THE VEGAN MEGATHREAD

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Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

baw posted:

anyone know any good vegan blood substitutes, i miss chugging bottles of fresh blood

Explore beet powder, its whay I use in my 'black pudding'

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 17:47

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 20:02

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Ive been eating a primarily.plant based diet for like a decade but I agree with the guy saying thay we should also eat bugs and shellfish

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 17:51

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

However i did not at all follow the poo poo about herring and natural environments or whatever, aninal agriculture as currently practice in the overwhelming majoritu of cases is deleterious fir the environment, the workwrs and the communities where the production takes place

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 17:52

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

That insects feel 'pain' is debateable but even so i personally believe thay eatinf insects for protein is going to become a necessary evil within fifty years

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 17:55

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Sarah Taber, who is a hack, once blocked me for mocking her for saying that veganism is privilaged because indiginous people who live in marginal mountain environments without arable land historically use goat/sheep ag to survive so by extension it was imperialist to question industrial animal agriculture lmao

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 18:27

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Bot 02 posted:

Also I don't get this obsession meat-eaters have with wanting to eat insects. There are no problems with getting protein on a plant-based diet, it's a myth that you have to eat animals to get proteins.

actrually a lot of people at the UN (and elsewhere) who study food systems and advocate for primarily plant based diets believe that climate change is very likely to mean that insect ag as a source of protein is going to be neccesary before the end of the century

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 18:28

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

also lmfao if you include 'how vegans act' in your decision making calculus re: ethical eating. the argument 'vegans are annoying/have attacked me so I reject the argument that a plant based diet is more ethical' is something that a child would think haha

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 18:31

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

'AH HA, so you say its unethical not to be vegan but THAT means you are judging the Masai! Checkmate.' *continues eating chemical industrial animal agriculture products in the United States of America*

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 18:32

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Hell Is Other Vegans but that doesn;t make veganism wrong

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 18:33

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

gay_crimes posted:

lmao at people that buy their food from the grocery store cooking up hypothetical scenarios that they will never be in to justify factory farming

it owns

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 22:52

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Crane Fist posted:

I think it's bad to kill animals so I'm as vegetarian as I can be while being poor as poo poo. I'll never be vegan though because vegan food is mad expensive and lentils are the devil's work

legumes grains and vegetables are famously considerably more expensive than things like meat, cheese, fish etc

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 22:55

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Bot 02 posted:

Is this a regional thing? Where I'm from, all the vegan staples (grains, vegetables, legumes) are all cheap as poo poo.

in almost every case its just nonsense predicated on pretending that in order to eat a vegan diet you are obligated to buy expensive specialty processed goods

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 22:57

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

there is like two thousand years of history of veganism in asia

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 23:13

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

the idea that 'actually until 1955 everyone had to eat meat to survive' is so hilariously ahistorical i dont even know how to begin adressing it

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 23:13

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

endlessmonotony posted:

Well, no, there isn't. There's two thousand years of history of vegetarianism.

You didn't have to eat meat. I said that. You needed to get your b12 from somewhere, and the sources that aren't animal byproducts are extremely regional, and we had no idea what they were until 1955.

The cure used to be liver. Turns out cheese also works. Now we can just brew it.

luckily as has repeatedly b een pointed out in this thread the most common definition of veganism is avoiding the consumption of animal products and minimizing harm to animals to the greatest practicable extent

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 23:35

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

discussing veganism is always such an excelent example of people making the 'AH HA you arent following your own beliefs exactly to the letter in every single case! owned!' which is only a valid argument if you accept that in fact those beliefs are worth practicing exactly to the letter in every case. if your point is people fail to live up to their own ideals, well, yeah, no poo poo

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 23:36

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

endlessmonotony posted:

My point is that animals will die no matter what we do as a result of humanity's actions. There is no more land to expand to.

We could choose now which animals we prioritize and why. Or we can just keep arguing about absolute lines built on hard moral stances instead of practical impact and do absolutely nothing to slow down capitalism doing what it does.

We're going to do the latter anyway. I know.

its bad point though, there is arable land not currently under production and it would not take more land under production to replace animal agriculture. im specifically saying that your hard line moral stance thing is a canard because people in this thread have repeatedly said that the idea is to minimize animal consumption and harm to the greatest extent practicable, not to mention the fact that any of our individual consumption behavior has no systemic effect whatsoever. me personally eating a plant based diet has not in anyway prevented me from organizing to 'slow down capitalism' and was actually an outgrowth of that work that has further embedded left practice and theory into my daily life.

what do you mean 'what animals we prioritize'?

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 23:57

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

baw posted:

so youre telling me caveman poop is vegan

only if the caveman consents

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 00:01

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

endlessmonotony posted:

We're facing the biggest loss of arable land, ever, starting ten years ago.

oh, ok i see what you mean then. can you explain how you believe animal agriculture reduces the amount of land required for ag production? are you talking strictly about bugs and fish or something?

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 00:02

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

also for the record its chill if your life makes it impossible or even prohibitively difficult for you to eat a primarily plant based diet, who cares imo. doesn't invalidate the case for massively shifting the global food system in that direction (arguably strengthens it unless you have like ehlers danloss or something)

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 00:05

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

ok, yeah i actually basically agree then although im not following the stuff about grass, ruminants for food productions are not meaningfully maintaining prairie systems currently? or do you just mean that there is otherwise unarable land that could have ruminants on it?

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 00:08

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

i dont at all see how the vegan movement is meaningfully at cross purposes with a wholesale transition to invertebrate/pescatarian consumption unless you want to pretend that all vegans are absolutely hard lined (despite the fact that we keep saying we aren't)

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 00:09

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

personally, i believe it is immoral to benefit from violent exploitation (such as child labor or slavery, imperialist wars of aggfression etc.) yet being an american citizen it is effectively impossible for me to not do that. to my mind that does not invalidate the moral argument.

in your case, it should be obviously insane to all but the most deluded antidominionists that it is not a moral imperative that e.g. someone with ehlers danloss syndrome simply die because they lack the ability to get adequate nutrition from a purely plant based diet. my morality is not your morality because we have different subjectivity, and thats ok.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 00:15

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Crane Fist posted:

Do not condescend to me, American

i;m British, checkmate. also imo its disingenuous to want to have a conversation about drastically altering the food system while also pretending that externalities that artificially reduce the price of meat/cheese/egg etc. wouldnt be accounted for differnetly. if you live on a danish island or something then, again, yeah o.k. in your specific case it is entirely possible that staple plant foods are more expensive than other forms of nutrition, but the idea that in order to go vegan one MUST eat specialty processed replacement foods is pretty funny to me imo.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 00:44

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

endlessmonotony posted:

It turns out to be a really hard topic constantly full of nuance and difficult questions you wouldn't even know to ask. The example about EDS is especially relevant because you wouldn't believe how many vegans I've met who rather simply do not know and refuse to believe we're not yet at the point where a purely plant-based diet is possible for everyone.

And really the questions are ways I've determined to quickly pick up on who's just calling themselves "vegan" when they probably should be saying they aim to have a sustainable diet, and how many genuinely believe everyone who needs non-vegan food should die instead because they're automatically murderers. I take part in local politics. There's a lot of every kind of nutjob around, and ecofascists and vegans who want me dead are also included. In amounts that would probably startle you if this wasn't 2020.

Heh, minced meat is cheaper than most legumes here. Capitalism!

i studied food systems mate i actually know a lot of the good questions, and im actually totally sympathetic to pretty much everything you are saying i just also think its counterproductive to use interactions with, like, insane ELF people to reflexively slander the idea of transitioning to a primarily plant based global food system. that said i completely understand using filter questions to gauge how seriously someone has actually thought about any of this poo poo but id like to think this thread is actuyally a good place for you to attempt the more nuanced discussion without having to assume that all of us think you are an irredemable murderer or whatever. for the record i think 'ethical veganism' that fails to meaningfully wrestle with practical political economic questions of global food production, processing and distribution is basically dumb as hell but i also think that most people who have that stupid belief live in 'developed nations' where they are perfectly correct that on balance a vegan diet is the least harmful thing they could be eating so even though they are incredibly annoying i believe its a net good

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 00:48

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

endlessmonotony posted:

At this point I'm convinced we need a new system that explicitly shuts out the ecofash and aims for maximum harm reduction as opposed to any moral stance depending on your perception of the morality of killing animals. I was gonna say I'd miss cheese but gently caress, cheese's fats. I don't actually want dairy I want the fatty goodness and texture.

But yeah people may not give a poo poo about killing animals - sometimes I wonder if the majority gives a poo poo about killing humans - but everyone oughta be able to support the idea of "let's eat in a way that ensures we'll also have food tomorrow".

lol

I actually think that vegan cheese can be good as gently caress if it is made like normal cheese and not processed into pre wrapped slices or whatever, plenty of fat and gooey texture but thats a relatively new development. also hard agree with the correct frame being harm reduction over moralism, and i agree with crane that 'yes lets all be back to the landers in cottages actually' is really stupid and not productive, but since at least the three of us know that we can move past it and continue to have a conversation about what the least harmful sustainable global ag system might look like

i wrote my bachelor's capstone paper on the fascist/nazi roots in the organic farming movement and was almost excommunicated from my sustainable ag program lmao

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 01:09

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:

I'd be interested in looking into this - is there a book that provides a solid overview?

not that i could find really, there are a handful of papers from like seventy years ago that i found that are just neutrally recounting early organic history that off hand mention nazi guys attending the conferences lol, i mostly had to do primary research tbh

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 01:22

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Crane Fist posted:

Even worse!!

[twisted][twisted][twisted]

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 01:23

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

FacelessVoid posted:

If I understand your post, you're implying the only way an ecosystem can be balanced is if humans do some kind of predation to take nutrients out of it. Why can this not be done through natural predators? Or just balancing the nutrients flowing into the estuary in the first place?

Because the human pop is way above the level that byproducts from ag production can be managed in a hands off naturalistic way op

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 01:36

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Bot 02 posted:

Not to be "that vegan", but veganism is more than just eating plants. It's a philosophy which acknowledges animals' rights not to be harmed and exploited, and eating a plant based diet is a subset of that philosophy, but it also means that you're not necessarily vegan just based on your diet if you don't also subscribe to the philosophy in other aspects of your life.

Yeah, this is why I am pretty careful to always say I eat a plant based diet because I, for example, still use rubber bike tires with casein and wear used leather shoes and fundamentally do not agree that animal welfare is more important than human welfare while at the same time recognizing that causing animals to suffer is bad and should be avoided to the greatest practicable extent.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 23:34

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Crane Fist posted:

I'm extremely interested in hearing more about this

its not as interesting as it sounds, there was just a HUGE overlap between early aristocrat organic advocates like (the extremely cool) lady balfour and also out and out blood and soil nationalist german guys who saw organic production methods (at this time largely conceived of as the stuff that guy who wrote that book about composting in china that I cant even think of the name of despite the fact that he is like the godfather of western org. farming[myu brain is full of hole[) as part and parcel with their political program of recreating a kind of cottage farmer based society where the Old Ways are The BEst Ways and the food should be as pure as the blood of the nation.

In the paper I argued that this reactionary tendency actually never went away and explains why so many boomer hippy generation back to the lander types ultimately ended up being reactionary or like, how modern woo woo western nation people will believe in crystal healing and race science at the same time. Basically ecological thinking has always had a pretty large contingent of people who are fascistic and I believe this is under reckoned with. Im trying to find the paper but it was years ago now

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 23:38

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

ohrwurm posted:

i have cats and buy them meat food
i do what i am comfortable with and for those i care about

i got put on a block list that is widely circulated among disability activist twitter because i got in an argument with someone about how 'forcing pets to eat a vegan diet' wasn't abuse if the animal was not an obligate carnivore once lmao

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 23:41

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

also for everyone who want sgood vegan cheese at a more reasonable price just buy this book: https://www.amazon.com/Artisan-Vegan-Cheese-Miyoko-Schinner/dp/1570672830 because it loving owns

also this is the best meat substitute cookbook:" https://thegentlechef.com/gentle-chef-cookbooks/seitan-beyond-cookbook/

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 23:44

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

endlessmonotony posted:

It is important to note that if we engineer wetland so the runoff runs through it and gets to linger a bit, it can be reclaimed by weeds we can feed to animals or compost. In the case of those weeds we can capture the energy by eating the animals, drinking their milk or fermenting them for biogas. Every approach has its upsides and downsides, though the first one... isn't super great.

The only points where animals eating the food and us eating the animals is a preferable approach from a resources perspective are grazing and dealing with damaged / spoiled produce that wouldn't survive the processing required to make it human food.

But unless we entirely ruin the ecosystems of rivers to turn them into filters, this won't be enough to prevent the estuary from accumulating nutrients (and eventually, the sea or ocean - I live close to the Baltic and it's been one hell of a political fight to get the decline to stop). Also the farmers generally don't want to spend a bunch of extra time and dedicate land to stinky pits of recycling. Agricorps even less so.

If we leave it to natural predators the nutrients just stay in the same cycle in the coastal area for the most part, it'll overwhelm the available oxygen, and we're at a point where the ecosystem collapses into a pool of hungry slime.

I live on the west coast if the usa where salmor runs used to serve as a vector for massively replacing nutrients by taking them from the sea and literaly dragging them up mountains and then we killed all the beavers to build single family homes lol oops

# ¿ Nov 5, 2020 00:05

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 20:02

Crumbskull: Sep 13, 2005; The worker and the soil

Wamsutta posted:

this month is 4 years since I stopped eating animal products and it rules. i lost about 15lbs and maintained muscle/strength. safe to say at this stage I'm never going back. this thread is cool and good. the duality of thought for people who claim to care about climate change but also still eat meat is straight up lol

Climate.concerned meat eaters (in contexts where it wouldnt be a big deal to eat plant based) are basically like 'of course i think the meat industey is bad and ill gladly stop participating as soon as i am forced to'

# ¿ Nov 8, 2020 08:48

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