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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:There is a good documentary on Netflix about General Tsos. It was invented in Taiwan by a chef that fled from the Hunan region of China, and the Taiwanese version would more closely resemble traditional Hunan style dishes. Chinese business people in the US then adapted it to western palettes. My understanding of the history of the dish (from Fuschia Dunlop) is that it was a modern Taiwanese dish invented by a Hunanese chef for the express purpose of appealing to palate of visiting western businessmen and dignitaries.
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Dec 20, 2015 01:50
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Holy poo poo 90% of prepared food is an affront to the true traditional recipe, normally we correctly label people who make a big deal about this insufferable snobs. People who want to also want to claim that it's racism on top of that, especially when they're making something that's alien to them, is a level of pretension worthy of exceptional derision. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 01:33
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Kthulhu5000 posted:Yeah, from my experience in university food service, the chefs and cooks know anything they make outside of the typical confines of Western European cuisine is going to be a pale imitation of authentic dishes. It's not maliciousness, it's just a fact of life that kitchen chefs don't get unlimited budgets for labor, ingredients, and facilities, and kitchen staff are usually pressed for time amid all the demands of the food court, student meal plans, and catering events that happen on campus. They take shortcuts, they use the same general ingredients and preparation across multiple dishes, and they prepare food for the palette of the lowest common denominator among the students and faculty. It's more then that, after looking at the original article these kids don't even know their own culinary traditions, it smells of 1st generation immigrants trying to assert a cultural identity they've never actually experienced. Bahn Mi: means literally "wheat bread", it's colloquial usage is more in line with "sandwich" because French colonialism is what introduced bread to the culinary culture of Vietnam. Not only is it not a traditional Vietnamese food, in Vietnam the term refers to literally any sandwich. For an extra dose of irony, the version of bahn mi most of us are familiar with, is only associated with being "the" bahn mi in America, because it's what gained popularity here. General Tsos: Invented in Taiwan, popularized in America, is now sold and marketed in mainland China as "American food" where it has again started to become modified to better appeal to the local (Chinese) palette. The sushi kid is even more of an rear end, he's not even trying complain they got it wrong, he's complaining the quality doesn't meet his standards.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:46
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Ddraig posted:I have seen old veterans, and furthermore there is a vast amount of old veterans who regularly have money raised for them. Massive popularity is in fact strong evidence that a group of people aren't bothered by a thing. This tortured metaphor you've created is just an example of bad logic. This is an exceptionally dumb argument in the context of Japan considering its historic appetite for the consumption and replication of western culture.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:41
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Obdicut posted:Not really, because you asked for a mass media piece. Those don't tend to be good or accurate sources of information. Yes? Absolutely? And it's not racist in either direction. Cultural exchange goes both directions. And yes I thought it went without saying that popularity refers to the majority not to literally every person. I missed the part where you established a small minority gets to declare themselves caretakers of Japanese cultural purity against the wishes of the majority.
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Dec 21, 2015 18:17
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Who What Now posted:While I'm positive you could find a tumblr that claims this, this isn't something that any significant amount of people in the real world have ever said or actually believe. Stop bitching. Pretty sure he's using a snarky metaphor to refer to the oft cited concept that everyone has unavoidable racial bias. Particularly the way some people will hide behind it when pressed to defend having used specific accusations of racism as a pejorative.
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Dec 21, 2015 19:43
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Obdicut posted:Cultural exchange and appropriation are different things. But really, your position is that if a group does Bad Thing, it is okay to do Bad Thing to them? No my position is that it's a stupid loving concept and neither of those actions are bad. Also this is another stupid loving analogy. Polling women in a conservative country does in fact give you an accurate representation of what women in those countries think, which is the analog to what was being asserted. Are you really arguing that racial purity in culture is an objective moral issue that supersedes what the popular will of the actual owners of that culture prefer?
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Dec 21, 2015 21:20
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Wow that's really relevant to the analogy
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Dec 21, 2015 21:57
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archangelwar posted:Not to mention that is possible for a thing to be bad despite the views of a cohort affected by thing thinking otherwise. That and the usage of the language "racial purity" in the post shows an extremely tone deaf strawman. No, not really in this context, that was the point of the post.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:15
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Who What Now posted:Yes? No? Since error of this type is impossible for this type of data? Unless you really want to go with the irrelevantly pedantic "the actual analog is what people told the pollsters  " which okay then but that doesn't change my point?
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Dec 21, 2015 22:26
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Obdicut posted:Yeah, so it doesn't matter if both of them do it or not. That objection was meaningless. It's not meaningless, the mutual nature of the action highlights how stupid this poo poo is. Direct democracy is a pretty good way to decide if something is insulting, unless you think there is a larger objective moral issue at play with letting white people play Japanese characters that transcends what Japanese people think about it? Yes saying only Japanese people should be cast for those movies is a racial purity argument. It's no different then the idiots complaining that stormtroopers can't be black.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:51
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Obdicut posted:How does that logic work to you? Why would people doing mutually bad things to each other just be 'stupid'? Try to actually make a coherent argument, right now your only argument is "This is dumb, I don't like it". Oh no, I'm using that term quite intentionally and I'm not hinting at anything, your screeds about who the true owners of culture are and the need to keep the white man from defiling it are the inverse of 1930's era kkk nonsense. This isn't affirmative action here, the idea that cultures need to be forcibly kept pure is racist drivel regardless of the direction in the power relationship it's going. Also you just used the word authentic to describe cuisine, which is adorable.
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Dec 22, 2015 00:06
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7c Nickel posted:Ok, let's try this. When Native American groups complain about people using their sacred vestments as a fashion statement, are they big privileged babies who don't know about real suffering and should just shut up? Disrespecting and trivializing people's religious beliefs is disrespectful. Trivializing and commercializing cultural icons and concepts that are held solemn is disrespectful. Trying to equate these things to a cafeteria worker over cooking your sushi rice or Hollywood casting a white samurai is also disrespectful to people with legitimate grievances. I don't need this ridiculous framework to reach those conclusions.
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Dec 22, 2015 00:10
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Obdicut posted:
Actually the analogy is a bit rhetorically clumsy but pretty dead on.
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Dec 22, 2015 02:43
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Obdicut posted:Okay. Stabby motions is stupid because it lumps in positive things with negative things. Cultural appropriation only addresses negative things, even if some of those negatives are extremely trivial. Cultural appropriation is not cultural exchange or participation. Except no, that's the entire point, cultural appropriation is attempting to tie a bunch of positive and neutral poo poo to a handful of actually bad things. Like I don't know how I could be more clear, I'm not dismissing bad bahn mi as "trivial" I'm saying it's not problematic at all. The problematic part is some privileged gently caress who complains that the underfunded under trained cafeteria staff tried to be more culturally inclusive in their lovely mass produced food.
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Dec 22, 2015 03:01
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Squalid posted:In the case of the current discussion, you did a poor job of contextualizing your criticism of the film The Sea of Trees. This led to a long and pointless slap-fight about what evidence can be used to gage public opinion in Japan rather than a more meaningful discussion about the marginalization of Asian-Americans, which I think was your actual criticism. Once someone has missed your point it can be hard to get them back on track. I believe the legitimate concerns of minorities are trivialized by attempting to address them via a framework that lumps the native American genocide in with white girls wearing kimonos.
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Dec 22, 2015 03:21
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If you were sincerely interested in participating in conversations about issues like this in good faith you would relinquish your need to feel in command of the conversation. It's not your issue so you don't get to pick the terminology. That's... not actually how conversations work.
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Dec 22, 2015 06:25
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VitalSigns posted:That's exactly what it is; if hanging onto your ideology is more important that finding out the truth, you'll invent reasons to ignore opinions you don't like and cast the other side as hysterical and insane. These were absolutely ridiculous complaints that would have rightly been met with "get hosed" if the students hadn't leveraged the racism element implicit to accusations of cultural appropriation in an environment where schools are terrified of having any sort of racial controversy.
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Dec 26, 2015 18:03
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The Kingfish posted:From an article entitled, "CDS Appropriates Asian Dishes, Students Say" Beaten cause I'm on my phone
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Dec 26, 2015 18:43
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Squalid posted:This food is bad, an utterly ridiculous complaint for any customer to make. Where do they get the nerve? "This American dish that I didn't even taste because it looked nothing like the version they make in China is an affront to my culture" is in fact a ridiculous complaint. Who What Now posted:And it says that where? I kinda thought the quoted response from the cafeteria manger to this exact allegations was kind of a tip off.
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Dec 26, 2015 19:08
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Who What Now posted:The article you didn't link? You mean the original article that is the source of the entire discussion? You need it linked?
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Dec 26, 2015 19:20
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Squalid posted:What are you quoting nobody said that. You could at least use real complaints instead of making up quotes and misattributing them... Are you seriously taking the position that all the students quoted in an article about cultural appropriation were quoted out of context unless they specifically used the words "cultural appropriation" in the single sentence the paper chose to quote?
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Dec 26, 2015 20:28
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Squalid posted:No, I'm saying if you want to criticize someone your argument will be a lot stronger if you use actual quotes people have really said or written instead of inventing exaggerated lines and calling these fictional complaints nobody made ridiculous. Which part was invented or exaggerated? I was paraphrasing, accurately. VitalSigns posted:Haha yeah okay. No civilized white man would ever complain about the quality of his school cafeteria, righto champ. What is this strawman crap?
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Dec 26, 2015 21:36
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I dunno, if a place in Madrid claimed to make Chicago-style pizza, but then the dish was nothing like a Chicago-style pizza, I'd probably complain. And you'd be an rear end too, people like this are flatly embarrassing to be around when living abroad.
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Dec 26, 2015 22:00
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Zanzibar Ham posted:So you buy something and it turns out to not be what you'd expect it would be, but you don't complain? You just accept it silently? People that complain about authenticity of cuisine are pretty much always idiots who don't know what they're talking about. People who complain about authenticity of cuisine based on expectations derived from a completely foreign culture are both ignorant and ethnocentric assholes. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Dec 26, 2015 |
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Dec 26, 2015 22:15
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Zanzibar Ham posted:What do you mean when you say they don't know what they're talking about? That they don't know what the authentic food is actually like, or...? There is no such thing as "authentic" cuisine, the entire concept is farcical. This is not to be confused with saying something is "authentic" in reference to things like ingredients being sourced as indicated (ie authentic Asiago actually being from the alto piano). Edit: has it occurred to you "Chicago style" might mean something different in Spain?
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Dec 26, 2015 22:27
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Stinky_Pete posted:I thought the article said they were passing it off as "authentic" Complaining about the authenticity of General Tso's is exceptionally stupid considering it's a modern dish with no agreed upon origin. In fact the only thing that it's agreed upon about that dish is that it likely invented by a hunanese chef outside of the Hunan province and it's international popularity it's wholly due to the dissemination of the version popular in America. It's kinda like chicken tikka masala and England. On top of that the student's characterization of what "authentic" General Tso's sauce is doesn't even sound like a common variation, nor the common Taiwanese version, It would lead me to suspect it's a mainland Chinese adaptation of the dish. This is like claiming racism because they served you French fries with mayonnaise in Quebec or buffalo wings that are baked instead of fried in the school cafeteria. VitalSigns posted:This is true, but if you use the name of a dish, people are going to expect it to bear a passing familiarity with that dish or they are going to feel misled. If I advertise authentic Italian cuisine, and my tomato sauce is just ketchup poured over noodles, it's not unreasonable to complain. Passing familiarity with which dish? From where? A dish with the same name can be wildly different in one province of China from another. The same dish might have wildly different names in different regions of Europe. Please stop trying to pretend this isn't a completely different context from a quality complaint whenever it's convenient to avoid scrutiny of your statements. Edit: it's also amusing that you choose Italian and tomatoes, a fruit that isn't native to Italy that is falsely associated so heavily with Italian cuisine because of their prevalence in Americanized Italian cuisine. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 00:08
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Oh, I thought that the problem was that the fish was cooked rather than raw. The term sushi refers to how the rice is prepared, there are preparations that include cooked fish, non-fish proteins, and even vegetarian offerings. If the complaint was the cooking of the fish that's even more ridiculous, particularly as that was almost assuredly done for food safety reasons.
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Dec 27, 2015 07:12
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Alright, now that I reread the article I can see where everyone is coming from. The students seem to have both problems with the quality and the authenticity of the food. The tandoori part is hard to take at face value as reported. Tandoori is large hunks of meat cooked on skewers in a tandoor, which is a high temperature terracotta oven. The term tandoori essentially means "cooked in the tandoor", though it's been partially Americanized to refer to grilled meat prepared with the traditional yogurt based marinade. Discovering your tandoori contains beef is like discovering your roast chicken contains poultry. My best guess here is they correctly labelled it as tandoori in the sense it would be analogous to labeling a selection of food as "from the grill", but I feel like there is a nuance to that part of the story that isn't being correctly reported because it doesn't make much sense. I suppose they could have been upset that it wasn't clearly labeled because it could be mistaken for lamb or goat? Someone coming from India might not release that those meats world be extremely uncommon in American cafeteria food and it's the only way I can think of tandoori beef not being clearly beef to the casual observer.
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Dec 27, 2015 09:20
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I don't think it's fair to give the benefit of the doubt to the cafeteria but not to the students. Students at Oberlin are forced to take a meal plan and so are forced to eat the food in the cafeteria. They have every right to complain if they don't feel the food is good for them. But I spent an entire paragraph trying to articulate how the complaints could make sense in context? I mean if students want to bitch about cafeteria food quality more power to them, my complaint is with trying to hijack social justice language in order to give weight to the age old tradition of bitching about the dfac food. I find this extra aggravating when the culture based complaints are just flat wrong.
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Dec 27, 2015 10:43
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