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Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Man none of the news coming out of the USA is good.
Net neutrality will be dismantled by the FCC
Trump is rigging the justice system with federal judges that support his views.
The tax code is getting rigged so that any government after the republicans won’t be able to fix things that aren’t their fault leading to another republican government.

This is like Ronald Reagan on steroids. Trump is made of Teflon. And it seems most of america is too racist and would rather screw over minorities than vote for their own interests outside screwing minorities.
Is this the end guys?

It’s like all the laws designed to keep the Us govt accountable are being flouted on the regular. I would rather deal with 12 years of George W Bush than another month of a trump presidency. It’s making the entire planet morally and intellectually bankrupt. And pretty soon the environment will be irreparably hosed too.

The last time America had a government like this we got Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and FDR.
This time I can’t see anything happening except a lifetime of republican dominated senate and congress with a 2 term trump presidency if there isn’t outright dictatorship.

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Nov 23, 2017

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Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Crowsbeak posted:

1. HOw can this not be returned through pressure on lawmakers and electing a president who supports Its restoration?
2. Yeah, and then lets makepeople not trust it so it can be changed.
3. HOw is it that dems would never be able to unfuck it?

If there is one thing that ensures the GOP's vicotry it is not someone like Trump, it is people deciding that nothing can be done afterwords. I mean plenty can be done. Hell maybe we can work toward a system where in fifty years advocating greed is good gets you put in a camp where you don't get to leave till you say you were wrong to say that and thank the system for having sent you there.

The problem with right wing legislation is that it’s harder to back track. Let’s say for example net neutrality is removed. The providers will make so much money off this that they’ll be able to lobby and shut down any attempts to bring it back.
It’s a bit like privatizing a public asset and then trying to nationalize it again. It never works. You’d need another severe depression that somehow bankrupts telecom providers along with other industries so there’d be no choice but to have government step in and nationalize it and then reintroduce that legislation.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Well I hope you’re right. It’s easier to ban or regulate something before the cat is out of the bag. The next time you try to bring back net neutrality regs you’re taking away something. Having something and then losing it again is worse than not having it at all.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Crowsbeak posted:

1. Yes, as hard to backtrack as Social Security? Or Medicare?
2/ Lobbying only works when you elect poo poo stains who will listen to them and not thier constituents. Also it works if people ar enot involved to change a law.
3. Yeah you don't need that, you just need enough normals to be pissed off to nationalize a large company.

Really Kraftwerk I would say you are providing a great example of how the neoliberals frame things so that those who may be more inclined towards a actual just world are silenced. THey get into your head, pretending that when their sociopathic policies are just the natural state of things, while also suggesting that because their allies, the corporate parasites are now making more money,you just can't prevent them from continuing to make money. Do not listen to that argument, because it's only meant to make you not want to change the world.

So how do you propose we can weather the inevitable corporate media assault against any left wing president or party? The minute you try and harm business interests the entire media will destroy you. Trump looks unstoppable regardless of his personal conduct and I think it has everything to do with him looking after private business interests.

Look how Clinton was nearly impeached for sexual misconduct and now all you hear is crickets. People talk about it but his position seems unassailable. If anything discussing his tweets and bad behaviour keeps the media from talking about how hosed up the country is getting from all the covert legislation going on behind the scenes.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Crowsbeak posted:

1. You think they havn't been attacking already like sience the 90s?
2. Create our own alternate media, use internet to fund. TYT sucks but it has been successful this way. This can be repeated.
3. Trump is not unstoppable. Its just that the dems are controlled by corportewhores and people infested with brainworms.
4. He should have been impeached, and the way you bring up the women Trump assaulted is by actually trying to bring them forward.

5. If politics make you this anxious, I suggest you black all newsites from your browser, and just watch Netflix.

@Greyjoy, you mean like say trying to get legislation passed in the states to allow municipalities to crate their own broadband? Or say legislation that would encourage more then one or two internet providers in an area?

What makes the TYT so bad? I find their stuff rather cathartic same with Jimmy Dore.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

So what does this thread think will happen in the midterm elections?
I heard they’re rapidly finalizing various voter suppression tactics to prevent democrats from winning anywhere.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Ardennes posted:

I think it is looking better for the Democrats than it was a few months ago, but everything would have to fall into place to retake the House and the Senate may be a wash. Ultimately, between gerrymandering and voting suppression, the Democrats really need to not only beat but smash the GOP at the polls to make real progress.

That said, it is a year away so who really knows, we could be dealing with a totally different situation in a few months.

I’m seeing reports like this pop up:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/gutting-net-neutrality-is-a-death-knell-for-the-resistance/article37088279/
And it’s making me think the midterms will be a republican landslide. Or just status quo.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

You can’t run from this.
The US domestic policy acts as a gravitational pull that drives all other western countries into its orbit. You might get better social policies but the only country that’s trying to offer a credible leftist anti neoliberal candidate is the UK but I think Brexit will make that country significantly worse off regardless of who is in charge.

Economic globalization has weakened national governments to the point that they no longer have the power to really dictate how their economy works. The only difference between left and right now is what kind of tax cut someone is gonna get and how soon they’ll get it at the expense of social services. The rest is a difference of social and identity politics. It seemed like socially liberal policies would be an inevitability until the economic problems started loving over white people. Now we’re back to racially scapegoating everyone.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Boon posted:

No. What? How do you justify that belief?
This is a really simplistic explanation but if you really want to know why national governments are essentially an anachronism, get on YouTube and watch Mark Blythe or get his book on Austerity.
In the European Union Germany essentially dominates surrounding countries because those countries have lost control of their ability to print their own money and inflate their way out of debt. Meaning that these countries cannot take action to counter austerity because all the money they owe Germany has to be paid no matter what. So if you can’t declare bankruptcy and you can’t inflate your debt you are forced to take austerity agreements laid out by a foreign country who in turn is doing this to keep its own financial books in order to bail out its insolvent banks.

The problem is the more austerity you do the more your economy enters into a deflationary spiral as there’s less money being pumped into the system and less work being done on the public dime that could help stimulate employment and wage growth (ie public works projects).

The United States doesn’t have this problem but globalization has terrified every experience technocrat into maintaining the status quo or gradually making concessions to the investor class. It’s too easy for business to hide their money or leave US shores entirely if you take a hard line stance against them. So unless you had global cooperation against rent seeking capitalism we are past the point where any one country can do anything about this situation.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Chilichimp posted:

So you're saying a higher government body... has power it's member states?

I believe this to have been a feature, not a bug. The Mark Blythe youtube I did watch was good poo poo, I liked it, but the conclusion of it was that they should burn down Europe's economy and let it reassemble itself from the ashes like Russia.

If you really wanna laugh you should look into German auto industry supply chains. All the countries Hitler wanted to take over are now happily making his automobile parts at a heavily discounted price.

https://youtu.be/Bkm2Vfj42FY

Here’s a link that explains a lot of what’s going on in easy to understand language. I’d argue Mark Blyth is the Carl Sagan of political economics and has done a lot to discredit the neoliberal order in a very logical way while also explaining the discontent that led to the rise of right wing people like trump.

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Dec 2, 2017

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

This is a country that has had far far far worse circumstances than the present day. To argue that we're somehow going to plunge into some kind of bizarre Republican dominated oligarchy and never again be able to escape it doesn't make much sense when you look at how much worse things were in the Antebellum, The Gilded Age and the era of Jim Crow laws.
Yes we are rolling back on a lot of the progress we've made, but progress isn't necessarily a linear path. We now have the benefit in that through nostalgia or otherwise there was once a time when things were "better" than they were now which provides fuel for discontent as everyone gradually becomes poor and miserable.

The main challenges facing the budding left wing movement in the United States today is how you harness the pain, frustration and dissatisfaction the majority of this country's bottom 50% feel and channel it so that they support you.

For this there's a couple of obstacles you need to overcome:

1. How to indoctrinate them to your point of view
2. How to build a bridge between poor whites and other minorities so that they fight for a common ground against the wealthy.

The reason we are in this mess right now is because the moneyed classes have successfully managed to use race as a wedge issue to maintain their power. As long as you got people believing black people and Mexicans are the reason your $30 per hour supervisor job is now a $8.50 Wal-Mart job they will never rally in support of a left wing movement. Somehow you have to get them to look beyond what they see in front of them and understand that there's a bigger enemy that wants all of the poor to get hosed.

I believe that racism is a fairly recent invention. Consider Ancient Rome and civilizations in Antiquity - there weren't racial stigmas. While undoubtedly a lot of blacks were enslaved back then- this wasn't unique to them but rather a feature of societies back then who accepted that slavery was a consequence of being conquered by an invading power. Ultimately blacks in Rome were not differentiated from other races, they held citizenship, joined the army, owned land and so on.

Race is an issue in America because the wealthy classes of colonial North America needed a way to justify slavery to protect their bottom line. So they created a narrative that blacks were lesser beings, brutes, stupid etc. They came up with pseudoscience like measuring their skulls and using this to prove why they are subhuman and deserve to be enslaved. They created and used hate as a tool to protect their property (slaves) so they can continue to enrich themselves. I have no doubt that there's over a thousand years of pain, grievances and injustices that contribute to the division between blacks and whites in the US but the key to resolving these issues is understanding that capital, the wealthy, the investor class, the plantation owners etc are the real reason this is happening. They know poor whites and blacks would curb stomp them if they ever noticed that their collective misery is actually the fault of the wealthy rather than each other.

My first issue with the American Left is that they are suburban, virtue signalling, limousine liberals. They already come from a point of privilege and do not understand the economic divisions that plague their country. The only concern these people have with politics are the visible social issues and whatever it is that is currently trending - like having a woman become president just because she's a woman and not because her policies actually make sense and are good for the country. They are the reason the Democrat party is the ineffectual neoliberal mess that it is now. They aren't true socialists.

My second issue is that they alienate the people that are most marginalized by the class warfare the Republicans are engaging in now. They have allowed the Republicans to tar and feather words like "Class warfare", "Socialism", "Wealth Redistribution", "Taxation" etc so that the emotional response these words created in the minds of poor working class Americans is that their lives will get worse through left wing policies that these words describe. Then right after that you got white liberals who aggressively attack their working class brethren, demonizing them, treating them like they're stupid, calling them racists and just shouting them down because they support Donald Trump. There is absolutely no outreach and yet these are the people you need for a socialist movement and these are the people who would most benefit from socialism. Yet this urban hippie movement that cares more about platitudes and looking like they aren't racist is quick to cut these people loose and let the right wingers claim them because there's no places for them in polite democrat circles precisely because the class difference makes them reviled.

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Dec 3, 2017

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Lightning Knight posted:

I mean, what is anarchism to you? How would you sell it to the mostly leftist crowd in this thread? That’s a start.

I personally don’t think anarchism can succeed, and I think we need structure and governmental control to prevent abuse by the few against the many, but I’m legitimately interested to hear what you think of as an ideal to push for, for an organized left anarchist movement.

We tried anarchy when we were just apes swinging through the trees and even then there were biologically enforced social structures.

Anarchy doesn't work because it runs contrary to human nature. The whole concept of a social contract is you forfeit certain freedoms (kill whoever you want, take what you want, do whatever you want) so that you can pool resources together for protection, mutual prosperity and general survival. You might be a terrible hunter but you do a good job at building houses- hence you meet a hunter, build him a house and he provides you with some food in exchange. Now your chances of survival increase exponentially. To keep all of this running properly in case someone tries to take advantage of you, there are laws. You start with the basics like the Code of Hammurabi (Eye for an eye) and you build it up from there as social mores change with the times.

We are social creatures- we depend on society and society depends on us. I think anarchist movements are more about destroying society as we understand it today due to a lack of faith in the system but I believe if they ever succeeded we'd eventually gravitate towards rebuilding a new society from that chaos.

Case in point - the Roman order capitulated into anarchy and banditry only for us to rebuild society around feudal structures just because it got so far out of hand everyone needed protection and a system to keep them alive.

As has already been mentioned if we established anarchy, the biggest, strongest and richest people would just use this power to subjugate everyone else and we would once again coalesce into a society of rules and power structures.

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Dec 3, 2017

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Are there any contingency plans should Bernie ever fall ill due to his advanced age? Does he have a protege waiting to take over? It seems awfully messed up if the only credible left wing voice in america is an old man in his 70s.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

The main issue I have with running Keith Ellison on Bernie’s ticket is the same one the democrat party had with having Henry Wallace run for Roosevelt’s final term. I could see the party machinery try to stop this and put “their guy” in.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

WampaLord posted:

Full employment in an age of increasing automation does seem like a very neoliberal view at this point.

There aren't going to be enough jobs for full employment. We need to be thinking UBI, not jobs.

My issue with UBI is I don’t think it’ll ever be as good as having a job. You’re not gonna get 70k per year on UBI. Best case scenario it puts the bulk of the population on a subsistence wage.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

That's. . . probably ok though.

Like, a UBI doesn't have to be as good as having a good job. It just has to be enough to provide a minimum standard of living so that laborers can always strike / quit and fall back on the UBI if the terms offered by employers become evil.

Of course it’d be great to have a safety net. I just don’t think UBI will be anything more than a platitude. I think you won’t be able to afford the cost of living under UBI unless you move to the wilderness in the Midwest somewhere. I think that when UBI does get introduced it’ll result in a two tier system of neighbourhoods with haves and have nots. I think prices will go up enough that UBI won’t help you and people will still be upset about being unemployed. Part of the reason for this will be because all the extra gains made from automation will be syphoned off into the pockets of the rich as extra profits/dividends rather than a serious price decrease for goods and services..

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Mueller has just subpoenaed Trump’s bank records.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-idUSKBN1DZ0XN

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking


The big question is if DB would sell him out or cover for him?

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

From a purely cynical devils advocate perspective: Maybe the real path to victory is an economically left anti immigration candidate who doesn’t offend minorities but doesn’t get too radical with social change that would make white Americans think there’s a “blacklash” coming.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Sephyr posted:

Possibly. I still think that it will be gradual enough (they are saving the best public healthcare system in the world for their greedy selves, after all) that most of it will be countered by sleazy gerrymandering, laws to change how electoral votes are counted (once they manage to split californiait's basically game over), and plain old suppression that the change will be a slight bump rather than a crash.

That, and we seem to have a lot of young, new assholes revering reactionary politics as a mean in itself, and the hot new professional class of app-makers and entrepreneurs is viciously conservative once you take weed and gay marriage out of the question.

This right here is why the youth aren’t gonna be some fountain of left wing politics you’d expect. By and large a good chunk of young people I know are economically conservative - believing the welfare state is full of abusers and that people are self made and have to hustle. A lot of these attitudes were born in spite of the political situation because they grew up, struggled with student loans etc and then got lucky. Others jumped on the tech bandwagon and managed to make money. So how because they “made it” they don’t see any problems and are contemptuous of government anything because the government never helped them.

A lot of these people are socially progressive to various degrees and would very easily slide into the Hilary Clinton wing of the democrat party with pride.

The rest are a mix of libertarians and alt right people.

Again the abject failure of government to provide any kind of support to millennials has also discredited economically left political thinking as they were left to fend for themselves. Very few can see beyond their individual self interest and support an economically left leaning platform. I can count such people on one hand.

Weed, LGBT acceptance and anti-racism are all the republicans need to adopt to guarantee their eternal control of the US political system.

In my opinion if there was ever a dramatic realignment of American politics it would look something like this:
1. An economically conservative libertarian-lite/neoliberal party with inclusiveness towards minorities, LGBT and immigrants.

2. A socially conservative economically left party that represents religious people, racist rurals, disenfranchised blue collar workers and farmers.

I think this would result in an extremely competitive political landscape and more realistically represents the values of the American electorate.

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Dec 6, 2017

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

With all respect. It’s kind of hard to worry about the plight of minorities in America when your entire rust belt town has been shuttered and boarded up, as you plunge into poor health, debt and opiate addiction due to deindustrialization and vulture capitalism. I think what happens to a black person in Oakland or whether gay people have rights in Alabama is the least of your concerns. Especially wen the party you’ve reliably and loyally supported for the last 30 years has sold you out and the only solution it has to your problems is gender neutral bathrooms and immigration reform. Think about that. Put yourself in that situation.

Most of the people in this thread are not from these states/counties that flipped red in the last election.

This is why a laser focus on economic inequality and a rebuilding of the welfare state and the economic fortunes of lower classes of all spectrums is so critically important.

It’s a lot easier to worry about someone else’s problems when you’re properly fed, clothed and aren’t stressing as you watch your community collapse into destitution. You want to fix race issues in America? There’s not gonna be a debate about that until you fix the wealth distribution problem.

Remember that the 60s had a fairer distribution of wealth for white people. They had the time, means and resources to go out and protest side by side with the civil rights movement and later the anti-Vietnam movement. It’s a lot harder to give a poo poo about other people when you yourself are existentially threatened. Fix wealth and welfare and then you’ll have the breathing room to fix the rest.

The atrocious conditions of the Middle East is why it’s so easy to take what would have been a kind family man and radicalize him into a suicide bomber if his family gets a sweet payout that leaves them taken care of for life.

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 6, 2017

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Lightning Knight posted:

I'm from Wisconsin and I come bearing bad news: it wasn't about indifference to minorities, it was about scapegoating minorities for the crimes of the rich, hth.

And no, there's really no reason that "building a social democracy to help everyone" need imply an abandonment or lack of focus on the unique plights of minorities, or vice versa. Implying such is disingenuous and dumb.

If your class war doesn't fight racial injustice you're a charlatan and if your fight against racial injustice doesn't include economic equality as a goal you're an idiot.

Then movements like metoo, the gay rights activists, BLM and labour unions should all be working together to help eachother out.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Koalas March posted:

It just goes to show you how much they run into PoC/lgbt people. They can't even fathom us living in the same loving states 🙈🙈🙈

I’m not throwing them under the bus. Nor do I want to throw them under the bus. Of course I’m also aware that PoCs live in the rust belt.

My main point is that it’s easier to care about other groups of people when your group is made to feel taken care of. Otherwise you become vulnerable to scapegoating tactics and divisive politics that prevent you from forming the coalitions necessary to topple the oligarchs who put all of you in that situation.

It is a cynical opinion driven by my belief that a lot of people are driven by self interest. If you can assure that people are taken care of and they become comfortable enough to have the time to think about how segregated their society is they can start taking steps to joining the bigger struggle for racial equality as well.

The root of all oppression is money. To defeated the oppressed need to all look out for eachother. That means women’s movements need to harness their organizational power for more than just women’s rights. They need to start standing up for labour. Labour needs to start standing up for women. The LGBT community needs to stand up for both.

All of these people are collectively being oppressed by the current system and stand to gain far more if they build a coalition that supports each others interests. But that also means not throwing your labour buddies under the bus just because they didn’t use the correct pronoun.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The left needs to be more unified in that sense and the neoliberals need to be excluded.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Why is it that even the neoliberal “centre left” politicians most of us hate get into far more trouble than Republicans for the same scandals?

Roy Moore- a literal child molester is going to get a senate seat. Donald Trump is becoming president despite proven sex assault tapes. Meanwhile the minute a democrat even does anything remotely improper everybody loses their minds.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Here’s something I don’t understand. America is one of the most armed countries in the world. It’s even easier under Trump to get as many guns and as much ammo as you please.

The right wingers and police are becoming increasingly militant in their methods and the normal political process isn’t working and being subjugated towards authoritarianism.

The current tax bill fundamentally violates the reasons the USA even exists in the first place. It’s taxation without representation. The people weren’t properly represented when this bill was hurriedly passed on a cafe napkin.

Didn’t the founding fathers use the 2nd ammendment as a way to provide for another revolution if the US ever begins a descent into tyranny? Why aren’t left wing groups arming themselves?

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

It sure is hard turning out to vote when you realize the democrat party is a billionaire’s hedge against the Republicans losing.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

That's been basically true of most successful progressive movements in America's history. Like, both Roosevelts were fairly frank about being the capitalist alternative to socialist revolution a la Russia.

So, yes, but that's how progressive movements win in America.

That’s just realpolitik. Now that the Soviet Union has been thrown into the dustbin of history we are stuck in a consensus where there is no other alternative unless some populist throws a fresh coat of paint on socialism and tries it again. Except that didn’t happen as socialism is still fresh in our minds so we decided to try authoritarian fascism again instead.

America squandered its opportunity to affect real change when they elected Obama with a majority and he and his democrats proceeded to lame duck the entire administration. The democrats are shackled by their wealthy paymasters and yet required to present a credible altnerative to America to maintain the ruse that there’s a functional political system rather than a sock puppet theatre for the rich to dominate the poor.

I remember being shouted down by hardcore democrats for even suggesting nothing would change except the skin colour of the president when Obama was elected. History has proven me right and those same people now stay home demoralized because of it. I wish I was wrong but I understand very well that if you could change anything by voting they wouldn’t let you do it.

Even if Sanders did become president I promise you by 2018 every seat in Congress will be a blue dog or republican to ensure nothing of his agenda ever succeeds. He’d have been remembered as an ineffectual one term president who broke all his promises and wound up like Jimmy Carter. Then trump wouldve won in 2020.

There will never be a credible left wing alternative because of the two party system and because leftists will never be able to muster the fragile support needed to maintain the momentum for their movement the way the idle rich can casually drop millions in cash to have their guys maintain power.

The best possible outcome of a left leaning congress would be if they found a way to overturn citizens united, ban PACs and set strict campaign donation limits to level the playing field. But why would you do that when you’re guaranteed a golden parachute if you kowtow to the robber barons?

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Dec 11, 2017

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

What’s the jist of the Democrats unity conference? Is it a neoliberal co-opting/suppression of left wing elements within the party?

I’m happy Jones won if only to deny the republican agenda somewhat. But I hope this victory doesn’t vindicate the milquetoast establishment democrats and continues to advance the agenda of the left wing side.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

C. Everett Koop posted:

And there were also polls that people who made up their minds in the past few days broke hard for Moore, because the GOP Base Always Comes Home.

Now that everyone's had an evening to celebrate, it's time to face the reality that the dems didn't win this race, the GOP lost it. It took an incredible set of circumstances: the GOP running someone who was nearly beyond the pale by Alabama standards much less human ones, the dems running someone who had actually done a goddamn thing for PoC, who once again took one for the team in coming out in historic numbers to carry the ball, along with a heightened environment due to Trump trying to rampage his way into authoritarianism. Change any of those factors and the GOP keeps the seat in comfortable fashion.

The issue is going to be the lessons that dems should learn from this election and will inevitably fail to: that engaging with the historically disenfranchised is a good thing and throwing all of their support into trying to pick off the rare GOP voter who takes a step back from staring into the abyss is a fools' errand. The dems usual centrist trash playbook didn't win a drat vote; it was the ground game, fully black owned and operated, that got the job done. And it was in full knowledge that there's not going to be a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow. The GOP outright hates PoC, the dems only consider them a useful tool. It'd be amazing what could happen if a political party came about that actually gave a poo poo about minorities beyond taking them for granted but I'm not gonna hold my breath there.

We also need to realize that Moore was an astoundingly bad candidate beyond his pedophilia and xenophobia. His campaign was a clusterfuck of people who've drunk the far-right kool-aid and thought that they didn't even need to show up to win, and they were nearly right. Luther Strange wins that race, not in blowout fashion but comfortable enough for pundits to keep their narrative that the dems might have a chance at not getting their asses completely kicked in 2018, ignoring that the dems Are A Waste and will find ways to lose winnable races.

This is another GOP Own Goal similar to their failure to repeal the ACA and if you really want to reach for a silver lining, it could be that we've seen that there is such a thing as someone too revolting for even deep south Republicans to vote for, which might be bad for future dem elections but it serves to raise the bar a hair which is good all around. It messes with the GOP's electoral math a little bit, not enough to stop the tax bill and the map is still real bad for dems in 2018 but it's slightly better than it was on Monday. If you want to bury Steve Bannon for ruining things go for it, but he still got Trump in office and that has far-reaching consequences that a bad Senator from a blood-red state.

The real lesson to be learned here is that white males continue to be a cancer on the face of this country and this planet and nothing will truly improve until we exterminate every single last one of them. The way forward is only through women and PoC. There is no reason for the dems to run a white male for any national or statewide office in 2018, in 2020, going forward. They are not allies, they are not helpful, they are not needed, they are not wanted. The sooner they're all gone, the better.

The dems didn't win last night. The GOP lost and PoC won.
You know part of the right wing narrative here is that if you let progressives win there will be reprisals against whites. Don’t feed into that poo poo. I’m a white male who obviously supports progressive candidates. But if you were running for office talking like that I’d stay home. What I want to see are any candidates that espouse a strong spirit of civic nationalism and economically left governance. If that means having women and POC in charge then that’s great. But don’t lump me up with the neoliberal graybeards running the show.

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Dec 13, 2017

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

C. Everett Koop posted:

You really wanna stan for whites after yesterday?

I want to stand with people who believe in equal rights, intellectualism, common decency and the advancement of mankind and the common good, regardless of race creed or gender. Talking about killing all the whites may feel good and you are right that some old white men are the reason for the mess we are in. But not all.

So unless you believe that we should exterminate the white race and leave the world to everyone else I suggest you nuance you statements a little bit.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

It looks like the tax bill is going to pass without any challenge. If the republicans don’t somehow ban opposition parties I really don’t see how anything will change until boomers die out. It’s not like a democrat and senate majority is going to go and raise taxes back to what they should be.

I think the worst result out of all this will be the inevitable global economic crisis that will come from all this oligarchic excess. I have no idea how we will recover.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

sd6 posted:

There's still a few undecided Rs right? Or has that changed

So I’ve read. But I don’t think it’ll take much to get them to toe the party line. The wealthy seem to have a stranglehold on America. There’s too many racists and single issue voters who’d sooner see social security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, workers compensation etc abolished than allow a black person to have the same level of rights as they do.

Why is gerrymandering even a thing? Shouldn’t an independent bipartisan judicial committee draw out the district boundaries according to realistic population distributions? How far is this country going to fall before someone wises up and demands better? Do we have to go back to the times where we got paid in company tokens redeemable only at the company store? Maybe the tech industry will create their own blockchain currencies and forgo money entirely.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Say goodbye to Net Neutrality. I guess we can call it net neuterality now. The FCC vote to repeal has succeeded despite massive public outcry.

When is america going to admit that the corporations are running the show?

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Google and Amazon are setting up “smart districts” with the tacit approval of city governments. Essentially they’ll be running private feudal villages with carefully monitored apartments and smart homes. It’s gone beyond anything what Orwell has predicted.

I guess it’s all democratic and free as long as the one violating the rule of law and your rights is a private non government entity.

What is left to do? Voting doesn’t help, the Dems are worthless and the people are slack jawed mouth breathers with a vendetta against black people.

And everyone thinks they’ll be rich one day and they support the tax cuts etc because they’re convinced they’ll land their big break and benefit from the tax cuts.

It’s a new dark age.
Money is truth
Medicare - revoked
Free speech- revoked
Financial security- gone.
Women’s rights- suspended

It’s hitlers enabling act spread out over 4 administrations to empower oligarchs no one can even properly identify so there’s no person or institution to direct your anger at.

I would not be the least surprised if the current block chain craze will eventually result in companies creating their own block chain related sub currency and paying their employees with that instead of dollars creating a self contained economic ecosystem just for employees and no one else. If you get fired a hard coded return clause activated and all your tokens are revoked from your wallets preventing you from having any financial security.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Ytlaya posted:

Yeah, this is the thing to keep in mind about stuff like "kill all white people/men" memes. There is zero realistic risk of that actually happening, and - unlike minorities - white people always have the option of just leaving the few spaces where people say that kind of stuff for a society that, more often than not, will treat them just fine. Like, this sort of thing is only noticeable in certain social groups. If you're white, you can always step away from the SA forums (or whatever) and instantly be in a society that is 95% safe spaces where white people/men face no discrimination.

The only situation where this kind of thing can be obnoxious is when white people are saying it. I don't like the term "virtue signalling," but I do think that some white people say this kind of stuff as a sort of social "lubricant" to fit in with certain social groups. But even then it's only obnoxious, and isn't an actual problem with worrying about.

There’s isn’t safe place for my socialist leanings. I might as well be a satanist in Salt Lake City.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Sephyr posted:

The fact that they haven't made gerrymandering a cause to shout about from the rooftops is already a decent sign that they won't. I've heard 3 reasons why they avoid messing with voting access:

1- Makes the crusty old whites mad, and if they see a PoC in the same voting line as them they might defect to the GOP (assuming they haven't already).

2- That some of the imbalances benefit the Dems so they just sweep it under the rug (Hard to sustain given that several of the recent elections had good Dem turnout/engagement being translated to meager results once all votes were tallied, leading to the current hollowed out national congressional profile.)

3- That the lion's share of the electred reps and their staff are just fine with being the gatekeepers of liberal thought and don't want no extra people getting their say in and messing up their beautiful consensus.

All three are either morally ghastly or tactically dumb to some degree, so feel free to decide what mix of them describes the current status quo. Compare your build with those of your friends! Fun for the whole family.

We all know what needs to happen. The way to solve America’s problems is so obvious and easy but both parties and every politicians and bureaucrat in Washington will perform the most astounding mental gymnastics that would make the entire Russian Olympic gymnastics team look like rank amateurs to tell you why it can’t happen or why we need to wait.

Nothing short of a revolution will change a drat thing.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Don’t you guys see that the bipartisanship schtick is just a way for Dems to try and conceal that they never had the intent to do anything progressive in the first place.

We can’t give you the healthcare bill you elected us to do because the two republicans in the house disagree with it and it wouldn’t be fair.

Why vote for a party that pretends to be the GOP when you can just get the GOP.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

viral spiral posted:

The Net Neutrality repeal coupled with this appallingly lovely Tax Bill will gently caress republicans in the 2018 midterms. A republican losing in the reddest of republican shitholes like Alabama has fully convinced me of this.

The reason why I'm not particularly heartened by this is that the democrats won't do anything about the neoliberal shithole the world is living in right now. There won't be some leftist resurgence there wont be a New Deal 2.0 which SHOULD have been rammed through congress when Obama had his majority.

What America fails to realize is that all that talk about compromise etc isn't incompetence- it's intent. They're doing it on purpose. This is not a party that cares for the plight of the working class, the unions or black people. They're just electoral pawns. It doesn't matter which party is in charge because they are both run by the same kinds of people.

Republicans are the drunken deadbeat abusive father who spends child welfare cheques on booze.
Democrats are the mother who forgets you in the car on a 100 degree day, or doesn't vaccinate you because they think it causes autism.

In both cases the country isn't getting what it needs to properly function. And it never will because it has been bought and whored out to the highest bidders and the veneral diseases of wealth inequality and racism will undo everything this country has built since the Eisenhower administration. Rampant debt is the crystal meth that completes this entire metaphor.

Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Dec 20, 2017

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Why is it that no western government wants to get into massive public works and infrastructure spending programs?
If they do it's always in the form of watered down public/private partnerships that turn into some sort of boondoggle that serves no one.
What happened to the old days when they build art deco style water treatment facilities, massive dams, roads and electrical lines? It seems we're content to let 1950s era infrastructure rot and crumble all around us and not lifting a finger to do anything new.

China is gonna kick everyone's rear end when it finishes the Belt & Road program.

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Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Common law systems have a provision for this via leasehold no?

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