TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

In the larger freelance writing industry, it is not super rare to get over $0.50USD a word: http://whopayswriters.com/#/results

Yeah, most of those companies have much bigger budgets than 95% of companies in the TG industry, but that doesn't mean better arrangements aren't possible. Revenue shares/royalties definitely seem like a good way to go for more small level companies that can't pay more than $0.20�$0.30 a word. But just like in bigger news industries, etc., the larger issue is that there are so many people willing to work for less, bringing down the valuation of everyone's labor. The only way I know that that's been combatted historically is through the organization of labor, but I don't know what the hell a successful attempt at that would look like in this field and would probably require a broader scope, like a freelancers [in general] union. With a "hobby industry" like TG, that drive to "just be included" regardless of lack of fair pay is so strong, so I'm sure no matter what is tried, there will be scabs aplenty.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2019 17:55

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 19:52

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Tulul posted:

I was interested to see there was a post for "Dungeon and Dragons Magazine" here, because WotC can certainly afford to pay a decent rate and it'd be nice to know how much they actually pay people.

Yeah, can't find contemporary rates. Looks like 5 years ago they only paid $0.06/word for submissions: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/submissions

# ¿ Sep 29, 2019 19:49

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Liquid Communism posted:

Nothing obligates someone to keep doing business with a lovely company just because the union wants them to.

I think it's acceptable for creators to want to support the union and keep using the platform, while it is -also- acceptable for consumers to go 'you know, I don't want anything to do with those assholes'.

What makes it a thornier issue is that, if there's something you would otherwise back if Kickstarter weren't anti-union assholes, then only 5% of withholding your pledge hurts Kickstarter, and about 90% of withholding your pledge hurts the creators.

Not to say there's no moral justification for withholding your pledge. Just that it disproportionately hits the creators you would otherwise want to support.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2019 00:04

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

theironjef posted:

That's where I'm at. I was just about to launch one to defray some costs of manufacture for some soft enamel pins, just stuff from my podcast. But though the union folks aren't specifically calling for a boycott now, I don't want to get caught up in it in two weeks or whatever. It would have been my first KS project and that's not what I want on the track record.

The unionizing workers' pinned tweet still advises creators to not cancel current or planned projects. So if you wanna go by what they request, it's fairly clear so far.

https://twitter.com/ksr_united/status/1172511951282483200

# ¿ Sep 30, 2019 04:59

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

taichara posted:

And it's embarrassing as hell that a game with blatantly stolen copyrighted art for the cover managed to do that. But then I've pointed out the cover's issue a few times to people (it's me, a Gundam 00 fan, spotted that thing a mile away) and gotten crickets; they don't want to hear it, I guess.

I wonder if WotC noticed the cover as well as the award. I guess not, if they got hired.

Art theft still seems to be a massive issue in this industry that's often driven by "hobbyists." Even the DMs Guild has no oversight whatsoever on the sale of books with art the author has absolutely no copyright or license to, and relies on artists finding their work stolen in published books and pursuing each instance themselves to take any action. (I'm amazed that WotC's lawyers haven't shut that down as a massive liability. Just a simple prescreening to see if there's any obvious art licensing violations would prevent a lot of it.) There's also still a cottage industry of "artists" just stealing others' work, adding a few photoshop filters or recolors, and blatantly lying to writers that they have the license to sell it.

I've called out multiple authors who invariably spout some mix of "I think the issue is more nuanced than that" and "Hm, you bring up some good points. I'll have to think about this more when I have the time," and then continue to publish art that isn't theirs.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2019 17:17

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Froghammer posted:

Congratulations! We've found the dumbest possible take

It's the same ol' horseshoe theory BS, pretending that centrism is some kind of enlightened, proper philosophy (the terms of which are entirely defined by whoever is claiming it at the time). The argument just has to be converted and squeezed into increasingly stupid and outrageous molds to try to remain relevant as fewer and fewer people accept its legitimacy. It is funny, though, that an edgelord-type like him would claim any extreme is bad and that, in fact, proper discourse is centered, neutral, and inoffensive to his delicate sensibilities. [edit: But I guess he's really more just about saying whatever the hell opposes what he sees progressives claiming or doing.]

# ¿ Jun 13, 2021 20:57

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Arivia posted:

Nah it�s not a centrism thing. He argues further down in that chain that anti-racism is actually racism against white people. He�s just being an idiot edgy shitlord as always.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

He's an edgy piece of trash to cover for how desperate he is for validation.

Well, the joke's on me, I guess, for assuming a reactionary might use just enough good faith to actually present an argument they believe first. Instead, it's just what they usually do: pretending to have BS centrists views as just a cover or introduction for their honest, even more horrendous beliefs.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2021 21:58

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Kai Tave posted:

I've been accused of being overly cynical before for suggesting that you could sell a deliberately half-assed game as long as the pictures are pretty enough,

Isn't this just the straight business model of so, so many boardgame Kickstarters with minis? I mean, the smaller and more independent creators probably believe their own hype a lot more, but it is rare for there to be an even halfway decent game under all that plastic.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2021 15:56

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Tsilkani posted:

I think it's a bit of a different situation when it comes to minis, because there are lots of people who are just looking for cool sculpts to use for some other game , or just to paint and display. For them, the minis are the product, and any rules attached are a surprise bonus at best and irrelevant at worst.

What makes buying a poo poo game for the minis that you like painting and playing with different from buying a poo poo videogame for the aesthetic dress-em-up accessories you can use to make your character or their base or whatever look how you like?

Also, you're basically repeating the cynical position Games Workshop is being criticized for and saying that's justification. If you accept your games are not gonna be great and are just excuses to sell minis... why not stop making games and just focus on selling minis?

# ¿ Jul 27, 2021 16:06

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Lumbermouth posted:

Isn�t this the third SCP RPG that�s been kickstarted in the past year?

This one seems to be a new edition of the one that was released... 5 months ago?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zombiemouse/scp-the-tabletop-role-playing-game/posts

# ¿ Oct 31, 2021 19:40

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Mighty M�rkin' Borgin' Strangers

# ¿ Jan 31, 2022 16:47

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Last I saw Paizo paid well for the tabletop industry (7 cents a word, thereabouts?) but that's absolutely damning with faint praise.

This is not a good rate for the industry. A large chunk of indie publishers pay a minimum of $0.10 a word, many pay more, with a few paying even $0.20-25 a word.

A lot of freelancers were sharing their rates in discord servers last year as part of short-lived attempts to form a TTRPG freelancers union. The main takeaway was that the big, monied publishers in the scene are by far the biggest offenders when it comes to drastically underpaying. Indie folks are paying so, so much more.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2022 19:56

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

I think they're contracted through 2023. Though it would be nice if they at least threatened to move elsewhere once that's over with.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2022 22:34

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

This info is like two clicks away, people.

For entering the U.S. in an airplane, barring your airline adding any extra restrictions: Citizens don't require any vaccine or proof of negative test. Non-citizens and non-U.S. immigrants require proof of vaccination (with a few exceptions) or proof of negative test if you are exempt from the vaccination requirement. Masks aren't required for anyone. No restrictions on domestic air travel.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2022 15:50

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Splicer posted:

Are there any RPGs that do the whole "this stuff is beyond your comprehension and weird stuff is going to happen and it will gently caress you up in unimaginable ways" thing well? WFRP3E's corruption is the only one I've experience with that approaches it but i mean like weird weird, like roadside picnic the original novel: The RPG

Trophy Dark, if you like one shots. It's understood that the characters are likely doomed from the start, so there's lots of room for weirdness.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2022 13:57

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Halloween Jack posted:

In Trophy Dark you're definitely doomed, in Trophy Gold you're doomed if you don't retire.

Haven't played Gold yet, but I got the impression that, since it's aiming for campaign play, there aren't as many weird moments happening that change you. Debt is your doom, basically.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2022 14:08

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Blind Azathoth posted:

I met a lot of nice folks through the Gauntlet, like Rich Rogers and Lowell Francis, but the big problem with the community is Cordova himself. He's a petty rear end in a top hat who likes to poo poo-talk other designers in private, occasionally pick fights with them for no reason in public, and kick hornet's nests to be "provocative," "a devil's advocate," and "get the Gauntlet name out there," as best I can remember his exact words. And yeah, he's big into OSR edgelord bullshit. He had numerous episodes talking about how much he loved Zak S modules back in the day, and on the Gauntlet Slack he privately called ZS a "genius" and said he was the best writer in TTRPGs. Most or all of that was scrubbed after ZS was outed as a rapist. Almost everything positive about Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Carcosa or whatever goes back to Cordova.

He also blew the whole community up a few years ago when he kicked out a co-organizer over a minor Twitter disagreement, then lied to the community that it was a mutual decision, lied that he was taking a step back, used the official Gauntlet blog and twitter to harass her, lied that he was completely giving up control of the Gauntlet, revealed he had inoperable brain cancer to try to get sympathy when he got called on his poo poo (it seems he got better), etc. Most of the old guard Gauntlet members left and got replaced by people who don't know he's a dick, from what I could see before I too left. It's a much less active community, and one with a lot fewer designers, but I doubt he cares with the success his own publishing has brought him.

Thanks for giving a succinct summary. I had heard mentions of Cordova being an rear end, but never really knew what he did. I don't listen to the podcast or read the blog, so I didn't know he liked Zak S so much either. I've mostly used the Gauntlet as a funnel for Trophy content and occasional design forum stuff and finding players on the Slack.

Wish Jesse Ross didn't hitch the Trophy wagon to him.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2022 17:26

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

CitizenKeen posted:

Yeah, I've seen some RPG-specific ones before in the last thirty years, I just can't find any now and I'd love to find a good one to use as an example for something. The whole "is it player character or Player Character", etc.

I edit RPGs and boardgames for a living, and every publisher has their own style (or a lack thereof). It really is usually a "per product line" decision, tailored to the game, tone, target demographic, mechanical complexity, etc. I haven't seen a good general style guide for RPGs anywhere (though I've only been at it for a few years), but this general one for boardgames by Mike Lee is good: https://docs.google.com/document/d/101P3El5zUTnmv_FwDW-X176CTIl8p5MLMKkAE-LwVUQ/edit

WotC has a short one for 5e DnD that's not bad, if that's the style you're wanting to write for: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/267467/DMs-Guild-Creator-Resource--Style-Guide-Resources

I default to the Chicago Manual of Style, which is what WotC's style guides are based on, and it's what I used to write a style guide for a client's RPG line (based heavily on 5e's). I think it's a good balance for texts that are somewhere between technical and artistic.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2023 23:48

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

CitizenKeen posted:

Sorry, I'm not looking for a general one. Specific ones, even to small RPGs, is fine. 5th Edition D&D is perfect. Thank you!

Oh, well then there are, like, at least 7 more game-specific style guides free on DTRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=%22style+guide%22&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

# ¿ Jan 27, 2023 01:10

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Yeah, I just started playing through DOS 2, and to craft the skillbook for the "Favorable Wind" skill, you need to use a pair of panties. This is their sense of humor, and it's easily one of the worst things about their games.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2023 05:43

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

In industry news: No more A Thousand Thousand Islands.

Zedeck: https://cohost.org/zedecksiew/post/1977950-statement-regarding
Mun Kao: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/centaurgames/reach-of-the-roach-god-part-of-a-thousand-thousand-islands/posts/3844724

# ¿ Jul 11, 2023 05:46

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

It's not clear that there will be no more ATTI. It's clear that that's what Zedeck wants, but he doesn't seem to have the power to actually make that happen.

That's fair. But Mun Kao's framed the current situation as the outcome of trying to negotiate the right to use the name/project and also made a point to affirm that Zedeck might own the name, making it sound like they don't think they have the right to use it without Zedeck's permission. Who knows?

# ¿ Jul 11, 2023 06:14

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Artist's thread confirming they used AI to... apparently finish sketches for them?

https://twitter.com/i_shkipin/status/1687690944899092480
Even if you're a legit artist interested in what AI tools could do to cut corners and save time, why would you do this for a contract where your art would be so widely distributed as a WotC book? Such a weird decision.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2023 14:25

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Return to Perinthos, the megadungeon book being put together as a memorial for industry icon Jennell Jaquays, is now raising funds to print. It will contain ~200 pages with over 80 brand-new maps and keys from dozens of contributors (full disclosure: including myself) for a wide array of systems. All profits will go to her family and the charity Trans Lifeline.

https://crowdfundr.com/perinthos

JMBosch fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Feb 13, 2024

# ¿ Feb 13, 2024 01:12

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 19:52

JMBosch: May 28, 2006; You're dead.
That's your greatest weapon.

Yeah I think the industry relevant part is that he was manipulating her by lying to her networking contacts and potential collaborators so that she looked like an overeager hanger-on, leading those people to then "warn" others about her, when she was a victim of his lies the whole time.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2024 23:08

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