Winning: The Habits of Highly Effective Coaches, A containment zone

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Football Funhouse > Winning: The Habits of Highly Effective Coaches, A containment zone

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

So from what I read literally nothing the Patriots did aside from continuing to tape signals from the sidelines past the 2006 memo was actually against the rules. The rumors of stealing playsheets and poo poo have been around for years with literally no evidence to cooberate it. Which is what has been known for years. Why is this news?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 18:30

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 23:03

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Explain the spies in the airport lol

I must have missed that part in the article. What is it?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 18:34

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/08/patriots-cheating-suspicions-bill-belichick-tom-brady?xid=si_social

Oh I only read the ESPN piece, that's why I missed it.

That's pretty creepy but again not against the rules?

AAA DOLFAN posted:

Lol SJ to save the day and deny it like a true soldier

The only thing I denied is the allegations that the Patriots were stealing play call sheets which, at this point, has literally nothing to support it. Of course the Patriots were taping signals from 2000-2007 and then mixing and matching them afterwards. But that isn't against the rules.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 18:49

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

lol

Stealing signals has never been against the rules though? Where you can try and steal them from is, and was clarified in the 2006 memo. So?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 18:55

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

NC-17 posted:

Do you and Starcraft have some kind of murder suicide pact?

I can't loving stand Starcraft, there's a reason he managed to get forced out of GBS for being so awful. I mean, he's too awful of a poster for GBS. Just think about that for a second.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 18:57

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

MY NIGGA D-LINK posted:

Stealing play sheets out of locker rooms and sending low level employees in NFL Films shirts or home team fan gear to tape practices with hand cams is sketchy as gently caress no matter how uou rationalize it, d00d

Stealing play sheets would be quite a damning thing, but where exactly is there any evidence that it ever occurred besides the paranoid suspicions of unnamed sources?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 18:59

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Ozu posted:

It's ultimately rooted in Belichick getting into a pissing match with Parcells about how much control he'd have in New York.

Lots of turf war stuff since then but when the major poo poo went down, the Hess estate hadn't even sold the team to Woody yet.

Border War poo poo.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 19:04

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

If so Shimrra would admit he did it but then backpeddle to saying its not against the rules

What are you talking about? If its against the rules to steal a playsheet (which I would bet it is in some way, whether directly or indirectly) then its cheating plain and simple. I wouldn't defend it. I just ask for some type of evidence that it was ever actually done.

Taping signals: Not against the rules
Stealing playbooks: Almost surely against the rules in many ways
Interfering with wireless communication: Definitely against the rules and probably FCC regulations

If the latter two happened then thats pretty bad. But we've been hearing it for literally close to a decade and nothing has ever come out about it.

It's not that hard.

and yeah yeah yeah

lol

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 19:10

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

WobblySausage posted:

This kind of stuff bothers me. The NCAA sucks nearly as badly or maybe worse, but at least they have the power to deal with it.

I don't care if all teams do it. Entire season's wins should be vacated for blatant cheating. No rule in the book for it one year? Make one with a decisive punishment the next. Perhaps organizations need yearly integrity audits or something. The whole drat thing is corrupt from the top down; the NFL is a farce, and it frankly makes me want to stop watching. This type of poo poo hurts everyone - whether your team benefited from it, or not. Who wants to watch dirty games all the time? It removes the competitive spirit.

Competitive spirit? Man you're watching the wroooong sport.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 19:20

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

MY NIGGA D-LINK posted:

Among the bombshells discussed in the article is that the "tape library" include footage of up to 40 games, not the 8 Goodell claimed, as well as hand drawn formation sketches of specific defensive calls, particularly one that lead directly to a 60 td from Brady to Deion Branch in the 2004 AFCCG

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

But that's not a bombshell, or even anything new?

The Patriots played the Steelers in the regular season.

After getting their asses kicked they studied the film like every single team in the sport does after every single game. They also studied their own taping that they did focusing on the defensive signals that the Steelers used.

Cue the AFCCG and the Patriots immediately notice that hey, the Steelers are literally doing the exact same things they did in the previous game. So they chaos dunk on them because why not? Should they pretend that they don't recognize what the Steelers defense is doing?

This literally isn't cheating. Its not even bending the rules.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 19:37

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Ehud posted:

I'm confused as to why you're being kind of dismissive about the new allegations. You're saying, "If we did that, that would be pretty bad" and I feel like the implication that follows your statement is something like, "...but there is no evidence to suggest that it's anything but rumors"

But the source for the article was "several former Patriots coaches/employees"

If the article said, "Some teams around the league think the Patriots may have blah blah blah" then that's one thing. But these are former Patriots people who are saying the team did this shady stuff.

Unnamed sources are a complete toss up at best. Just look at the Mort report that said conclusively that 11/12 balls were deflated by at least 2.0 PSI per league sources. And then 4 months later the league gives the correct numbers and they turn out to be completely different.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 19:40

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

MY NIGGA D-LINK posted:

Well, my dude, it's one thing to witness it first hand and be suspicious forever, and entirely another to have it confirmed by former Patriots employees lol

By former Patriots employees who remain nameless and off the record. Who knows what their role in the team was if any. "per sources" is the journalistic partner of "im just asking questions"

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 19:43

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

By that logic Watergate wasn't a thing

Comparing this and the avalanche of information that came out from Deepthroat is disingenuous and you know it.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 19:48

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Burger Trench posted:

When Schefter talks about a player signing via his sources, do you believe him? Do you uniformly reject all news from unnamed sources, or only the totally believable ones about the Patriots cheating?

Schefter has a good personal track record. I consider a good track record being information from unnamed sources that later come out with evidence that there is truth to it. When Schefter says that some "source close to such and such a player" says that he is signing with X team and then he does, well that pretty conclusively solves that question.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:00

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

I understand the immense importance of anonymous sources in journalism and how critical they are for any real shot at investigative reporting in pretty much any context. I don't mean to diminish that even though I appear to be doing so.

Here, this part of an article by Charles Robinson (I have no idea who this is) on Yahoo sums up my feelings on the allegations. Take it or leave it if its reasonable to feel this way or not.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/latest-cheating-allegation-against-patriots-is-most-damning-of-all-180544622.html

quote:

But knowing the first 15 or 20 offensive plays scripted by an NFL team is knowing the future. The best defensive coaches can take that information and give you a very high likelihood of exactly where the football is going to go � even on passing plays. And if those same defensive coaches can disguise defensive looks well enough, it's possible they could coax a quarterback into throwing the ball right into an area where the defense wants it. Even if an opposing offense goes off script after a few plays, that's still a window where the defense would have an immensely higher percentage of disrupting a series or forcing a turnover.

This isn't just stealing a set of plays; it's stealing part of the game.

Now, does that mean the Patriots did it? I can't say. I have never heard this allegation before and I would be hard pressed to ever prove it without an employee � or multiple employees � saying they were the ones going into the locker rooms and lifting the sheets.

Is such a thing possible? It's hard to say. I can remember occasions where I have seen locker rooms with a door open during warm-ups and nobody inside. I have also seen locker rooms closely guarded by jacketed, walkie-talkie wielding employees who perch themselves in front of the doors and never leave. I'd say nowadays, the latter is the norm.

But 10 years ago? Who knows. Things were a lot looser back then. Journalists used to be able to go down to the field and mill around during team warm-ups. We could chat up executives or owners or even the occasional player. One time back in that era, I took a wrong turn prior to a game and walked into a locker room that had only one person inside: an armed security officer who was holding several dozen little bags filled with jewelry belonging to the players.

Is it feasible that during such an era, low-level employees like locker room attendants, ball boys and equipment managers could have been lifting game materials from the opposition? Sure. I could see that happening if a team was dumb enough to leave something so valuable lying around. But I'll also say this: for years I have tried to get players to tell me the first scripted play in a game. And in the spare few times I've been successful, I almost had to sign a confidentiality agreement to get it done.

What's striking about this supposed infraction is the absence of a major investigation. The New York Jets will "sting" the taping of play signals. The NFL will "sting" the deflation of footballs. But in this case, teams chose to create fake scripts instead? As hated as the Patriots were, it never occurred to anyone to put a camera in the locker room and catch this in the act? That's an oddity to me, particularly given how much gossiping goes on between NFL teams.

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:06

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Shimrra please respond to

Having never heard of him before today he sounds like a professional and credible journalist who has been awarded with a high honor based on a history of quality investigative research.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:12

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

meaning?

At the risk of falling into a "gotcha" type of thing it means that I believe he isn't outright fabricating information, that he was really told these things by people.

So launch an official independent investigation into the allegations. (Meaning not Ted Wells and Jeff Pash) Investigate if its true. Bring it to court if you want. Have Belichick testify under oath. I'd support it. If the allegations are found to be true then we know what the deal is and if they are found to be false then well, good.

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:16

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Like the Wells Report you totally 100% believe is true?

lol nice edit

When a federal judge specifically calls out the independence of the Wells Report, not once but multiple times, and then uses it as part of his basis for his ruling I think taking it with a large grain of salt is probably for the best.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Run an official independent investigation

*highly damning report is released from official independent investigation*

No, I mean a different official independent investigation

A federal court basically smacked down the Wells Report as not being independent. He literally used scare quote around the word independent in his ruling. This is something that literally happened. And the appeals court will most likely reaffirm it. You can say that the judge was wrong or corrupt or something but that would be even worse than me claiming that the investigative reporter is outright lying, which I am not doing.

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:21

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

And please don't compare me with Starcraft. The man donated money to Doobie's Doghouse for gods sake. There is literally no greater level of stupidity.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:25

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

TubeStank posted:

Lmao "I don't know who this guy is but here's an article I just found that runs contrary to a guy who has won two pulitzers and writes for a thing that won a peabody"

This is approaching StarcraftM levels of homerism

It doesn't run contrary to the OTL report at all. It says simply that if true its horribly damning (I agree) but at the same time that nothing has been proven yet. The allegations have been made. Now look into them. Is that wrong?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:29

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Spoeank posted:

Hahahahahahah gently caress off

That's Jerry Thornton. He's a failed standup comic and all around 'special' individual.

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:30

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Considering the last time the allegations were investigated you denied them, yes

Let me quote this again because you apparently skipped over it.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

When a federal judge specifically calls out the independence of the Wells Report, not once but multiple times, and then uses it as part of his basis for his ruling I think taking it with a large grain of salt is probably for the best.

A federal court basically smacked down the Wells Report as not being independent. He literally used scare quote around the word independent in his ruling. This is something that literally happened. And the appeals court will most likely reaffirm it. You can say that the judge was wrong or corrupt or something but that would be even worse than me claiming that the investigative reporter is outright lying, which I am not doing.

A longtime, and by all accounts, reputable and upstanding federal judge in the NFL's own chosen venue publicly derided the Wells Report as not being truly independent in both court hearings and in his final judgement. Are you saying he's wrong? You can, but you'd literally be doing what you claim I'm doing with that investigative reporter.

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:35

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

TubeStank posted:

Considering otl has multiple coaches and employees stating that it was something they did it seems pretty gosh darn likely that it is something they did. Hell they even have a patriots assistant coach saying that they scrambled and jammed the other team's radio lines.

Sorry my man but the patriots are dirty cheaters

Alright, so we circle back to what I was saying an hour ago where I said to investigate the allegations then. If true then punish the team and put Belichick in the stockade, and if not leave them alone. And not with an investigative team that got laughed out of court by a federal judge this time.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:44

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

All we have to go on is the Wells Report that was released. We don't know what it was like before the "tampering" by the NFL and Jeff Pash. We don't know because the NFL refuses to release any of it or the investigative notes. So the Wells Report is decidedly not independent and it doesn't matter if it started out that way or not.

So you're arguing semantics.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:46

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

edit

No big deal, it happens.

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:49

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

You know how in Major League where the owner tries to gently caress the team over by making their existence as miserable as possible because they are loving up her plan to tank the season? Kraft should do that. Like force the visiting teams to fly into Providence on poorly maintained DC-7s.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:53

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

EATIN SHRIMP posted:

I just said that

I know but I enjoy reminding people that Major League exists at every available opportunity. Baseball has Major League. Hockey has Slap Shot. Basketball has Air Bud. What does Football have?

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 20:55

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

axeil posted:

Goodell should apply Belichek logic of focusing way too much on minutiae that doesn't really matter but still violates the spirit of rule enforcement to enforcing the rules against the Pats.

"Tom Brady's pants were a millimeter too high. Two game suspension!"

Perhaps then we can get rid of him in addition to causing Boston to meltdown.

He basically already does this but with socks.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 21:01

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

NC-17 posted:

Replace all air in visiting locker room with inert gas.

Do nothing but have an entire squad of Patriots employees suspiciously mingle around the locker rooms and speak broken English when confronted.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 21:09

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

EATIN SHRIMP posted:

Ha sorry, been taking fire from all sides here for months I'm a little hosed up

What did your parents say when you ordered all those extra sports channel packages on their TV last Saturday?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 21:18

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Madcosby posted:

I think an NFL full fledged espionage division would be awesome. Like you could secretly pay a player to feed you information to your team but then find out three years later he was a double agent. You're allowed to spy and break-in and whatnot but when you get caught in a sting operation (or Mangini'ed, as it's called) you have to forfeit like a million dollars to ISIS

brb selling the TV option rights to TNT.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 21:51

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Ehud posted:

guys every time I bring up any of this stuff to my coworker he just replies with a fallout boy song called "I don't care" lol

I feel like I've asked you this before but what line of work are you in and would it be conceivable for your coworker to end up badly mauled in an industrial 'accident' involving heavy machinery?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 21:59

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Magicpants posted:

What did Odin Lloyd know?

He kept the tapes hidden at the flop house.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2015 04:49

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Will Pete Caroll truther jokes ever get old?

The answer is no.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2015 08:16

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

One of the letters Berman released is in Comic Sans lol

# ¿ Sep 9, 2015 23:30

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

evilweasel posted:

what the gently caress

gotta hand it to him, shimmara was right

Not yet, but soon. :unsmigghh:

Anyway Reiss really needs to leave ESPN. He's getting hosed over there. Zolak said per sources that he's been reprimanded twice in the last some odd weeks for going off script. Whether thats true or not is unknown. What is factually true is that ESPN has covertly edited two of his articles within the past week to either remove something or add something he never said. This was confirmed by Reiss on twitter when someone brought it to his attention.

Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Sep 10, 2015

# ¿ Sep 10, 2015 17:40

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 23:03

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Bro, you could say gravity exists and poo poo would start floating

Thankfully I use my power for good.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2015 17:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Football Funhouse > Winning: The Habits of Highly Effective Coaches, A containment zone