UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie

Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed.
Jeremy Corbyn	95	18.63%
Dennis Skinner	53	10.39%
Angus Robertson	20	3.92%
Tim Farron	9	1.76%
Paul Ukips	7	1.37%
Robot Lenin	105	20.59%
Tony Blair	28	5.49%
Pissflaps	193	37.84%
Total:	510 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

From PYF:

VitalSigns posted:

Someone tricked me into going to an MLM pitch and the waste of a few hours was almost worth it in retrospect just for the first-hand experience of seeing what an MLM sales pitch looks like.

The presenters did their best to preemptively turn you against your family and poison that well from the very beginning. "Your family will tell you it's a scam, it's a pyramid scheme, but they're just afraid to take a risk to build their own business. They want you to fail! Don't keep negative people in your life!"

Sounds familiar...

# ¿ Mar 6, 2017 18:19

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 21:49

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

jabby posted:

Do you really want to be in the same bucket as the Express?

Jeremy's totally fine to do so over Brexit.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2017 19:18

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

goddamnedtwisto posted:

Lol if you think *anything* gets deleted by Facebook.

If only the pedophiles called Cathy Brennan a fake goth.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2017 18:26

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Tiocfaidh �r l�

# ¿ Mar 7, 2017 21:33

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Hezza has been sacked as a government advisor for leading the anti-Hard Brexit rebellion on the Tory benches in the Lords.

# ¿ Mar 8, 2017 01:09

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

I love NewsThump :allears:

# ¿ Mar 8, 2017 16:12

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Tory manifesto, 2015:

# ¿ Mar 8, 2017 16:46

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

https://twitter.com/officialbwfc/status/839170870480351242

# ¿ Mar 8, 2017 18:56

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

kustomkarkommando posted:

The people of Bradford East seem to have disagreed

Nah, Bradford East had an MP in David Ward! :haw:

In other news, Katie Hopkins found to have libelled Jack Monroe. �24k damages and looking like substantial costs on top.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2017 15:31

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/840322323622350848

# ¿ Mar 11, 2017 21:39

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Namtab posted:

Looks like their protest against themselves + others will partially work then!

It's not the first time Corbyn's protested against himself�

https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/780361445326331904

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 00:44

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

So Labour abstained on the EU nationals amendment when it came back to the Lords. loving typical.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:07

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

It's a complete poo poo show of a reason that Baroness Hayter gave, though:

quote:

Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, the shadow Brexit minister, is winding up now for Labour.

She says the government has rejected the Lords� stance on EU nationals.

She says Labour will continue to press the government to provide certainty to EU nationals. Labour will consider how it can use �imaginative� parliamentary routes to continue to press its case.

She says the government has made it clear that it will not back down on this.

Labour will continue to fight for the interests of EU nationals, she says.

I know a rather unimaginative parliamentary route: voting for an amendment on primary legislation.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:09

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Labour abstain on the parliamentary sovereignty amendment.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:11

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

They could if Labour had a spine.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:13

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

mfcrocker posted:

Yeah I mean, Baroness Royall was pretty clear that if the government are going to ignore 100-strong defeats there's gently caress all benefit in ping-pong, the amendments aren't getting accepted and that's that.

There's honestly no benefit to firing this amendment back, it's political suicide.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/841388239491612673

Rather strange definition of "every stage".

mehall posted:

This.

Ultimatwly the commons can push things through, and May has the numbers.
Even with Labour abstention, she still pressed everyone enough that even Ken Clarke returned to the party line.

They keep putting the amendment back in. Again and again and again, if needs be.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:18

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

forkboy84 posted:

What benefit is there to delaying the inevitable by a few months more? Is it not better that Brexit happens before a 2020 general election than after it?

The Lords is a pisspoor revising chamber if it refuses to revise lovely legislation.

OwlFancier posted:

I suppose one of the advantages of being a lib dem is you can engage in worthless stunts for zero benefit because really, what do you have to lose?

Sorry, that seems to be Corbyn's modus operandi now; after all, he keeps protesting against himself.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:21

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

mfcrocker posted:

How do you imagine this goes? Because I imagine it goes like this:

Back to Commons.
Passed without amendment.
Back to Commons.
Passed without amendment.
Back to Commons.
Passed without amendment.
Public support drops for Lords.
Back to Commons.
Support drops further.
etc

At the very extreme edge, this goes a whole year without the country somehow setting itself on fire and the Parliament Act is invoked and it becomes law.

Why is this useful?

If the Tories did it on reducing the age of consent, then I think Labour would be justified on doing it on quite possibly the biggest constitutional issue of a generation.

Like, even if you saw the EU citizens amendment as disposable, there is nothing wrong with the Lords insisting on parliamentary sovereignty. After all, didn't we vote to Take Back Control�?

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:28

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

jBrereton posted:

What was false about it?

The whole part about being dragged out of the EU against their will.

Still, over four centuries, we've gone from Parliament committing regicide to ensure its sovereignty to Parliament ceding its own sovereignty because a couple of hundred people are scared they'll lose their jobs-for-life.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:38

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

forkboy84 posted:

Not the question though TinTower. How does a years delay before the inevitable actually benefit anything? You acknowledge that the Lords can't stop the Commons from doing what it wants, simply delay it, I assume? So what comes from it?

The possibility to elect a government that will stop Throwing-Ourselves-Off-The-Cliff Brexit before the timer runs out.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:41

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Prince John posted:

Just checking, but you realise the Lords can only do this once more before parliament can bypass them?

The only thing reasonably in their power is to delay the bill by a maximum of a year, but I don't think that's in anyone's interests. Both the EU and the UK want to end the uncertainty as soon as possible.

Ping-pong is theoretically infinite. The government would have to wait for a new session of Parliament.

jBrereton posted:

OK but that doesn't negate them not being in the EU after independence either in 2014 or 2019.

SNP: We want independence please.
Tories: You can only stay in the EU if you vote to stay in the UK.
Voters: Okay, then.
Tories: nvm lol

e: Nice to see Labour waving the white flag after only two hours.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/841389197005053953

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:43

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

forkboy84 posted:

So you think that once Article 50 is enacted a new government would be able to put to put brakes on it? Who would this new government be? You think the Liberal Democrats can be the largest party in Westminster? I admire your optimism but I'm not sure it's particularly realistic. Would be happy to be wrong.

Well, Article 50 is revokable until the day of departure.

There is also the possibility of a new government only seeking a Brexit that keeps us in the EEA, for example.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:46

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

mfcrocker posted:

So... in 2 months?

It requires a year after the first Second Reading.

Namtab posted:

If they delay the thing until March 2020 it makes no difference, because the ge will be in May

The civil service would literally revolt if the government made any moves after the dissolution of Parliament (which tends to take place around this time of the year in election years).

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:50

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Namtab posted:

Article 50 is only reversible with unilateral consensus. Do you really think that the eu is gonna let us say "nah forget it" and go back to chill special snowflake status

They wouldn't need to "let us". We can unilaterally revoke it. That wasn't even contested by the government in Miller v. SoSExEU.

Pochoclo posted:

There's no point in denying reality, Brexit is gonna happen. The best we can hope for is:
- Guarantees for UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK
- A non-poo poo trade deal
- Passporting rights for London (or kiss the finance industry goodbye)

It's a shame that Labour folded like a house of cards on this tonight, and indeed most times these issues have been put to Parliament.

forkboy84 posted:

Staying in the EEA without any say in what it does is a very poo poo idea.

And yes, Article 50 is revocable in a legal sense, but is there political will on the continent?

I see you've also not answered who this mythical government who would revoke it would be led by.

Indeed, it is a poo poo idea, but it's less poo poo than Turbo-hosed Brexit.

If that government is a Lib Dem government, I'd be happy, but I'd be also happy with a Labour government who would ensure that our economy doesn't go off the cliff.

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Given that the entire 2015 Tory manifesto that lead to Brexit was a positioning tool to another pathetic Liberal/Tory coalition I conclude this:

GO gently caress YOURSELF!!!!!!

lol was it gently caress. The referendum was always a sop to UKIP floaters.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2017 23:54

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

I've heard good stuff about this Clive Lewis lad.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 00:11

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

The idea that the Tories were presuming a continuation of the Coalition doesn't match up with their well-documented decapitation campaign against the Lib Dems.

Doubly so the idea they'd ditch the referendum in a coalition. Because in recent history a party dropping a key election pledge due to entering coalition has never caused that party to undergo an electoral meltdown.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 00:24

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

At least one good thing came out of tonight:

https://twitter.com/libdempress/status/841411381526200324

(the press office is top bants)

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 00:47

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Do you think the Tories really thought they could get away with ditching the EU referendum promise, after what happened to the Lib Dems?

They could've got away with ditching the tax credits cuts, but the EU referendum was front and centre of their campaign in 2015.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 00:51

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

It's almost as if there wasn't a party consistently on 12% in the polls near the election that posed a danger to the Tories' hopes of keeping their Eurosceptic voters�

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 00:57

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

https://twitter.com/biuk/status/841372345289846784

Corbyn fails to show up for his own rally. What a loving idiot.

TinTower fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Mar 14, 2017

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 01:02

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

The Lords insisted on more rounds of ping pong on retroreflective tape on HGVs than they did about parliamentary sovereignty.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 01:30

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

mfcrocker posted:

Amazing how things differ when the government doesn't ignore 100+ peer defeats.

Seriously, I can't quite tell if you're just doing the dull party political thing or you actually don't understand how Lords works.

Both Houses of Parliament must agree to the same text for a bill to pass. That's common to nearly all bicameral legislatures.

Even with the Parliament Act, the Lords still retains a right to amend legislation and insist on its amendments.

The Lords can delay a bill for a year. We barely even went a week here.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 10:47

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

mfcrocker posted:

What does delaying this bill for a year achieve? The government is literally never accepting these amendments; if they were, they'd have done it in the face of a 100 peer defeat.

There are three years until the next general election.

Article 50 allows two years of negotiation.

The government were "literally never accepting" the amendments to the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000. Doesn't mean the Tories didn't stop trying to kill the bill.

learnincurve posted:

The lords is mostly there to stop people sneaking stuff though, and as a "are you sure"

I'm pretty sure that the latter applies to the parliamentary sovereignty amendment, at least.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 10:55

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

forkboy84 posted:

And the election will be in May. 3 years from now is March, not May. May comes after March.

Parliament will get dissolved, at the latest, in March 2020.

The Civil Service wouldn't even implement the Pet All Kittens Act during purdah, let alone the greatest constitutional change in a century.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 11:45

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

https://twitter.com/j_amesp/status/841537108980449280

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 11:52

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

feedmegin posted:

In addition to everyone else pointing out you don't know how the gently caress our constitution works and/or have time travelled from 1910, you realise the government could do exactly what it threatened to do back then and get the Queen to appoint as many pro-Brexit Lords as are necessary to vote things through? You may want to read a GCSE History textbook, just saying.

Every government since Lloyd George has threatened to pack the Lords. Neither has done so because using the Parliament Act has sufficed.

Also, if you travelled back to 1910, you'd realise that King Edward refused to appoint new Liberal peers unless the Lords voted down a Parliament Bill that was a clear part of their election manifesto.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 14:10

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

big scary monsters posted:

I have to say I've found the attitude both of Labour and this thread on opposing the government on Article 50 a little baffling.

"It's right that Labour whip for this legislation, voting against it would be a pointless act of symbolism. We'll improve it with amendments."

"Oh well clearly those amendements were never going to get through anyway. Yes that was definitely enough time to debate them. Let's see what Lords have to say. "

"Well of course it was a fine gesture but it would be pointless for Lords to block the government further, they'd only lose in a year's time. And it would make them unpopular."

When exactly does the time come to oppose this hugely damaging Tory policy? Why would May moderate her attitude or negotiate with the Houses if they will roll over the second she gives them a nasty look?

Delaying Brexit for a year would not be a pointless symbolic act, it's pretty much the only bargaining chip the opposition parties have. It would be a hugely embarrassing defeat for May personally - there's no way she'd even be in power in a year if she failed to negotiate with Lords on that. She'd be a laughing stock in Europe and you'd practically be able to hear the knives being sharpened on the Tory back benches.

Like you can say the government will win eventually, and that's certainly true if they face no meaningful opposition whatsoever. But I'd rather see the attempt made, because doing absolutely nothing is definitely not going to improve matters. If May has to make concessions to stick to her timetable, that's a good thing. If she has to pack Lords with her cronies just to pass legislation (assuming she even can), that's a sign of how inept she is and a damaging display of how far she's willing to go against accepted practice in British democracy to push through the legislation she's staked her premiership on. Labour should be taking every opportunity to stick the boot in and hassle her on this, because it makes her look weak, and neither her party nor the electorate will put up with a weak prime minister.

What's worse is that the attitude described, from the Labour establishment, is exactly what got Jeremy Corbyn elected as Labour leader in the first place.

learnincurve posted:

@ don't lol me

It's a case of the boy who cried wolf.

I'm not saying a recession won't happen. In my opinion it will happen, but the problem is that the wealth and resources devision in this county mean that London will be hosed far far harder than the midlands and the north because we are getting pretty screwed right now anyway. Perhaps if things had been fairer in the first place then this would never have happened.

If you want an example, this new high speed railway. It's going to carve up huge amounts of countryside so that Londoners can get from London to Sheffield 15 mins quicker. The poor already can't afford the regular train fares so who exactly will be using it?

Well, HS2 is actually being built to provide extra capacity to a line that we've reached the political, financial, and physical limit for upgrading, which we should've built 30 years ago, but sure, let's go with the "toy trains for the rich" caricature.

TinTower fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Mar 14, 2017

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 14:50

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

HS2 is a good thing anyway; the key problem with the WCML is that three types of traffic flows (commuter, intercity, and freight) need to use the southern section and it realistically only has room for two.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 15:06

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

MikeCrotch posted:

I would not be surprised if there's a bunch of "Real Women" transphobia going on and talking about doing things "naturally".

That's definitely an issue.

Green Party Conference actually passed a pretty decent trans policy last year, which passed several hundred to eight.

So now those people (who include Bea Campbell) are now called the Hateful Eight.

I think the most vocal Green TERF these days is a middle aged bloke who is trying to hard to impress the Bindels of the world.

forkboy84 posted:

6! Could have been more if SNP voters could be bothered to listen to how the Scottish Parliament voting system works but there you go.

Yeah, Both Votes SNP was a colossal clusterfuck for the SNP. The Tories gained the most from the Labour vote collapsing on the List.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 17:11

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 21:49

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

forkboy84 posted:

I got so mad trying to convince many SNP voters that both votes SNP was a waste of their vote & they should vote for another pro-indy party on the Regional List, be it Green or RISE. One of those situations where I was proven right and didn't really feel good about it. Managed 4 MSPs across 2 regions. loving idiots. I know it's not necessarily the most instinctive system, but we've had it for over 15 years, and it's not that complicated. Greens were 6,000 seats shy of picking up a 2nd seat in Glasgow, meanwhile the SNP got 111,101 & picked up zero seats.

It's part of the reason why I prefer STV, as it's both preferential and proportional. Geekery about quotas and fractional transfers aside, it's pretty simple for someone to grasp: "I'd like these people elected and in this order".

I'd be happy to settle for AMS or AV, though.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 17:40

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