I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

NEW THREAD RULES AND NEW MOD TO ENFORCE THEM :siren:

A message from new D&D mod Absurd Alhazred:

Hey folks, just a head's up, after leaving this thread in a huff about a month ago, I've now been made mod and this is probably going to be a thread I will be focusing on. For those of you who don't know me, I'm an Israeli expat but extremely left wing (at least in Israeli terms).

Here is my conception of how discussion here will proceed:

Considering the shitshow that is the current government, the vulgar brutality of the occupation regime in the West Bank, the maintenance of Gaza as an open-air prison, and a myriad of racist legal and quasi-legal practices inside the Green Line, I am sure those of you who want can find many substantiated atrocities to cry foul over, and I encourage that. I will not, however tolerate blatant pushing of conspiracy theories and antisemitism.

As for people promoting what is usually referred to as a "pro-Israel" stance, I personally am not going to probate/ban you just for saying outrageous things, as long as you argue for them well. But I am going to have a low tolerance for rehashed Hasbara talking points, and definitely for bigotry towards Arabs, Jews of a descent you don't like, African asylum seekers, Muslim generally or specifically of some sect, Christians, Europeans, etc. Many of my ancestors were murdered in the Holocaust or suffered the rigors of the Pale of Settlement, and their descendents helped build Israel, for better or for worse, but that is no excuse for being bigoted assholes towards non-Jews now out of some misplaced sense of entitlement. Keep that under control, at least here.

Now that that's out of the way, feel free to report what you think are excesses, PM me about issues, etc. I'm here to help make this thread work.

END COMMUNICATION

Original OP:

:pcgaming:

TO SUPPORT PALESTINIAN HUMANITARIAN RELIEF EFFORTS IN A MANNER BEYOND BITCHING YOU CAN DONATE TO THE FOLLOWING ORGANIZATIONS :pcgaming:

http://www.map-uk.org/

http://www.unrwa.org/

credit: Exclamation Marx

Here are all of the good posts in this thread:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3682289&userid=184584

ISRAEL'S MESSAGE TO THE PEOPLE OF JAPAN IMPORTANT PLEASE WATCH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFT22S9euEI
shalom-chan ^_^

EDIT: basically no one is following the below advice, but rest assured, if you don't you are a stupid oval office and your house should be bulldozed, you loving idiot.

:gifttank:

HELPFUL TIPS FOR POSTING IN THIS THREAD :gifttank:

1) You should probably not engage with My Imaginary GF. He is just trolling.

2) Please keep rape analogies to a minimum (ie none)

3) Posting about posting is stupid. Post about Israel s'il vous plait

4) Everyone who criticizes Israeli treatment of Palestinians is an anti-semite, this is established fact so stop discussing it.

I got the go ahead to open a new I/P thread to funnel all the poo poo posting that entails.

THE STORY SO FAR: After Israel did as Israel do to provoke the Palestinians, some Palestinian men entered a synagogue and killed four and wounded 8 others. There have been clashes between Israeli police and Palestinians and things might be spiraling out of control, possibly towards yet another armed conflict.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/11/jerusalem-synagogue-attacked-gunmen-201411185401123578.html

quote:

Fighting has broken out between Israeli police and Palestinians in Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank following an attack on a synagogue in the west of the city in which four Israelis were killed and eight others injured by two Palestinian men.

The Palestinian attackers, who police said were armed with a gun and axes, were shot dead by police after gaining entrance to the Har Nof Synagogue on Tuesday.

Palestinian medical sources told Al Jazeera that at least 35 Palestinians were wounded in confrontations between the Israeli security forces and Palestinian protesters in Jerusalem after the synagogue attack.

Sources said that 10 Palestinians were wounded in Al Ram, located in northeast Jerusalem, and 25 others were wounded in Sur Baher, south of the city.

There were also reports of confrontations in Ramallah, in the West Bank, as three Israeli military vehicles drove by the outskirts of the city. Minor confrontations were also reported at the illegal Psagot settlement, south of Ramallah.

In response to the synagogue attack, Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who warned of a "harsh response," ordered the demolition of the homes of the two Palestinians who carried out the attack.

Israeli soldiers and vehicles started the demolition on Tuesday evening.

Netanyahu said that Hamas, the Palestinian faction that governs the Gaza Strip, had spread lies that Israel was trying to take control of a religious site in occupied East Jerusalem, called Temple Mount by Israelis and Haram al-Sharif by Arabs.

"This caused the attacks," Netanyahu said. "There is no end to their [Hamas's] terror against the state of Israel."

Earlier, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the killings while Hamas said it was "a natural reaction to Israel's practices" against Palestinians.

Have fun you guys!

CONTENT:

Some information that might be useful for understanding the current unrest:

A map of restrictions on access to the West Bank. If this looks like a border that's more restrictive than either then southern or northern borders of the United States, that's because it is.

h/t fade5

Advocacy for the divestment movement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASIBGSSw4lI

h/t Dilkington

If anyone has anything else useful please let me know.

Infographics by Darkcrawler on why Israel is an apartheid/colonial occupying state

Somebody fucked around with this message at 06:03 on May 17, 2015

# ¿ Nov 18, 2014 20:27

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 15, 2024 18:43

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

By the way if anyone wants an actually good OP, PM me materials that would be relevant for it, like a primer on the history of the conflict or relevant international humanitarian law provisions or whatever else that is a useful lens for understanding the current unrest so there can be a happy, informed debate. I will not put the Netanyahu cartoon bomb image since that presentation was done in reference to Iran, not Palestine. namaste

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 03:38

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

fade5 posted:

Darkcrawler's posts on I/P in either the last thread or a thread or two before that. I'm legit serious, he did an excellent job of explaining I/P in simple enough terms for me to follow along, and it's where a lot of my I/P knowledge came from.

For useful content, they say a picture's worth a thousand words, so here's something that really, really resonates with me:

West Bank access restrictions, or "Why a two state solution is no longer possible".

Dilkington posted:

I don't have messaging, but I'd offer this video of Finkelstein on the BDS movement. I remember when it first came out some people were having fits- personally I loved it and still do. It's absolutely relevant to this thread and to any discussion of how those sympathetic to the cause of Palestinians might formulate their advocacy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASIBGSSw4lI

These are quite good, I added these to the OP. Thanks!

DarkCrawler posted:

License plates.

I also made these for anyone wanting specifics on why Israel is an colonialist apartheid state:
http://m.imgur.com/gallery/L86hXg4
http://m.imgur.com/gallery/Tv0cv

So, Netanyahu already calling it a Battle for Jerusalem
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30107446

I did not add these because from a cursory glance I noticed a red flag of factual inaccuracy that undermines the credibility of your argument. In image two you state that there were no American civilians operating in Iraq, however at the very least there were tens of thousands in the form of contractors, to say nothing of state department and other governmental civilian individuals. If you want to argue that these contractors were not civilians, then okay, but it directly contravenes international law. I do not want to fact check the rest of the points of the image, but that was enough for a No Go in my mind, sorry.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 05:12

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

DarkCrawler posted:

I would just reiterate that Israel hasn't actually made any such claim or promise, it's just something MIGF has pulled out of his rear end as usual.

Uhh, I pretty clearly wrote that there were civilians, but they were working for either the government or the military..I even write that there are some now, in the same capacity, maybe read it again

oh sorry, i misread. fair enough.

Though is it just me or do the images not fully load?

Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Nov 19, 2014

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 05:17

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

nopantsjack posted:

Also stop feeding the trolls, everyone knows MIGF is either trolling or barely sapient, the last 10 pages have been 70% MIGF posts and replies, please stop. There is nothing to be gained by debating with people who haven't gone to the basic effort of educating themselves. You wouldn't have a debate about WW2 with a guy who thought the allies were the ones with the pointy hats.

Yeah I put a helpful guide to posting in the OP because of this nonsense.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 22:30

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

jesus christ can we just stop the rape analogies they are creepy and unproductive.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 05:22

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/11/20/israel_refuses_to_release_bodies_for_burial_terror_attackers_families_denied.html

israel refusing to release the bodies of the perpetrators of the synagogue attack for burial, presumably just to piss off muslims more i guess.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 21:30

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

syscall girl posted:

I believe there is a law that specifically prohibits US companies from boycotting Israeli goods. Not sure if Finland has the same.

It's weird that we have this law that only applies to Israel, I think.

http://www.cov.com/files/publicatio..._strategies.pdf

wow, who knew i would actually learn a goddamn single thing from this thread. sure enough, this is a thing that exists. i'm astounded this hasn't been struck down on first amendment grounds.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2014 01:29

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

My Imaginary GF posted:

Not asking for an explanation; I'm asking for a direct citation from a koran.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/017-qmt.php#017.001

farthest mosque is al-aqsa

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 07:50

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

My Imaginary GF posted:

That's my point, the rabbi is factually correct: Jerusalem does not appear in a koran. A vague reference to a distance mosque appears; early scholars disagreed on this location. Ultimately, with standardization, it was determined the location was Jerusalem due to political reasons.

If you cannot accept that "Jerusalem does not appear in a koran" is a factual statement, then I very much doubt Israeli security will appreciate your desire to travel to the administrative jurisdiction of Jerusalem.

well the rabbi general said that it's "not even hinted at" which is factually incorrect because it is hinted at. anyway this is pedantic and stupid

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 08:39

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Crowsbeak posted:

Now that we are done with the MIGF beatdown I would like to hear what the Israeli posters thoughts are on the coming election could Likud lose seats?

i'm not israeli (thank god) but judging from the polls, MIGF is right, if trends hold, then if Likud loses seats at all it will be to other people in the Blood Gargle Coalition

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 21:48

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Lustful Man Hugs posted:

...

...What precisely is your gimmick?

typically, word salad

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 22:06

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Fangz posted:

Let's talk about some real issues here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFT22S9euEI

really tempted to make Shalom-chan my avatar

# ¿ Dec 2, 2014 01:27

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

MonsieurChoc posted:

When are people going to elarn not to answer My Imaginary GF? I'm half-convinced at this point he'S an internet bot. He'd most likely fail the Turing test. He certainly fails the Voight-Kampf test.

there will be a peace deal in palestine before people learn this

# ¿ Dec 2, 2014 10:50

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

israel is terrible but saddam hussein used chemical weapons on his own nationals and was guilty of graver human rights abuses than israel has been thus far, this is stupid, thansk that's my input

edit: white phosphorus doesn't loving count

Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Dec 3, 2014

# ¿ Dec 3, 2014 11:51

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

israel holds a special place in our hearts because our government sponsors it at the expense of the security of american citizens and its reputation abroad, and yet still the government of israel are smug unappreciative petulant cocksuckers who cry anti-semitism at the slightest hint of criticism from our emir, B. Hussein Obama or any others. they are basically one of the worst allies in american history and really demonstrate the folly of not heeding george washington's outgoing advice.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 10:50

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

The Insect Court posted:

Ok, you hate Israel because they fail to show proper deference to American leaders and because they're another reason to put a Canadian flag patch on your backpack. Glad we've cleared up your motivations.

My problem with Israel is the occupation. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

well you wanted to know what was extraordinary about israel's human rights abuses, compared to all the other evil that goes on in the world

edit: american interests are basically always selfish regardless of the proponents place on a political spectrum; weird but true

Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Dec 4, 2014

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 11:07

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

i think it's just a matter of how you define terrorism. if you say terrorism is politically motivated violence against civilians in order to sow fear, then yes both are pretty unambiguously terrorist organizations. if you exclude state violence from that definition, which many do, than likud's terrorist bona fides are more ambiguous

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 05:30

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Dead Reckoning posted:

Organized violence by the state is generally separate from terrorism for the same reason that taxation and eminent domain are separate from theft.

i'm aware it's not a real legal concept, but it's hard to argue that "state terrorism" is not a political concept, it's been part of the discourse for a while.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 06:14

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Dead Reckoning posted:

Spoiler alert: there was no evidence they would have considered sufficient.
It's an emotive term people use to describe state violence they don't like. It doesn't have a real meaning.

i suppose it could have meaning if it is constrained to state violence that has no apparent legitimate military or legal objective. there are certainly historical acts that would fit the bill, such as kristallnacht, as far as one may regard that as state action. i'm not really arguing in favor of the concept but i am saying that it's there and can and will be used as an accusation against the israeli government for some of its actions.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 06:30

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Post-poll-60-percent-of-Israelis-dont-want-Netanyahu-anymore-383724

Apparently Bibi is polling much worse than expected so far. Some caveats: 500 is a pretty low sample size for a poll and thus has a pretty decently sized margin of errors, polling in Israel is unreliable and terrible, and coalition politics could render this all jack poo poo anyway. If polls continue to go against Likud I can imagine a lot more provocation of violence by the government in anticipation of the poll

# ¿ Dec 6, 2014 01:17

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

haha aipac is mad about bombing ISIS

# ¿ Dec 6, 2014 03:17

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

TheImmigrant posted:

How many Neckbearded scrotelice who've never buttsexed a Jewish chick because, like, BDS, do you think shooshied in their Mountain Dew over this Magnificent Post? Zero, or zero? Bravo, son.

what in god's name is wrong with you

# ¿ Dec 10, 2014 00:49

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

is having anal sex with a jewish woman a prerequisite to having an opinion on possible violations of international humanitarian law perpetrated by israel? if so, brb

# ¿ Dec 10, 2014 04:13

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Hey I/Pcrew I haven't looked at this thread in a bit, did anyone write any good effort posts on the upcoming election I can insert into the OP?

# ¿ Jan 30, 2015 01:42

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Have there been any good posts ever I should link or quote in the OP

# ¿ Apr 7, 2015 03:40

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Flowers For Algeria posted:

You have a child's understanding of international law and relations. Congrats.

Yep, what a fundamentally idiotic post. But it looks like he has a worse understanding of 9/11 than a typical child.

hakimashou posted:

It might very well, but Israelis didn't crash planes into our office buildings, people chanting "allahu ackbar" did, and so, when faced with the choice between supporting our friends and supporting a different group of people doing suicide attacks and chanting "Allahu ackbar," real people are going to be a lot more likely to support their friends,

The point is, violence against Israel is just part of "Islamist violence against America and its allies" now.

And that can't lead anywhere good.

Isn't it time the Palestinians tried something else?

Gandhi and Dr King used nonviolence in their struggles, and they won.

# ¿ Apr 19, 2015 20:57

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

What is the point of responding to MIGF, he is a coked up mentally ill dipshit

# ¿ Apr 22, 2015 22:26

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Hey fucksticks: United Nations Report: Israeli Military Killed 44 Civilians Sheltered at U.N. Schools in Gaza

Not shocking but official now

# ¿ Apr 28, 2015 09:02

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Ultramega posted:

Would you please do this everyone.

Jagchosis; would you please add links to MAPS/UNRWA/whatever other pro-palestinian israeli NGO's or legit charities people can donate to the op?

Sure thing, if someone quotes this post with the links or PMs me with them. I don't really know which ones are good or not

# ¿ Apr 30, 2015 01:24

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Jagchosis posted:

Ultramega posted:
Would you please do this everyone.

Jagchosis; would you please add links to MAPS/UNRWA/whatever other pro-palestinian israeli NGO's or legit charities people can donate to the op?

Sure thing, if someone quotes this post with the links or PMs me with them. I don't really know which ones are good or not

This offer still stands btw, I/P crew

My Imaginary GF posted:

Israel is a state actor. Hamas is not. Therefore it is not the same logic; the same logic would be Likud using Ben Gurian to launch Likud-flagged strikes against Gaza for Likudian goals.

From what, all international responsibilities, such as 'do not attack foreign nations and expect no response'?

State actors aren't allowed to intentionally target civilians for no legitimate military purpose either

# ¿ Apr 30, 2015 20:33

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Jagchosis posted:

Sure thing, if someone quotes this post with the links or PMs me with them. I don't really know which ones are good or not

This offer still stands btw, I/P crew

State actors aren't allowed to intentionally target civilians for no legitimate military purpose either
[/quote]

ultramega pm'd me, OP updated.

My Imaginary GF posted:

An attack was launched from the site near those civilians. Artillery counter-fire is a game of statistics, with a wider and more intense area of fire required for greater probability of target elimination as time passes. Since Israel has an organized chain of command, sometimes those orders take time to move up, and then back down, that chain, especially in situations where Hamas launches attacks from high-PR value targets.

It is far better to have an organized order of battle and chain of command, as those make an organization a well-regulated and professional institution, than it is to have every Mu'ammed, Omar, and Ali' launch terrorist attacks on a foreign nation whenever they please.

Sounds like the chain of command needs training on the legal principle of proportionality then because if they think they are obeying the Geneva Conventions then they are really fuckin dumb!

# ¿ Apr 30, 2015 23:15

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

My Imaginary GF posted:

I'd call counter-bombardment in response to attacks which shut down a nation's sole air corridor to be proportionate.

Not even what proportionate means in this context. If collateral damage is expected to occur during a strike on a legitimate target (which lol at that part too) it needs to be proportionate to the military advantage gained. This is enshrined in Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions I and the Rome Statute. While Israel is party to neither (wonder why :rolleye:

) guidelines on proportionality are still included in IDF manuals on the laws of war.

# ¿ May 1, 2015 01:38

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Grouchio posted:

Is Bibi still hosed? I'm really looking forward to figuratively licking his tears now!

Dang son few posts back, he got his narrow coalition

# ¿ May 7, 2015 01:57

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

VitalSigns posted:

Since people are asking about Israeli politics I have a question. Why is there a President whose only job seems to be to look at the guy who got a majority of Knesset votes for prime minister and say "yep you sure got a majority" and then when the PM loses a majority go "yep you sure lost that majority let's have a new election then"? Oh and I guess to also appoint all the ministers when a new PM says "okay here are the ministers I want"?

Like, what's the point of having an elected dude that's as powerless as the Queen of England? I get why England does it: there's this funny old superstition that God is really really chuffed about making sure that the English monarch has passed through the most direct and non-Catholic chain of vaginas back to some really successful iron-age warlord, no matter how dumb or incompetent or inbred any individual king might be, so you just put all the power in the hands of the elected government, have a tradition that the king only uses his few powers the way parliament says, and wears a sweet hat and says some magic words and stuff whenever there's a new session to fool God into thinking the king is still running the show.

That all makes sense. But Israel was a republic from the beginning and is like 70 years old, what do they need that for?

It's a pretty common system dude:

(orange is same presidential system as Israel)

The President handles the meaningless poo poo that isn't worth the head of government's time and in some imposes one check on the parliament's power to form government

Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:22 on May 25, 2015

# ¿ May 25, 2015 09:40

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 15, 2024 18:43

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Has this been posted yet

http://www.onionstudios.com/videos/onion-explains-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-3063

# ¿ Aug 5, 2015 06:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal