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Pacho posted:It's more like 50% of venezuelans wanted him gone in a certain point of time, threw huge marches, lost because they don't have tanks and left the country, so there's little political will left. Chavez/Maduro is akin to a natural disaster, you can't fight it, just look for a way to move on. When the first waves of venezuelan refugees came here, they were very political, attacking Maduro all the time, etc. The Guaido business was the high point, a lot of them thought that it was THE moment, but alas, the guy had the charisma and political acumen of a potato and US foreign policy under Trump is all bark and no bite. Now the venezuelans I meet don't talk politics anymore, they kinda accepted that they will live in Peru for a long time or eventually move to a better place, it's pretty sad, but is not uncommon here in Latin America. Most of my family left for other countries in the 80s and early 90s during the Aprocalipsis. What's uncommon is how long and how deep the venezuelan crisis has gone I personally don't talk about the situation any more outside of this thread. And you're right, it's outlasted even the worst expectations. It's just so loving exhausting to have your hopes lifted that the crisis is going to end now only to have them taken away from you over, and over, and over again. You just face the hopelessness, worry about your own poo poo, and slowly tune out the news. My friends there seem to be equally resigned to their fate, they haven't really kept up with the opposition, not even the one I've said has his father in prison. I just realized how sad it is that the only place I get to speak about my country any more is this lovely thread with no moderation where 1 out of every 5 new posts are just some form of insult towards me.
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Aug 28, 2019 19:24
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Bob le Moche posted:Love to attribute agency to victims so they can be victim-blamed for their situation Ah, so the guy who has been in power for 6 years who had extremely close ties to the guy who was in charge for 14 years before him has nothing to do with the situation the country has found itself in, good to know. There's such an egotism to a US-centric view of the crisis, like every country only ever suffers or prospers at the behest of the US government. Internal strife can only ever be a vast conspiracy, and the US is immediately the most important factor in any crisis the moment it starts weighing in. Like I get that the current administration doesn't have good intentions, but trying to stifle most discussion with "well, all that matters is that the US should get out" isn't useful to listen to.
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Aug 28, 2019 20:06
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fnox posted:They did actually. There’s been large scale protests during this entire crisis, some having attendance in the millions. what
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Aug 28, 2019 20:09
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BigFactory posted:You seem to be under the impression that he looks good in the eyes of the people. This is not true. He’s extremely good at crushing opposition though. Well no, I believe that he is very unpopular, and that 60 or 70% of Venezuelans want him gone. But the minority that does support a government that unpopular is still enough to make it possible to suppress opposition with the military. If 90% of the people want the government to step down, they can render the country ungovernable. At that point you can't even count on the military, they are either being ordered to fire on their friends and family or the soldiers themselves agree with the opposition. That's where you see higher-ups in the regime turn on the unpopular leader because it's in their interest to oust him to preserve their own power and return order to the country, or that's where you see the army rank-and-file switch sides and start shooting officers. This is the same mistake the US planners made in Iraq. A majority of Iraqis were Shia and opposed Saddam's minority Sunni regime, but Saddam still had a core of loyal support, and also the Shia themselves didn't support a US occupation. So the result of regime change was civil war, you had an insurrection against the US puppet government, and even after they successfully kicked the US out, the Shia majority government faced another civil war with the Sunni fundamentalist rebellion calling itself ISIS. fnox posted:There’s no way this plan is workable with Maduro in power. What you’re describing is things that should occur after Maduro is removed from power. But if you forgive the debts yet keep him around what you’ll do is just give him a lifeline to stay in power for longer. I disagree. Right now Maduro has a core of support, even if it's a minority, and he can claim to be defending the country from the US and the IMF and NATO trying to strangle their economy with sanctions and onerous debt collection. If the US or the EU helped and supported Venezuela instead of punishing it with sanctions, Maduro's narrative would be less convincing. If the crisis doesn't abate because he's a terrible ruler he won't have any external enemy against which to rally support. But it sounds like you are concerned that the crisis would abate, and that conditions for Venezuelans would improve and that this would be bad because it wouldn't accomplish your political goal of removing Maduro from power. Frankly I'm having a hard time understanding your position. You say ending sanctions, or providing foreign aid, or debt forgiveness won't help Venezuelans because the problem is Maduro and as long as he's in power conditions will continue to get worse. But then you also say that doing any of these things will give him a lifeline to remain in power, which would seem to imply that they would help ordinary Venezuelans. Really I don't get what you want. You wanted my opinion on what to do to oust Maduro, I gave it, and you didn't like it. Fine. But you don't seem to have a better idea, you seem to spend all your time shooting down every possible remedy as unworkable except foreign military intervention which you say you also don't want. So I don't know what to do with that.
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Aug 28, 2019 20:12
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Bob le Moche posted:So was Nicholas II. I think you'll find that historically general strikes are more likely to happen under conditions of oppression, not less. Especially in places that still have active organized labour institutions like Venezuela. Weren’t the Bolsheviks bankrolled by Germany?
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Aug 28, 2019 20:24
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fnox posted:I just realized how sad it is that the only place I get to speak about my country any more is this lovely thread with no moderation where 1 out of every 5 new posts are just some form of insult towards me. maybe you could try making posts that aren't bullshit lies about "millions of protesters"
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Aug 28, 2019 20:47
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Kurnugia posted:maybe you could try making posts that aren't bullshit lies about "millions of protesters" he's right though the biggest 2016 protests (around the recall referendum that the very legitimate and non-partisan CNE torpedoed) were in the million+ range, and the protests after the Supreme Court neutered the National Assembly in 2017 were multiple millions
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Aug 28, 2019 20:57
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Kurnugia posted:what The biggest protests of the past few years were anti-government. Its hard to get real estimates but when they were going on they were described by some sources as a million+ people. I'm guessing you werent following Venezuela at all during the last big round of marches?
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Aug 28, 2019 21:03
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BigFactory posted:Weren’t the Bolsheviks bankrolled by Germany? how does it feel to unthinkingly mirror russian propaganda? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssDj0HDbXXg
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Aug 28, 2019 23:26
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GoluboiOgon posted:how does it feel to unthinkingly mirror russian propaganda? It’s been a bunch of years since I studied Russian history. I think back to the yeltsin years. Did Putin travel back in time to put that in my memory?
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Aug 29, 2019 01:15
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Kurnugia posted:maybe you could try making posts that aren't bullshit lies about "millions of protesters" You are an idiot. e: lol this is the same guy that somehow avoided getting permabanned for posting my little pony porn AGGGGH BEES fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 01:16
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AGGGGH BEES posted:You are an idiot. jesus loving christ. what is wrong with you kuringa?
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Aug 29, 2019 01:52
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Elias_Maluco posted:"theres no racism because we are mostly mixed" is a really bad argument It's pretty bad https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1100628606978482176 https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1105208066100744192
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Aug 29, 2019 02:02
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BigFactory posted:It’s been a bunch of years since I studied Russian history. I think back to the yeltsin years. Did Putin travel back in time to put that in my memory?
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Aug 29, 2019 03:56
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420 Gank Mid posted:It's pretty bad Alright so you’re just gonna dodge me now? Wasn’t any point in engaging with you before, I have much less of a reason now. Both of these things are fake. “Mico mandante” is a play on words on “mi comandante”, Chavez preferred title. The implication is that he’s a brute, not that he’s somehow not human. The other thing is a real murder that isn’t actually race related, the government made that up. The hideously racist opposition is somehow only guilty of two things in 20 years, and they’re both false. But I mean your source is loving Boots Riley for both of those statements so that explains a lot.
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Aug 29, 2019 05:44
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Bob le Moche posted:It's been a right-wing russian propaganda talking point since even before 1917 Can you prove that?
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Aug 29, 2019 09:27
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Never mind
Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 09:35
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BigFactory posted:Can you prove that? I can't speak with too much authority on this question, but the German government straight up put Lenin and some of his fellow exiles on a special diplomatically sealed train car and sent them back to Russia in order to destabilize the government. I don't know how much (if any) influence they had on his subsequent actions but the fact that they sent him home to gently caress poo poo up seems undisputed. On the subject of Venezuela, I'd be curious what Gank Mid thinks about the Maduro government's mistreatment and murder of the indigenous population, as they seem fixated on the question of racism.
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Aug 29, 2019 10:57
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Giggle Goose posted:the German government straight up put Lenin and some of his fellow exiles on a special diplomatically sealed train car and sent them back to Russia in order to destabilize the government. So what you're saying is that Kaiser Wilhelm was a dumbass autocrat who wasn't thinking in any way rationally and believed the loving Bolsheviks would be completely submissive to German hegemony after he won the war, right? That really worked out well for him. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 29, 2019 12:45
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Venomous posted:So what you're saying is that Kaiser Wilhelm was a dumbass autocrat who wasn't thinking in any way rationally and believed the loving Bolsheviks would be completely submissive to German hegemony after he won the war, right? That really worked out well for him. I think the larger point is that tyrannical governments with rarely get overthrown just with an uprising of the civilians/general strikes and zero outside interference.
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Aug 29, 2019 13:08
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Venomous posted:So what you're saying is that Kaiser Wilhelm was a dumbass autocrat who wasn't thinking in any way rationally and believed the loving Bolsheviks would be completely submissive to German hegemony after he won the war, right? That really worked out well for him. What I'm saying is that Germany put Lenin on a train and sent him back to Russia. I have no idea what the Kaiser held in his mind and I'm not making a value judgment here, just stating an accepted historical fact. No doubt a historian of the field in question could further expand on the topic.
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Aug 29, 2019 13:14
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Venomous posted:So what you're saying is that Kaiser Wilhelm was a dumbass autocrat who wasn't thinking in any way rationally and believed the loving Bolsheviks would be completely submissive to German hegemony after he won the war, right? That really worked out well for him. I agree, Brest-Litovsk was an amazing deal for the Kaiser.
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Aug 29, 2019 13:35
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420 Gank Mid posted:It's pretty bad When did Boots Riley become some kind of definite source on anything? The guy is a Tienanmen Square truther.
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Aug 29, 2019 18:42
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Had no idea that sort of person existed.
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Aug 29, 2019 19:50
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Elias_Maluco posted:"theres no racism because we are mostly mixed" is a really bad argument If you want to get a sense for it, you can easily do a quick twitter search for "venezuela racism" and find plenty of twitter-using venezuelans insisting that there's no such thing as racism in Venezuela Bob le Moche posted:Did a quick search for "venezuela racism" on twitter here are some immediate results from just the last few weeks:
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Aug 29, 2019 19:59
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One habit I can say I've watched become severely ingrained into the anglo-paternalism for venezuela is an insistence of describing Venezuelan race issues to Venezuelans as if race issues in Venezuela were perfectly described using the model of race issues in majority white countries like the US or the UK. This has (as usual) been expressed most often with the suspect pattern of PSUV apologists utilizing paternalistic and not-exactly-robustly-researched concern for the Plight of the Poor Afrovenezuelan, so it's been one of the frequently retread parts of the venezuela thread history. And it's familiar to me, having watched many do the same to where I'm from in the weirdest, whitest ways.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:41
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536 posted:When did Boots Riley become some kind of definite source on anything? The guy is a Tienanmen Square truther. He also said recently that Afghanistan was never invaded by Soviet troops. He does not seem to have much idea of how things work outside of America, let alone of that in Venezuela.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:51
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You complain about the tankie label yet do this poo poo? All I have in common with those people is my nationality, I didn’t say there’s no racism in Venezuela, I said there’s no history of racist crime for political purposes such as in America, and that the Orlando Figuera murder is only painted as a hate crime by American twitter lefties, not even the Public Ministry investigated it as a hate crime. Unless you mean to tell me that the hundreds of other mob murders that occurred around the same time are all hate crimes, at a time when Caracas was the undisputed murder capital of the world and citizens lived under such loving terror of criminals they would lash out at anyone deemed a thief if they got the chance. In a country where 99% of crime goes unpunished, and where you have some of the highest criminality in the world, you’re going to get societal degeneration of that kind. Kavros posted:One habit I can say I've watched become severely ingrained into the anglo-paternalism for venezuela is an insistence of describing Venezuelan race issues to Venezuelans as if race issues in Venezuela were perfectly described using the model of race issues in majority white countries like the US or the UK. This has (as usual) been expressed most often with the suspect pattern of PSUV apologists utilizing paternalistic and not-exactly-robustly-researched concern for the Plight of the Poor Afrovenezuelan, so it's been one of the frequently retread parts of the venezuela thread history. It gets way more offensive when you see the same people being completely unwilling to talk about the military’s horrendous and racist treatment of indigenous peoples, including massacres like the one at Santa Elena de Uairen. Tons of border communities, which unsurprisingly are mostly comprised of indigenous tribes, have been forcibly relocated by the military, sometimes having entire villages put into military control. fnox fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 21:38
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fnox posted:It gets way more offensive when you see the same people being completely unwilling to talk about the military’s horrendous and racist treatment of indigenous peoples, including massacres like the one at Santa Elena de Uairen. Tons of border communities, which unsurprisingly are mostly comprised of indigenous tribes, have been forcibly relocated by the military, sometimes having entire villages put into military control. None of these things are justification for US sanctions or military intervention, and Venezuela has rational cause to be suspicious of US-sourced aid. While I actually sympathize somewhat with the desire to "do something," the US is not in a position to be a reliable source of aid. It is a hostile actor as far as most of the global south is concerned. The only thing the US could reasonably do to improve the situation is to maybe offer material aid through a trustworthy third party or no-strings-attached financial aid, but the US will not have leadership acting in good faith at any point in the foreseeable future (unless Bernie Sanders is elected president, I suppose, though even then the government would still probably be filled with the sort of people who are hostile towards the interests of the global south). Basically, if aid is to be desired from anyone, the US does not make sense as the place to seek it. Sometimes there are no obvious answers. There probably isn't a way to remove Maduro with the aid of external forces (either economic or military) that wouldn't just cause more harm. And anyone who really cares about the country and its people should be focusing their efforts on opposing sanctions and military intervention (which the majority of Venezuelans actually living in Venezuela also oppose), instead of getting angry at the minority of people on the left who oppose those things. Anyone who is more annoyed with the left than they are the mainstream Democratic and Republican politicians and organizations who support economic/military intervention needs to take a step back and think long and hard about their motivations and priorities.
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Aug 30, 2019 05:22
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fnox posted:But I mean your source is loving Boots Riley for both of those statements so that explains a lot. e: also 'spoilers' but Boots Riley did not invent that racist cartoon in the tweet, it was made by a regular venezuelan racist 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 05:49
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420 Gank Mid posted:Another black man you won't listen to? He's a dude that made a good movie but also defends fascist autocrats on twitter. Why should you listen to him? Oh he's also a Ghouta truther.
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Aug 30, 2019 06:04
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Ytlaya posted:None of these things are justification for US sanctions or military intervention, and Venezuela has rational cause to be suspicious of US-sourced aid. Nobody here is supporting a military invasion. I’m sick of arguing this over and over. Get a new talking point, or catch up with the thread. Ask Cuba to send aid, whatever, I don’t give a poo poo, just get someone to do something. Why is nobody else doing anything, why aren’t leftists collaborating with the Venezuelan government to find food if they’re supposedly under a blockade? Why is there so much inaction? Do you really expect me to give two hot fucks about whatever partisan shenanigans are going on in your country when mine has been under a crisis for almost 7 years, with the left being consistently on the side of the people who’ve made this worse and worse? Who really needs their priorities checked? “Venezuela should be suspicious of US aid”, while people starve? You must have been coddled so much as a child, that’s absolutely a statement to make from a position of privilege, “better to starve than to aid imperialism!”. If your house was burning down you wouldn’t ask the firefighters who they voted for before they go put the fire out. Priorities. 420 Gank Mid posted:Another black man you won't listen to? I don’t listen to people who argue complete bullshit, no, and I particularly don’t listen to takes from Americans about my country that contradict basic facts. You can tell the accusation is false by how nobody ever called Chavez a monkey, they called him “mico mandante”. The play on words doesn’t work without the whole thing, had he picked anything else it’d be literally anything, “Maburro” is a common one nowadays, play on words, Maduro doesn’t look like a donkey, but he’s as dumb as an rear end. The physical characteristic that Chavez had that was the source of jokes at his expense was the wart on his head, as far as I’m aware of. This supposed overwhelming racism of the opposition is completely unsubstantiated, it’s only seriously believed by idiots on twitter such as yourself. You’re never going to talk about the indigenous peoples, will you? It really doesn’t loving matter to you does it? It’s legitimately shocking to me how you straight up duck that. fnox fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 06:32
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If the US can give North Korea aid every now and then, it can give Venezuela aid. It's not like there's some mystic curse on it. Just because the current administration does not have good intentions does not mean every administration will somehow be irrevocably tainted so aid turns into like a swarm of spiders or something. Heck, it's technically possible for the US government to change its position right now without the need to convince the administration, because technically congress is supposed to have the power to revoke sanctions on their own. Write your congressman. The same congress that has the power to withhold permission for military action. What really bugs me is how the assumption that all US interaction is inherently malicious and delegitimizes any opposition or criticism is one of Maduro's talking points, so it does sometimes feel like uncritically taking propaganda for granted. Even worse is when results of government mismanagement and protests against the government start getting attributed to CIA plots or something like that.
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Aug 30, 2019 16:22
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fnox posted:I don't reject it, so much as I think it's a plan for the future of the country after Maduro, not something that will get Maduro removed. He doesn't need a do-over, he needs to go, then we can start rebuilding. I genuinely have no idea what you are advocating and I've been trying to figure it out for months now. Half the time you seem to think that literally anything other than removing Maduro is pointless and shouldn't even be discussed, but you get angry when people interpret this as advocating a violent overthrow of the government. So what do you actually want? fnox posted:I don’t listen to people who argue complete bullshit, no, and I particularly don’t listen to takes from Americans about my country that contradict basic facts. You can tell the accusation is false by how nobody ever called Chavez a monkey, they called him “mico mandante”. The play on words doesn’t work without the whole thing, had he picked anything else it’d be literally anything, “Maburro” is a common one nowadays, play on words, Maduro doesn’t look like a donkey, but he’s as dumb as an rear end. You're saying that nobody ever called Chavez a monkey and that there's no racist aspect to comments about his appearance? SlothfulCobra posted:If the US can give North Korea aid every now and then, it can give Venezuela aid. It's not like there's some mystic curse on it. Just because the current administration does not have good intentions does not mean every administration will somehow be irrevocably tainted so aid turns into like a swarm of spiders or something. It's not an assumption though, it is a hypothesis that is based on a lot of historical examples. In other words it is a debatable proposition and despite the complaints of some people comments like yours make it really clear that this discussion is unavoidable. There's no way to talk about events in an oil rich and internally divided Latin American country without talking about the role of American economic and military power in the region and its history.
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Aug 30, 2019 17:15
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Let me just write my senators..ahhh...John Cornyn and Ted Cruz, I'm sure a letter from me will grow their hearts three sizes
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Aug 30, 2019 18:08
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Gervasius posted:He's a dude that made a good movie but also defends fascist autocrats on twitter. Why should you listen to him? So do you believe he falsified the racist cartoon?
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Aug 31, 2019 01:17
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420 Gank Mid posted:So do you believe he falsified the racist cartoon? Does one racist cartoon speak for an entire country? That’s kind of a stretch, don’t you think?
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Aug 31, 2019 01:29
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Helsing posted:You're saying that nobody ever called Chavez a monkey and that there's no racist aspect to comments about his appearance? Is calling someone a monkey inherently a racist insult? Is it still racist if the writer of the comic isn't white? Do you understand the context of that specific cartoon? 536 fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Aug 31, 2019 |
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Aug 31, 2019 01:40
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BigFactory posted:Does one racist cartoon speak for an entire country? That’s kind of a stretch, don’t you think? Nothing speaks for "an entire country" so stop moving the goalposts 536 posted:Is calling someone a monkey inherently a racist insult? Is it still racist if the writer of the comic isn't white? Please tell me more about when its OK to call someone of african descent a monkey as a means of political degradation and public humiliation.
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Aug 31, 2019 01:50
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420 Gank Mid posted:Nothing speaks for "an entire country" so stop moving the goalposts Where are the goalposts? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 31, 2019 02:04
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