it, the city has the biggest number so it's the best!
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Jun 29, 2015 09:35
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To be honest I'd rather die in a car accident than have my life be planned out for me from 16 or have my childhood be a joyless series of compulsory oboe lessons and interview preparation; so maybe I'm not cut out to be a doctor anyway.
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Jul 5, 2015 15:10
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Rhodesia bad because state oppression, British South Africa Company and de Beers good because free market. But Rhodesia probably not all bad because fighting communists.
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Jul 12, 2015 22:03
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Caros posted:Libtards will frequently point to Russia with to many onions and not enough bread as an example of this, when in reality the issue there had less to do with bad calculations as it did with massive mismanagement.
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Jul 15, 2015 22:59
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Disinterested posted:Although most sane pro-capitalist people accept the idea of the 'tragedy of the commons'. Pre-capitalist countries/societies managed to run commons systems fine, especially before global marketplaces. Why would a medieval farmer put a billion cows out to pasture or cut down every tree on the common just because he could? Is he going to drive a billion cows to market and sell them? There's probably a market for a score of cattle tops within the distance he can walk to. The 'tragedy of the commons' has been used to justify some abhorrent beliefs too, like British welfare minister Lord Freud saying that people too poor to eat shouldn't be given free food, because "Clearly food from a food bank is by definition a free good and there's almost infinite demand." The poors would eat infinite food if you gave them the chance! People cannot be trusted to behave in a decent and trustworthy manner, except banks! The existence of communes and anarchist (real ones, not ) societies shows that limited commons can work when isolated from global capitalism, and also that global capitalism might be the tragedy, and not the commons system.
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Jul 15, 2015 23:54
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Disinterested posted:I think you're missing the somewhat simpler point I was trying to make, which is that even ordinary proponents of capitalism generally recognise the need for some regulating authority to enter the field at some point, in situations in which the market is bound to fail. There seems to be just as many people using the commons theory to be complete shits as there are using it to refute internet libertarians.
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Jul 16, 2015 00:11
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Disinterested posted:Every theory in political economy is an ideological battering ram but I'm not sure there is anything particularly edfying about your choice of quote, particularly since there doesn't seem to be any link between it and the 'tragedy of the commons' which is not, I think, what you think it is. I won't derail with that though, because the commons situation is a valid limit to capitalist libertarians, because everything they do is fixed within 'the market' and believing deep down that they can be the best at it. I don't believe it's a hard human limit though.
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Jul 16, 2015 00:33
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BreakAtmo posted:I'll be oversimplifying things here, but I think that the kind of personality that leads to someone following Libertarianism instead of laughing at it is not a personality that's very understanding of things like art. A lot of them are money-obsessed sociopaths. There's a reason libertarian comedy is... well... libertarian comedy.
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Jul 16, 2015 19:34
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Plastics posted:I do not believe labor can be "stolen" in our modern society (putting aside Underground actual slavery). You can choose to do or not do a job. There are factors that make jobs more or less Attractive or Necessary sure but that does not mean it is not a choice, that is just a fact of life. Arguably the phenomenon of land monopoly only exists by fiat in the first place by the will of the State, they grant titles and deeds conferring the ownership of the land from the State to the individual, so you could cut out both, not tax people based on their labor, but also make all land common. That's what Adam Smith proposed in his pamphlet Agrarian Justice, and Classical Liberal John Stewart Mill dipped into the idea too. It would be interesting to see how that would work out.
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Aug 7, 2015 23:04
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Pththya-lyi posted:An essay I've read (but can't find on Google right now) gives the classic example of the man who steals bread from a merchant to feed his starving family. The merchant has more than enough bread to meet her needs, so taking some of her bread won't threaten her life: the family's right to live trumps the merchant's right to have a lot of bread. But what if, rather than bread, the merchant had a bunch of Xboxes? In that case, the man would not be justified in stealing, because nobody needs an Xbox to live.
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Aug 7, 2015 23:15
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Plastics posted:It is true in and of itself but we all die anyway so on the largest scale it does not matter whether that is tomorrow or a hundred years from now. If you argue that we can all make rational choices throughout our lives, even if they may shorten it or reduce its quality, there is still one major choice that we have forced on us without our consent, that of our creation as a conscious being. To what extent should someone who has coerced another conscious agent into existence be held responsible for their welfare?
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Aug 8, 2015 12:48
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What is the standard libertarian stand on marriage anyway? It's a contract between two people, so that should make it good, but it's a contract that can only be validated by specific government employees, and wouldn't exist without the State, so that makes it bad?
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Aug 8, 2015 17:54
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A Human Lobster posted:And then in the 50s, when Betty Friedan started to whine about the plight of women, it’s like, the soldiers came home from the war, everyone started a family, the women pulled in from the factories because they wanted to have kids, and that’s when they got all oppressed.
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May 28, 2018 19:43
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Ratoslov posted:So is Jrod typical of libertarians in his newfound love of Jordy Pete? Or is this just a case of classic crackpot comorbidity?
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Jun 3, 2018 22:07
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Golbez posted:Yet they'll discard this because governments aren't "legitimate" controllers of land, whereas property owners are rightful kings. Or turn them all into anarchists calling for the return of the commons.
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Jun 5, 2018 15:22
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Third-worldism is such transparent revisionism. You can see what a trashbag ideology it is if you replace the class analysis with any other kind of group analysis. Like with race it becomes "if Black Lives Matter so much then why aren't you doing anything about all the black lives in Africa that are far worse off huh?  and I guess if you think about it maybe the transatlantic slave trade was a black liberation movement in the long run "Or with feminism it becomes "if you support women's lib, why don't you spend all your time fighting Islam, like me, a man that hates Muslims" or "but Sauuuuuudi Araaaaaabia *explodes into a pile of bad faith fedoras*". Which isn't to say that you can't help emancipatory movements across the developing world, but transfers between international capital and the developing world bourgeoisie aren't emancipatory.
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Jun 7, 2018 09:48
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Should have done the right degree then. Because what society really needs is a million underemployed CS grads posting libertarian memes at each other.
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Jun 18, 2018 17:28
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I forget where exactly but there are parts that talk about the "stain" of sin. Other parts talk about God punishing people's descendants for several generations. The combination got twisted into "dark skinned people are stained with the sins of their ancestors" somewhere along the way. That same theory means that the Semitic people are good though, which some of Peterson's fans might take issue with. Because of them being antisemites. There's also the story of the Tower of Babel, which is that different ethnicities must be kept separate otherwise they'll all speak one language and God will be pissed, which is popular among people who also hate pressing 1 for English.
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Jun 22, 2018 12:26
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Sound Insect posted:"Wouldn't it be cheaper to just put them in jail?" But mentioning that sometimes gets you on the idiot spiral of "well that's all the XBones and GameStations they have, it should be bread and water" logic, somehow mixed in with making prisoners work for the privilege of being in prison. And you don't have to worry about them being resentful and worse people when they get out of your hell camps, because just keep them in longer if they act up. This is very different to slavery and serfdom because...
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Jun 25, 2018 10:46
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JustJeff88 posted:but even I have to accept that no socialist/communist society has managed to endure the test of decades. You don't just make step one of your plan to better the exploited classes and then sit back, you have to keep up autonomous pressure from below at all times, otherwise it rapidly backslides. The idea that free markets (or slavery or divine rule of kings or any other thing) are just the 'natural state of things' and that any attempt to organize and change things is an artificial distortion is a pervasive lie to try to foil this.
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Jul 5, 2018 18:08
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SyHopeful posted:Marxism and environmental stewardship aren't mutually exclusive - arguably the one nation doing the most to combat pollution and climate change is the Marxist-Leninist state of China. 
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Jul 9, 2018 16:08
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OwlFancier posted:Do it with young tories as well, they all look like they could be anywhere from a really weird looking 18 year old to a 60 year old who is part amphibian.  I'm here in London where people behind me are having what is known as 'fun'. I do not approve. Thank you for listening.
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Aug 8, 2018 10:53
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But I thought anti-fascists and fascists were as bad as each other according to the Sargon of Akkad Make UKIP Great Again intellectual genius foundation.
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Aug 19, 2018 19:12
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OwlFancier posted:Sort of possibly on point if UKIP still has any libertarian weirdness to it, though given how many leaders it's gone through and the drop in membership it could be a loving posadist party at this point. I think they dropped most of the libertarian stuff when Eddie Hitler took over, but now Carl of Akkad and PJW are trying babby's first entryism maybe it'll shift back towards that.
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Aug 19, 2018 22:18
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OwlFancier posted:
The 'right to life' seems particularly odd in the context of Natural Rights, since in the long run in nature nothing has that.
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Oct 5, 2018 08:47
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That's the dilemma that caused almost all the classical liberals to fragment into either "which is why land is a special case, and may be taxed to redress imbalance  " or "which is why landed property is theft and should be held in common  " or "but but savages  "
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Oct 5, 2018 10:04
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BalloonFish posted:Full-on libertarians are fine with all sorts of bad poo poo being done to people, so long as it's not being done by anything that calls itself a state or a government. It can look and act exactly like one, but it can't be called one.
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Oct 5, 2018 20:42
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I'm impressed that they mostly stuck to actual abuses of power like the TSA or stop and frisk, despite it being so obvious between every line that they wanted to start screaming "I do not consent to the 8% sales tax unilaterally imposed on this pack of doublemint!"
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Nov 2, 2018 09:25
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They spoke out about the immorality of charity and food aid during the Irish Famine, so of course they have spicy British Empire takes.
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Nov 14, 2018 15:35
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OwlFancier posted:It can also be an ideology for people who have huffed their own capitalist farts for too long. Because it does follow as a fairly reasonable logical progression of a lot of capitalist propaganda. If you raise people in that environment they can end up buying the brochure rather than actually understanding how the system operates. A sensible capitalist will be a marxist, because marx describes accurately and comprehensively the nature of the employer/employee relationship, and can be just as readily applied as an instruction book for capitalists who want to stay that way. Marx obviously sides with the working classes in his writing, but his description and critique is accurate and thus has great value to a capitalist who wants to understand and perpetuate their position in society, regardless of its moral reprehensibility. If you believe all of those uncritically, libertarianism looks logical. And as a nice pathway into it, many of our governments in living memory, but especially around the 90s/00s end of history, are a shower of shits who run around banning stuff and starting wars purely for their own gain and not for any ethical reason, while capitalism is very good at keeping its head down during that process and saying "hey man I'm just about the right to buy and sell stuff *trillions of dollars in monopolism and illegal war profiteering rustle gently in the background*". Any critical examination of the priors and outcome of that position tends to lead the libertarian in question to either anarchism/libsoc or taking the Red Pill and going alt-right.
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Dec 19, 2018 16:06
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 So, in his Libertarian
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Dec 26, 2018 17:38
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Yeah but they just let murder happen because it profited them. Where's the profit angle on his 'liquidation' of 40 million people by poison gas and cremation? That's gonna cost someone a lot of money.
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Dec 26, 2018 18:24
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I'd imagine the whole "the only legitimate way to acquire land is to pay an agreed price for the deeds" thing might put them off given how most of it is just trading in stolen property. If you're a libertarian without an obsession with private ownership of landed property or industry then you're closer to Kropotkin or Bookchin than anything called libertarian itt
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Feb 13, 2019 22:06
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VitalSigns posted:If you read the whole piece, they do acknowledge some Native Americans farmed and had title to their property, but it was the minority and it was all the King's fault they got murdered anyway. Golbez posted:IMO, LaRouche is one of those truly uncategorizable people. He drew from all different kinds of political movements. But libertarian, probably not, if only because he was vehemently against the drug war. He took the term literally, in that drug traffickers were the other side in a literal war and thus were committing treason. quote:2. Law-enforcement methods must support the military side of the War on Drugs. The mandate given to law-enforcement forces deployed in support of this war, must be the principle that collaboration with the drug traffic or with the financier or political forces of the international drug traffickers, is treason in time of war. That's a good way to get yourself a Forever War, so I can see why they were enthusiastic to apply it post-9/11.Also a healthy lol at quote:The object is to eliminate every field of marijuana, opium, and cocaine, in the Americas, excepting those fields properly licensed by governments. I'm glad he lived long enough to see the proliferation of licensed recreational marijuana fields in several US states and the legalization of coca growing in Bolivia. 
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Feb 15, 2019 15:20
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That's why all 00s libertarians that didn't become anarchists tended to drift into the dark enlightenment, which became part of the alt-right.
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Feb 15, 2019 16:38
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Ron Jeremy posted:Libertarians traditionally have been those who were equally distrustful of the draft as well as civil rights for black peoples. Both of these were actions of the federal government, therefore statism is bad.
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Feb 15, 2019 21:03
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