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I can understand being agnostic towards both or believing both, but outside of partisanship, I don't understand why someone would believe Christine Ford and not believe Tara Reade (or vice versa). Each case seems to have about the same amount of evidence, both have 30-40 years between the event and the public accusation. If anything, Reade has more contemporary witnesses.
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Feb 8, 2021 00:51
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I think Reade was also in the unenviable position of not wanting her rapist to become the president and not wanting Donald Trump to be reelected.
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Feb 8, 2021 01:34
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Phyzzle posted:I too wonder if anyone found Ford credible enough to hold up Kavanaugh's confirmation, without finding Reade much more credible. Kamala Harris, presumably.
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Feb 8, 2021 06:55
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After #metoo, I seriously thought we were going to have a difficult-but-necessary reckoning with all of the various abusers in the Dem party. Franken resigned. After Epstein's arrest, Christine Pelosi made a widely-mocked post about "some of our faves" being implicated, which, while cringeworthy, did indicate we were going to rid ourselves of the Bill Clintons and Bill Richardsons of the party. I thought #metoo was a line in the sand that said "yes, we've had our share of problems, and moving forward those problems will be dealt with, no matter how painful it is." And then they nominated a man credibly accused of rape, so actually none of that stuff mattered at all.
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Feb 8, 2021 17:06
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Grouchio posted:There would've been more credence to her larger claim had she not decided RT to be her main outlet, and had she not begun actively supporting Putin before 2020. This is a repulsive attitude. What does any of this have to do with the rape, which took place in 1993, or the contemporary accusations, which are documented throughout the 90s and 2000s?
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Feb 8, 2021 17:31
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silicone thrills posted:The party itself should not have put people in that position. Simple as that. There was 100% an option for them to say "hey this guy isn't going to be allowed to run under our banner" and be done with it but the DNC never did. This is my view as well. Part of being a Dem should be saying "we hold ourselves to a higher moral standard even if that means we lose sometimes." It is not enough to simply be less bad than the GOP. (And given the eventual margins of the election I think electability arguments kind of fall flat in hindsight)
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Feb 8, 2021 21:41
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DoomTrainPhD posted:Also: Yeah, it's hard to buy the idea that we all had to hold our nose and vote for Biden despite the allegations just this once, just to get rid of Trump when one of the most well documented scumbags on the planet is still a face of the party.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:45
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some plague rats posted:e: also wanted to add that seeing Biden’s behaviour dismissed as "creepy grandpa poo poo" is infuriating Agreed. It's also disheartening to see him talked about as a cute old man (He has rescue dogs! He likes ice cream!) while these accusations are never addressed. I feel like a big selling point was his personal demeanor, which all of these accusations undercut, but not really because they just get swept under the rug. It reminds me of the MAGA fanatics who go all starry eyed over Trump while ignoring every single thing about his personal life.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:50
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He'll be 82 in 2024. Hopefully he has enough sense not to run again.
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Feb 18, 2021 18:09
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Whoever the GOP nominee is is going to be as bad or worse than Trump in the minds of that 32%. See how quickly they sanitized GWB. Every election will always be "the most important election of our lives," so any blemishes on Biden's record can be swept under the rug. Of course, there's also a strong possibility that Trump will be the nominee in 2024 anyway.
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Feb 18, 2021 18:25
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Yeah I could reluctantly buy the idea that Trump was uniquely evil and we had to elect a lesser accused rapist and groper to get him out of office if the Dems didn't support and promote other rapists, rape apologists and rape enablers at every turn. Nominating Biden, nominating Tanden, giving Bill Clinton a featured slot at the DNC in TYOOL 2020 all make it pretty clear that they do not view this sort of behavior as disqualifying or even something worth hiding in the backrooms.
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Feb 18, 2021 21:50
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Yeah, the prevailing Democrat message at the time was that it was all consensual and you should be ashamed for digging into their private lives. Which A) totally ignores the fact that she was 22, he was 49 and also her boss and also the president and B) there were plenty of non-consensual allegations about Bill going back decades.
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Feb 19, 2021 05:35
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Neurolimal posted:Especially when said sexpest is a rich white dude? Don't worry, Cuomo's got it covered: https://twitter.com/nygovcuomo/status/825819936371142656?lang=en
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Mar 15, 2021 16:37
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Right, but isn't the whole appeal of the Democrats that they're a morally superior party? I don't expect Republicans to resign in response to bad behavior because they explicitly campaign on being the biggest pieces of poo poo imaginable. Democrats pretend to be better, but when the allegations hit home, there's always some tenuous justification for keeping a monster in power (or nominating one in the first place).
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Mar 15, 2021 20:24
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How are u posted:Not to me, no. Many of the policies that the Democratic Party has proposed are definitely the morally superior choice compared to those of the Republican Party, to be sure. However, I definitely don't decide which party to support by first asking "who is the most morally superior?" Rather, I look at the policies they're pushing and, unfortunately because of our antiquated political system, have to weigh those against the alternative of Republicans in power. But you're making those decisions based on your own morality, your own understanding of right and wrong, good and bad, etc. You might view it as choosing as a faceless gray slate of policies, where the individual politicians are irrelevant, but at the heart you're still making a moral judgement. And unfortunately I don't think most people have divorced the two concepts like you have.
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Mar 15, 2021 21:51
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Probably a difference between "have you heard of the rape allegations made by Tara Reade against Joe Biden" asked by a pollster in May 2020 and the general public being able to recall Reade's name and the allegations after a year of silence from the media (especially when there's a famous actor with a similar name).
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Mar 26, 2021 06:14
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https://twitter.com/WhiteHouseGPC/status/1377618583354753028 This would be comical if it weren't so depressing. VVVV Jesus christ Lester Shy fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 19:03
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Cuomo, isn't even a Democrat at this point. What? This is a weird read on a guy who has not been expelled from either the state or national party. At this point last year, there was serious talk about drafting him to be the Dem nominee. Lester Shy fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 18:40
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Yes, he's a weird, abusive rear end in a top hat who sucks to work with and be governed by, but he's still a Democrat. You can't no-true-scotsman him out of the party.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:54
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I believe women when they come forward at great personal risk with their stories of workplace harassment and abuse, so yes I do think the "investigations" are smoke and mirrors, or more accurately, a way to kick the can down the road until enough people have forgotten or forgiven. Are you expecting the investigation will find evidence that all these women are lying?
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Apr 10, 2021 16:24
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If you're not convinced after 10+ accusers, I truly don't think an investigation is going to change that. "Political capital" doesn't exist except as an excuse for why politicians can't do good things, but even if it did, NY Dems should spend some of it to remove this toxic shithead from office ASAP, if they want to have any principles at all.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:45
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Sodomy Hussein posted:the goalpost on this thread for a long time was not enough Democrats calling on Cuomo to resign, and now it's "they haven't forced him to resign by now so they just don't care." That doesn't match up with the facts. A call to resign is predicated on the belief that it will have the intended effect, no? If you demand Cuomo's resignation and he refuses, I think it's fair to expect you to exercise your power and take steps toward impeachment. You demanded the resignation before any investigation; there's no reason the investigation would change your impression of the situation unless you believe there's a chance that all of these women are lying. I can't speak for the rest of the thread, but my position from the beginning has been that Cuomo should be removed ASAP. I don't care that it's unprecedented. If Dems want to be a party that values and believes women, they should be willing to take unprecedented steps to remove abusers from office.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:49
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Investigations are also a political tool to sway public opinion, create more solid foundations for action, and shed more details on what actually happened. And again you are asking for Democrats to leverage mechanisms that don't exist, causing all manner of political and civil collateral damage, simply because Democrats are not acting quickly enough by your completely arbitrary standard to replace Cuomo with one of his lieutenants. This is an argument for inaction in all cases because doing anything might rock the boat. Trump's impeachment caused all manner of political and civil collateral damage because it delayed COVID relief by several weeks, and yet Democrats pursued it anyway, despite the fact that they knew what the outcome would be from the beginning. NY Dems have to stand up on principle at some point. Otherwise Cuomo's just going to skate, like Northam did, like Biden did, like Trump did.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:32
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Simultaneously blaming Democrats for taking a principled stand against Trump and letting him skate at the same time, using reasoning that in both cases is not true, nice. That's not what I meant, but I could have been more clear. Northam skated on blackface. Biden skated on the rape of Tara Reade. Trump skated on too many things to count, from his dozens of accusers to the Access Hollywood tape to inciting 1/6. In all of these cases, a rebuke from each man's own party could have solved the problem instead of letting it fester. In each of these cases, the party chose to do nothing for cynical reasons. That's fine, it's what I've come to expect. But I don't buy the argument that the cynical, pragmatic approach is also the moral one.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:51
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That's fine. Northam is obviously a different case because unlike Biden, Cuomo or Trump, it's just a photo, there's nothing illegal about blackface and there are no people alleging actual physical harm or abuse. I'd say that getting to remain governor in that situation counts as skating, but I'm not gonna argue the point.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:00
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Sodomy Hussein posted:It may be pragmatic, but it isn't cynical; the cynical approach is on display throughout this thread. What do you mean by this? Crosby B. Alfred posted:Maybe to you but no one else would define it as such because he nearly lost his entire career, profusely apologized and made amends by doing a ton of work to help minority rights in Virginia. Well, "nearly" is the point. He didn't lose his job. Basically anybody in any "normal" public-facing job would be fired for photos of that nature, regardless of their apologies.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:09
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Christ I missed the fact that he's an MD. Sure hope his black patients got the same quality of care as his white patients!
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Apr 10, 2021 21:31
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The voters of Virginia decided there wasn't a need to do better than Northam because they believed his apology, he made amends and there wasn't a need to remove him from office. Northam was elected in 2017, the blackface photos came to light in 2019. The voters have had no say in his fate since then, and he's uneligible for reelection.
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Apr 10, 2021 22:03
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comedyblissoption posted:just want to throw in that some liberals are so deranged from the smears about Tara Reade that they are treating her as part of some insane mccarthyist conspiracy This poo poo drives me mad. Liberal orthodoxy says you're supposed to believe Tara Reade because you believe women when they come forward with accusations about powerful men. But believing Tara Reade would mean that you just helped put yet another rapist in the White House. So you have to invent all of this insane guilt-by-association horseshit to smear a regular human being and assuage your conscience. I would respect them more if they straight up called her a liar or said they didn't care about the accusations. At least it'd be honest.
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Apr 11, 2021 03:35
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I'm not opposed to an investigation, but I cannot imagine what would take so long. Beyond confirming these women are who they say they are/worked where they say they worked, I doubt there's going to be much or any physical evidence and it's already a he said-she said-she said-she said-ad nauseum story. Seems like the sort of thing you could knock out in a week if you wanted to, or you could drag it out until people get tired and forget about it. But don't take my word for it. https://twitter.com/LindseyBoylan/status/1372191957586436097
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Apr 11, 2021 04:44
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's QAnon for liberals, not surprised it's become infused with Russiagate. The worst part is, the election is over, Biden won; you don't have to smear this innocent woman anymore! I doubt anybody in MAGA World gives half a poo poo what Christine Blasey Ford is up to these days. They either didn't believe her or didn't care and Kavanaugh's on the court for life, so what's the difference anyway? But Tara Reade couldn't possibly be telling the truth because that would mean I voted for a rapist. So we have to have this constant character assassination for the rest of her life, I guess. I'm sure that won't have a chilling effect on other women with stories to tell.
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Apr 11, 2021 05:35
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socialsecurity posted:This seems like quite the stretch from a single tweet from some rando. Ahmad is hardly a rando, but just do a twitter search for Reade's name and you'll find plenty of randos and bluecheck liberals continuing to smear her to this day.
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Apr 12, 2021 15:14
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indiscriminately posted:Be angry at those particular blue checkmarks then. It's a normal human impulse to want to extrapolate- the comportment of particular obnoxious individuals must signify the moral attitudes of the much larger groups those individuals represent, right? We have a term for that, prejudice. I understand the anger and disgust but there must be a better, healthier way to channel those feelings than othering and hating a huge swath of the population. My mom is a liberal, she's the sweetest, kindest person I've ever met, she has no ill will toward Tara Reade. If a party knowingly nominates a rapist, I'm gonna blame the party. Sorry. Being a Democrat is not an immutable aspect of a person's character.
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Apr 12, 2021 15:50
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How are u posted:Biden has 10 accusers? Reade is the only one I've ever heard of. Reade is the only one who accuses Biden of outright sexual assault, but he has a well documented history of being inappropriate with women, on par with the Cuomo allegations, I'd say. All the Women Who Have Spoken Out Against Joe Biden Harris: 'I believe' Biden accusers quote:Sen. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.) said Tuesday that she believes women who say they felt uncomfortable after receiving unwanted touching from former Vice President Joe Biden. Note that the above story is from 2019, before Reade came forward.
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Apr 12, 2021 16:34
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How are u posted:Folks may disagree, but it is clear to me that democracy itself was on the line in the 2020 election, and I think Trump and the Republicans' actions in the lame-duck period that culminated in an actual literal violent coup attempt bear that out. I couldn't ever hold a 2020 vote for Biden against anybody. Every election I can remember has been "the most important election of our lives." You can certainly make a case that this was actually true in 2020, but do you imagine that it won't also be true in 2024 and beyond? Do you think the GOP nominee will be less of a fascist than Trump (assuming it's not just Trump again)? I can understand this rationale, but it can easily be used to paper over any and all Dem failings because they'll always be facing off against a Republican. To be clear, I blame Biden primary voters and the DNC apparatus a lot more than Biden GE voters, but I do think they have a responsibility to reckon with their choice now that the dust has settled.
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Apr 12, 2021 17:49
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indiscriminately posted:Vote for the seemingly less bad option, which takes a half hour of your time on one day every two or four years- then apply the huge remainder of your time to helping your community in what ways you can, when & where you can. Provide people a positive example, show them what the good values are, encourage them to be like you. Or: don't vote, but do all the other stuff. This is sort of like when people say "why aren't you letting illegal immigrants stay at your house if you're so concerned with their treatment?" Yes, obviously we should all be doing what we can to support our communities, but there are people and organizations with a thousand times more power than little old me who are responsible for putting us in this situation to begin with, and they have no interest in change. If we never deal with them, we're going to have to keep making this horrible choice every four years. I just don't like any solution that turns every person into a little individual actor making decisions in a vacuum.
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Apr 13, 2021 20:24
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indiscriminately posted:That immigrant thing is vindictive. I don't feel what I suggested is like that. I don't think it's a 1:1 comparison, but "what should you do for your local community" and "what should we do about national problems" are two separate questions. I don't like conflating the two, and you can easily use one to distract from the other. I could spend the rest of my life volunteering at the local women's shelter; that won't stop the DNC from continuing to nominate rapists.
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Apr 13, 2021 22:50
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Still Dismal posted:This is exactly what I'm getting at. People born the year he ran would be pushing 50. If you consider Joe Biden a monster, then we are ruled by monsters, nearly without exception. I think that saying "gently caress this", and checking out is totally defensible if you believe this. But I also think that selecting the least bad monster is as well. I believe we could have a future where we don't elect rapists and monsters to the most powerful positions on earth, where we aren't constantly asked to choose the lesser of two evils. These aren't immutable facts of nature; the status quo can be changed. But you have want the change, not convince yourself you're actually happy with how things are or close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:51
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How are u posted:I"m sorry, "rapes" plural? There was a single accusation, and a complete and utter lack of any other people following up with their own accusations. It's really quite striking when compared to other politicians who have been accused of similar. ??? It's pretty much exactly like the Kavanaugh accusation. Also Joe Biden has a well-documented history of touching women inappropriately (on camera, even).
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Jun 9, 2021 18:23
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How are u posted:I"m sorry, "rapes" plural? There was a single accusation, and a complete and utter lack of any other people following up with their own accusations. It's really quite striking when compared to other politicians who have been accused of similar. Also this is just a really bizarre criterion for believably. Tara Reade would have more credibility if other women had come forward after her? In this case, she's the one coming forward after other women had already spoken about Biden's inappropriate behavior.
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Jun 9, 2021 19:01
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