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man nurse posted:I do think it's funny that they blew their wad and were like "Well, Sephiroth has to be the final boss, right?" Like has already been said, the actual Sephiroth Cloud fights beats him. Pretty much all they have to say next game is "you might have thought we fought Sephiroth but that's nothing compared to the real deal" during the Kalm flashback and we're good to go. I think I'll write an effort post about this game. There's definitely some sloppiness in the ending but drat it's good.
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Apr 19, 2020 22:37
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Tifa isn't actually very codependent with Cloud. She makes her decisions, the trusts herself to fight when she chooses to and doesn't have an obsessive need for Cloud's approval. Nor does she take responsibility for his actions or anything like that. Tifa is traumatised by an event in her past that her mind doesn't want to get close to, like how my hand doesn't want to go near a hot stove and for much the same reason - even being close to something that hurts that much is uncomfortable. And then, when Cloud does open up about it, here's the thing - he does know details that could only be known by someone who was there. So it's not that she knows he's wrong, even, but she's uncertain about what's going on and that, coupled with her trauma, makes her want to stay away from it. When she reaches the crux of things in the lifestream and she does decide to discuss it with him, that's why she's able to readily accept the explanation for why he was there - it aligned the pieces in her brain and made her feel less alone in her trauma, which helps her confront it herself. Whether them getting together after that is positive or not. I think it is, but only because at that point they have both self actualised, so when they come together, beneath the benevolent gaze of the entire rest of the party and the Highwind, it's not as people who need each other to be complete, it's as people who want to express their love and live as more honest reflections of themselves. Onmi posted:Most of the people I know who never played the original are left asking the same questions someone who played the original and just finished Midgar would ask if they weren't spoiled. "What's up with Sephiroth, oh wow I didn't think the story would involve all this, I thought it was just about Shinra and this one city." This is amazing and is, I think, exactly what they wanted to capture for new and old players alike. Someone in the thread (I think it was this one) said that they should have had the ending be more of a dungeon with characters actually deciding do they want to defy fate and discussing what that means. I think that's exactly right, and they should have cut Hojo's fun time dungeon for it and gone with party is captured, wakes up to follow an ominous trail and finds ShinRa dead. You can still have the Jenova battle - just have Sephiroth appear after the feeling of shock has had time to settle on the player. Gotta effort post about the difference between Jenova's messing with Cloud throughout the game and what I take to be there real Sephiroth at the edge of creation sometime and what I think they're going for.
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Apr 20, 2020 09:59
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Schwartzcough posted:See, in all this discussion of "will Aerith die/won't she", I think people miss an underlying plot hole/problem that has been raised by the whole "time travel/future awareness thing." In the original game, Aerith explicitly succeeds in summoning Holy but Sephiroth, sitting in the Northern Crater, holds it back. And when it comes out, it seems to help meteor instead of stopping it. But here's the thing, even without Meteor, there was a chance Holy would wipe out humanity. So it's not clear that's due to his influence. The planet could survive meteor after all - that was key to Sephiroth's plan after all. So Aerith calls on the lifestream to save it all. How? By talking to the planet. But she didn't need to die to do that, that's literally what her special power is. Nothing about her death is necessary, it's just what happened.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:24
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Schwartzcough posted:I think the widely accepted interpretation is that Holy finally got released when Sephiroth was defeated, and it TRIED to stop Meteor, but it was too late to do it safely where it didn't put the planet/life on the planet at risk. The Lifestream then erupted to help Holy push Meteor away where it could explode safely. And it's heavily implied that Aerith being in the lifestream was instrumental in having the lifestream come out to help save the day, based on the final shot of a praying, smiling Aerith illuminated in lifestream glow. Aerith helps the team from beyond the grave metaphorically and literally - she motivates them to go on and communicates with the planet on their behalf. Which she did anyway. It's less tragic maybe, but she didn't need to die and I didn't see anything that indicated she gained more power by dying.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:52
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Schwartzcough posted:They can't have the giant Cait Sith moogle. How would he slowly squeeze through tiny spaces or inch along narrow ledges? Hopefully by the ps5 they won't need to take so long to load stuff in! Or they just constantly cast mini on him. Schwartzcough posted:Aerith in the original could barely communicate with the spirits of the ancients standing right in front of her, and could only get vague feelings and half-understood communication from the planet. I don't think a living Aerith could literally summon a giant pillar of lifestream out of the planet. Ah, I think I understand where our interpretations differ, then. I don't think Aerith literally summoned a pillar of lifestream to do that, the impression I always got is that she asked the planet to give humanity another chance and stop both Holy and Meteor. Her ability to talk to the planet and its spirits was growing since she got out of Midgar, seemingly culminating in her becoming attuned enough to actually use her white materia. To me this makes more thematic sense than she needed to die for that to be possible. That she continues to help the party with motivation and a literally request on their behalf, but there's still an Aerith shaped hole there because she could have done that while alive, because death is not something that happens because it needs to, it's just something that comes. Edit: Flopsy posted:They've done quite a bit of humanizing with some of the villainous characters in this game. I'm curious to see how it plays out and whether we get any specifics over whether Sephiroth still thinks he's an ancient or is aware Jenova is space Nyarlathotep. Also this might be wishful thinking on my part but I hope Hojo plays a bigger role as a villain because really, I think we can all unanimously agree everything is this fuckers fault and it would be immensely satisfying to have some proper build up to kicking his poo poo in. Maybe have Sephiroth/Vincent finish him off I dunno. In the original, your fight with Diamond Weapon is interrupted by a Mako laser that gets coopted by Hojo and you have to parachute into Midgar to climb up and kick his Jenova infected rear end. Gimme something that over the top and I'll be good. Cavelcade fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Apr 24, 2020 |
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Apr 24, 2020 07:05
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Necrothatcher posted:I still can't work out why Barret would decide to step through a mysterious portal and potentially never see Marlene ever again. It's clear that someone else realised this as they give him a small scene where he promises he'll be back, but how could he possibly know that? But I guess they've already finished rendering the final cutscenes so he's going through that portal regardless of what makes sense. Barret goes through the portal in large part for the same reason he's leaving Midgar - in fact because he has to leave Midgar. Shin-Ra have dropped a plate to kill him already and he almost lost Marlene and did lose, as far he knows, Jessie and Biggs. Shin-Ra will keep coming and now he knows there's nothing they won't do, the best way to protect his daughter is to not show up again until they're taken down. The Whispers are stopping him leaving Midgar, so he steps through the portal to take them on. What confuses me a bit about people's reactions is that the ending is so obviously opposed to Advent Children. When Sephiroth cuts up the building to throw at Cloud, someone else comes in and interrupts, saying this is stupid. For me, it was Aerith saying literally "Screw this!" - that's them clearly saying, to us, that they get what was bad about AC and they won't repeat the same mistakes. At the very last fight then, I wasn't worried about Sephiroth dying but I was concerned about what would happen to Cloud. That Sephiroth, the real one, is still so far above him that he can't touch him. One thing I miss from the original was Cloud giving tutorials. In one of them he explains to a girl in the Beginner's Hall that limits are literal powers in universe, the unleashing of all that pent up pain and anger. I thought that was fun, as well as cementing him as a badass who could teach these punks some lessons if they wanna jam.
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Apr 25, 2020 13:09
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Harrow posted:Marlene's an Ancient. I think there were some theories about that in the original based on hints I never picked up on but this remake provides a ton of evidence, especially like how she can feel Barret calling out for her in the ending. Is there a theory like that about Marlene? I...guess I could see where they're coming for with her mom and that scene at the end. That seems like a stretch, though. I'm trying to think how that would work thematically even. I guess it would be funny? Tifa not reacting at the end was weird. Maybe we'll get that at the start.
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Apr 25, 2020 21:07
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Oxxidation posted:tifa saw cloud unmasked after her failed attack on sephiroth, but she'd also been nearly bisected then She sees it but she doesn't remember it - or if she does, it's only asba fever dream. She's surprised by the revelation that he's the grunt who took real good care of her. cheetah7071 posted:It made sense in the original because Tifa never emotes. She's seriously a complete blank slate in the original script; my replay is up to Cosmo Canyon and I couldn't tell you the first thing about her Try talking to her.
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Apr 25, 2020 21:40
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Flopsy posted:This gets complicated by that moment at the edge of creation where he's begging Cloud for help and winces as if in pain when rejected. We've talked about how in the Japanese script this is the only time he speaks the way he used to before he lost his mind. Its an...very odd thing to consider. Also his plans have blatantly changed since OG FF7. In the OG game he merely saw Cloud as means to an end and considered him little more than a puppet. Now he's obsessed with him to point he doesn't even want him to die. I couldn't tell you WHAT he wants with Cloud specifically but it's clear he wants him for something beyond being a black materia delivery unit. In the OG FF7 Sephiroth absolutely cared about Cloud specifically. This is why he has Cloud bring him the black materia and why he tries to get him to kill Aerith - he wants to break him because Cloud defeated him in Nibelheim. This is also the strongest reason to think Sephiroth is in charge in game - Jenova has no reason to care about Cloud, only Sephiroth does. In this game? Who knows! It's great!
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Apr 26, 2020 00:34
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Yeah, I just assumed Reno knows all the 1st Class soldiers because they're all crazy strong. But then in the original one, when you do meet them, they're pretty faceless and not a huge threat by that stage. Of course that's before you go to fight King Soldier in his cave, so maybe that's not a fair comparison. I wonder how much of their extra powered reputation comes from Sephiroth?
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Apr 26, 2020 12:23
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Dreylad posted:The remake does a good job of not just throwing the whole SOLIDER thing out the window like the first game since it only throws 3rd class soldier enemies at you. So there's room in the next few games for stronger versions to escalate as you get higher level. Also the third class soldier you do see is much stronger than the other guys you're fighting around that point, even if he's not actually much better than, say, Reno. It's a really good set piece for how strong Cloud is, in fact.
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Apr 26, 2020 14:55
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BaDandy posted:hojo: *takes a selfie with a catatonic Cloud while injecting him with horrible little alien cells* It's only science if it's properly recorded. Plus the cam tips are insaaaaaaaaane.
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Apr 26, 2020 16:54
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stev posted:I really enjoyed the ending but after sleeping on it they really blew their load there. One Winged Angel is the climactic moment of the entire story. Unless they plan on killing Sephiroth and having Aerith be the villain (which we all know would be amazing), the finale of this series won't be nearly as impactful now that we've had that moment already. It's not even like Sephiroth clowned the party the first time round - they easily beat him, he just got away for reasons. I'm definitely curious but not quite worried about where they go with that. On the one hand they beat a version of Sephiroth already. On the other hand, the real Sephiroth shrugged off Omnislash. The Kalm flashback can set up that what they fought wasn't anything like the real thing and hopefully give Tifa a chance to properly respond to the events of the first game. Edit: they couldn't do the flashback there. It takes so long the original game gives you a chance to save the game, and they don't even really know Sephiroth is active by that stage.
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Apr 27, 2020 09:02
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:The WEAPON fights have to be some Shadow of the Colossus type-deal right Ultima will be the same, where you have a fight. Diamond will be you struggling to stop him and then he gets blasted by the sister Ray Emerald weapon will be the darts minigame with harpoons, where you have to hit the eyes in order. Ruby will be a dance off, Andrea will judge the winner.
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Apr 27, 2020 10:41
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SyntheticPolygon posted:There will be another Sephiroth fight in part 2 but it will quickly become apparent it's only Zack and Cloud's just hallucinating really hard. Nah it'll play The Price of Freedom. And Cloud will talk about how high the price of Mako is.
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Apr 27, 2020 14:53
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Aerith's death is senseless in that it's not a necessary sacrifice for her to summon Holy or commune with the planet. She had always planned on coming back and Sephiroth killing her loving sucks. The end of the original game is clearly meant to be ambiguous and come down to how optimistic you are. If you believe humanity can learn from mistakes and change, overgrown Midgar is a sign of how damage can be healed and we can move on with those scars. If you're a pessimist, it's a monument to a failed species, unable to rise above their indifference to the planet. It's a game about environmentalism, either we rise or we die. The end of this game is that we killed Advent Children and it rules.
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Apr 28, 2020 09:06
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Ainsley McTree posted:Is there anything in the original FFVII that establishes what happens to Zack after the Nibelheim reactor fight? I beat the game recently and I don't remember ever seeing or hearing anything about it; the last time you see him is lying on the ground in the reactor, so I'd always assumed he died there. If you go back to the Nibelheim basement and look at the tubes, there's a flashback showing them breaking out and going to Midgar, where Zack gets shot by three chumps. Then there's other EU stuff, and the end of Remake clearly references Crisis Core.
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Apr 28, 2020 13:31
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TheLoquid posted:I would guess that Wutai will get a significantly expanded role in future installments. It would probably be smart for them to roll at least one main story branch into Wutai to connect with the foreshadowing in Part 1. I'm hoping that's all propaganda and there really is no strong Wutai out there, all the financial backing is just Shinra making sure he controls the opposition - or his son, trying to kill him, who abandons the propaganda in favour of ruling through fear of being put in a room with Hojo. ETA: you could maybe stop after Temple of the Ancients? Add a Jenova boss and boom, climax to part two. Part three is going after Aerith and then... Cavelcade fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 23:05
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Flopsy posted:Aerith telling Sephiroth to get hosed is hands down the highlight of the remake. On the one hand yes on the other hand 
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Apr 29, 2020 23:52
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He wanted Cloud to get the Black Materia and give it to him because he wanted to gently caress with Cloud specifically. Sure he could've had a clone do it but none of them shanked him.Gologle posted:Based on my playthroughs of the original game, Cloud and co. would have survived just fine without Barret actually tbh imo Without his gunarm they never would've been thrown into prison so they never would've got the buggy so they never would've crossed the river and would still be grinding outside Corel while Sephiroth loses it up north.
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Apr 30, 2020 00:29
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BaDandy posted:You know. She doesn't need to die to cast holy! She successfully finishes casting it before she gets turned into another spicy memory for Cloud. Sephiroth is just sitting there, holding it back from stopping his plans. If she survived she would have known that and probably just said "well drat, we better go kick his rear end then".
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Apr 30, 2020 15:18
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" knowing that they both know what's going on.
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Yes, a large thematic purpose of her death is that it, like most deaths, has no purpose and is not necessary for anything that happens after. That people find motivation and her spirit can still touch the characters is also important but she didn't need to die to do any of what she achieved.
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Apr 30, 2020 18:02
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DeathChicken posted:Yet we've seen how that story plays out already, so I'm more interested in the one where Aerith shakes Tifa by the shoulders and goes "Stop this denial thing you have going before your boyfriend helps drop a meteor on the planet" I mean I'm more interested in one where she shakes Tifa by the shoulders and then they make out but yeah, yours could work too.
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Apr 30, 2020 18:29
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zedprime posted:It's a consistent plot but mixed theming. As far as it's presented we need to blast the barrier with soul juice. No other options, we're out of time, you already stop meteor in spitting distance of Midgar. Actually the og crew have no time to see if they could figure out another way into the crater, the capitalists made the decision for everyone. And doing so drew the attention of Diamond Weapon, resulting in hundreds of deaths. And even after that, the party has to stop what they're doing and go into Midgar itself to stop Hojo just feeding the planet's life directly to the monster ShinRa had created. Like yeah it's not as simple as "tech bad", that's the point of Cosmo Canyon. It's about realising we shouldn't use that tech to exploit the planet but rather protect and nurture it. That's what Cid is telling us when we go to space. ETA: this is why the Cosmo Canyon theme has a  electric guitar part to it, as a supporting instrument to the cool tribal part to it and why every version isn't as good.
Cavelcade fucked around with this message at 21:57 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 21:47
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Flopsy posted:"You don't know when to give high fives do you Cloud?" He learns!!! He knows to do it after hell house all by himself!
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May 2, 2020 18:18
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I've been playing through on hard mode and one thing I noticed is another hint that Wutai are not the threat they're being presented as. Just before the Avalanche cells funded by "Wutai" go on an all out assault on the Shin-Ra building, Tseng gets a call from Rufus, who we know is actually funding them. I think that he was going to make his move that night anyway, which worked out for our heroes and will be revealed next game is my guess.
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May 4, 2020 23:30
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So here's a question for the thread I still don't have an answer for myself after playing through a second time. Why is President ShinRa hanging off a ledge at the end? Who knocked him out the window but didn't kill him and why?
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May 6, 2020 03:05
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Dell_Zincht posted:It's easily missable but if you look to the side of his desk there's a big hole in the window, chances are when Sephiroth initially attacked Shinra HQ he was blown through the window and over the ledge. Like, I saw that but looks the next guy says, how long was he hanging there? Why was he knocked off the ledge and left to hang? The whole sequence would have been improved by him just being dead I think.
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May 6, 2020 03:31
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Calling both Tifa and Aerith manic pixie dream girls is just  One measure of a good set of characters is each having a goal that the audience understands by the end of this part of the story. Which we do, I think, even if we don't fully understand the motivations behind them yet. Cloud was to hunt Sephiroth Barret wants to protect the planet Red wants to leave Midgar/tear out Hojo's throat Tifa wants to use her strength to protect the new group she's found Aerith wants to stop Sephiroth and get away from ShinRa. Like, I don't fully know the motivation behind each of these yet but I have a clear understanding of each character as a fleshed out person. One thing I noticed during my hard mode play through is that Tifa does react to Sephiroth in front of Jenova, by drawing away in fear. But she quickly hides that reaction, which I think is in line with where she is now. gently caress, I want more of this remake.
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May 7, 2020 11:06
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BaDandy posted:So, after the NIbelheim flashback, Cloud ends it on a cliffhanger because he doesn't remember how it panned out and insists that he couldn't possibly have killed Sephiroth. What he actually said in the og is that he couldn't have taken him in a fair fight, doesn't remember how he did but is implied to have thought he'd won until the end of Midgar. Obviously the remake changes the order around a bit but still
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May 7, 2020 16:43
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cock hero flux posted:doesn't he literally say "I couldn't have killed him" after the kalm flashback though? Oh you're totally right, he's actually surprised that Cloud lives. My bad. He wants to find out what really happened. Interesting!
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May 7, 2020 16:48
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Beefstew posted:I can see how it could be read that way, but I'm not convinced. She does that by asking the lifestream to intercede - which, as a Cetra, she can do while alive.
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May 8, 2020 02:05
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RareAcumen posted:2) Was hoping that Cloud's swords would be played up as very heavy and something you can't just casually carry around but nah, Leslie can casually 1-hand it. Nbd. It was in a bag of holding at the time.
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May 8, 2020 11:14
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:And yet it's a two-person job to lift a dresser out to clear a path The dresser had gravity cast on it. Anytime you see something like that, Bugenhagen did it.
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May 8, 2020 19:24
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cheetah7071 posted:My assumption is that the things that look kinda like animals are mostly natural with some mako poisoning. poo poo like Hell House and the triceratops tank crawled out of a mako waste dump quote:Don Corneo's secret weapon, a monster in the form of a house. No one knows how it was built. No Mako needed...or all Mako all the time?
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May 8, 2020 21:28
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RatHat posted:I don’t remember this at all. It's the tower you climb to get Yuffie's final limit. It's good.
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May 8, 2020 22:38
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gredgie posted:https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1259852899384991744 And then you kill it and it rules.
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May 11, 2020 15:59
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Beefstew posted:Aeris' death is actually mitigated by her spirituality. Even as a child she was in touch with life and communicating with the dead. It's effective at demoralizing and traumatizing the party because she was such as source of positivity, but in FF7's world, a mystical pseudo-existence beyond death is an indisputable fact. And Aeris seems to be able to maintain her ego more because she's an Ancient. It would've been more tragic for literally anyone else to die. It's meaningless in that it accomplished nothing that couldn't have been accomplished with her alive but does strip her of a future where she can find love and friendship with those outside the lifestream and continue to grow and mature. Thematically, it doesn't represent the end of her character arc - that gets cut short too, before we can see her achieve things beyond summoning Holy. We don't see what she's going to do with Cloud, or develop into the leader of the party. We also get to see how the party devolves without her, almost to the point of a complete breakdown if Tifa hadn't helped Cloud piece his true self back together. There's a lot left unfinished for her that is left that way for no positive outcome, which is what people mean by meaningless. Tifa wouldn't have worked because the only comparable moment for her would be after Mideel and that would have a whole bunch of grossness attached to her getting shelved after saving the leading man that isn't there for Aerith, it would be a completely different dynamic. It feels like you're taking "meaningless" to mean "thematically meaningless" at times, which is not what people are arguing. People are arguing that meaninglessness of death is the theme and if you disagree with that reading of it focus on why you disagree with that, instead of trying to pin down a definition of the word meaningless which is a fruitless endeavor. Anyway, all of that makes her decision at the end of the remake even more exciting for me. I really want her to live, I want to see what her plans after the city were.
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May 20, 2020 11:50
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Cerebral Bore posted:Or we have the far simpler explanation that the plot ghosts simply can't stop Sephiroth and as such are reduced to working around whatever mess he makes. I see this as a better theory because it doesn't rely on arbitrarily having to distinguish between Sephiroth and Sephiroth or the idea that the literal arbiters of fate that have a perfect knowledge of how things need to happen in the past, present and future are somehow selectively blind to literally the biggest threat to the timeline ever. The Whispers don't have a perfect knowledge of events, they have a rough outline they're working towards. That's why you see them checking in on people at times, they're not sure what's going on when they're not watching and they want to figure that out. I really think the name is bad. They should have called them weapons of fate or something. The planet has a vision of how it wants things to unfold and they're trying to get people to follow that.
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May 21, 2020 00:34
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Ah yes, the villain of the piece without a lisp, Sephiros. I don't think the Cetra used Mako, Mako is refined lifestream. I think they used the upswells of lifestream that naturally occurred, probably without using it up as if the case with the reactors. Otherwise it'd be weird for them to considered in touch with the planets.
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May 21, 2020 22:26
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