Saga of Tanya the Evil - DEUS VULT! - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Saga of Tanya the Evil - DEUS VULT!

«‹›2 »

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Where's the Nazi wizards irl

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 23:06

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 04:59

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

I hope the guy who pushed him into the train got what he deserved

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 13:52

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

I'm actually liking that Tanyas actions are leading to everyone around her praising God.

Being X wants her to believe, but he's also using her to spread faith.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2017 03:21

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Being x wants people to believe, is pissed off with modern trends towards atheism, and has turned an unbeliever into an instrument to spread faith in another universe. That's all we know

# ¿ Jan 23, 2017 02:09

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

More being x facts: the show makes reference to several religions. No character actually identifies a specific religion, although there is the most reference to Christianity.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2017 09:19

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

The book has a lot of detail about Tanyas beliefs which I'm going to quote later because we've already seen the salesman scene now.

Also being x is an "old man commonly seen in generic novels" in the book, indicating closer ties to abrahamatic religion than the show.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2017 16:34

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

It'll be tomorrow now because I spent my evening destroying a sofa

# ¿ Jan 23, 2017 23:15

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

So let's talk about Unnamed Salaryman in the first book. To do this I'll be using book quotes liberally. First up, a few disclaimers:

1.) Although I'll be posting things from the book that have already happened by this point in the show, I can't guarantee that some themes won't arise/be introduced later on. I also can't guarantee that they won't do an episode on Unnamed Salaryman's childhood. Assume that this post, and similar posts may potentially include minor spoilers.
2.) As with a lot of novel > anim adaptions, some things may change. I know for a fact that the vision of Being X was changed, and that the conversation was truncated. That won't come up in this post, however be aware that some things may not be true for anime-salaryman. So what's the point in using the books? It gives us an idea of authorial intent as to the salaryman's character and motivations. As ever the author's intent isn't the be all and end all, but it's a start in terms of analysis of the work.
3.) This post is going to be long. This is an amateur translation of a Japanese book, and therefore the prose is likely to be awkward. I've done you the favour of turning things into proper lines and paragraphs.

Understood? OK!

So to proceed in order, I'll quickly summarise the very first section. Tanya is born, and the salaryman's consciousness is essentially subdued, unable to cope with the complete alien sensation of being a literal baby. At roughly age 3 the salaryman's mind begins to properly assert itself until finally it has control over Tanya.

The story then goes into a slight explanation of the Stanford Prison Experiment. The conclusion drawn is:

quote:

The surprising thing was that, this phenomenon had nothing to do with a person�s reason, conscience, or personality; but was rather brought forth by the persona of the
role which was being acted out. In other words, these two experiments clearly showed that humans will obey their environment, going so far as to willingly ignore their own reasoning and conscience. To say it in a more extreme manner, it is that anyone is capable of being a prisoner guard in Auschwitz.

Thus, speaking from a logical point of view, humans would always be affected by their environment, causing them to behave far from that of their own original nature.

After having learned of such matters regarding what kind of creatures mankind truly were during my time in university, the first thing which I felt wasn't discomfort but rather it was more of a natural acceptance as if I had expected it to be like that.

. To slightly paraphrase, the conclusion the salaryman accepts is that people act in accordance with their roles, and will exercise as much power over others as they feel they have.

quote:

During elementary school, I guess everyone was taught that all humans are equal under the state�s compulsory education. We learned that all humans are equal and irreplaceable. However judging from this, we could also easily find out that some situations were unequal. Why is the student sitting in front taller than me? Why are some of the students in the class good at dodgeball, while others are not? Why can�t the student in my neighbouring seat solve such a simple question? Why can�t the student seated behind me stay quiet and listen to the teacher?

However, elementary students are placed in a "Be a Good Child" environment. Even if everyone is different, there is still the need to say that everyone is an important existence. The fear is that if they do not follow this rule, they would be labelled as "Bad Children". So "Good Children" work hard to not become "Bad Children". Then when preparing for middle school exams, "Good Children" start to despise "Bad Children" in their hearts, avoiding interaction with them. Successfully getting into a good middle school, followed by a
entering a high school with a high university enrolment rate, lastly into a well known university, they strive for perfection under these rules and conditions while going down the shortest path to success.

To continue acting as "Good Children" in this environment, it is required to keep on fulfilling other people�s requests and not betray any expectations. Constantly reading reference books and textbooks every day, then comparing their results with other students, feeling as if they have been placed in the middle of some sort of examination warfare, these students treat those who play games every day as losers. In this environment, where results are everything, they naturally look down on those students with poor academic results. On the opposite side, the poor students do not believe that they themselves are smart. After all, what little pride they had were already crushed by the aforementioned group of geniuses long ago.

It goes on like this for a couple more paragraphs, but the point is clear. First of all, a vague ridiculing of the belief that all people are equal when there are also differences that set people apart. The salaryman's view on school is one wherein students compete to be considered to be "good children" through obtaining good exam results. Studying hard, avoiding those more into games than studying. Constantly competing with the other students to get good results, while remaining aware that some students are just naturally more inclined towards effective study and retention than others.

quote:

Placed in this world where they struggle to safely breakthrough this exam warfare, after getting into the so called famous university, the game rules change. Willingly or not, most people among the group will realize that the world will start to judge you by "What you have done" instead of "Excellent results". Facing this changed rule, only those who are able adapt well in this new environment are able to handle it.

On one side obeying, abusing the loophole and ridicule the rules, while on the other side being bounded by the rules.

In the end what they learnt was that rules were an irreplaceable presence for the optimization of the system. Unbound freedom is just pure destruction; rules that have no freedom is just a pure tyranny.

Therefore, although he hated being restricted, at the same time he was worried about having unrestricted freedom. He was unable to understand what are the people who were late for class [were] thinking, unable to understand what kind of values do the people who got drunk lying beside the road had, unable to understand the brain of the PE department people who kept advocating about spirit.

Relatively, he was overjoyed for being able to give a reasonable explanation by pinpointing the relationship between rules and freedom at the Chicago school meet up. As long as one obeys the rules, you will be able to continue on the right track. All the while acting like a diligent student but actually hiding the fact of being an otaku. In his opinion, this is what it means to be free of the restriction of rules.

So next up he went to university, where things became less about excellent results and more about "what you have done" (a combination of experience and effective results?). He also learns to follow the rules whilst also trying to use them to his advantage. To be able to present a public face that is what people expect whilst also having hobbies that most around him would not respect (i.e. finding the loophole). Worth questioning is the revelation in this block that the salaryman is an "otaku". Was he one of the good children, avoiding his former friends who would rather mess about than study? Or was he one of the avoided bad children?

quote:

Friends who had pleasant interactions with him, other than his high school friends, are those people he met in university who had the same interests. Building relationships and ability with others, at the same time wasting some of their free time before going out to society. Of course there was also the need to invest diligently in honing your skills, study vigorously till you reached an adequate standard of language and etiquette. After that along with the signalling theory, he will soon become a well praised excellent
student.

Just that the demand for these kinds of people, surprisingly isn�t for their ability, but more emphasis on what was on their resume. I guess for those who got excellent results for entrance exam, graduated from a famous school, plus were familiar with the interviewer, they were the best candidates available for the recruiter. Based on this reason, the unemployment tide for university graduates also couldn�t really be counted as an obstacle. After all the starting point is different. If you want to go according to the facts, it's a handicap race. Visiting the seniors in the company before going for an interview is a must. And not just that, you will still need to invite the HR recruiter for a drink and have a chat.
Don�t even mention the senior from high school, or the senior during university who are now in charge of hiring people. They would just straight away give him advice "That company�s HR department just happens to be looking for this kind of talent, it would be best to use this during the interview". With this kind of opportunity, even if you were only at an average standard, there would be no trouble finding job. As long as one was not picky about jobs, you would be able to get a decent salary.

The salaryman fostered an effective network of contacts and worked on being outwardly acceptable to others in order to compensate (potentially) for a weaker resume than the "geniuses". He cared less about which job he got than he did with ensuring he got one with a decent salary.

quote:

Becoming a cogwheel of society, submissively executing orders and just ensuring that its own part of job is completed. Then unknowingly, the referring of oneself from �boku� have turned into �watashi�.

Work ethics? Personal style? Creativity? As long as there was a proper salary for that amount of workload, a useful member of society will never question about the job content. And for the companies, they will pay the best talents that could do their assigned task to a satisfactory degree. Following and obeying the business theory without a single doubt, putting profit as priority. Getting used to this corporate lackey lifestyle, actually isn�t that difficult. Heartless? Cyborg? Cold blooded? Inhuman? You will only be worried about these things at the start. It is hard to understand such pathetic yelling, and I felt afraid of people who are in this crazy state, on the verge of using violence. But I got used to it, just like
when I was schooling.

Humans are adaptable living beings. The so called environment adapting, is to act out the roles that were given to you, if you are a guard do your guard role well, and if you are a prisoner, do the prisoner role well. He was just like that, switching between the world of work and interest, living a peaceful life. Of course, work was
conducted in the most efficient way possible, so as to prevent his own precious free time being wasted. Thus he obeyed all sorts of business requests, trying his best to avoid failure in his job. Because of this, he caught up to both his parent�s salary after thirty years old, and was well on his way to become a successful person.

After that, due to his commitment to business and his loyalty to his superior, he was promoted smoothly in the HR department and lastly gifted with the position of section chief as his touchstone.

Upon becoming employed he proceeds to continue focusing on presentation and virtue signalling. He completes his role competently, although he works completely to rule, never seeking to excel but merely to complete tasks as specified, as efficiently as possible. His job is within HR and he completes his role coldly, ignoring insults from those he has to deal with. He continues to juggle his outward face with his private interests, and rises swiftly up the corporate ladder as a result of adhering to expectations and rules.

Thoughts: He's excessively rules orientated and focused on the idea of "roles". He believes that the path to the most comfortable life for him is to just do as expected while appearing competent and willing to do more (see the scene where Tanya is carefully trying to make it sound like she wants to be assigned to the front lines while being aware that her superiors want her at the rear). Tasks are completed efficiently, but without regards towards anything but achieving the desired outcome (possibly the motivation behind the scene where Tanya uses excessive force to discipline a soldier, she may have felt that generating a high level of fear was the quickest way to achieve the outcome, regardless of the effects it may have on the soldier). This may also go some way towards explaining the pillbox scene, although I suspect that's also partially do do with what happens next...

A rough summary of Tanya's outlook on life could well be "Be the guard, not the prisoner"

# ¿ Jan 25, 2017 19:58

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

What I'm slightly interested in is the world's history. We know that its Earth because of the geography and the fact that there's a book on Hannibals battle at Cannes. We know that magic is done through technology (the man-made gems). We also know that its 1921 and world war 1 hasn't happened yet.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2017 20:32

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

I can give you a little bit on current history based on the book. Youve got the main super state "the federation" in the middle surrounded by a load of smaller states, in particular france. The federation and the surrounding states disagree on borders, with the federation using military superiority to claim a border several miles larger than the surrounding nations think it is.

Prior to Tanya joining the military there were a few minor border skirmishes but nothing serious, the kind of things that the nation's don't acknowledge on an official level. Once Tanya joins these skirmishes and aggressions start increasing. It is implied that the outside nations are acting irrationally (basically that being x is specifically twisting the situation to cause conditions for war).

The battle where Tanya gets "injured" is chronologically the start of the war as similar situations occur across the whole of the border and war is declared between the federation and its neighbours.

As of episode 4 it's still very much a borders thing that hasn't really affected much in any nation. This is what Tanya has changed. Not only has she screwed herself over as an individual, she has defined the concept of a world war and suggested that the federation gets properly aggressive in pursuing it.

In trying to impress her boss, she has triggered the events that will change the war.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2017 02:49

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Well I say it hasn't affected much. The federation is on ration cards as they play border defence on all fronts but everyone still has a decent looking quality of life.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2017 02:51

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Eej posted:

I don't know how much of it is the original author's POV and how much of it is Tanya's character (although at some point she did make mention to the Chicago school so I wonder...) but the idea that people are rational actors is a fairly modern one and she keeps trying to apply cold hard corporate logic leading to unexpected factors plus the "irrationality" of the people in this period throwing her plans off course. If it really is supposed to be Being X influencing other nations to become more belligerent it's not really a necessary plot point for the writer to include because nations even nowadays do not act completely "rationally" as uh, highlighted by very recent events.

It's a big weakness of modern fiction writing about the past where for some reason the writer always assumes that people in power are rational actors exploiting this and that to achieve their goals when for the vast majority of human history no, leaders really did believe that God wanted them to go and kill millions of unbelievers and that they weren't just coldly manipulating religion to their ends and so forth.

That's an interesting point, and I should mention that its me jumping to the conclusion mostly because this setting has been specifically manufactured to make Tanya fight in a war.

I should post the next block of text tomorrow, the one wherein the salesman dies

# ¿ Jan 29, 2017 03:37

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Thinking that Tanya is a sociopath is probably closest to the truth without being the truth.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2017 22:50

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

The salaryman had friends and interests outside of work. I'd say that Tanya is probably interested in her and has some low level of attachment, but they definitely aren't friends at this stage.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2017 23:14

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

I already posted it. Basically he's a closet otaku who made friends with similar interests as him. He was a big believer in separating his work life and free time, choosing to complete jobs efficiently and to the letter of what was requested (without thought for creativity or emotions) in order to maximise free time. That's probably the reason for the extreme punishment in the officer training camp, she had a disobedient subordinate and punished him in the most efficient way the rules allowed for.

The book mentions in the scene where he meets X that he has a lawyer friend he plays fps games with.

# ¿ Jan 30, 2017 00:38

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

hoobajoo posted:

The first episode was a pretty bold choice; if you watch the second episode it works great as a package, but just the first episode gives you none of Tanya's inner life, which is to me what makes the show stand out. I can totally imagine someone watching just the first episode, not getting what the fuss is about, and missing out.

This is a problem Japanese doesn't have, but I don't know whether Tanya should be referred to as 'he' or 'she'. I can kinda see the argument from both sides.

I don't think that's a problem worth focusing on, but I'd say to see what self identifying pronoun Tanya uses

# ¿ Jan 30, 2017 19:32

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

I'm double ore

# ¿ Jan 30, 2017 23:31

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

What the heck!

# ¿ Jan 31, 2017 00:51

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Fun things about languages aside, I don't want to talk about Tanya gender identityw

# ¿ Jan 31, 2017 18:38

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

jon joe posted:

Would you say Tanya is more of a Hitler or a Goebbels?

Congrats on finding a worse topic than her gender identity

# ¿ Jan 31, 2017 23:57

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

It's definitely weird that they don't have any idea of air warfare seeing as we saw that planes exist. The only thing I can think of is that nobody ever thought to strap guns to them.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 18:24

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

At present the most firepower we've seen from the average mage is that of a normal artillery shell. Maybe planes are better for more destructive roles

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 22:14

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Cao Ni Ma posted:

Probably not a warcrime yet based on the timeline

Geneva convention at this point prohibited ill treatment of the dead but says nothing about boobytraps yes I looked that up

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 22:24

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Accept my apology for my lack of recent book posting with this quote about Tanyas gender

quote:

Fortunately, our side started counter electronic warfare measures and communications returned to normal. But look, they came as expected. My instinct for detecting trouble is a hundred percent accurate. Is the intuition of a woman so accurate? Outward appearance aside, I have no plans of being a woman. What is this annoying feeling?

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 18:51

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Going back to last Fridays episode, there is something very fundamental that we overlooked in our discussion of Tanya's actions.

Up until this point the empire's war has been a defensive war where they have been defending their borders.

Tanya's actions were not just defending the border, she has actively crossed the border and taken aggressive action in an enemy nation.

Tanya has escalated the war.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 18:37

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

hoobajoo posted:

Hasn't the Empire been taking land from the Republic, though? Even if you are fighting a defensive war, I think it's normal to attack the enemy nation. Russia invaded Germany in WWII, and that wasn't seen as aggression because Germany hadn't surrendered.

At present all they're doing is repelling invaders because they have superior numbers and good quality troops. Their traditional military strategem is to keep doing this, at present very few higher ups want an offensive war.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 19:37

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Raenir Salazar posted:

The higher ups may not want a world war per se if pressed and described in those terms; but they almost certainly balk at the idea of appearing weak or giving up initiative; Otto Von Bismark they do not appear to have at the helm but an officer corps and General Staff with all the same weaknesses and blindspots as their real life historical counterparts; basically a bunch of nerds who value winning in a short sighted sense and ignore the larger geopolitical picture.

I think the Imperial Japanese Army and the way they crossed into Manchuria may be relevant here.

It's an early plot point in the book that at the moment most of the generals want to pursue a flexible defence, with only the military advisor to the emperor wanting something more aggressive. That's why tanyas discussion with that one important guy is significant because she's telling him that the empire would be better off expanding. This has not really been covered in the anime.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 21:09

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Oh yeah I never mentioned but Tanya has a ton of uppers on hand.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2017 00:43

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Raenir Salazar posted:

They also have magic. "Courage/Bravery" is a fairly basic D&D spell to put into potion form.

That's not how her magic works. She has pills. Lots of pills

# ¿ Feb 28, 2017 09:31

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Poil posted:

Not that I condone killing civilians in any way,

im glad that you clarified your opinions re: civilian killing

Namtab fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Mar 5, 2017

# ¿ Mar 5, 2017 20:09

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Poil posted:

I'm bad at communicating so it was just to make sure there wouldn't be any misunderstandings.

It's ok, but I'm going to say that further discussion of Tanya the evil's actions don't require a disclaimer to say that you don't approve of the epic war crimes.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2017 09:47

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

ViggyNash posted:

I think for Tanya, at the end of the day, duty is the most important thing. Not morals, not preference, duty. And she's so obsessed with it that she can fully shut down any emotions she has about her orders. She does make a point to note that this isn't something she cares to do and acknowledges its moral implications (see office scene), but in the end performs her duty with gusto.

Like someone said earlier, if it's an order that improves her reputation, she relishes it. But an order like this that sells her nickname thoroughly she performs mechanically and coldly.

It's not even duty. It's just blankly fulfilling her role to the stated specifications in the most "efficient" manner possible.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2017 19:29

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Jackard posted:

Salaryman was living for his hobbies, but Tanya doesn't seem to have any

Coffee

# ¿ Mar 6, 2017 20:46

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

darkgray posted:

Music video for the full OP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VRyiaszGtA

Good song, lovely music vid

# ¿ Mar 9, 2017 00:55

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Raenir Salazar posted:

I wanted to originally make a parody chart of Reagan's tax breaks chart / Laffer Curve but make it imply that you got more moe the more money you threw at anime; but I couldn't find one I could easily edit, so I went and found an Uncanny valley chart instead figuring I could put something humorous in the "Uncanny valley" pit, missed that there were two lines and couldn't figure out what the two lines should represent and so I just did whatever.

But tbf your reaction I think is funnier than the chart so probably worth it.

K-on is a lot more Moe than your chart shows

# ¿ Mar 18, 2017 10:27

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

I'm glad Tanya is properly evil as of episode 8

# ¿ Mar 26, 2017 13:26

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Raenir Salazar posted:

What would the Soviets ride.

Your mum

# ¿ Mar 29, 2017 00:20

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Please support the official release

# ¿ Apr 1, 2017 11:23

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

wheelgun wielder posted:

The eventual shiny metal/plastic disc release will be purchased, I assure you.

Please also support the official stream

# ¿ Apr 1, 2017 20:30

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 04:59

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

it's me

# ¿ Apr 7, 2017 21:42

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Saga of Tanya the Evil - DEUS VULT!

«‹›2 »