UKMT February 2017 - Welcome to Tiny Train World

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT February 2017 - Welcome to Tiny Train World

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

Again the problem is that they are, objectively, correct. The people who are wrong are UKIP. They (or at least the people with some degree of smarts like Farage) presumably know this and are just chancers who saw an opening, but most people believe factually incorrect things like "we pay more to foreign development than we do to pensioners" or "a third of the country is migrants". They're looking at things the tories have done, or the neoliberal expansion of the power of big business, and, falsely, attributing it to immigration. Someone at some point needs to say they're wrong. Where does that happen?

Hasn't happened in the last fifteen years, including under Corbyn. Maybe the next party leader will give it a shot with their 70 MPs.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 01:02

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 19:21

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

What's your solution? Seriously, come at me here. We lose if we say racism isn't part of the solution, okay, cool. What's the fix? Show me the game plan.

No I'm saying the solution is not racism at all it's creating a counternarrative about investment. You cannot say that racism is part of the solution when post-1997, immigration rose massively, and important people in the party say that's OK. It doesn't chime. See racist mugs versus racist mug votes.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 01:08

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

Then I'm not following you, because if the bad thing is that Corbyn said immigration is sustainable, surely the good thing is to suggest, as the racist right do, that immigration is actually a drain on society (through at best economic means, and at worst tainting cultural purity)?

what the gently caress are you talking about lol

What I'm saying is that you cannot possibly argue for anti-immigrant measures when the leader of the party says it's fine. The loving dissonance is gigantic.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 01:14

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

It sounded like you're suggesting it's labour's failing (towards UKIP) to have their leader saying "Immigration's sustainable". Is that not the case?

Labour's failing is saying and doing 2 different things and losing votes both ways.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 01:25

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

JFairfax posted:

Pissflaps, in Middlesbrough:

40,477 Votes to leave
21,181 Votes to remain
19,296 Leave Majority

Tell me, how does labour appeal to voters in Middlesbrough by being pro-remain?

http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/update/2016-06-24/eu-referendum-middlesbrough-votes-to-leave-the-eu/

How does it appeal to voters in Middlesborough when it is pro brexit but its leaders are pro immigration, which is apparently 85% or so of the reason people voted to Leave?

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 01:42

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

JFairfax posted:

to be fair to the guy it's handling an unprecedented situation, and there is really no clearly ideal solution for labour.

he believes in democracy and after parliament supported calling the referendum he's supporting the result of that.

If he believed in democracy he would go. The country at large is tired of him. His opposition to the EU is not rooted in democracy, it is rooted in him not liking the EU.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 01:51

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

JFairfax posted:

he's won two leadership elections in the last two years.

The membership voted to Remain. If he was just interested in their opinions he would be the head of a party that opposed Brexit.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 01:55

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

JFairfax posted:

he did head a party that opposed Brexit, unfortunately remain lost the referendum.

Only one in six people think he should be PM. Does that not signal he should go, if he believes in democracy?

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 01:58

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

JFairfax posted:

opinion polls ain't elections you loving weapon

ah ok

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 02:01

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

We hit the usual "Who else?" problem, though. Corbyn's proving kind of shite at handling this, but the neoliberal horse has long since bolted and that's the only thing the PLP seem prepared to offer.

Who the gently caress cares so long as it isn't Corbyn, Abbott, Watson, or McDonnell.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 02:07

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

Any of the neoliberals will continue the growth of inequality and weakening of the social safety net, and will refuse to stand for any important principle if it might piss off the mythical center?

The furthest right of even the parliamentary Labour party is about on par with the left of the Tories, and there is a lot of it to the left of that. If you are seriously trying to equivocate fuckin Angela Eagle with John Redwood you are a thick oval office and part of the reason the party is dying, alongside your pissant "uhh bluh bluhh the left can't form and distribute narratives as proven by corbyn not being able to" attitude.

e: McDonnell is a loving joker to answer your question. Little red book at the budget, very droll. Good one. That's a vote winner.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 02:20

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

I spent like two pages trying to get someone to admit there was a need for the left to make an immigration counternarrative, given you unhelpfully suggested that suggesting a counternarrative was only a way to lose votes without qualifying "if you say that while also hollering for controls on immigration". Whatever you've come up with off that you've misread badly.

What the gently caress are you on about.

A counternarrative is not a way to lose votes. At no point did I suggest that. I said the current and indeed long term former strategy of a half arsed joining in with the "yeah gently caress em" attitude while immigration actually soars was never going to work.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 02:36

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

JFairfax posted:

immigration has not soared.

Yes it actually has, unless you think the stats in the Brexit White Paper are entirely a fabrication.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is true.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 02:46

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

It's late so I'm just going to suggest reading stuff in the thread? It seems like we basically agree that the only way to actually stamp out racist-right sentiment is a counternarrative about immigration, and we also agree Corbyn's loving up the job at present. I mean, scroll up a bit for why I think this is a problem for the argument of "anyone but corbyn".

EDIT: In 1926, Mussolini was the subject of a failed assassination attempt, which would've saved the allies a lot of trouble a few years later.

Literally anyone but Corbyn is going to have to put forth their own ideas to brush off the Corbyn Cobwebs of fusty ineffectual rhetoric. I think that probably includes committing to spending and house building in a big way, recognising that most builders are working class tories but not having such horrible vanity that you would refuse to build houses because it might help the tories out at some future point in time.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 02:48

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

spectralent posted:

Yeah, but, again, who are these people? Because all previous experiences of Labour have shown that the way they think you have a proper discourse about immigration is to villify migrants. Tony Blair did this, which is how we started fetishising the Australian System, and the pitch in 2015 included the racist mug. Among the many popular criticisms of Corbyn that've leaked to the media, that he "doesn't get the working class" because he doesn't sufficiently villify migrants is among them. Who is there who's going to say "Actually migrants aren't stealing your jobs, the employment market just sucks and we're going to fix it", or "they're not taking the council houses/NHS beds, we just have nowhere near enough of them"? The trend of Labour does not appear to suggest this is a move that most of the PLP is willing to make.

Who's going to not try something different other than like Watson and maybe John Mann?

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 02:57

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

I think it's important that the party's MPs and its leader can get along, so I don't see why the PLP nomination should be ditched.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 13:14

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

namesake posted:

As with Trump, putting a leader at the top trying to do things that the rest of the organisational structure is unprepared (if not actually unwilling) to do is extremely difficult.

The problem with Corbyn isn't that he's effective.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 13:25

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Guavanaut posted:

The Tories should have a leadership election more like Labour.

They actually did just have a very Labour style leadership election, which is why Gove and BoJo aren't PM.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 13:45

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Cerv posted:

This post couldn't be more inaccurate

Explain to me how two people who probably both had a decent shot at power completely loving themselves up wasn't the most student politicsy bollocks ever.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 13:57

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Cerv posted:

The Conservative contest was nothing like the Labour contest (either of them).

In spirit, it was.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 14:38

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Verizian posted:

Liberalism was a compromise to make sure the nazis remained dead and buried. It never worked and instead gave excessive power to middle management types with fragile egos.

As you can tell by all those nazis we had.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2017 22:43

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

HJB posted:

Am I going mad or was Labour's previous share still bigger than UKIP's?

yeah what the hell lol

# ¿ Feb 5, 2017 19:19

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

feedmegin posted:

This sort of thing is why we need mods, just sayin'.

We need to end the tyranny of weak owns now!

# ¿ Feb 5, 2017 20:25

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Cool. Good cool posts.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2017 20:35

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38872899 how about that no amendments policy eh boys

# ¿ Feb 5, 2017 20:54

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Skinty McEdger posted:

The Guardian was floating a story about Abbots spokesperson repeatedly dodging the question of whether she'll follow the whip.

Did they have to take a tactical chunder during the interview?

# ¿ Feb 5, 2017 21:01

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Guavanaut posted:

Hardline Protestants love their crocodile metaphors.

Yeah, because a crocodile in the OT is itself only used in relation to the Egyptians/Babylonians who would destroy Israel!

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 19:46

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

For two weeks.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 20:35

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

You too could make Dame Polly of Toynbee's cuppas for a week unpaid while nobody thinks too hard about slavery.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 20:36

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Tesseraction posted:

You crying about it won't either.

Has throwing away Labour's leverage and handing the country on a plate to spivs made Hungary less fascist yet

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 22:37

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Seeing as a ton of people are not happy with how it's panning out already, even before any kind of concerted attempt by any important political party-slash-movement to rally opinion against it, you'd think there might actually have been.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 23:09

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

"I'd rate the EU as seven... seven and a half... no seven... out of ten" - the most powerful endorsement of the EU and alternative narrative for the left within the EU framework ever delivered

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 23:35

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Tesseraction posted:

Out of interest how would you defend the EU from a left-wing perspective that isn't a negative about leaving but a positive about staying?

The notion of workers having the right to migrate across the EU, and have access to healthcare, social services, and even to higher education anywhere in the 27 state bloc is an incredibly powerful left wing idea.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 00:35

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Gort posted:

As we've seen from the Lib-dems, opposing Brexit is not some magic vote-generating machine.

Erm take a look at quite a lot of the post Brexit votes mate. The LDs have made huge gains from absolutely nothing in the aftermath of the 2015 election.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 00:37

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Gort posted:

I'd argue that they were at a historic low at that point due to their capitulation to the tories, so some rebound was inevitable once people started to forget why they're so godawful.

OK but there's a rebound and then there's taking out some high profile MPs and quite a few councils with gigantic vote swings.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 00:45

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Tesseraction posted:

Now try and defend that to the British public.

Seeing as you're Johnny Leaver, what was wrong with that argument?

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 00:47

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Guavanaut posted:

Durham yes, but should Middlesbrough be ruled from Newcastle or York?

Newcastle, because York has to put up with their pisshead shiny suited day drinkers any time the races are on which frankly is burdensome enough.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 12:54

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

The main actual ruckus wrt York and Leeds council is who gets to be in charge of Harrogate, which both think they should be despite both being really dissimilar to HGate.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 12:57

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Baron Corbyn posted:

You've given me nasty flashbacks to when I used to live on Micklegate. Race day was a loving nightmare.

Yeah I used to live down the way from the Knavesmire myself.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 12:58

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 19:21

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

jabby posted:

First Tory to speak after Sajid Javid complains that a Labour council built 6000 homes 'unnecessarily' on green belt land, and why wasn't the government able to stop them?

Quite a spectacular return to form.

Probably because of that local government duty not to lose public money in the courts.

e: fields are in fact not useless and are good.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 14:16

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