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I get visited by a very kind older gentlemen every few days who proselytizes about Jehovah's Witnessing. I don't really have to heart to tell him that the odds of me being a convert to any religion is zero because he seems so sincere.  Today he disproved the trinity to me with quotes from the bible, seemed legit.
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May 28, 2014 08:57
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brick cow posted:You don't understand that you don't know the meanings of the "faith" and "fact". It's common cult behaviour to use everyday words and convolute their meaning so the members can't communicate or thing logically. I think the only point of divergence we have on the meaning of the word "know" is that I do not think that the evidence has to be readily communicable. If I was abducted by aliens and then returned to earth I would "know" they exist but I would not have the means to convince others the experience was real and probably wouldn't bother with trying. This does not mean I do not "know" it. The difference with my faith is that it is a UFO support group where others have had similar experiences. Of course both halves of my analogy look equally zany from the outside. I am okay with this. I need ot head to bed and I'm done with the thread so I apologize for not answering future questions and/or insults fully. It's not that I don't care it's just that I don't care enough. Bye.
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May 28, 2014 08:59
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:
Literally everyone is looking in the wrong direction.
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May 28, 2014 10:26
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Xenocides posted:So supernatural occurrences are more plausible as long as they happened a long time ago. I have heard this argument before but I have never heard a good reason for it. Got one? I have one, everyone has a recording device nowdays and hack conmen are way easier exposed because of it
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May 28, 2014 10:54
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swampland posted:I have one, everyone has a recording device nowdays and hack conmen are way easier exposed because of it 'Miracles' also have taken a nose dive once the camera was invented.
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May 28, 2014 12:25
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Ethan_Alan posted:(most mormon churches exclude gays from practicing at all) This is not true. I won't speak to "all" because there are bad apples in every crowd and it's not hard for me to believe somewhere in the middle of nowhere Idaho they have a sign on the chapel posted that says "no gays", but to say most of the Chuch excludes gays from participating at all is pretty off base. Console Role Player posted:Hey Xenocides. What's your church's stance on genocide and murder? The Church's stance on genocide and murder is pretty simple, "it's bad, don't do it." Why would he need to explain goatse to his bishop? We don't confess every single sin to the bishop.
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May 28, 2014 13:29
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Hey xenocide, are you a Utah member or out of state/country?
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May 28, 2014 14:33
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naem posted:It was the doll where a pagan Antichrist mystery cult claimed to be Christian oh come on now it's not even that original. joseph smith just cribbed from the other itinerant camp preachers he ran into in the burned-over district then added a dash of freemasonry to make it look fancy for the rubes mormonism is by far the least interesting of the cult groups to come out of that place
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May 28, 2014 15:25
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chaoslord posted:This is not true. I won't speak to "all" because there are bad apples in every crowd and it's not hard for me to believe somewhere in the middle of nowhere Idaho they have a sign on the chapel posted that says "no gays", but to say most of the Chuch excludes gays from participating at all is pretty off base. So the mormon church is friendly to the gay community now? Pretty sure they helped pioneer modern gay conversion therapy, and they still don't allow them in church leadership, which was my main point that you decided to ignore. Xenocides was doing the same thing, focusing on my name calling and pretending that was the focus of my post. Making fun of your dumbass moon god isn't the crux of my argument. Your treatment of women and gays is. So instead of dismissing our valid questions because we're being mean to you, how about you answer the questions we are asking? My guess it's because your answers don't fare too well in the face of reality and tolerance.
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May 28, 2014 16:20
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Remember that cheesy video they made you watch in seminary where black ooze is bubbling out of a VCR? It was supposed to be some ham-fisted way of saying how you shouldn't bring any impure thoughts and entertainment into your home and how technology is a den of iniquity. If that video were made today the VCR would be a computer and the monitor would be on SA.
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May 28, 2014 16:30
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Ethan_Alan posted:So the mormon church is friendly to the gay community now? Pretty sure they helped pioneer modern gay conversion therapy, and they still don't allow them in church leadership, which was my main point that you decided to ignore. Xenocides was doing the same thing, focusing on my name calling and pretending that was the focus of my post. Making fun of your dumbass moon god isn't the crux of my argument. Your treatment of women and gays is. So instead of dismissing our valid questions because we're being mean to you, how about you answer the questions we are asking? I picked out that sentence because it is something that is definitely not true. Pretty much everything else you said is up to "Well I think your church is bad and you should feel bad" vs "I think my church is great and you should be in it", which obviously isn't going to go anywhere. But, to hit it all in full. Ethan_Alan posted:But that's just it, isn't it? You don't have a hope in christ, because to you Jesus is a loving martian. Which is all well and good except you use word salad and oratory blandness to confuse people into believing that you're just another run of the mill christian sect, not the malignant tumor of society that you are. And since you can't understand how your otherization of native americans is discriminatory then let's move onto gays and women allowed in the clergy. Why does your church not only prohibit women and gays from church leadership (most mormon churches exclude gays from practicing at all), it also goes out of it's way to restrict the rights of gay people in broader society with legislation like prop 8. So, bit by bit. 1) We do have a hope in Christ, the whole set-up is named after him. 2) You say malignant tumor, I say Church. 3) Here is the part I'm sure you want to focus on. The reason I skipped over this is because it's a multipost argument that will end up going nowhere because it has happened literally a million times across the internet. You say women and gays are prohibited form church leadership. Then I'm going to point out that we have a Relief Society Presidency and a Young Women's Presidency that speak to us at General Conference and that they are very much a part of church leadership. Then you are going to say that those don't count because reasons, and also come back and say that you are talking about the general authorities of the church (seventies, apostles, prophets). Then I say that those positions are held by priesthood holders, and at this time God has restricted the priesthood to only males. Then you will say something about that being dumb or stupid or the Church being dumb or stupid and at that point all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say well that's how it is and that even if you dont think the general relief society counts as women leadership I can guarantee you the women who serve in those callings do think of themselves as part of the church leadership and they very much are, so we will just agree to disagree on that. For gays, I would say they are allowed to hold leadership in the church and the idea that they can't is silly. I've known multiple gay people in various leadership capacities in the wards they are attending. You will say you are talking about general church leadership. Then I will come back and say "Well it's done by revelation so I dont know why none have been called." Then you will probably mention they can't be bishops, and I'll reply with Bishops have to be married, and then you will say they are married, and I will say the Church is against gay marriage (and then I will personally say that I think if people want to get married, let them since (beyond the love, obviously) there are tax breaks which means, imo, the church should stay out of the civil definition of marriage) and then you will probably say something about how that's dumb and backwards and I will just shrug my shoulders again. Then you will probably bring up Africans because that is usually what happens and then I will point out that there is a seventy who is African and then someone will come in and say something about "there should be more" and then I just shrug my shoulders and say it's up to revelation, it's not like I get to pick them. Console Role Player posted:Remember that cheesy video they made you watch in seminary where black ooze is bubbling out of a VCR? It was supposed to be some ham-fisted way of saying how you shouldn't bring any impure thoughts and entertainment into your home and how technology is a den of iniquity. Being a convert, I never went to seminary, but I always wondered what kind of stuff they showed. Now I need to go find that video. chaoslord fucked around with this message at 16:55 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 16:52
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mormonism isn't any weirder than any other religion. christians believe god literally died. why mormons specifically catch so much flak doesn't make much sense to me. mormonism is weird though. true story.
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May 28, 2014 16:57
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chaoslord posted:I need to go find that video. If you find it please share it with the thread. I certainly couldn't find it. All I found was this: https://www.lds.org/manual/for-the-strength-of-youth-fulfilling-our-duty-to-god/entertainment-and-the-media?lang=eng Maybe you should question if SA is really the best place for you? I also really liked the one where that one teenager took off the very Roman looking "armor of god" and was promptly killed by Native American stereotypes.
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May 28, 2014 17:00
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Actually what I was hinting at is your terrible church's organization and that whole "revalation" bit. Like how you guys reconciled having black people in your clergy during the 70s, yet you still think that standing on the sidelines of lucifer's war is why they were cursed with blackness. Was there a 'revelation' saying was an incorrect assumption, or was it societal pressure that made you change? Same goes for your treatment of native americans. Which is what I told xenocides who's too goddamn stupid to understand that removing a cultures agency and dismissing their cultural history is racist. And as for the women, those groups you talk about being obedient to god and obedient to men. Not exactly empowering stuff. Of course yours is a church that was founded on polygamy and had to have a "revelation" on why that was bad in order for Utah to become a state. I could bring tithing into it, and how the mormon church doesn't pay taxes, yet imposes a tax on all its members through social mores (That means tithing is a social custom and you get shamed into doing it, btw). But please, keep telling us how you're "one of the good ones" and keep shrugging off the notion that you're part of an oppressive regime because you read about how there's a gay and black mormon, so discrimination is over! edit-they get flak because this is a religion that was founded by a certified and convicted con artist. At least christianity and islam came from the social activists jesus and mohammed. Ethan_Alan fucked around with this message at 17:10 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 17:06
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Ethan_Alan posted:But please, keep telling us how you're "one of the good ones" and keep shrugging off the notion that you're part of an oppressive regime because you read about how there's a gay and black mormon, so discrimination is over! I didn't say anything about how discrimination is over, but that's fine. Like I said in the lead in to that post, this isn't going to go anywhere.
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May 28, 2014 17:11
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May 28, 2014 17:17
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Ethan_Alan posted:edit-they get flak because this is a religion that was founded by a certified and convicted con artist. At least christianity and islam came from the social activists jesus and mohammed. yeah that jesus fellow sure wasn't a convicted felon or anything. and the apostles all died peaceful and normal deaths. they definitely weren't found guilty of anything and banished to strange islands or crucified upside-down.
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May 28, 2014 17:18
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I am open to listening to all religious views just to cover my bases and hoping for a free pass when 'judgement day' comes. I really hope it's not the Hare Krishna's that are right, or the Scientologists / Zoltar worshippers else I am hosed because I rag on those lunatics all the time.
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May 28, 2014 17:48
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The apostles deaths were metal as gently caress. They'd get tortured and still believe their bullshit, that's conviction. Jesus spoke out against predatory lending practices. Joseph Smith pulled some gold plates out of his rear end so he can marry his friend's daughters.chaoslord posted:I didn't say anything about how discrimination is over, but that's fine. Like I said in the lead in to that post, this isn't going to go anywhere. It's not going to go anywhere because you don't address any of this criticism. Why are you affiliated with an organization that you even admit to being discriminatory. Are you pushing for church reforms or speaking out against it's practices? Or do you just tow the line and when someone questions your beliefs you just handwave it away because you can't think critically.
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May 28, 2014 17:48
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Ethan_Alan posted:Joseph Smith pulled some gold plates out of his rear end so he can marry his friend's daughters. Don't forget the magic hat.
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May 28, 2014 17:49
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 And people think the yarmulke is gay.
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May 28, 2014 17:55
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It's a junk enhancer? Are they at least the finest silk available? Personally I would have them tailored to make them more trendy.
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May 28, 2014 18:00
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lol how dumb do you have to be to be mormon seriously, you have to be extremely stupid. completely gullible and delusional
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May 28, 2014 18:01
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Ethan_Alan posted:The apostles deaths were metal as gently caress. They'd get tortured and still believe their bullshit, that's conviction. Jesus spoke out against predatory lending practices. Joseph Smith pulled some gold plates out of his rear end so he can marry his friend's daughters. jesus and the apostles are literally convicted con men. whether or not they were conning people is still up for debate, but the guy literally claimed he was god. he said that. but regardless, it's all the same poo poo. and i'm sure there are social reform policies in mormonism too, and incidences of joseph smith being some form of tortured and not recanting, if i cared to look. it's all the same.
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May 28, 2014 18:03
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especially adult converts like glenn beck. i mean seriously, how desperate for acceptance into a community of weirdos do you have to be in order to convince yourself that even the first thing about mormonism isn't complete bullshit at least the people raised mormon can claim they didn't know any better, at least until they learn how to read and get an internet connection or library card. after that, no excuse
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May 28, 2014 18:03
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Killed a Girl in 96 posted:jesus and the apostles are literally convicted con men. whether or not they were conning people is still up for debate, but the guy literally claimed he was god. he said that. but regardless, it's all the same poo poo. and i'm sure there are social reform policies in mormonism too, and incidences of joseph smith being some form of tortured and not recanting, if i cared to look. I'd argue that a heretic isn't exactly a conman. Tithing and alms-giving didn't really start until christianity became recognized by the state (as far as I remember) so I don't think bilking people of money was Jesus and Co.'s game. The idea of being the son of god or whatever doesn't bother me, people can be crazy on their own time with their own dime. It's the whole "forced conversion" that is inherent in Mormonism that I find offensive, among other things. They retconned native americans into being israelites with no regard to their own histories' or to scientific fact. And they literally convert dead relatives in order to gain status in the afterlife. There is zero respect for other cultures/people in this cult. (where's your defense of that, chaoslord?) And Smith's crimes and convictions had nothing to do with the formation of his church, which is a huge difference between him and the apostles. It does paint Smith as having a history of lying and taking advantage of people who don't know any better. He's pretty similar to L. Ron Hubbard in that respect, which is why Mormonism should be treated like Scientology.
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May 28, 2014 18:14
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baw posted:at least the people raised mormon can claim they didn't know any better, at least until they learn how to read and get an internet connection or library card. after that, no excuse Even as a kid I hated it. In order to function in church society you gotta compartmentalize your brain whenever that nagging feeling of doubt creeps up. It's doubly worse when you're a teenager because your Mormon parents have all these expectations and hopes placed on you. It gets to the point where you just tow the line so as not to offend people. Then you bring it up to people you think are your friends and they totally turn it on you. "You have doubts? You have issues with the way thing are being run? Well that's your fault, Brother Smith, you need to work on your testimony because the church is good and the revelations of its leaders infallible." Thank god I wasn't a Utah mormon or by some point I would've had to resign myself to just live with it, hating everyone and secretly cursing the church and its leaders for ruining my life. No wonder medication and alcohol abuse is so goddamn high among church members. It's a cult. Pure and simple. And children being raised in this environment are being ABUSED. True story.
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May 28, 2014 18:27
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Ethan_Alan posted:I'd argue that a heretic isn't exactly a conman. Tithing and alms-giving didn't really start until christianity became recognized by the state (as far as I remember) so I don't think bilking people of money was Jesus and Co.'s game. The idea of being the son of god or whatever doesn't bother me, people can be crazy on their own time with their own dime. It's the whole "forced conversion" that is inherent in Mormonism that I find offensive, among other things. They retconned native americans into being israelites with no regard to their own histories' or to scientific fact. And they literally convert dead relatives in order to gain status in the afterlife. There is zero respect for other cultures/people in this cult. (where's your defense of that, chaoslord?) wouldn't native americans being israelites be a good thing? them being the chosen people and all? i can kind of see your point on how it disparages their culture, but i think there's an argument to be made about it adding to their history and all. im not going to make that argument though because i think both sides are kind of abstract and unprovable. it's also kind of a weak argument and more of a point than anything. i googled "do mormons convert dead relatives" and i got this quote "LDS leaders emphasize that the spirits of the dead must accept the baptism -- it cannot be involuntarily imposed. And Mormons are instructed to only baptize family members, particularly after Jewish genealogists discovered in the 1990s that 380,000 Holocaust survivors had been vicariously baptized. In response, the church imposed safeguards and spent $500,000 removing Jewish names from its baptismal registries. "With deepest respect to our Jewish friends, the church cannot abandon fundamental aspects of its religious doctrine and practice," the church writes on its website, "and it should not be asked to do so." baptizing holocaust victims is pretty wtf but it really seems like they have good intentions. i dunno, whatever man. i kind of don't care anymore. it still seems like mormonism is exactly how christianity would be viewed 2000 years ago, right or wrong as it is.
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May 28, 2014 18:29
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demonR6 posted:Don't forget the magic hat. The hat wasn't magical, it was the stone that he put into it. That the church STILL have according to Wikipedia. You would think they would Turin Shroud that poo poo and get it examined, but hey need those 10% tithes to build the next super mansion for the next elder in line.
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May 28, 2014 18:29
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Every stake patriarch I've ever met was an honest to goodness pedophile. And lots of em were racist to boot.
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May 28, 2014 18:36
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if oyu believe in god you be a clod
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May 28, 2014 18:40
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Killed a Girl in 96 posted:wouldn't native americans being israelites be a good thing? them being the chosen people and all? i can kind of see your point on how it disparages their culture, but i think there's an argument to be made about it adding to their history and all. im not going to make that argument though because i think both sides are kind of abstract and unprovable. it's also kind of a weak argument and more of a point than anything. The good intentions thing still removes their agency and classifies them as a sort of non-human. Like how back in they day it wasn't black people's fault they were inferior, and so they were pitied. They're not being treated as equals, and have no control over their destiny. and a mormon shouldn't be able to add to a native american's history/culture because he's not a part of it. It's about respect, and I don't think mormons have it for anybody. All their niceties are a facade. Reminder that Mitt Romney pulled his car to the side of the road and cried when he found out blacks were allowed into the church. He has no history of advocating for equal rights back then so I doubt they were tears of joy. I'm not defending christianity either, but this is a mormon thread and some mormon goon thought it was a good idea to open his mouth about a religion he follows but doesn't understand. Mormons shouldn't have as much influence as they do, because while christianity has splintered into different sects that don't advocate terrible policies, Mormonism started out lovely and then splintered into even worse sects. Plus the fact that they say they love jesus is laughably disingenuous. They'd get laughed out of the christmas pageant if they told people "Yeah I love Jesus, who was born in outerspace, not a manger, and was not a virgin, but had 4 wives". Mormons are the bronies of christendom.
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May 28, 2014 19:06
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Ethan_Alan posted:It's not going to go anywhere because you don't address any of this criticism. Why are you affiliated with an organization that you even admit to being discriminatory. Are you pushing for church reforms or speaking out against it's practices? Or do you just tow the line and when someone questions your beliefs you just handwave it away because you can't think critically. the funny thing is the modern mormon church and the 19th century version are almost two entirely separate entities. their current culture is pretty much a function of trying to fit into postwar mainstream american society (funnily enough the growth of las vegas had a lot to do with it as well). the church as it was when they were out there by themselves was like most settler areas: far more communitarian and borderline socialist. racist as all hell and ready to fight the us government at the drop of a hat, but still totally different from today's church which is more of a business than anything else, which again las vegas was a major catalyst for that change
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May 28, 2014 19:39
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Ethan_Alan posted:It's not going to go anywhere because you don't address any of this criticism. Why are you affiliated with an organization that you even admit to being discriminatory. Are you pushing for church reforms or speaking out against it's practices? Or do you just tow the line and when someone questions your beliefs you just handwave it away because you can't think critically. You said women and gays don't get leadership positions. I point out that they do. It's not what you are looking for, no, but the only thing you are looking for is for me to go 'welp, I guess I was wrong, it's all a sham'. What I'm doing in my ward to push for reforms does not matter because no matter what it is it won't be good enough for you and this thread isn't about what I'm doing anyway. Ethan_Alan posted:And they literally convert dead relatives in order to gain status in the afterlife. There is zero respect for other cultures/people in this cult. (where's your defense of that, chaoslord?). No, we don't literally convert dead relatives in order to gain status in the afterlife. My eternal destination has zero to do with how many baptisms for the dead I am a part of. If I did none or if I did a million, the only difference would be I'd feel a lot better about doing a million because I helped a million people out (potentially). And as far as my defense of it? When I was a Baptist, I thought it was pretty cool when my LDS friends told me about it. If I was right, it didn't matter that they wasted all their time reading my name and baptizing some dude because it wasn't real, and if they were right then my buddies were lookin out for me. If I wanted it. Because... Ethan_Alan posted:The good intentions thing still removes their agency and classifies them as a sort of non-human. Like how back in they day it wasn't black people's fault they were inferior, and so they were pitied. They're not being treated as equals, and have no control over their destiny. This isn't true either. We perform the ordinance, and they get to decide if they want to become members of the Church. We believe baptism is an essential ordinance, so we make sure everyone gets baptized. It's up to them, on the other side, to accept it or not. It's not a forced conversion.
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May 28, 2014 19:39
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lol who cares about the specifics of your dumb religion
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May 28, 2014 19:42
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Console Role Player posted:Remember that cheesy video they made you watch in seminary where black ooze is bubbling out of a VCR? It was supposed to be some ham-fisted way of saying how you shouldn't bring any impure thoughts and entertainment into your home and how technology is a den of iniquity. was this it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K61UADVD4VA
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May 28, 2014 19:44
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Xenocides posted:Your ability to tell a historical photograph from an inaccurate artistic depiction of something is truly amazing. The Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi posted:1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place. it's not just an "inaccurate artist's depiction," these are reflections of what Mormons truly believe happened. Are you going to try and convince us that every single church puts up that image of White Jesus and doesn't believe that this is a divinely inspired, realistic interpretation of his features? The whole Book of Mormon is divinely inspired writing, certainly the consensus is that these "artistic depictions" are similarly divinely inspired.
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May 28, 2014 20:18
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chaoslord, it's clear you've been drinking the kool-aid (lol get it? Mormons love white bread americana) for quite some time and you need help getting some outside perspective on this. The church is taking the names of people who had no ties to the mormon faith (the only tenuous one being that maybe one of their ancestors later converted and put their name in to be baptized at the temple) and BAPTIZING them via proxy in their elaborate temple ceremonies. If you're from the faith and you presuppose that your religion is the True and Correct One (tm) then this is fine and you're doing a service. If you're not of the faith and you find out somebody is baptizing your dead relatives in the name of their lord then it really sticks your loving craw. How dare you make assumptions about my relatives who you've never met before and really don't give two shits about either way. I've been to these baptism ceremonies, dude. I've performed them myself, and all we're doing is reading loving names on a piece of paper. Never mind that it's also disrespectful and doesn't acknowledge who these people were or their wishes after their deaths. Other people feel pretty confident about the religions they decided on too, man, and they don't need you coming around after they're dead and making light of their entire lives in the process. It's especially dreadful when they baptize holocaust Jews because THESE PEOPLE WERE BRUTALIZED AND KILLED because of their faith. And how much do you have to hate yourself to be openly gay and a member of the church? Do you walk around going 'I have problems, but through the Lord I'm working on them' all the time to appease your white hetero overlords, while being constantly told how monstrous and abominable you are and how if you have any hope for the next life you need to swear off sex and marriage? If these poor people had any respect for who they are they'd tell these pricks to gently caress off, but guess what, their balls were surgically removed or mutilated in some BYU facility in some hokey procedure that's supposed to cure the gay. I reiterate. Mormons are callous and sick people, and since you're a convert, chaoslord, I advise you to leave while you still have an easy way out. No, it was a cheesy church education video made sometime in the eighties. However, those teenagers' reaction to Mitt's totally well-thought out plan is pretty goddamn funny. Console Role Player fucked around with this message at 20:28 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 20:21
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Like I said, years before I was a member of the church, when I found out about the temple work I thought it was pretty cool. Didn't bother me in the slightest and I thought it was nice that they were going out of their way to try to get everyone a chance to be saved like that. When I was a Baptist, the thoughts of my LDS friends coming back around and doing that for me after I was dead did not, to me, make light of my entire life. The friends that I have that aren't members of the church that know about it think it's fine too, and like to make light of it, e.g. "Eh, doesn't matter what I do, when I die chaoslord's got my back". If it bothers you, well, nothing I'm going to say will change that. But not all non-members think of it as a terrible horrible thing (and, conversely, not all of them are as laid back about it as the non-members I know). And yes, if say the JW's (or whoever) started doing ordinances for those passed on, I wouldn't have a problem if my name ended up on one of those lists.
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May 28, 2014 20:37
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does it ever bother you that your entire dumb belief system is based on easily falsifiable bullshit that a 5th grader would laugh at? a 5th grader that wasn't raised in one of the communities of course
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May 28, 2014 20:47
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