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Israel stands against a Hamas-ISIS alliance. America cannot let them stand alone. E: A more elaborate explanation is that, like ISIS, the current attacks in Israel appear to be a social movement attracting disaffected individuals to promote the aims of more amoral political organizations. In this, Hamas is like ISIS where they take advantage of an underlying resentment against state institutions to promote their own agenda, with the assistance of foreign support. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 18, 2014 20:28
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SedanChair posted:OK now would you like to translate that into something remotely true or factual, for people not bound to agree with it by a complex system of patronage? America has had to compromise on its acceptance of Assad's power base remaining in power in Syria. This is a case which Netanyahu has surely learned an invaluable lesson from. Rent-A-Cop posted:Whats the difference between an Intifada and the normal cycle of terrorism/retaliatory bombing? The normal cycle is more predictable. An intifada is random knifings of Jewish targets.
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Nov 18, 2014 20:33
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Crowsbeak posted:So knowing that Abbas is largely a Israeli stooge, how much can he bottle up Palestinians from going into full on resistance mode in the west bank? About as much as Netanyahu can bottle up Israelis from going into full on Bashar Al-Assad mode in the West Bank.
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Nov 18, 2014 20:37
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JeffersonClay posted:How are we knowing this? Because he doesn't call for death to israel at every turn, he is obviously an Israeli stooge and likelong a Mossad plant. This is the actual opinion of individuals. This is not an insane position to hold for most readers of this thread. To me, its absolutely fuckn insanity.
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Nov 18, 2014 21:02
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CommieGIR posted:Both of you are in time out, no retaliatory strikes!* *definition of strike differs by side. Terms and conditions for time-out may apply. See contract for details. Contract only available in select religions.
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Nov 18, 2014 21:13
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Cat Mattress posted:So there's this guy who rapes a woman. The woman struggles, and hurts the guy. A policeman arrives on the scene. The guy cuts the woman's hands off, saying he has the rights to defend himself. The policeman agrees with his assessment and turns away. The guy keeps on raping the woman. Sharia is pretty hosed up.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:06
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Heavy neutrino posted:Did the IDF invade Saudi Arabia or what's the deal here The deal is that Hamas' endorsement of today's synagogue massacre demonstrates the reality of their ambitions: they retain actual genocidal intentions. Some folks who defend Hamas therefore blame Israel for Hamas' possession of genocidal intent.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:35
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CommieGIR posted:
If Israel wanted to, Israel has the ability to genocide all Palestinians. Hamas does not have the ability to genocide all Israelis, and it wants to.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:40
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Because Israel doesn't have them too.
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Nice effort but you do realize this is complete bullshit right? Let’s say Hamas had the firepower of Israel and Israel had the firepower of Hamas. What do you think would happen to Israel were the balance of power reversed?
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Nov 18, 2014 23:45
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SinetheGuy posted:Do you think the ideologies of each party arose completely independently of the material state of affairs between them and the history of how it got to this point? I don't care how nihilist idealogues arose, I care that they have to die because their actions impact others. So, instead of handwaving the question away, if the balance of power were reversed today, what would happen? Don't be naive in this consideration.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:49
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Hamas would do exactly what Israel is doing now. The exact same thing as Israel? No, not at all. They'd be doing the exact same thing as ISIS.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:54
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:No, not at all. They'd be doing the exact same thing as Israel. Based upon what evidence? Their words, their actions, their endorsements ring different. Hamas is a totalitarian facist organization and must be understood as such when formulating policy to deal with their terror attacks. The more they martyr, the stronger they become.
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Nov 19, 2014 00:04
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CommieGIR posted:Versus an oppresive apartheid extreme conservative colonial power Its not a what-if. You must bash the fash no matter how 'anti-colonialist' they claim to be.
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Nov 19, 2014 00:09
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Who What Now posted:And if they had either or both Palestine would be a charnel house before you could say "war crimes". They have both, for the time the cost is too high. The continuation of Palestinian attacks enhances the cycle of demonization and creates an outlet for anger on both sides. Israel's leaders are willing to step up and say, "Attacks on holy sites are wrong, no if ands or buts." I fail to see any Palestinian political organization coming out with such statements.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:17
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CommieGIR posted:Nobody engage MIGF please. Prisoners and members of organizations which Israel releases have a tendancy to go on to commit terrorist attacks and take Jews hostage.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:24
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fade5 posted:Really, as soon as the US stops unconditionally supporting Israel, that's pretty much it for Israel being able to do whatever the hell the want. (It's probably still going to take far too long for this to happen.) Enter Russia and China unconditionally supporting Israel, in exchange for precise monetary conditions. Would you really like to see Israel have "no connection to the actions of the West Bank Sepratists in the People's Republic of Palestine"?
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Nov 19, 2014 01:28
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Job Truniht posted:You misunderstood what I said. Israel can't because their military capabilities are extremely limited. They lack the resources to completely occupy Gaza or invade southern Lebanon. Both Hamas and Hezbollah have the means of preventing Israel from ever entering a protracted engagement and occupation- a prerequisite for any ambitions of genocide. A mosque with a weapons cache is defiled ground, and not a holy site. Who needs to occupy, if the situation deteriorates to the point where chemical weapon use is authorized?
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Nov 19, 2014 01:35
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CommieGIR posted:But 161 of them? And Hospitals? And bomb shelters? Yes, 161 of them. It certainly seems like there is a trend where Israel will attack any weapons cache brought to its attention, therefore Hamas creates weapons caches and launch targets around points with pre-positioned recording for propaganda purposes.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:39
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CommieGIR posted:Oh shut up, your hypocrisy is showing. Others in the region get to use chemical weapons without losing foreign support; why can't Israel? -- an argument I anticipate to be used in serious policy discussions within a decade
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Nov 19, 2014 01:41
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DarkCrawler posted:Israel is a first world state who is protected by United States, in the age of 24/7 news networks in one of the most followed regions in the world. They can't actually engage in genocide without a massive economic and military backlash that would destroy them as a functional state and have no reason for doing such a suicidal maneuver. Anyone who thinks that is something that would happen doesn't know anything about the conflict or the international realities involved. Engaging in some fantasy where Israel kills just because it wants to kill doesn't do good for anybody. quote:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/world/middleeast/killings-in-jerusalem-synagogue-complex.html?referrer=&_r=0
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Nov 19, 2014 01:55
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:So I'm wondering, will these random, spontaneous actions start coalescing into an organized movement or stay dispersed? I mean it seems like an obvious outgrowth of intense dissatisfaction with Abbas, are there any chance to see another Hamas like organization spring up as a more radical large scale alternative to the PLO and Hamas that has become slightly tempered with authority? It will be a hybrid of the two: sporatic, spontaneous actions--with no pattern or predictability other than being carried out by Arabs against Israelis--will occur in Israel in conjunction with more organized attacks meant to provoke more spontaneous attacks.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:58
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DarkCrawler posted:Nothing to do with what you asked for. Statements were made, if he doesn't hold to them in reality any more the Israel does, that's not my problem If you cannot see the context with Jewish presence at the temple mount being a "contamination" of the site in the eyes of Arabs, I cannot help you.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:00
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Xandu posted:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/world/middleeast/killings-in-jerusalem-synagogue-complex.html?referrer=&_r=0 I realize this would put me on the super fringe in Israel (since most Jews think it'd be profane to pray at the site), but as a not particularly religious Jew, I sort of feel like if someone wants to pray there, they should let them, regardless of their religion. [/quote] I agree that individuals should have the right to pray in a respectful and dignified manner at the sites historically considered holy under their established religion, without being seen as improper by others at similar sites. Unfortunately, both sides have been demonized to the point where stated-enforced segregation is becoming a necessity; its a viscious cycle, as segregation begets dehumanization begets terrorism begets extreme retaliation begets segregation.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:16
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CommieGIR posted:Its almost as if being an oppressive apartheid state has issues Use a definition of "oppressive apartheid state" which is narrow enough to not apply to all states in the region yet broad enough to not be reduced to 'because Jews.'
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Nov 19, 2014 02:25
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Ah the old "Israel isn't literally South Africa so it can't described as an apartheid state and therefore has never done anything wrong" line of reasoning. Israel does plenty of wrong. Nation-states exist to deprive individuals of absolute liberty, for absolute liberty is anarchy. The question is, why is Israel held to a higher standard in its wrongs than other states in the world, much less the region? E: Kim Jong Il posted:This attack wasn't about settlements. East Jerusalem residents, spurred by nationalism, murdered West Jerusalem residents in cold blood. Not only does it serve no functional end, it's likely that a lot of Palestinians will die in retaliation, and the homes of the alleged murderers will be demolished. Defending/apologizing for this is ghastly, and it's hypocritical too for the subset of those people who rightly complain when Israel is in the wrong. The appropriate response.
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Nov 19, 2014 03:16
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CommieGIR posted:That is very bad reasoning. Are you saying that if Israeli authorities allowed everyone in Israel free access to the temple mount, it wouldn't result in a lot of blood spilled?
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Nov 19, 2014 03:21
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CommieGIR posted:What the gently caress does that have to do with your spiel about 'Nation states existing to deprive their citizens of liberty'. Nothing. But, no, the oppressive government probably shouldn't be oppressive. Sometimes, oppression is necessary. Democratic nations exist to ensure that a population has some say in determining when those times are necessary, and to make oppression about more than "gently caress you give me what I want," where what you want could be anything. SedanChair posted:Don't you understand the danger of letting Muslims pray to their god too close to the shrine of power? The Dragon Ball will float right out and they'll put it in their knapsack. More like, "Suicide bombings at the Wailing Wall would be very bad. So, too, would be hasidic mobs tearing down the dome of the rock."
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Nov 19, 2014 03:25
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TEAYCHES posted:both sides having equal culpability and power in the israel/palestine conflict, Fine. If you want to make it unequal, only jews at wailing wall and hasidim are free to do what they want on the temple mount. That's the alternative policy option available to state-enforced segregation. Do you want that? Is that what you would like to see?
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Nov 19, 2014 03:29
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CommieGIR posted:I mean, at this point, to justify his really poor comparison: If the protestors in Ferguson begin launching homemade rockets at Clayton, and refused to police themselves and shot at anyone coming in to disarm them, you'd see one hell of a response. TEAYCHES posted:hint: its not actually about the temple mount/al aqsa.. its a symptom... to ~*~*~a deeper cause~*~*~.. a long and storied history..... Of religious heresies deviating from obediance to the laws of god?
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Nov 19, 2014 03:33
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CommieGIR posted:What, the B-52s would warm up and carpet bomb them? First you send in state guard with authorization to use force. If that fails, you send in the army; if that fails, you wall off the area; if that fails, you continue targeted strikes in response to any continued attacks; if that fails, you cut off the food, water, and sustinance utilities to the area; if that fails, you level the neighborhood and show the world your shame for having to use the M108 when you came bearing an olive branch as a viable alternative.
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Nov 19, 2014 03:39
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Panzeh posted:MIGF thinks Israel was created as the result of a 2000 year long strategy and the Palestinians should adopt a similar 'approach'. If their cause is truly about something more than earthly hatreds and desires, it will survive the test of time. TEAYCHES posted:israel is completely willing to stop expanding settlements if ...no Arab attack is carried out against Israel for 2 election cycles.
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Nov 19, 2014 03:44
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Sudden Loud Noise posted:If only. I think if you replaced "Europeans" with "anti-Semites," you'll be closer to the talking points.
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Nov 19, 2014 04:01
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JeffersonClay posted:It's unfortunately not just the GOP who supports Israel. 65 percent of Americans support Israel versus 15 percent for Palestine. I think most Americans think Palestinian=terrorist, and I dare say tactics like indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations are unlikely to move that number in the right direction. Its kinda hard to sympathize with indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations, yet folks in this thread find reasons to justify these acts. There are no justifications. Everyone in the region is poo poo. Israel happens to be slightly less poo poo to Americans than others, so you have widespread American support for Israel. What I fear, and what I'm sure many fear, is that this intifada is a combination of organized goading and truly random, sporadic attacks. How long will those attacks remain in the ME? Will they spread, and what happens if they do?
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Nov 19, 2014 19:18
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DarkCrawler posted:It doesn't matter, because younger Americans don't give any more of a poo poo about the conflict then they do about anything else in the ME. At best it would raise awaraness for few months and then fade away, and Israel's inevitable massacres wouldn't exactly increase their support. America doesn't actually have to become anti-Israel for the rest of the world to deal with them, it just has to become ambivalent. Look at America's policy history in sub-saharan Africa to see what happens when policy becomes ambivalent on outcomes. America has done, and continues to do, business with far worse actors than Israel.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:32
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Crowsbeak posted:Well my tax dollars arn't paying for them. Nor do they like to make claims about being some outpost of western civilization that Israel does. Yes, they are, and yes, they do, as much as if not more than Israel. If you think America gives away anything for free, you're wrong; sometimes, America will discount exports and provide them at-cost. At worst, we'll intervene when non-intervention threatens to show us video of starving and dying children in the street, or when it will impact our broader interests. Usually, Americans on this board don't pay attention to those, yet pay disproportionate attention to Israel. Effectronica posted:The idea that this tragedy was a tactical action aimed at liberating Palestine seems improbable, unless you think Palestine is a totalitarian state. It was a random attack more about ~personal honor~ than ~jurisprudence~. I condemn all honor killings, for personal consideration has little place in national policy. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 19:49
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Zeitgueist posted:Israel isn't the worst regime that the USA has supported. It's just pretty bad. because there are no good solutions to the I/P conflict, so its a matter of promoting the least-worst policies and living with their results. Crowsbeak posted:The others also don't lead to huge blowback, which being the obedient boytoy of Israel does. Also I really do want us to require these clients to be more moral than they currently are. There is tremendous blowback against American interests. If you think this weeks' mosque raids and ethnic strife in Kenya won't have American blowback, you're not familiar with the situation.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:53
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down with slavery posted:I'm pretty sure grasping at straws is kinda MGIF's gimmick. Number of Israeli imams that are known to have been 'disappeared' by Israel to American torture sites this week: Yet many here think America cares about something more than its interests and securing business.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:02
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Zeitgueist posted:Haha no that's exactly what we think America cares about. What policy options are realistic to deal with the current intifada which do not impede upon those considerations?
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Nov 19, 2014 20:06
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CommieGIR posted:You brought up nukes. MIGF will now tell you about his wonderful plan to nuke Iran. Iranian acquisition of nuclear weapons is unacceptable to American policy, and will be prevented by force when necessary. As for the latter, that impedes upon American interests and business, therefore is unrealistic. What other proposals do you have? Zeitgueist posted:You're not presenting a new or interesting argument and I don't even really get your point. Nor do these threads present any realistic policy alternatives for managing the current situation.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:08
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Effectronica posted:American policy is not eternal, and American interests and businesses are too diverse for the US to do anything without impeding on them in some way, so the correct answer is to go gently caress yourself. Yes, I think you've made a good assessment of American policy towards Palestinians.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:12
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