I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

So knowing that Abbas is largely a Israeli stooge, how much can he bottle up Palestinians from going into full on resistance mode in the west bank?

# ¿ Nov 18, 2014 20:35

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 01:53

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Mondoweiss posted:

Settlers spit on Abu Khdeir family as they exit court; alleged killer refuses to enter plea
Israel/Palestine
Allison Deger on November 18, 2014 6 Comments
Yosef Ben-David, 29, accused ringleader in the murder and abduction of Mohammed Abu Khdeir. (Photo: Allison Deger)
Yosef Ben-David, 29, accused ringleader in the murder and abduction of Mohammed Abu Khdeir. (Photo: Allison Deger)
    

Today was more difficult than most trips to the Jerusalem District Court for the grieving family of the late 16-year old Mohammed Abu Khdeir, who was abducted and then burned to death in a nationalistic crime by Israeli right-wingers in July, just before the summer war in Gaza. Aside from an early winter rain, and slow progress in the murder trial, settlers spat on them as they exited the courthouse.

On the sidewalk a scuffle followed the Abu Khdeirs on their way home. Approaching their car, settlers recognized them; for Abu Khdeir relatives� faces have become synonymous with the on-going unrest in Jerusalem. The Israelis, a group of religious-nationalist youth, were also in court that day, but for an altogether different case .They allegedly accosted Palestinians. �They came after us,� said Amsam Abu Khdeir, 27, a cousin of the deceased. He stated that one of the Israeli-nationalists �spit on my cousin and then he said to the police, see the Arabs��

To Palestinians �Mohammed� conjures more than the name of the prophet. He is a child killed by vigilantism and racism cultivated by the state of Israel, a symbol of the unchecked violence Palestinians experience from anti-Arab extremists that was manifested last summer by throngs of rightists youths explicitly �hunting� for Arabs. And his death carries over to the more recent killings of four Palestinians in Jerusalem who were gunned down for the attempted killing, actual killing or suspected killing of Israelis.

Abu Khdeir�s alleged murderers were in court today for a second pre-trial. All three defendants were supposed to enter pleas. In the session the self-proclaimed ringleader of the group, Yosef Haim Ben-David, 29, refused to cooperate. His lawyer told the judge he could not give a statement on guilt on behalf of his client, as was the case in the last pre-trial in October. Today, the delay was because Ben-David is no longer speaking.

The two accused minors pleaded guilty on the charge of abducting Abu Khdeir from outside of his Shuafat home in East Jerusalem, but pleaded not guilty on the charge of murder. They claim that in the spirit of the moment Ben-David alone poured lighter fluid down the kidnapped youth�s throat, doused him in the chemical and then set him alight.
Relatives of Mohammed Abu Khdeir, Jerusalem District Court, November 17, 2014. (Photo: Allison Deger)

Relatives of Mohammed Abu Khdeir, Jerusalem District Court, November 17, 2014. (Photo: Allison Deger)
Parents of Mohammed Abu Khdeir, Jerusalem District Court, November 17, 2014. (Photo: Allison Deger)

Parents of Mohammed Abu Khdeir, Jerusalem District Court, November 17, 2014. (Photo: Allison Deger)

Outside of the hearing room, camerapersons were kept at bay behind blue metal barricades, the kind that are used by police to block streets during riots. Just under a dozen journalists crammed into a corridor. The arrivals and departures were recorded: The family of the defendants entered first, then the Abu Khdeirs. The state prosecutor followed, warmly greeting Abu Khdeir�s father, Hussein Abu Khdeir. But the real draw of the day was Ben-David who again appeared unkempt in court. His black hair was uneven and multi-directional, tucked under a religious skullcap. His beard appeared spotty, yet strong. He sported a black tracksuit with red and gray trim, and his staple of courtroom attire: neon yellow crocs worn over thick gray socks. White tzitzit (religious trims) hung from his waistline.

The hearing itself lasted about thirty minutes. With two pleas delivered, and one withheld, what filled up the rest of the court�s time were procedural matters. The judge scheduled one more motion before the presentation of evidence. The state�s attorney will meet with representatives for the three defendants (they each have separate lawyers) in December to cap the number of witnesses. As of now the prosecution has a hefty list of 113 persons ready to give testimony. The actual trial will not begin until January.

Additionally, the results of an independent mental health review that Ben-David�s lawyer had asked for in the last meeting were not submitted, or rather they were not brought up at all.

When the pre-trial closed, the two minors and Ben-David walked handcuffed with police escorts towards a rear stairwell. One of the accused youths crouched with his head inside his sweatshirt, preventing a glimpse of his unknown face. The identities of the accused youths are sealed because they are minors.

But Ben-David, he strolled. His gaze was stoic, locking eyes with media workers.

The murder trial is part spectacle. Journalists came, in part, to log Ben-David�s moves. The settler from Adam is mounting an insanity defense, authentically or otherwise. In his first court appearance, Ben David announced that he is �the messiah.� Since then no one has heard him speak except for occasional mumbling noises he made during his last court appearance in October.

�He looked me in the eye and he didn�t take his eyes off of me. That was scary,� said Amsam Abu Khdeir, of the accused�s October appearance in the justice hall. Yet this time, Ben-David avoided eye contact during the hearing, staring off into space, unresponsive to his own name.

However, weeks ago state mental health officials reviewed Ben-David and deemed him of sound mind.

�He�s not crazy! He�s not crazy,� said Amsam Abu Khdeir emphatically. �He planned to kidnap and murder a kid. If you read the whole deposition he talks about exactly what he did,� she said referring to a play-by-play confession Ben-David gave to police before the hearing started. He even led them on a reenactment tour. �That�s the craziest thing that I�ve heard. �That I�m crazy, but I can plan.��
Yosef Ben-David, 29, accused ringleader in the murder and abduction of Mohammed Abu Khdeir. (Photo: Allison Deger)

Yosef Ben-David, 29, accused ringleader in the murder and abduction of Mohammed Abu Khdeir. (Photo: Allison Deger)

After his July indictment, in chilling detail Ben-David recounted the facts of the crime. He said one of the minors choked Abu Khdeir. He admitted to beating him with a metal pole. Then he said the three of them poured gasoline on him and Ben-David fired up the lighter. �We were hot and angry, and decided we�d burn something of the Arabs�,� he told police. The confessed even showed remorse in the policing questioning�albeit remorse tinged with racism and notions of Jewish supremacy, telling his interrogator after the crime he told the other defendants: �We had a purpose but this is not for us. We were wrong. We are merciful Jews. We are human beings.�

Ben-David also admitted that days before Abu Khdeir was abducted he and one of the indicted minors were responsible for a failed kidnapping of seven-year old Mousa Zaloum who was nearly grabbed off of the same street where the three found Abu Khdeir. That child�s mother struck the kidnappers ultimately chasing them away. The police were called. Nothing happened. Then a few days later Abu Khdeir was taken.

The stakes are high for Ben-David. If he�s found guilty of the gruesome murder and abduction he will be issued a mandatory life sentence. Alternatively if he succeeds in a presentation of not being criminally liable due to insanity, he will be ushered off to a mental hospital and released upon regaining his health. That could happen in as little as a six-months stay in a psychological ward. But in some sense, the state is already being harsh with him. It implemented a Mandate-era law that forbids the presence of lawyers when questioned, only employed for Israeli-Jews once or twice in Israel�s history according to the lawyer for the victim�s family.
Family of Mohammed Abu Khdeir. (Photo: Allison Deger)

Family of Mohammed Abu Khdeir. (Photo: Allison Deger)

�It�s sadness and it�s anger; it�s mixed feelings when you hear people talking about Mohammed,� said Amsam Abu Khdeir. Her family is a national exhibition, of unattainable justice. There was a media circus this summer when Abu Khdeir�s cousin, Tareq Abu Khdeir, 15, was brought in front of cameras for the first time after Israeli police beat and arrested him. CCTV footage showed the younger Abu Khdeir as he slipped out of consciousness from blows to the head by border police during protest in the wake of his cousin�s killing.

�After Mohammed, everything just exploded,� said cousin Amsam Abu Khdeir. Following her relative�s murder, Shuafat, once a quiet leafy Palestinian suburb of Jerusalem, descended into constant chaos. Palestinians demonstrated around the clock for nearly a week over the police�s ineptitude and crackdown. Her family endured an investigation that fingered Abu Khdeir�s father, rather than looking into the killing as a nationalistically motivated crime by Israeli-Jewish settlers. The police even distributed false claims that the youth was murdered by his family because he was gay. Border authorities also stationed themselves outside of the family home, firing tear gas into the mourners tent.

�Actually, there�s a lot of tension. There�s a lot of police cars everywhere,� continued Amsam Abu Khdeir, describing how Shuafat has remained embroiled in clashes between Palestinians and the authorities. �Every 10 meters you see soldiers, or police rather,� she said. Just last week, police called Amsam Abu Khdeir�s father and uncle and told them the memorial banner bearing Mohammed�s face was illegal and must be taken down.

The hearing comes at a time of growing discomfort for Palestinians with Israeli policies. This week, the Israeli knesset is considering a law that would state, �the State of Israel is the national state of the Jewish People,� as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a cabinet meeting on Sunday. The law would also strike Arabic as one of the state�s national languages.

The Abu Khdeir family has witnessed another unequal application of Israeli law. On Monday, Netanyahu called for the sealing or demolition of the homes of six Palestinians who are alleged to have killed or tried to kill Israelis. The Abu Khdeir�s have been calling for weeks for the demolition of the homes of the defendants in their son�s case, to no avail. �Everyone knows that they [the defendants] are monsters and they are killers. They murdered my cousin in cold blood,� said Amsam Abu Khdeir.

After weeks of trial delays, her frustrations are peaking. �At least to give them prison for life� I don�t know what to say,� she said. �Actually I hope they are burned alive like my cousin.� Such sentiments are heard commonly these days in Jerusalem, on both sides of the conflict.

Seriously how likely is it that the guy can get off on the "insanity" defense?

# ¿ Nov 18, 2014 20:41

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

CommieGIR posted:

You can't start an I/P thread without reminding people about Netanyahu's chart skills:

See? He was really trying to tell his just how much of a powder keg he was creating!

After the Kincaid and Eastwood Chair versions, this is probably my favorite photoshop phriday.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2014 20:44

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

vintagepurple posted:

This is a dumbass thing to say because Hamas as a terrorist organization arose due to the fact that they were outgunned. If Hamas had spent the last 70 years ruling the Islamic State of Palestine and Likud was a militant zionist organization that ruled a tiny jewish ghetto, you can be drat sure that the situation would be pretty similar to what it is.

Probably MAD.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 00:04

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

JeffersonClay posted:

It's unfortunately not just the GOP who supports Israel. 65 percent of Americans support Israel versus 15 percent for Palestine. I think most Americans think Palestinian=terrorist, and I dare say tactics like indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations are unlikely to move that number in the right direction.

>If you asked them if Attacking children playing soccer on the beach was acceptable the majority and even a plurality of the GOP would say no.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 19:22

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

JeffersonClay posted:

I think those attacks would be justified if they actually contributed to throwing Israel out, but they don't.

And as long as the rest of the world resists the impulse to occupy and oppress palestine, I really don't see the violence spreading.

If you asked them about Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach I think they'd say "it depends on what they were up to". Just like if you asked them about a police officer shooting an unarmed black teen.

Yeah I think thats just you.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 19:32

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

My Imaginary GF posted:

Look at America's policy history in sub-saharan Africa to see what happens when policy becomes ambivalent on outcomes. America has done, and continues to do, business with far worse actors than Israel.

Well my tax dollars arn't paying for them. Nor do they like to make claims about being some outpost of western civilization that Israel does.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 19:40

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

JeffersonClay posted:

So you think the only possible resistance is indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi-cleaving? I'm not suggesting palestinians should sit around doing nothing, I'm suggesting that random violence directed at the most sympathetic Israelis is counterproductive.

Ok, do you think high-profile attacks on Israeli civilians hasten or slow that slide to ambivalence?

So Jefferson if a people try peaceful siolutions and all it gets them is ethnic cleansing by the other side should they keep up being peaceful?

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 19:45

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

My Imaginary GF posted:

Yes, they are, and yes, they do, as much as if not more than Israel. If you think America gives away anything for free, you're wrong; sometimes, America will discount exports and provide them at-cost. At worst, we'll intervene when non-intervention threatens to show us video of starving and dying children in the street, or when it will impact our broader interests. Usually, Americans on this board don't pay attention to those, yet pay disproportionate attention to Israel.

The others also don't lead to huge blowback, which being the obedient boytoy of Israel does. Also I really do want us to require these clients to be more moral than they currently are.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 19:52

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

My Imaginary GF posted:

Iranian acquisition of nuclear weapons is unacceptable to American policy, and will be prevented by force when necessary.

Why is it unnaceptable? American policy should be to let the Middle East solve its own problems, we don't need the oil anyways and as long as the Suez stay open I don't see why we should be conscerned.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 20:15

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

My Imaginary GF posted:

Because 'solve its own problems' results in genocide. For better or worse, Americans are firmly against photogenic genocides.

Yeah when our interventions instead lead to slow genocides and ethnic cleanings I really don't see how us leaving would make a difference. I say let Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia decide what happens to the region.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 20:21

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

CommieGIR posted:

I'm sure Pakistan wants a say too, at least then MIGF can live out his Clacy-esque dreams of a preemptive nuclear strike

Considering that place has significant problems keeping itself together, I want to know what reality sees it extending influence anywhere beyond the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 20:24

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

My Imaginary GF posted:

Spread of the intifada to American soil

Iranian acquisition of nuclear weapons capabilities with determination to acquire weapons

Attempts by Palestinian organizations to coordinate with ISIS/acquire WMDs

Stop playing rainbow six.

Doflamingo posted:

I hate saying this but Iraq was better off with Saddam. The entire region is super hosed now.

Oh you'll get no disagreement from me. At the moment the region looks like it is going to have its own 30 years war.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 20:29

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

My Imaginary GF posted:

Morals don't belong in politics

I'll quote that the next time you say its so horrible that a Palestinian killed some innocent Israeli.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 20:00

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Job Truniht posted:

Romans have a strong historical claim to Israeli land. We should give it to the Vatican.

Wasn't that Tom Clanceys solution to the conflict?

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 21:38

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

My Imaginary GF posted:

"Survive the Shoah, get your house taken over by the Soviets and lose everything? Quit colonizing, that land with safety isn't yours."

That's victim blaming. The post you cite lays out the political realities of the current situation, which you apparently see as victim blaming.

I thought you were against morality.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2014 00:13

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

The Insect Court posted:

Your obsessive paranoia of being accused of anti-semitism simply isn't healthy C.G. Do you ever experience feelings of persecution as a result of this belief? Do you ever hear voices of people who aren't there accusing you of anti-semitism? I'm no mental health expert, but I would humbly suggest you consider raising the issue with your therapist in case there are underlying issues.

I'll take that as a no.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2014 02:28

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

syscall girl posted:

That was also wrong and bad. Wasn't even the right country. Total failure. Good analogy, mouth-breather.

No it was perfectly fine. And they did in fact have Bin Ladin, it was just that our idiots in charge of America forgot about Afghanistan and went to Iraq.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2014 07:32

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

syscall girl posted:

It's okay to invade a country based on the word of known liars resulting in thousands of deaths to not find someone accused of a crime?

We did, Bin Ladin is now dead. Also we had a video that showed him admitting to the act.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2014 08:25

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

syscall girl posted:

Pretty sure Osama did 9/11. I'm not a truther or anything like that. I'm saying that the invasion of Afghanistan was a pitiful flailing attempt to appease the frothing masses. And Israel does worse to Palestinians over poorly aimed bottle rockets launched by literal angry children.

Yeah loving bottle rockets is a big difference from, highjacking planes and ramming them into major buildings killing 3000 people in the process. You know if some Palestinian group did what Al Quadia did on 9'11 and the PLO or Hamas refused to hand over the perpetrators I would say Israel would be justified.

"ma'an posted:

Palestinian woman run over by Israeli near Shufat
Published yesterday (updated) 22/11/2014 09:44
(MaanImages/file)
JERUSALEM (Ma'an) -- A Palestinian was run over by a Jewish settler near the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Shufat while she was walking to prayers at a local mosque on Friday, her family told Ma'an.

Suzanne al-Kurd, 29, was struck by a car driven by an Israeli individual and left with bruises all over her legs as she walked in front of the Shufat Mosque, her mother said.

The vehicle reportedly accelerated suddenly as al-Kurd crossed the street and hit her directly before speeding off, leaving her lying on the street in pain.

Palestinian passersby who were nearby at the time of the incident rushed to her aid after the attack, her mother said, adding that she had been taken to the hospital where she was being treated for bruises and pain in her legs, waist, and arms as well as dizziness and headache.

Her mother said her daughter recognized the driver of the vehicle as a Jewish settler because he was wearing a kippah, a skullcap often worn by religious Jews.

"The incident was carried out in a deliberate manner because he ran her over and fled at high speed, all because my daughter was wearing an abaya and hijab," she said, referring to clothes often worn by religious Muslim women.

The incident comes in the wake of a serious of anti-Palestinian hate crimes across Jerusalem, in the West Bank, and inside Israel, with at least four different attacks by Israelis reported overnight.

Many Palestinian taxi drivers have reportedly stopped working in Jerusalem amid an upswing in attacks that began over early summer and has intensified in recent weeks.

The attacks have come amid rising tensions in the city after a series of individual Palestinian attacks on Israelis in occupied East Jerusalem.

These attacks increased during an Israeli offensive on Gaza that left nearly 2,200 dead and an upswing in Israeli military violence across Jerusalem and the West Bank that has left almost 50 dead so far this year, and thousands more in prison.

I assume Israel will bulldoze this settlers home won't they?

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Nov 22, 2014

# ¿ Nov 22, 2014 16:26

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

MonsieurChoc posted:

The only reason MIGF and TIC aren't on my ignore list is that they are a easy way to regain Rage Points.

My eyes just glass oer any time I see MIGF. Seriously ignore him.

So according to Mondoweiss Avigdor has unveiled his parties new solution to the Palestinians in pre 1967 Israel. Pay them to get out.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/11/lieberman-unveils-palestinians

Wish I could quote but for some reason cannot copy and paste.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 28, 2014

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 17:16

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

You know Israel is not in any way in the US constitution. So we should probably not support it.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 18:52

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

CommieGIR posted:

The point being both your stance and perspective of thr I/P conflict is nonsensical and pedantic.

Your take on the I/P conflict is just as imaginary as your girlfriend.

Now that we are done with the MIGF beatdown I would like to hear what the Israeli posters thoughts are on the coming election could Likud lose seats?

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 21:26

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

So are there any suspects yet in the Firebombing of the school?

# ¿ Dec 2, 2014 10:52

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

So Bennet decided to try to befriend Saban and other "friends of israel. Turns out they are a little taken a back at his ideas.

Mondoweiss posted:

In an openly-confrontational appearance with leading American supporters of Israel in Washington this weekend, Israel�s economics minister, Naftali Bennett, dismissed global threats of boycott criticisms of Israel, referring to �a little thing called the rest of the world.� He said that if Europe cuts Israel off, Israeli products might stop working and Europeans will have heart attacks.
Haim Saban

Haim Saban

The warning about heart attacks came in a defiant response to a concerned question from Haim Saban, a huge supporter of Israel who has funded the Clintons [Video below, Minutes 59 and 1:01].

Saban: �Are you willing to cut commercial ties with Europe, because this is what�s going to happen if you have your way in annexing Area C [most of the occupied West Bank]. Can you afford disconnecting from Europe?�

Bennett, the leader of the rightwing Jewish Home Party, who is thought to have a real chance to become Israel�s next Prime Minister, said that he does not envision annexing Area C tomorrow.

Things take time. I�m not suggesting overnight� We have to change the direction. It�s already working in Israel, now we have only a little thing called the rest of the world. But you have to start somewhere.

Regarding cutting commerce? Look, if today you pressed the button, and you stopped using Israeli products, you wouldn�t wake up in the morning because the chip in your cell phone doesn�t work because it�s made in Israel. You wouldn�t get to work because you don�t have Waze. You might have a heart attack because the stent in your heart doesn�t work. The vegetables you eat would be lousy because you�re not getting Netafim [irrigation system]. Your account would be hacked and I could go on and on. Israel needs to be indispensable, and it is. And what we�re good at, we�re not good at selling products. We export innovation.

It wasn�t clear just what Bennett meant by these threats, but he implied that Israeli-made stents and chips that are now working would cease to work the morning after �you pressed the button� of boycott. Bennett dismissed the threat of European boycotts. �We�ve had boycotts since our inception� [When he was a boy] we didn�t have Pepsi in Israel� If anyone boycott us, they�re anti-semtiic.�

Bennett spoke at the Saban Forum�s annual conference on the US and Israel. The conference is part of the special relationship between Israel and the U.S.; it is funded by Saban, an ardent Zionist and Democratic Party giver who lately palled around with Republican warchest Sheldon Adelson, musing about buying the New York Times together to support Israel.

Bennett has opposed the creation of a Palestinian state and was often harshly treated in the appearance. Martin Indyk, a longtime Israel supporter, opened the talk by saying he was going to �kick Naftali�s rear end,� audience members expressed open discomfort with Bennett�s defiance of the world, and another longtime Israel supporter, Dennis Ross, said Bennett was not talking to Palestinians. While Brookings Institution fellow Khaled Elgindy said that Bennett was trampling Palestinian rights.

What in the last 100 years of this conflict and the history of the conflict would suggest to you or lead you to believe that Palestinians would accept the money, the roads, establishing their own curricula [that you are offering them]� as opposed to something more fundamental such as their rights? You don�t want Palestinians as citizens of Israels. There�s only one other way for Palestinians to have the right to self determination, and that is through a state of their own� Can you make the case� for why the Palestinians are the only group of humans in the world that do not have the right to self-determination?

Bennett responded that the situation was tragic, but that Palestinians deny the existence of a Jewish state, thereby threatening his children�s survival� and said that there was enough land on the highway medians from Atlanta to Columbus GA to give Palestinians a state 17 times over, but not enough in the West Bank for them to have a state.

Saban thanked Bennett for serving in an elite unit of the Israeli army, but he also said, �You and I live in different bubbles and in different realities.�

Bennett is having a rough trip in the United States. He was sharply questioned by Joe Scarborough this morning on Morning Joe, and the Israeli press is highlighting his differences with former peace processor Martin Indyk.

If you watch Bennett�s performance at the Saban Forum, he seems to swagger even as the audience is dead silent; and he seems not to notice the audience�s discomfort. For instance, speaking of his qualifications to be prime minister of Israel, Bennett emphasized contempt for the world�s opinion as a prerequisite for the office.

I think in our very difficult situation there is one quality that is almost more important than the rest. And that is that internal spine. I�d buy even less on intelligence�. The immense pressures� like Martin is presenting, the whole world is going to be against us� When you look at Israel�s history, ultimately, the big distinction was the people having that inner spine.

He also defended the highly-controversial bill to define Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.This bill has been widely opposed by American supporters of Israel. As Bennett spoke in favor of the bill, you could hear a pin drop.

He said that basic laws giving rights to all citizens of Israel were passed in the dead of night during the Shamir government (86-92) and with these laws �you only have the human-rights piece and not the Jewish piece.� Under those laws, Bennett said, Palestinians could sue to be included on the free Birthright trips to Israel, and they might win the case; and Palestinians could demand to exercise the right of return to their homes, as Jews exercise the law of return to move to Israel.

He went on to deride former Supreme Court justice Aharon Barak, a hero of liberal Zionists, for knocking down a host of laws that denied Palestinian rights.

Bennett�s appearance will surely catalyze the growing distance between American supporters of Israel and the rightwing political establishment of the state. Even Haim Saban is uncomfortable with Bennett, along with Establishmentarians Dennis Ross and Martin Indyk. If as seems likely the Israeli government continues to lurch rightward, we�re going to see some real tumult inside the special relationship, leaving room for politicians to be openly critical of Israel. Maybe almost as critical as the members of the Israel lobby who spoke up at the Saban Forum.

Seriously he is making putin style threats here. Also he is making one of the major players in the pro Israel lobby really nervous.

BTW could anyone explain to me the whole Jonathan Pollard case, I have gotten into a debate with some of those idiots who want to release him, and they keep claiming the guy is some Edward Snowden like figure.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 00:16

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

And now there goes the second user to my ignore list. So what are the chances of Area A becoming like Gaza becuase of the ministers death?

# ¿ Dec 12, 2014 02:13

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

So how are the elections ramp up going? Is Israel going to be less openly pro apartheid?

# ¿ Dec 23, 2014 21:25

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

How bad would the Jewish public get if the Palestinians in Israel formed a united list?

# ¿ Dec 24, 2014 00:41

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

botany posted:

You mean Israeli Arabs? They're trying, but from what I've read, even if they succeed in putting their differences aside and joining forces, they'll end up at around 15 seats out of the 120 in the Knesset. That's not going to accomplish much, and aside from the usual grandstanding, I doubt the Israeli public will pay more attention than usual.

I thought Palestinians in Israel made up over 20% of the population. Wouldn't that means 30 seats in the Knesset? Also considering how racist Israeli society is wouldn't they having such a presence in the knesset lead to some sort of shitstorm?

# ¿ Dec 24, 2014 01:42

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Soviet Space Dog posted:

Muslims had an official theological position that Jews should be treated as second class citizens. From the point of view of modern liberal democracy that is bad, but compared to how other pre-modern societies treated minorities that's actually pretty good. In practice dhimmi could range from active discrimination to a bit more tax and restrictions on hats while minorities run a large proportion of government. There's a reason the majority of Sephardic Jews ended up in the Ottoman empire.

How could hats be limited? Under the dhimmi system?

# ¿ Jan 27, 2015 21:58

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

You know perhapse if we had the draft in the USA we could do away with certain people being all gungho about getting back at Iran for 1979.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2015 22:19

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

UberJew posted:

It did, however, largely destroy the US Army as a fighting force for years and regularly cripple US Navy ships due to resistance from within the ranks in the forms of sabotage, the murder of officers and incidents of mass mutiny. Having a draft would definitely negatively effect the ability of the US government to project military force overseas, which is exactly why the military does not want a conscript army ever again.

Also it forced men from various walks of life and ethnic identity to have to work together.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2015 06:37

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

computer parts posted:

The people being gung ho at Iran were themselves drafted.

Ted Cruz was in diapers when they ended it.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2015 02:31

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

emanresu tnuocca posted:

According to these guys who analyzed previous election polls and claim to have come up with a way to get more accurate predictions based on consistent errors made by certain pollsters the joint arab party is going to be the 3rd largest party with 14 seats, 1 more than bennet and twice as many as liberman. Likud and Avoda tied for first at 24.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13XIAgbVk_c2Zxxa5xsR0EJFb6W9HMQpAjBImtFxZdxo/edit#gid=1038480399

parties to the right still have more seats and Likud is still most likely to lead a coalition but it's starting to reach the point where the only way to consolidate a less than marginal majority would be for Avoda and Likud to form a unity government. If Bibi gets all the center and right parties to go with him and gets Shas on board he'll have 65 seats, conceptually Shas doesn't really play nice with Lapid, Liberman or Bennet but politics does make strange bed fellows.

So how long would such a hypothetical government last?

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 04:24

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Is LOGH really that good? I never really have been able to get into Japanese space opera besides Planetes and Gundam Seed.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2015 04:24

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

I actually kind of liked Evangalion. (Wouldn't call it Sci Fi though). Although I was going through a rather dark period of my life.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2015 06:48

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

emanresu tnuocca posted:

I dunno, I guess germans just wanting to make germany judenrein was also not racist, after all, the jews did commit the Nakba.

I'm starting to like these time-travel morality shenanigans, but at some point we'll have to talk about how the expulsion of jews from muslim countries totally justifies the nakba cause why not.

This is one reason why I think any peace plan will have to require Muslim countries that expelled their Jewish minorities, many who probably would have felt more at home with the newly emerging Arabist ideolodgy rather than Zionism should have to pay reparations.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2015 21:24

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

My Imaginary GF posted:

The expulsion of Jews from muslim states justifies a nakba on an equal level. Since a nakba on an equal level was not carried out against Arabs in Palestine, the nakba cannot be justified.

The difference between the Israeli ethnic policies during the independence war and muslim state ethnic policies is that Israeli ethnic policies are not administered directly through state institutions tied to one individual's will, while muslim state ethnic policies are. This is a key difference, and the sole reason why Israeli ethnic policies are defensible.

Go gently caress yourself. Neither is justified. I do argue for reparations for the Jews because that made it easy to justify inhumanity on Israels part.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Mar 7, 2015

# ¿ Mar 7, 2015 21:56

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Was that the show where every dubber sounded like they were shouting their lines?:

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Mar 24, 2015

# ¿ Mar 24, 2015 22:28

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 01:53

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Really a peace plan should require both Israel and the Arab states agree to some sort of compensation to affected parties who can never return home. Neither wants said people coming back, but both wronged them, so they should pay for their crimes should they not? Also it really i a crime that the Arab countries do not try to assimilate them.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2015 00:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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