Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

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dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

First win for team NEMELEX! (Fun fact: I've tried to get rid of Nemelex, and failed.)

Necessarily an OpWr. First serious attempt was with Chei, killed by stupidity. Our captain lost a 3-runing Hep OpWr in the Abyss, that hurts. I then gave in and followed Gozag, as it should be. The stars aligned: first shop found on D:5 was jewellery, and the two shops I bought were jewellery, too. Went with UC, trained a bit of Hexes and Fire (only up to Sticky Flame), later killed in Statue Form with ponderous hat. Switched from +6 amulet of reflection (with SH 29) to {Spirit Fragile rElec rPois MP+9}, that was an interesting choice. Thorougly overbribed Zot, and it was good.

PleasingFungus posted:

I get where you guys are coming from [on book amnesia], but I stand by what I said at the time[/url]:

Flavor is nice, uses for duplicate books are nice, but book amnesia wasn't a great way to achieve either.

I invented book amnesia, so I'm completely biased, but I think the flavour is excellent: you're ripping pages out of a book, what's not to like?

Down to one destructional book use (Trog), gotta find me another one.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2016 21:10

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# ¿ May 7, 2024 22:06

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Prism posted:

If a trove asks for an item, say a +3 demon blade, can you give it a randart that is at least a +3 demon blade? (Or an unrand, for that matter, if I wanted to give it Leech.)

Yes. Do it, because not doing troves is lame. Also, the loot might/could/will be poo poo, but you're dying to know, aren't you.

Also: final report for NEMELEX team: eventually creeped to my second win, this time FoCj. This was good, clean fun. Played with the theme, and went Vehumet. Final three gifts were lousy, but who cares? It's all about the earlier, passive powers.I was really worried about the orb run, because how to deal with random, hugging pan lords? Turns out that Force Lance is good enough. Fun: just like with my OpWr win before, I scraped the last (eigth) win.

I'm sad to admit that I had to abolish FeAK. I am just not good enough for this combo: lost a 2-runer and a 1-runer. One of them stumbled upon this gem: the amulet of Pessimism {Spirit rElec rPois} which must be one of the best trinkets a felid can find. (I always have lots of trouble with poison on them.) I used to think little of Felids, but they have really grown on me: that feelings of despair when all ends seem blocked, and you try to sneak a way to open up one more level... awesome! I'd fight any attempt to remove the little buggers. (Now Nemelex, that's a different story... maybe next time.

)

I won't be able to play over the weekend, so the two wins is all I contribute. This mode (only play Nemelex Choice combos) is awesome, I'll keep doing that in future tournaments. Thanks and greetings to the team!

# ¿ Nov 18, 2016 18:01

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Carcer posted:

If that's the only criteria for what gets the axe and what doesn't then its not getting applied consistently. Lots of monsters need to go then, since they're functionally the same. There are some weapons can probably be gotten rid of as well since they're not meaningfully different. Spells too could use some pruning to get rid of those judged "extraneous".

Consistency is hard, but to be fair, lots of monsters got removed, or changed to have something special to them. You're arguing here: you did X, why not Y? The answer is pretty clear, in my opinion: (a) it's only a game, (b) no customer paid, so we can be sloppy (and I knwo that commerical development tends to be as sloppy, but they need a different excuse), and (c) someone stood up and did X.

Regarding rP & food: I've played back when you could swap in an amulet of gourmand and chew through a big pile of chunks. Was it strictly necessary to win the game? No way! Did people do it? Sure thing, me included. Simply because it can be done. Removing this option makes the game *smoother* to play, not less. Poisonous chunks were the little brother of the gourmand problem.

Perhaps food can eventually go at some point. It's not so trivial because food is intertwined thoroughly, and does (way too) many things. In my games, it sometimes has a noticeable effect on my casters.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2016 23:43

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

I think it's pretty normal that players fade out of the game and (sometimes) come back in. That's one of the reasons why there are tournaments! You can peek into a new version for two weeks, and then go on with your life -- if you're hooked, you can also stay a while, of course.

Regarding players who drop the ball: I'll try to regularly (think once a month, this goes until and including the 0.20 tournament) advertise the DCSS 0.19 Player Survey. If you didn't do it yet, and have five minutes, please check it out. (Disclaimer: survey needs a Google account.)

# ¿ Dec 2, 2016 11:41

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Need more invertrebrates. Down with spine dominance and bonism!

# ¿ Dec 2, 2016 15:36

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

LordSloth posted:

What I do feel is I'm hating the inventory limit. I just want four more slots, is a 28 letter alphabet too much to ask the devs for? Somehow my packrat conflicts are worse than ever, despite the seeming removal of items.

If you get standard English to adopt four more letters, then *of course* Crawl inventories would grow by those four letters. I'll point that in an alternative history where German was the dominating language, you'd enjoy 30 item inventories, thanks to ��. Bitte sehr, gern geschehen!

# ¿ Dec 7, 2016 13:26

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Floodkiller posted:

Can we adopt kanji instead, then?

E: 紫の = potion of mutation

Jokes aside, if you want my real opinion as a designer: I think that tight inventories are good because they potentially force decisions. I realise that, in Crawl, the lack of a tight clock means that storing stuff on the floor largely circumvents the inventory cap. (Two notes: 1. Not fully, as everyone notes in portal vaults or the Abyss. 2. Check Brogue for a game with a smaller inventory and a tight enough clock to make it work -- the decisions are agonising and meaningful.)

If I had my say, I'd solve this conundrum not in the lazy way (increase inventory) because while that does solve the interface problem, it does away with the choices. Instead, I'd make items on the ground disappear after a while. I've never formally proposed this (and, like any bigger change, this would necessitate a whole bunch of follow-up tweaks), but I'm convinced Crawl would become a better (=more meaningful decisions, that's my metric) game for it.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2016 15:36

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Gozag is my brainchild, and so maybe I should chime in. PleasingFungus is right (of course!).

When I came up with Gozzy, I had two motivations: one was to provide a subgame (=god) where gold is actually meaningful. For most Crawl games, it isn't. By the way, Zin's tithe and the mercenary card were previous attempts to do so. The other motivation came from flavour: money is such a dominating motivation in real life, that it should be possible to do mimic that in the game. I'm not sure, but I hope an observant player will notice: gold distraction, the potion petition (mechanically the weakest element, it's supposed to show "gold can buy anything, anytime), shops (with enough gold, you can shape the economy) and bribe (you always aim to bribe as high as possible, which is exactly what happens in Crawl) are real life imitations.

I also like the fact that a Gozag follower can litter some spot with shops, showing off material wealth.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2016 19:37

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

jerkstoresup posted:

If you remove gozag shops, this wouldn't be possible anymore.

You can do swastikas with potions or by digging. What does this have to do with Gozag?

# ¿ Dec 8, 2016 19:51

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Johnny Joestar posted:

also it's hosed up that gozag doesn't let you 'corrupt' levels like lucy but does it by turning things to gold and summoning paid security

No idea why it's "hosed up", but perhaps this bit will help you: the way Gozag bribe works is taken straight from real life. If you pay enough money, people will look away when you murder their neighbours. If you pay some more, they will even taken part. Maybe not all of them, but enough. And the people at the top tend to be more susceptible for this...

I intentionally made Gozag as a parable for how money can ruin human society. You may not like that, or how I go at it, but it's a lot of corruption in my mind.

And yes, gently caress nazis.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2016 22:08

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

I'm torn whether the reactions to HE removal are more far out here over the tavern. I guess here it's more ... awful

The future of DCSS: all the cool guys dead, only rubbish left to roam the dungeons! Let's see how long the Deep Elf kicks around.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2016 13:48

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

PleasingFungus posted:

gammafunk, the dev responsible for the removal, has played over two thousand high elf games. he's literally spent over one thousand hours of his life just playing high elves. i'm somewhat terrified, but i'm also reasonably confident that he knows his elves.

Solid reasoning, but my very first wins were HD and GE... which happened to be the first two species to leave the game. You can never trust these devs!

Edit: also someone should say that "gently caress Tolkien" is not a design goal or anything (it's a lofty aspiration, no question about that). Flavour is a really minor thing in Crawl, and I'd sum up the current stance like this: If there's a choice between equally good options, take the non-Tolkien one. That's not at all the same as actively trying to remove Tolkienesque content, that'd be a major undertaking.

dpeg fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Dec 14, 2016

# ¿ Dec 14, 2016 22:10

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Nobody can stem the tide, so let's face it: HO, Mf, DE, Ko, Ha, Tr, Hu and also Og (single mention in Hobbit!) are all Tolkien-tainted. These will be purged, we expect complete delivery by 0.27.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2016 15:08

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Zore posted:

Ko aren't anywhere in LotR or the Hobbit.

True! Kobolds are a D&Dism, right? That makes them just as eligible for removal, though.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2016 18:23

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

I know that, I am a German. But I don't think these are what the RPG kobolds are and, in fact, I once looked into a D&D Monster Manual and their kobolds are nothing like the Deutschkobold.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2016 19:28

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

cheetah7071 posted:

I'm pretty sure there are no crabfolk in either Tolkien or D&D, by the way. Just sayin'

Among hordes of madmen, you sound more sane than ever.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2016 22:54

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

E Equals MC Hammer posted:

Found a potion of bene mutation and it gave me genetic stability. However the exits keep eluding me. I really should have gone for that ashe altar when it came by.

If you play a recent Crawl, then killing monsters in the Abyss will open up an exit. Personally, I think that's the cheesy way, but now there are three ways to get out: (1) randomly run into exit, (2) Lugonu, (3) fight.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2016 14:15

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Floodkiller posted:

This was a really good change in my opinion, because if you are buff enough to fight until an exit (or downstairs) appear, the Abyss isn't a threat to you outside of the statistical oddity and should absolutely be sped up instead of wasting your time.

I largely agree, although I do think you get the portal out a bit too quickly right now. But that's mere tweaking of numbers, no big deal.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2016 17:38

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Fitzy Fitz posted:

I wonder if there's any reason haste wasn't just changed to haste other.

I don't think Haste Other would be a good spell: it'd improve the power of your crew considerably. At the expense of coming relatively late, I guess? I could see the effect on a wand, but not on a spell. Thinking about ally buffs is interesting, but I find it hard to come up with ideas that don't fall flat outright. The reason for this, of course, is that spells demand much higher standards than consumables or god powers.

Regular Brogue advertisement: that game has a staff (Brogue's spell equivalent) of haste other.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2016 05:02

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Speleothing posted:

In my opinion, you could drop it to level 5 and it would be fairly easy to cast in heavier armors, and there are a lot of gods that provide ally summons (also Hep buddies wouldn't need to have haste-self as a spell). It would also serve a beckoning-like function in getting chaff to stand between you and something really dangerous while you high-tailed it to the stairs.

And wands of Haste can already be targeted, unless you're proposing one with a lot more charges to spend on your allies..

I think there's a misunderstanding here: I don't talk about Haste Other being "good to use for players"; that's probably the case. I am talking about Haste Other being "good design", and I claim it's not because it would be a meta-effect buffing summon power by 150% or so. This has already been one of the problems for the old Haste spell. For summons, you additionally have the issue that with the the player hanging back, there'd be ample time to buff strong summons one by one.

Re: wands of haste: There's been discussion about removing all of /haste, /heal wounds, /teleportation, and one can hope this will happen before 0.20.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2016 23:29

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Hey, the hyperbole about a hypothetic removal is already ramping up to tavern levels! I hope you guys realise that rhetoric comments a la "best Crawl = empty Crawl" really only serve to make me go back to c-r-d and IRC.

I can definitely spell out why, in my opinion, these three wands are not good (again, designed; obviously they are very strong): all of them replicate consumables (scroll of teleportation, potion of haste/heal wounds). Removing the wands may be compensated by increasing the generation rates of those items somewhat. Yes, the wands can also be targeted at monsters/allies, but that means a slightly more annoying interface (one more prompt) and is almost never used anyway. In short, these wands are very power-gamey: they add extra power to (usually already strong by then) characters. For example, look at acquirement flowcharts.
Another indication is that these wands don't take Evocations skill into account. Yes, that could be changed, too, but that's just another crutch: Haste/healing/getting away are very strong, emergency level, buffs. It's okay that they exist, but using them should come with decisions. The potions are rare enough to provide those decisions: if you have two potions of speed and three potions of Heal Wounds, then you may contemplate about whether to blow them on a D:9 encounter. By contrast, the wands provide so many charges that you can use them almost nilly-willy. (The scroll of recharging adds to the problem.) Powers that strong should not be spells and, I claim, not on wands either.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2016 00:36

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

silentsnack posted:

I wouldn't be surprised if crawldevs have some secret bingo game for all the dramatic overreactions any given change produces

We do, and it's painful to admit that gammafunk's scratching on my throne of Mountain Dwarf skulls.

quote:

...but maybe if you wanted meaningful/productive discussion you could try explaining your reasoning first instead of just dropping an inflammatory "we're gonna do X" like a novice troll and then coming back to defend your assertion after people get agitated. One would think you'd have figured this out how this repeated conversation works by now, unless it makes you feel better to confirm how easily riled nerds are when you talk about messing with what they do for fun.

To be fair, I made a passing comment in a discussion about something else (Haste Other as a spell for summoners, and then the wand got brought up). Sure, I could've explained right there, but where does it end?

re: Flavour: everyone's entitled to flavour fury, and I'm still bitter about removing book amnesia (obviously, because it was my idea and I just love book destruction in any form). PleasingFungus, we'll settle this in the afterlife! That said, I don't see much flavour in the wands -- that's just standard powergame fare, and people are afraid that more of their characters may die. Ogres and Elves are fair game, just release your anger.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2016 01:12

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

"Malmutate crime"

It's futile to try and divide devs: the stuff that actually gets carried out has been agreed upon (at least for testing... things do get reverted sometimes). Nothing has happened to malmutate, so don't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure that rMut won't ever come back. Personally, I am all for meaningful decisions, and sources of rMut *remove* choices, despite appearances to the contrary. The mutation system is far from perfect, but a tool that just disables it is a bad approach.

Stuff that does not seem move forward, such as food or extended, *is* being discussed. It's just harder to reach concensus or simply develop decent concepts. For both of these, progress is being made, if slow. It's actually good for something if you complain repeatedly about this, like orcs use to do, because that drives the point home: thinking about Hell/Pan etc. is relevant to some players.

re: Ogres: I have some investment in the species: when we discussed the Ogre Mage removal, I suggested to try out the particular aptitude niche of high Spellcasting and really bad other magic skills. That probably wasn't my worst idea, but perhaps Crawl is not the ideal game for this. Anyway, since the Og change, their focus is a bit different. Here, loudly complaining about "they ruined GSC ogres, stupid devs" will achieve absolutely nothing (except brownie points for the dev in charge, counted and celebrated at our HQ). Instead, if you do play new ogre and talk about it, now that could be interesting.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2016 04:35

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

I assume that those of you interested in these questions are familiar with the 0.20 development plan. No guarantees that all/any of this will actually happen, but these are the current ideas. More obsure is the c-r-d mailing list. I won't have time to discuss all of this in detail, but I thought some of you might want to know what's going on.

dpeg fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Dec 19, 2016

# ¿ Dec 19, 2016 13:52

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Ugly John posted:

Suggesting that someone read/join the c.r.d mailing list seems like a form of cruel and unusual punishment that ought to be unconstitutional. Then again, maybe you enjoy occasional bouts of "what can I cut/take away to feel again?", interspersed between random technical quesions/fixes.

What do I care about your freaking constition? Make a Con saving throw!

This game is developed by us and for us. The idea is that making the game good for us does make it good enough for many other people (certainly not everyone, but that's a hopeless proposition anyway). I provided these two links because some people here seem interested in where the decisions come from. None of this is hidden, feel free to read and discuss. (By the way, for everyday development, the IRC channel is most relevant.) If you happen to be too cool/young/arrogant for a mailing list: your loss!

# ¿ Dec 19, 2016 16:39

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Heithinn Grasida posted:

Most of the changes on the .20 list look good! I'd just like to indicate my opinion that if the game becomes shorter, which is good, experience really needs to become more plentiful.

Here you mean "less plentiful"? If I recall correctly, you coined the characterisation of Crawl as a "minimalist game with maximalist tendencies". Is that true?

quote:

However, a reduction in the amount of experience available in the game would decrease the number of possible skill combinations that could win. That number has already decreased, though not to a very meaningful degree. Further reductions in the amount of experience available would surely lead to a much more restrictive class and skill system, which would seriously damage one of the most interesting strategic aspects of DCSS' play style.

Sure, xp reduction makes the game harder. That is the point. However, the powerhouse combinations (Mi/Tr melee, DE casters, Spriggans) would still work. We have been cutting levels since 0.4, and we intend to keep doing so, at the same slow pace (a few levels per release) for the time being. By the way, there's a fork, Hellcrawl (by hellmonk) which cuts much more aggressively. This may be interesting, to see how far the envelope can be pushed.

quote:

To use dpeg's principle which, to be honest, I feel is overly reductive and slightly deceptive, a further reduction in the amount of experience available in a game would reduce choices available to the player, rather than increase them.

Not to get lost in semantics, but we're using "choice" in different ways. For me, a choice is a gameplay decision, such as: which god to take, which spell to forget, what to identify, which branch end to tackle first, Slime or Abyss or Vaults for third rune, use teleport or blink in this situation. As I understand you, your meaning of "choice" is about the variety of (reasonably winnable) combinations. Xp reduction highlights the first type of choices, and reduces the latter.

quote:

I'd also like to suggest that as the game becomes more and more streamlined, it starts to lose its identity. I agree with the removal of the haste spell and I agree with the removal of the haste wand. But, I worry that an overly rigorous focus on "meaningful choices" based on random, emergent factors will move the game significantly away from an "rpg", which is the kind of game I like to play, to some kind of weird, abstracted single player chess match that will have overall far less broad appeal. Such design principles, for example, are one reason I don't like Sil in spite of many reasons to adore it, and are a reason I have no interest in Brogue.

I am replying mostly for this point, because I think it's understandable, but misguided. Yes, Crawl is losing flavour left and right: species/backgrounds removed, simplified mechanics (let me mention book amnesia one more time, but one could even consider victory dancing or item destruction as providing flavour).
However, this past-focused approach misses that new flavour is injected into the game, all the time. This is probably much harder to see than the losses. I'll give some examples: some of the more recent god additions ooze flavour (Ru, Hepliaqklana, Uskayaw), and even current Trog is way more flavourful than old Trog, same for Okawaru and Vehumet. The current set of uniques is much more interesting, and fun to talk about, than the old crew (which were a bunch of humans with names), think of Dowan & Duvessa, Grinder, Crazy Yiuf, to mention just some earlyish ones. Even monsters have been changed to be more flavourful, rather than just walking bags of slightly different numbers.
The Abyss and the Slime Pits are much more interesting places than they were when we got them. Another source of flavour are the portal vaults: ziggurats, troves, wizlabs, but also the early ones, can really help turning a single game into something more story-like. (Which to me is partially what flavour is about.)
So whenever you think about how Crawl has a dessicated corpse of a roguelike, I encourage you think whether there's something new that tickles your fancy.

This is off-topic, but I've got to say it: I fully concur with what you say about Sil: in principle, it should be a game I love; it has all the right design prinicples, and executes them perfectly. I just cannot play the game (I've tried). On the other hand, once I got over its (overly flashy, in my opinion) visuals, I could fully dive into Brogue -- and I think that games has plenty of flavour to offer. But hey, it's awesome that the roguelike genre is rich enough to provide such a wide range of games.

Mr. Prokosch posted:

Is the "passive buff status vetoed" thing a reference to the idea that buffs can take a chunk of mp depending on spellpower and occasionally auto-check for spell failure? I think that's a solid solution to charms being tedious that preserves the same balance we have now.

Yes. Buff spells have been discussed and tinkered with for so long. It's really not clear how to proceed, but I think there's concensus that permanent effects a bad for spells. (At least, I'm hoping it's concensus by now.) Buff spells can work, but they should be tied to combat. Passively increasing numbers (such as AC, EV etc.) is probably not going to work on a spell. These effects are fine on consumables or god powers.

dpeg fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 19, 2016

# ¿ Dec 19, 2016 20:55

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Heithinn Grasida posted:

[...]it's responding to something that was not my original point. In the first place, I think, or at least I hope, when people complain about flavor, they are primarily complaining about the loss of flavor for flavor's sake, not the loss of flavor in an absolute sense.

I think this happens quite rarely. Of course, the reason is that you and me will probably disagree what "for flavor's sake" means. For example, removing a species is often lamented, and complained about like this: "There was no cost attached to keeping this species, by removing it you only remove fun." This is not quite true: there is a maintenance cost to everything. The code portion of that cost, for a typical species (like High Elf say -- only aptitude, no gimmicks) is very low. But there is more: every species adds to the cognitive load (you may laugh about it, but one of us put roguelike-newbies in front of a screen and let them play Crawl unaided, and the learning curve is really steep, with the species/background selection screens already being massive question marks). Then there is also a sort of "total design cost": we cannot simply add species, there should be some limit. Experience has shown that players can mentially distinguish two dozen of a kind, so that looks like a natural cap. For deities, I think I've achieved a hard cap of 27 with the initials rule. So someone has to make space when species like Octopodes, Formicids and Vine Stalkers are added. (And I'll admit these are wacky, but they do provide their own kind of flavour.)

Let's look at another example of flavour loss that has drawn quite some complaints: racial armour/weapons. Now I could ask what's the use of special armour for a single (dwarven/elfish/orcish) species

But cynical jokes aside, these were removed because they looked cool but added little gameplay value, and therefore actually led people to make wrong decisions. Like picking a orcish +1 sword over a bland +2 one. Does this fit better into the category of losses you talk about? For that, I have to say that while racial egos are gone, a bunch of new armour egos have been added. I claim there is no loss at all, just a shift. (Remember that each release adds *more* than gets cut.) Now you can say that the removed stuff was full of flavour whereas the new stuff is bland. I have no reply to that, I can only say that to a new player it would not feel like this. Perhaps something becomes "flavourful" if you've seen it for long enough? (Question not sarcastic.)

quote:

Crawl may have very good flavor itself, but people still are right to complain about the removal of things hammers and sheep. They made the game more fun to play even if they weren't strictly good design.

I think the sheep flavour was about sticky flame and the Xom vault? If I understand correctly, both of these have been preserved! The hammers, I can relate -- the maximum hammer version of Crazy Yiuf's was me. So, I did feel a sting when I read the commit line "removed hammers". But after a moment of reflection I realised that for a new player, maximum club Yiuf is just as wacky as the old one. Okay, maybe a tiny bit less wacky. I guess, it boils down to the question: is it okay to keep an item just for a single joke? (Anyone recall when we had ankus?)

quote:

But other sacrifices have been made on the altar of good design that were more harmful. An example I've brought up repeatedly is the dragon's call / dragon form synergy that existed for a few versions. It was obscure and almost useless to the vast majority of players, but it made for something flavorful and fun that you could try for if you knew about, and if you didn't know, it really didn't hurt you at all. There was no practical reason to remove it except for an aesthetic compulsion on the part of the developers and the game is poorer for its loss.

Well, the comparison to dwarven armour stands. In my opinion, if you're *really* serious about this (or something like this), then the best/only way forward is to think about a mechanic that is both flavourful and mechanically relevant. This can be hard, and perhaps there is no cool solution. But I would think that there are manifold possibilities to improve Draconians' Dracon Call experience. Invent some, bring them up and argue for them. We will listen!

Altogether, if you phrase the accusation specifically enough, I cannot have a decent reply to: "you kill flavour for no reason, hence the game may become better, but it's less fun". I can tell you that I (and I am not alone in this) think about flavour. It's true that flavour *alone* is not (anymore?) the reason to add something, but it is always taken into account. I suggest to have a relaxed glimpse at the whole changelog (from DCSS 0.1 to trunk), and try to see how things have been lost, sometimes reinvented, and added.

quote:

Flavor is not the only psychological (which I mean as opposed to strictly intellectual in a challenge, or puzzle sense) factor in making a game fun. Though it might seem "low brow", most people who play RPGs want to be awesome and to do awesome things. Although in the specific case of haste, I think the intellectual aspect of more interesting design outweighs the psychological aspect of reward, casting haste was awesome. Finding a haste wand is awesome. If you cannot do those things, you cannot be quite as awesome as you could before.

Whatever you think of the Haste removals, we took a long time. The Haste spell has been nerfed and tinkered with since ever, and was only removed recently. We felt that the top-tier wands are ill-designed for a long while, but only now may get around removing them. (This is a reply to "current design pushes game away from fantasy to bookkeeping".)

Let's try and find things that have been added to make your Crawl experience cooler, and your character more badass: new high level spells, such as Tornado, Glaciate, Dragon Call, Orb of Destruction! I came up with Ziggurats specifically and solely so that players can feel like they own the dungeon! The earlier portal vaults provide flavour, power and hopefully some excitement. (Some people correctly say that they're dubious because they make strong characters stronger.) Hell and Pan have been touched: layouts, sentinels, population. You may not be able to haste yourself anymore (apart from potions), but there are a bunch of evocable items that just shred at high Evo skill.

quote:

My personal sentiment is that the current design trend is pushing the game somewhat away from a fantastic and varied experience where you see bizarre things and do awesome poo poo to some kind of chess puzzle in the newspaper. You might feel satisfied and stimulated, but you don't feel awesome in the video game sense when you figure out that black's path to checkmate in four moves is rook to queen four.

It sounds a bit like you grew out of Crawl

There's nothing wrong with that, we're not developing an eternal game such as Go.
Regarding bizzare things. I am certain that Crawl has more of that than ever: Malign Gateway, wizlabs, fixed artefacts, Apocalypse/Grand Finale/etc.

Why did I write this wall of text: if you state that, say, DCSS 0.16 was best Crawl for you, then no problems. It is clear that Crawl has gone a long way, and why should any particular player feel compelled to walk all along? (I know a number of players who did, and that in itself is amazing and heart-warming.) However, I rarely see the sentiments phrased as clearly as you did and, like I tried to indicate, I think they're understandable, but misguided. Flavour has moved, and badassness has moved, but we try to preserve these -- we play this game too, after all!

dpeg fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Dec 20, 2016

# ¿ Dec 20, 2016 17:54

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Of course, a non-relevant monster can be removed. However, I think it's more interesting to move it to a higher (more shallow) depth first. This is what happened to some uniques. Where could Reapers be interesting enemies? (I agree they're chaff when they come up -- I cannot recall a memorable fight against one.)

# ¿ Dec 21, 2016 04:16

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Speleothing posted:

I like how removing the good wands, a very major change, wasn't mentioned or alluded to in the Dev Wiki's 0.20 planning page. Nor was there any discussion on the Tavern. Just dpeg coming to SA to troll us for a week before committing it.

I was about to say that SA coped with the removal way better than the tavern: the first posting about it linked the commits (something which tavern didn't manage until now), and comments have been sane. But thankfully Spidiothing comes to the rescue!

dpeg fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Dec 21, 2016

# ¿ Dec 21, 2016 16:59

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Ugly John posted:

Have you thought about maybe drinking a cure mut to get rid of your abnormally thin skin?

I'll have a bottle of German beer and keep thinking you're all overprivileged American teenagers with bad spelling and fat bellies!

Happy now?

# ¿ Dec 21, 2016 17:03

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Floodkiller: There is the idea of Hell/Pan roulette, which would (a) cut extended half in size, and (b) hopefully come with a population review because the idea is to make both halves roughly comparable in threat and loot. Might be a good idea to have a look at mutators then.
As always, it'd also help to calmly explain what goes/went wrong in your full rune runs (regarding mutations).

Everyone else: I am sitting here, opening one bottle for every trigger. Unfortunately I ran out of beer and now have to take schnaps instead. Cheers!

dpeg fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Dec 21, 2016

# ¿ Dec 21, 2016 17:39

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

German Joey posted:

dpeg man, I'd be surprised if anybody who still plays this game is younger than 30.

Well, that's what we're running these polls for. And turns out that new players grow like mushrooms after rain. So many of them

With the current heyday of roguelites (FTL, Spelunky, Curious Expedition, Don't Starve and so on) and successful roguelikes (Cogmind, DoomRL turned Jupiter Hell), a number of players will arrive to see what the big ones are/were about.

quote:

Serious question for you though, which I hope you'll answer seriously, if you still remember me: When do you stop changing crawl? When will you release the "final version" and call it done?

I am sure there will be no "final version". If people stop playing the game, then probably developers lose motivation to work on it? It is conceivable that in ten years a different branch than DCSS is Crawl.

Meanwhile, we're doing what we can to keep this old, almost fossilised dinosaur of a roguelike alive. This includes the removals and nerfs, and I mean this absolutely seriously, no beer, and tongue out of cheek.

Myself, I cannot quit with Crawl for various reasons: one of them is that Lugonites still cannot desecreate altars, which they absolutely should be able to. And then there's randgods. The latter pretty much makes sure I just can't stop, period. For 0.20 I really should get my gear together and slap some more content onto Oubliettes... I've got all the mechanics to work, only maps and monsters required.

# ¿ Dec 21, 2016 19:16

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Floodkiller posted:

Once you enter Extended, it becomes ridiculously common to the point of needing a plan to deal with it and recover from it. [...] This leaves me frustrated that an entire mechanic is relegated to an abstracted strategic rot system depending on how long you want to play the game, and needs to be decided on character start to avoid doing things that will hinder your abilities thousands of turns later.

Excellent, many thanks for the time writing this up. I am absolutely not an extended game player (but I also had nothing to do with rMut removal, and it was, and is, clear to me that rMut removal is the correct choice for 3-rune games). You are correct that another parameter to tweak is mutations themselves, in addition to mutators. (Like I said, I am sure that rMut will not come back: its existence is like saying "folks, here's a cool/devious mechanic", followed by "and here a trinket to disable it".)

Brannock is working on Hell/Pan for 0.20, and I will bring your point up in the discussions! Saved your words in my Crawl folder, doesn't happen very often

# ¿ Dec 21, 2016 19:25

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

German Joey posted:

But, a lot of the other [not Haste] removals seem more like what one might call "streamlining," done more for a reason in and of itself than having anything to do with the balance of the game. But to what end?

There is no particular goal. In fact, the calls in here for "longterm vision" will go unheard, there isn't much of that. I've linked all there is: the dev-wiki planning pages, the c-r-d mailing list. Actual discussion takes place on ##crawl-dev; if someone feels bored enough to read the logs, I can link them, too.

For each removal, we genuinely believe it improves the game. All of them are discussed, often at length, and they aren't done on a whim, forum rhetorics nonewithstanding. Then, what are the reasons for removals:

removing a false choice [1], e.g. racial items, Moutain Dwarf vs Hill Dwarf.
removing a dominating choice (no-brainer), e.g. top-tier wands (dominating when it comes to acquirement/recharging and options in Oh poo poo moments).
improving interface and avoiding tedium (e.g. Sandblast nerf, poisonous/rotting chunks) -- these two often go together.
increasing variety (yes!)

Balance is not very often a factor, because the first idea to achieve better balance is by nerf. You can see this very well with the Haste spell which got nerfed so often, and for so long, until it finally bit the dust in 0.19. Spells where nobody had a good idea how to nerf them into something sensible are Tomb of Dorokhloe (inherited from DC 4.0) and Singularity (introduced in 0.16 and removed in 0.17).

[1] Who gets to decide whether something is a false or a proper choice? That's us. If it was everyone, the game would explode, and there'd be no Crawl whatsoever very quickly.

quote:

The reason I asked about a "final version" is that Crawl today is so different, in its philosophy, content, playstyle, and metagame, that it is barely recognizable compared to the crawl I first started playing and fell in love with 10 years ago. Comparing DCSS 0.1.5 to DCSS 0.20 is more like comparing Civilzation 1 to Civilization 5, despite the version numbering implying that the two games are under the same major version - as if DCSS 0.1.5 was like Civ5 at release, and DCSS 0.20 was like Civ5 "Complete" edition. Why have you never wanted to at least push out a version "1.0" before making more drastic changes to the gameplay?

No, I especially disagree with the Civilisation comparison: Crawl is, despite the many changes, much more coherent than the Civ series. I think this is precisely because the philosophy is unchanged. I'd bet some money that someone who played Linley's Crawl but never DCSS would recognise trunk as "Crawl". This is a dungeon crawler, with a focus on monsters and character development. It has expanded on branches, gods etc. but which of these changes have been drastic rather than gradual.

To properly answer this question, I just had a long look at changelog.txt and the following is a selection of the output from "grep -i 'remove' changelog.txt':

code:

MECHANICS:
item weights and burden, anti-training for elemental schools,
wall-clinging, drowning, prayer, corpse/item sacrifice, 
stat death, mechanical traps and disarming, item destruction, 
racial equipment, secret doors, victory dancing, glamour, 

SPECIES: HE, SE, MD, Gn, GE, OM, HD, El
High Elf, Sludge Elf, Mountain Dwarf, Gnome, Grey Elf, Ogre-Mage, Hill Dwarf, Elf

BACKGROUNDS: DK, He, Pr, St, Pa, Re, Th
Death Knight, Healer, Priest, Stalker, Paladins, Reavers, Thief

GOD: Pakellas

ITEMS:
Artefacts: Hat of the High Council, Sword of the Doom Knight, Amulet of Cekugob, "Brilliance", Cloak of Flash, Spear of the Botono, Blowgun of the Assassin, Boots of the Spider,
Rings: sustain abilities, invisibility, teleport control, hunger, sustenance
Amulets: dismissal, resist mutation, stasis, warding, corrosion, conservation, controlled flight, resist slowing, 
Wands: teleportation, healing, hasting, cold, fire, frost, magic darts, invisibility, draining, fireball
Rods: destruction, swarm, striking, smiting, discovery, 
Potions: (strong) poison, decay, restore abilities, confusion, porridge, coagulated blood, paralysis, slowing, gain Str/Dex/Int, water, 
Weapons: hammers, darts, ankuses, knives 
Other: randomly generated decks of cards, almost all chunk types,
Miscellaneous: stones of tremors, lanterns of shadows, tomes of destruction, crystal ball of seeing/fixation

UNIQUES: Norris, Maud, Wiglaf, Lamia, Jozef

MONSTERS:
anubis guards, boulder beetles, chaos champions, griffons, various draconians, various demonspawn, salamander stormcallers, sheep, wasps;
octopode crushers, plain/trapdoor spiders, salamander firebrands, blue devils, brain worms, various deep elves fire drakes;
unborn, ravens, giant mites, baby alligators, boring/goliath beetles;
moths of suppression, rock worms, lava fish, lemures, jellyfish, grey rats, spiny worms, giant amoebae, deep dwarf berserkers, agate snails, giant centipedes, rotting devils, clay/stone golems; 
vapours, thorn lotuses, giant goldfish, silver stars, flaming corpses, grizzly bears, spriggan enchanters, phoenixes, shedu, plague shamblers, giant/elephant slugs, giant fireflies, brown oozes, pulsating lumps, big fish, sharks, lava worms;
war dogs, deep dwarf scions/necromancers/artificers, deep elf soldiers;
ant larvae, bumblebees, blessed toes, rock trolls, wood golems;
bog mummy, midge, pit fiend, hairy devil;
giant toads, vipers, blue deaths;
bears;

SPELLS: 
Cure Poison, Haste, Warp Weapon; 
Stoneskin, Condensation Shield, Mass Confusion, Phase Shift; 
Abjuration, Control Teleport, Enslavement, Flight, Sure Blade, Singularity;
Twisted Resurrection, Forceful Dismissal;
Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, Lethal Infusion, Poison Weapon, Summon Elemental;
Dig, Summon Scorpions, Song of Shielding, Polymorph, Ice Storm, Demonic Horde, Summon Ugly Thing, Summon Dragon, Mass Abjuration;
Fulsome Distillation, Evaporate, Cigutovi's Degeneration, See Invisible, Insulation;
Projected Noise;
Maxwell's Silver Hammer, Levitate;
Teleport Self, Berserker Rage, Resist Poison;
Bone Shards, Tame Beasts, Portal, Alter Self, Extension, Selective Amnesia;
Divinations spell school (0.6)

This list is definitely incomplete. I can recall the Tomb of Dorokhloe spell and some more uniques called Joseph/Josef (?).

Some observations: early on, a lot got added and almost nothing was removed, Crawl was in free growth mode. Later on, more things get removed, but still more are added.
Occasionally, there's a sudden burst of new features (like the Forest monsters, or whole sets of new spells), and afterwards these get whittled down. I think this is normal -- think of it as a ludological equivalent of the Cambrian explosion.
Most of the removals can clearly be traced back to the few principles I listed above: no-brainers, anti-tedium/interface, variety.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 01:06

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

LogicNinja posted:

I don't think it's really that hard to understand why players for whom this game is Hard Enough Already might object to removing the three best wands, or why not being able to heal in lichform (or as a mummy), teleport out of Silence, etc might not go over well. So why get so lovely with people who are posting about it?

Too hard to understand for me! But seriously, I didn't think that trolling only goes one way. You ask me a question, I answer. You troll me, I troll you. What's really hard to understand for me is why people get so worked up about a game. I guess I should be glad about the emotional attachment?

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 02:04

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Internet Kraken posted:

Wands of teleportation could be used while silenced. Silence is a rare threat but it can be very, very deadly for certain characters to get caught in it.

Wands of heal wounds were the only way for mummies to heal so now they suck even more.

But I do think they make some specific combos harder and I really dislike changes that do that. Gives me less of a reason to want to do anything other than my standard statue form stomp through extended.

I agree with the stuff I snipped, but I think the stuff I pasted is backwards. First off: yes, these removals are nerfs and some character will die from lack of a wand of healing.

However, silence is a monster effect intended to disable spells and scrolls. Why should there exist some tool that allows you to reproduce scroll effects under this special, dedicated threat? (Historically, the wands are much older than silence.) If we think that Silence is crippling now [1], then we should address that directly, not hand out tools that make everyone who has it stronger, regardless of Silence.

Your argument about specific combos basically shuts out any nerf. If you're interested in edgy species-background combinations, say, then any random player nerf or monster buff can hit hard. Should this be the yardstick for balance?
To the contrary, if statue form dominates the game, then *that* should be nerfed, to open up variety for other builds. Or, the other way around, some cool but underpowered spell/weapon/whatever buffed.

[1] And *if* Silence is that crippling, what about those poor characters who got silenced in 0.19 without access to a wand?

I am absolutely confident that the wand change will have no visible effect on winrates: it does not affect the early game at all, and the midgame too seldom to matter. For the endgame, we had similarly or more drastic changes, and it does not affect rates. (Think of -cTele, orbrun, monsters change all the time.) Someone mentioned (Brannock?) the theory that the change might actually *improve* winrates, because the +10% !HW,!speed,?teleportation matter much more early than the absence of the wands later on. Who knows?!

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 02:59

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

This discussion might have run its course... just two little bits:

Internet Kraken posted:

I'm gonna be real annoyed though if Hell decides to spawn multiple hellions and a fiend near me while some rear end in a top hat silent spectre is hiding behind a wall.

Aren't situations like this --procedurally generated high threat situations-- exactly what we're playing roguelikes for?

Like I said, some poor chap will die to this, and faultlessly so. Most characters will find a way however, and it'll be cooler than "hey, I've got a source of teleport you cannot silence".

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 03:22

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

silentsnack posted:

Do you somehow not realize that you're not particularly good at trolling? Or that trolling and effective communication don't mix?

I'm working on my trolling skills, there's a handbook right on my table. DO you have a fat belly?

quote:

I'll skip the wall of text and go straight to the tldr: maybe you should consider learning a social skill or just let someone else do the talking.

Since it's okay for you to assume I have no social skills, do I get away with assuming you have no mathematical skills? I'm the loony, you're the dumbass! Or is it the other way around? I'm the sperg, you're the retard?

quote:

Specifically regarding player reactions, ~~even~~ especially when all you hear is salty whitenoise, that is still feedback and it tells you something as long as you have the ability to understand what it means. In a lot of cases the message is: the current state of discourse between crawl's community (such that it is) and the developers is... not exactly ideal.

There are people I hear very well, and the game gets better for it. Apart from that: what *is* discourse between community and developers? No such thing!

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 03:37

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

There's not so many people I take seriously on the internet, but, lo and behold, The Sloth is one of them. "When in doubt, do it like sloths do" is one of the more proverbial proverbs.

The order was to bitch about overnerfing the ogre: I actually cannot comment too much on that, because I learned about it from the commit messages. I assume that my fellow developers discussed this at length, and if poked or pressed, I could dig up the ##crawl-dev logs to show it. I fully trust the commit message: this change was made to *increase* choices, by making the dominating Ogre weapon choice less attractive and thus opening other builds. Whether the change achieves that, or even overdid it, remains to be seen.
In any case, it was my idea (of several years ago, when Og and OM were folded into single Og) to have good Spellcasting and bad other magical skills. This got lost with the recent change, and while I'm partial to my own ideas like everyone else, this change came out well-motivated enough. (Unlike, to give a random example, arbitrarily removing amnesia by ripping pages from books! [1]) It turned out that Marvin actually liked that aptitude niche, and this seems to have led to the corresponding Mummy change. I cannot say whether this was intended as a compensation for the wand removals -- I wouldn't think so.

From my personal point of view: I had nothing to do with Mu/Og changes, and I'll be happy to see how they play out. They're fine by me either way. I encouraged and rooted for the wand removals (there's a c-r-d mail about it, and also further stuff about moving rods to non-rods), and I am very happy these are in. It was about time.

What now? I am absolutely sure that the yellow wands will not come back. I can imagine that there'll be discussion about generation rates for the consumables. All the hullabaloo about gimped endgame and whatnot will be entirely ignored. Ogre aptitudes will be revisited if and when feedback rolls in. The aptitude changes have been significant, and it's completely counterproductive to revert for nothing. The changes arrived in very early 0.20 trunk -- the best moment to test stuff like this, and see what happens. Exactly the same goes for Dwarves and their new innate healing, as well as for Mummies.

Regarding future development, much more interesting (as in: open, large, discussion-worthy and reliant on feedback) changes hopefully materialise later: the Hell-Pan stuff, and if we get lucky, whatever Lasty can pull off (this includes the ranged reform). These are on the 0.20 planning page.

I hope the royal sloth is happy!

[1] This is a joke. I have nothing to argue for book amnesia apart from flavour. And the desire to make book duplicates good for *something*. The interface for book amnesia was admittedly lousy, and there have been conflicting trends about goldifying strategical items -- book amnesia probably just got the short straw there.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 05:24

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# ¿ May 7, 2024 22:06

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

LordSloth posted:

any ideas if there are any planned changes related to the the whole wand changes other than consumable spawn rate and changes to those who can't quaff potions? I.E. Any new wands (or rebalancing the power of remaining ones) or gadgets incoming to fill the void? Or are they just getting pulled and balanced around the removal?

At your service: https://sourceforge.net/p/crawl-ref/mailman/message/35534171/
This is a digest of several hours of ##crawl-dev discussion. As you can see, some of the items have been addressed. I think the rods->wands change has a good chance to make it, too.

edit: I never use the web interface for c-r-d because I get and save the emails. The whole thing looks very 90s, no question about it. Thank god it's the last bit connecting us to SauceForge.

dpeg fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Dec 22, 2016

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 13:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

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