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I am really enjoying going 3 loving floors without getting a single ammo so that I end up on floor 4 using either the starting weapon or the worst gun I own, with 4-5 empty guns left in my inventory. It is so fun in fact that I hope it continues to happen on 1/3 of my runs. I wish I was exaggerating with any of those numbers. This game is weirdly concerned with making sure you don't get to use its enormous list of cool guns. Slow losses due to RNG-based attrition are loving trash.
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Apr 10, 2016 10:00
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 06:14 |
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It's a secret room. The passageway to get to it can be revealed by shooting a wall with a non-starter gun which will make the wall crack, and then you use a blank to actually open it.
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Apr 10, 2016 10:37
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This has got to be one of the most tragically designed games I've played in years. So much work went into the amazing art and the 100+ unique, gimmicky, funny weapons. And then they loving designed the game to not only incentivize you but also often force you to use nothing but the most weak, unfun gun possible for strings of rooms and even entire floors. Meanwhile enemies have enormous amounts of health and you have no choice but to slowly pour entire magazines into every one as you see your impending loss getting closer and closer because you have no way to stop the attrition. The game would be extremely hard most of the time even if every gun had infinite ammo. Why on earth did they think they needed to add RNG-driven resource starvation as some kind of difficulty mechanic? This has got to be one of the most unfitting games possible for that kind of design. I really hope the devs are willing to put some major changes into place, because there is a ridiculous amount of wasted potential here 
Owl Inspector fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 10, 2016 |
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Apr 10, 2016 22:33
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What the hell do you even do against the high priest. I got the bastard for the first time but it took something like 3 full hearts and 4 blanks, which is not really a reliable way to win and running around floor 5 with a single heart and blank didn't last long. I feel like I'm getting hit by things I can't even see over and over in that fight. I'm playing hunter almost every time because she seems like the best way to offset the RNG, although admittedly the dog is incredibly RNG-dependent too, going almost an entire floor without giving a single item and other times giving items in two consecutive rooms. Why couldn't they put invisible timers on this stuff to limit the amount of power the RNG has? If you haven't gotten an ammo box in X rooms, give you ammo in the next one guaranteed. The gameplay is fundamentally really skill-based, so it makes no sense to let how easy (and more importantly tedious) it is be dominated by the RNG.
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Apr 11, 2016 06:31
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Every time it says "generating" I now see "gunerating" I will never be the same
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Apr 11, 2016 08:21
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The soldiers who spawn in almost exactly as fast as you can kill them on treadnaught are a giant loving middle finger that the fight really does not need to have.
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Apr 11, 2016 09:19
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The one time I made it to the forge, it was also pretty much a straight line of enemy rooms. There was a small block of 3 rooms at the start but after that it was just 6-7 rooms in a line with no other ways to go. Not sure how much further it would have gone on after the room where I bit it. Anyone noticed differences in the way each floor's layout tends to be generated? I haven't really noticed one yet but it would be interesting if they are generated in slightly different ways.
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Apr 11, 2016 10:07
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Your reward for not getting hit is that you don't get hit so you do not lose. This is how nuclear throne and other, better designed games work. There is no need to add a completely uncommunicated garbage snowball mechanic on top of that. If I'm worse at the game, I'll need better guns to get by but the game will not give me the ammo I need to use them, so the mechanic artificially makes the game more tedious for new players. If I'm better at the game, it will give me more items that I won't actually need as much. My complaints with the game aren't specifically about the fact that it's difficult but the fact that it's tedious. However this mechanic is loving terrible because it ties the difficulty to the tedium.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:31
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Stanley Pain posted:I sitll don't understand how this game is tedious, or any of the things you said make it tedious. Binding of Issac is like 100x more tedious I did not mean difficult. Game's hard but that's not the problem. The problem is that it features 100+ cool weapons and then incentivizes you to use the most boring one for as long as you can, slowly picking away at health sponges with a slow-firing, inaccurate, low-damage weapon for room after room. Not only does it incentivize you to do this but it often forces you to do this, because you can go for strings of rooms and even entire floors without getting a single ammo. Like I mentioned earlier, 3 of the first 4 times I got to floor 4 resulted in me having no ammo for more than 1 very bad gun. I had good fun slowly pouring magazine after magazine into every single enemy to kill them before getting worn down by attrition. IMO the infinite ammo gun should be a fallback just to make sure you have some way to do damage in case of a freak of randomness or the player somehow missing guaranteed weapons, not something you should to use for entire floors every game. This game features a T-shirt cannon and a beehive as weapons. It's the last kind of game that needed RNG-driven resource starvation as a central feature. It would be very challenging even without any kind of ammo mechanic. I want to feel like "I have all these cool guns and can't wait to shoot these dudes with them," but instead I feel like "I have all these cool guns but I better not use them until absolutely necessary because gently caress if I'm ever getting an ammo refill for them. I must not have too much fun." I think isaac is a garbage game for what it's worth. It doesn't take much to be better than isaac, and gungeon pretty much blows it out of the water in every way. Gungeon has incredible style with the foundation for an equally good game in there, but it has some really tragic problems that get in the way of the game being as fun as it could be.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:31
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This could just be my luck or the fact that I've usually been playing hunter so the dog gets me an occasional key, but I haven't felt like the game is as bad about keys as it is with other resources. They aren't meaningful if they're plentiful enough to open every single lock, but so far I've been able to open a majority of them, which seems alright. However I have to buy almost every key I find in the shop which is not so good. Either way, much like ammo, keys shouldn't be based on either luck or an invisible snowball mechanic.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:40
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I want to pet the dog
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Apr 11, 2016 18:46
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RyokoTK posted:Reading this thread and finding that getting guns and loot is predicated on gitting gud has probably turned me off this game forever. It's like a double edged sword; since I'm bad, I'm going to be stuck with bad guns and no ammo, and by the time I'm good enough to clear the game with that I won't need the good guns and all the ammo I get as a reward. While we're comparing to nuclear throne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJdEqssNZ-U I feel like gungeon's ratio of enemies to enemy health is much too low. Having to pour entire magazines into single enemies is not very fun, where hitting a basic enemy with every single pellet of a shotgun won't kill it (and also makes the spread pointless in the first place). Cleaning through lots of enemies faster that individually pose less threat gives you faster feedback, and makes the differences between weapon types and crowd control matter more. They got a ton of aspects of the "feel" right but this is an exception.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:53
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Stanley Pain posted:God these bosses in this jRPG are so annoying. Fight, Fight, Magic, Fight, Fight, Cure, Magic, Fight, Fight.... You have got to be trying to be missing the point this badly
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Apr 12, 2016 02:03
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Angry Diplomat posted:The knights take like 15 seconds to kill at most, though 15 seconds doesn't sound like a lot on paper, but it's 15 seconds of clicking with the most unfun gun in the game every time one of these enemies appears, and if you use anything else you will wish you had used the slow boring gun instead when you run out of ammo on floor 4 because the game never gave you a single ammo box. It's not just this enemy, it's symptomatic of a larger problem. This is exactly what I and several others have been complaining about for several pages. You are incentivized to do boring things, and it's weirdly jarring because so many features of the game are there to counter tedium. R. Rat prevents you from hoarding things and having to run around to use them at the Optimal Time like you see in isaac, you can teleport everywhere, they just got rid of finding secret walls by shooting the entire surface area of the gungeon with the default gun so you don't feel like you should waste time doing that, etc. Those are good features and keep you from wasting time doing things other than shooting dudes. The devs clearly knew what they wanted to do here, but I think they just cocked up the execution very badly. I hope they are getting feedback like this and listening to it though.
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Apr 12, 2016 02:19
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What's the point of using a shortcut if you start with nothing.
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Apr 12, 2016 10:43
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As in higher drop rate, more chests per floor, or what
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Apr 12, 2016 10:45
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I really wish it moved at a pace at least closer to nuclear throne but I don't think even a mod could fix that. The pace reminds me of isaac, which is not good because isaac is trash. Also, how likely is this game to be moddable? I feel like a lot of my biggest complaints with RNG, snowball mechanics, runs that are dead long before you've actually lost, and so on could be addressed with mods. The pace would still be too low and the game would still be about shooting too few enemies with too much health, but if you could at least do that with interesting guns, it would be much improved.
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Apr 13, 2016 00:27
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IronicDongz posted:God, I'm so glad that this game rewards skill the way that it does. After I spend all of the first 3 floors sans bosses using only my starting pistol as the pilot, and perfect Treadnaut again, and take barely any damage throughout chamber 4(and use my bomb item to save ammo), I still end up in this situation: Wow, looks like the game's too hard for someone over here. Maybe you wouldn't have this problem if you just got good.
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Apr 13, 2016 05:14
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If you were good, you wouldn't need to have fun!
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Apr 13, 2016 05:41
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poemdexter posted:Please shut up about cheating for keys because I play on PS4 and you're all making me cry. poemdexter posted:I have around 20 deaths so far and have killed the past with 3 of the 4 characters. If you play it like a bullet hell game and take your time and dodge correctly and learn patterns, you're fine. I never open chests in first floor because I always try for the secret floor and don't have issues doing no hit runs in bosses and the starter gun is usually good enough for the first two chambers. Sounds like this advice doesn't actually fix the game's problems, who'd have thought
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Apr 13, 2016 15:35
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The shop that can be behind a locked door.
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Apr 13, 2016 17:58
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To be honest the no hit reward on bosses is already a snowball mechanic that only rewards the players who need it less and contributes to the feeling that you should restart a run long before it's actually over (anytime a game's design demoralizes you to the point where you don't think it's worth trying anymore, it has hosed up big time). It's a smaller issue than the other stuff I've been complaining about though.
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Apr 13, 2016 19:07
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JVNO posted:It's ludicrous that a game about a crying baby collecting household objects and weird artifacts has cooler weapons than a game who's obsession with guns rivals Borderlands. I wouldn't say this at all, one reason isaac felt so boring to me is that I never felt like I was using a "weapon," just the slightly stat-modified incredibly boring slow, low-fire rate, low-impact, low-damage shot. Very rarely I'd end up with some item that changed it significantly but it never felt fundamentally different to me. Gungeon has a ton of weapons that feel like very distinct items, the big problem is that it doesn't want you to use them most of the time. You are spot on about the game not playing to its strengths though, and that's why I think so many people are complaining very loudly. The artwork is incredible, the game is dripping with personality, and there's a ton of content already implemented that you want to be good. Everything that the game needs to be fantastic is right there, and it's solely held back by bad design, which is what's so frustrating. It's kind of a tragic game right now, and I'm worried that the Git Gud dumbfucks on their forums are going to make sure it stays that way.
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Apr 14, 2016 07:14
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I liked the hunter for awhile and it is fun when your dog gets you a lot of stuff, but once I started paying attention to it I was not happy when it went for a floor and a half without getting a single item. I'm increasingly feeling like marine is a much better character. To some extent the dog lets you offset the RNG of getting items, but it only does that by adding another layer of RNG on top of that. Game needs more control behind its RNG, you don't just throw a percentage out there and rely on that alone to give the player all of their resources that are necessary to survive (or in this game's case, to keep it from becoming a boring slog). There needs to be guaranteed ways to get things. Almost everything that is "guaranteed" in gungeon (the shop key thing, the number of chests on a floor, etc) is still gated behind resources that are not guaranteed. Then your chance for an item in a room caps out at 80% so you aren't even guaranteed one then. For a counterexample nuclear throne has guaranteed weapon and ammo chests on every level, weapons have ammo in them, your chance for ammo and health from enemies increases if you are low, and there are so many enemies that there's virtually no way not to get enough to use some weapon or other. In 200 hours of nuclear throne and god only knows how many runs, I can think of maybe 4 times where I actually had no ammo left, and in those cases I had plenty of opportunities to switch to more ammo-efficient weapons, so it was my fault to some extent.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:25
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I was fighting treadnaught and an armor randomly appeared in the boss entrance room behind me (I saw it appear out of thin air in there during the fight). Then the rat had stolen it when the fight was over. What
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Apr 14, 2016 22:48
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^^ she was locked up in the hollow for me. Had a few more runs where the game actually gave me enough guns and ammo to use them throughout the whole gungeon, and I finished the bullet and killed hunter's past. It can be really fun when it just lets itself, why doesn't it do this more often
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Apr 15, 2016 00:15
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If I got the oubliette crest to the altar and killed the boss of the abbey, is there any reason to go to those areas anymore? Any unlocks that require going there besides just killing the bosses? That run I got the witch pistol and the hexagun for my first two guns, so it was just chickens for days. Then I flawlessed dragun and killed pilot's past  I'm liking the fact that the past fights aren't incredibly difficult, at least they're no harder than the dragun, of the two I've seen. It would be really disappointing to have to get that far many times just to win once.
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Apr 15, 2016 06:52
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Ok good, flawlessing many of the bosses has gotten me unlocks so I was worried I'd have to beat that awful abbey boss without taking a hit to get something. I think I had one hit left and no blanks. But when I flawlessed dragun it didn't give me anything, so there definitely isn't an unlock tied to all of them. Also as a warning, the drum magazine's description is wrong and doesn't give more magazine size to every gun. My hexagun did not get another shot so it may not work on things with only 1 shot.
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Apr 15, 2016 07:39
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Backtracking is boring and you shouldn't be encouraged to do it. It's one of isaac's hundreds of problems. R. Rat is good, it just ends up exacerbating other flaws the game shouldn't have. Other mechanics encouraging you to backtrack is an unrelated flaw with the game rather than a desire for you to backtrack IMO. Like many of the game's problems I feel like it comes down to bad execution rather than intention.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:57
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Floodkiller posted:The thing is, the game has all these small quirks (scarce ammo, scarce keys, etc.) that a player may feel like they have to optimize to get enough of an edge to actually make progress, in which they are met with a rat laughing in their face. The problem isn't disallowing backtracking, it is designing their other systems in such a way that amplifies the player's gripes when they can't mitigate it through backtracking (and would be better solved by fixing those other systems). This is a really good way of framing the game's biggest problems. And it's why I think a lot of the solutions people throw out to fix the ammo problems are really just bandaids that wouldn't do anything to fix the root of the problem. Making ammo more likely to drop or whatever doesn't do a thing to make it impossible for that screen of like 8 empty guns vs. dragun to happen, and that should not happen without the player just firing all their bullets into a wall or something. The player should not feel encouraged to do boring things in a game whose art and content sell it on variety. There are over 100 guns in the game and you use the most boring one probably 25% of the time or more. If you choose not to, you will often find yourself forced to anyway against enemies with twice as much health, making it even worse. That is garbo design, plain and simple. If that problem went away I think a lot of other ones would be lessened by extension, such as the player wanting to be allowed to backtrack.
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Apr 15, 2016 21:02
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Why on earth do you have to pay H-bux to do the gungame mode. Why do you have to do that. I'm becoming increasingly convinced the devs were terrified of their game becoming too fun and went out of their way to stop that from ever happening. Just what is the purpose of limiting how often players can access a fun alternate mode?
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Apr 16, 2016 02:20
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Is there some reason why my max ammo on all weapons would go down by 10%? I think it happened after getting fat bullets, but that may have just been the first time I noticed it. It even carried over into marine's past.
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Apr 16, 2016 08:29
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I didn't really mind since fat bullets meant that if there was a pit, anywhere in the room, of any size, one shot from the T-shirt cannon would make sure that at least one idiot was going in there.
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Apr 16, 2016 09:03
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Christ the health increase on jammed enemies is just abysmal. Was it not enough to double their damage and increase their speed without loving quadrupling their health? I tried the curse prayer thing you can do at the start after killing the pasts and it turned everything into an even worse slog than usual.
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Apr 16, 2016 10:02
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damnfan posted:What does the star on some guns in the gun menu mean? Those are the 2 guns you will quick switch between.
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Apr 16, 2016 22:04
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Does covering enemies in glitter do anything besides humiliate them?
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Apr 17, 2016 08:06
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Yodzilla posted:Boy is this game kinda bad in co-op. In normal rooms it's mostly manageable but the camera is garbage during boss fights. Sounds like spelunky. Coop is terrible in that game. I can't actually think of a roguelite I've played so far with good coop.
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Apr 18, 2016 00:38
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BJPaskoff posted:91 deaths and I've only gotten to the 5th floor once, gently caress everyone. The tip that completely changed that boss for me is to roll through the 4 lines of shots it puts out on one side when the fire's up. You really can just roll straight through it all, and never have to cross the fire. It's still a pain in the rear end, but it's the difference between losing one heart or four.
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Apr 18, 2016 04:57
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I basically never use a key on wooden chests, and try to always have 1-2 keys before going to the next floor. Shop items get more expensive each floor increase so that means buying them before you go down the elevator. It won't keep the game from loving you over with attrition for no other reason than because it hates fun, but I have had slightly fewer runs like that since I started doing this.
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Apr 19, 2016 03:42
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Actually if money falls into a pit it just appears on top of you. Point 2 definitely needs to happen though.
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Apr 19, 2016 17:13
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