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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I only post in the Doomsday econ thread so I hope it's okay if I share my two cents here. Journalists are given access, as least in a pre covid world, even those highly critical of China like https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48667221 As has been posted before you can also literally visit Xinjiang, it is not an open air prison. China is also open about its U2C population control measures and has removed the exemption from ethnic minorities in 2017. Uighur population in Xinjiang is still growing and has not declined. What annoys me is that you can't just pick one of the aspects of cultural genocide and call it a day. Population control is enforced across Han Chinese as well, do you want to make the claim that the Han are genociding themselves? That's ridiculous. As your hypothetical american reeducation camps the US does not need to do this in camps as the whole system inside the country is built around assimilation into the american way of life lol.
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Mar 26, 2021 23:18
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i regret to inform everyone that i did give cspam too much credit. a lot of people here have not internalized a pure hatred for amerikkka and that’s why they continue to do a both sides thing. please continue with the whataboutism, it’s good and necessary also trying to bring up ancient history or whatever is not just dumb but actually abhorrent. there is currently one state in the world which enforces its imperial hegemony at the point of a gun, and has recently murdered many millions, while displacing tens of millions more - all while upholding itself as a bastion of democracy, freedom, and liberty. it is truly sick and above and beyond worse than all second power competitors. there is no comparison, no one else is playing the same game, no one else is in the same ballpark death to america
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Mar 26, 2021 23:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsOMEUamYkc
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Mar 26, 2021 23:21
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oxsnard posted:but again this is all based on "what about the US?" There are zero cspam regulars who think america is good, or there shouldn't be and they would deserve mockery and/or bans for posting "actually america is good" memes. You can think that the US is worse than China without turning it into "china is good" There are people in this very thread who run cover for the US's concentration camps next door, fyi.
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Mar 26, 2021 23:22
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The Oldest Man posted:There are people in this very thread who run cover for the US's concentration camps next door, fyi. who? Because gently caress them and they should be mocked and or banned
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Mar 26, 2021 23:23
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oxsnard posted:who? Because gently caress them and they should be mocked and or banned I know we're not a name and shame others sub but any cspam regulars who do that should be ostracized in the classical sense
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Mar 26, 2021 23:24
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:I know we're not a name and shame others sub but any cspam regulars who do that should be ostracized in the classical sense
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Mar 26, 2021 23:25
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THS posted:i regret to inform everyone that i did give cspam too much credit. a lot of people here have not internalized a pure hatred for amerikkka and that’s why they continue to do a both sides thing. please continue with the whataboutism, it’s good and necessary
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Mar 26, 2021 23:26
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Ferrinus posted:IS China adopting a stance of aggressive stonewalling? I know that UN inspectors are formally allowed in, though they complain of being followed by police. It's not really true that the region is a black box. literally the first hit on google https://www.statista.com/statistics/1063631/iud-contraception-use-in-europe/ posted:In Norway in 2018, 23.3 percent of women aged 15 to 49 years were using intrauterine devices (IUD), the highest prevalence of this form of contraception in Europe. Estonia and France both had a prevalence of 21.5 percent of women in the country with an IUD. While in Albania and Poland, less than one percent of women had an IUD implanted. High IUD rates being suspicious by themselves also seems like a strange assertion. Some people want to have sex without having children or going through a pregnancy or an abortion. I don't think that almost one-in-four Norwegian women of child bearing age having IUD's is itself an indication of anything other than women wanting control over their own bodies.
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Mar 26, 2021 23:28
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THS posted:i regret to inform everyone that i did give cspam too much credit. a lot of people here have not internalized a pure hatred for amerikkka and that’s why they continue to do a both sides thing. please continue with the whataboutism, it’s good and necessary
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Mar 26, 2021 23:30
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THS posted:i regret to inform everyone that i did give cspam too much credit. a lot of people here have not internalized a pure hatred for amerikkka and that’s why they continue to do a both sides thing. please continue with the whataboutism, it’s good and necessary
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Mar 26, 2021 23:33
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comedyblissoption posted:i mean wouldnt this principle mean you should credulously believe iraq has wmds or iran is about to nuke israel or qadaffi is about to butcher civilians or that morales stole the election No, not really. If someone said that Saddam was about to gas the Kurds again, well, he's did that before. When the US claimed that Iraq had mobile enrichment centers for plutonium, lol, that's insane. Iraq had chemical weapons, but to claim they somehow developed nuclear ones like that was just stupid. Iran is belligerent with Israel, but they aren't stupid. They may want to eliminate Israel, but they'd like to exist afterwards too. States do things in their interest, even if we think that interest doesn't make sense or it offends us. I didn't flesh it out in my previous comment, but if a country has a clear history of human rights abuses, well, why couldn't they commit another? And believe is too strong a term, entertain is probably more accurate. I'm willing to believe these kinds of things about nations just like I'm willing to believe a lot of the accusations thrown at cops, even if I don't have hard evidence for every single one, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to believe literally any accusation.
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Mar 26, 2021 23:35
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Admiral Ray posted:No, not really. If someone said that Saddam was about to gas the Kurds again, well, he's did that before. When the US claimed that Iraq had mobile enrichment centers for plutonium, lol, that's insane. Iraq had chemical weapons, but to claim they somehow developed nuclear ones like that was just stupid. Iran is belligerent with Israel, but they aren't stupid. They may want to eliminate Israel, but they'd like to exist afterwards too. States do things in their interest, even if we think that interest doesn't make sense or it offends us. i mostly agree with this but any mention of saddam using chemical weapons should also include the fact that the us were the ones that gave them to him so yeah, we always knew he had chemical weapons because we had the loving receipts
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Mar 26, 2021 23:41
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Gringostar posted:like, has anyone actually said that china was wrong about sanctioning people in the trump administration here? China sanctioning all those blowhards is less about punishing them and more about helping them not be hypocritical. Nice guy China helping them keep honest, so they don’t make a fortune in Chinese investments while advocating for them to Balkanize.
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Mar 26, 2021 23:48
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oxsnard posted:but again this is all based on "what about the US?" There are zero cspam regulars who think america is good, or there shouldn't be and they would deserve mockery and/or bans for posting "actually america is good" memes. You can think that the US is worse than China without turning it into "china is good" never posited china is good just that if were looking at who is worst bad guy on the world stage with a proven track record of exporting violence and misery it is america and that this whole campaign of china bad feels a lot like the slow roll of what went on before the invasion of iraq hence im super loving skeptical about it all like yeah china is doing some bad poo poo yet america literally turns a blind eye to a poo poo load of atrocities from so called "allies". so why this massive campaign of china doing genocide all of a sudden thats permeating everything when weve stood by and not given a poo poo when others do the same exact same poo poo and hell you can even get blackballed from academia for even positing that said allies are committing genocide Agrajag has issued a correction as of 23:55 on Mar 26, 2021 |
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Mar 26, 2021 23:48
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THS posted:i regret to inform everyone that i did give cspam too much credit. a lot of people here have not internalized a pure hatred for amerikkka and that’s why they continue to do a both sides thing. please continue with the whataboutism, it’s good and necessary literally this america is thousands of miles ahead in the crimes against humanity race than any other country in the world people arguing from some moral high ground about china bad rings hollow as gently caress
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Mar 26, 2021 23:57
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Admiral Ray posted:No, not really. If someone said that Saddam was about to gas the Kurds again, well, he's did that before. When the US claimed that Iraq had mobile enrichment centers for plutonium, lol, that's insane. Iraq had chemical weapons, but to claim they somehow developed nuclear ones like that was just stupid. Iran is belligerent with Israel, but they aren't stupid. They may want to eliminate Israel, but they'd like to exist afterwards too. States do things in their interest, even if we think that interest doesn't make sense or it offends us. https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/exclusive-cia-files-prove-america-helped-saddam-as-he-gassed-iran/ quote:The U.S. government may be considering military action in response to chemical strikes near Damascus. But a generation ago, America’s military and intelligence communities knew about and did nothing to stop a series of nerve gas attacks far more devastating than anything Syria has seen, Foreign Policy has learned.
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Mar 27, 2021 00:00
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Agrajag posted:literally this america is thousands of miles ahead in the crimes against humanity race than any other country in the world name and shame the people doing this in cspam tia i have no doubt that d&d is doing this even though i have not checked nor will i ever because d&d loving sucks
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Mar 27, 2021 00:01
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THS posted:i regret to inform everyone that i did give cspam too much credit. a lot of people here have not internalized a pure hatred for amerikkka and that’s why they continue to do a both sides thing. please continue with the whataboutism, it’s good and necessary
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Mar 27, 2021 00:13
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Agrajag posted:like theres some serious double standards going on here and makes me wonder what exactly the motivations are for this campaign going on in regards to china bad Agrajag posted:also having watched the slow roll of the Iraq war WMD campaign play out makes me extremely skeptical of whats being pushed out in regards to China bad Agrajag posted:our entire foreign policy history is literally manufacturing various excuses for invading other countries, violent regime change, proxy wars, funding death squads, and supporting/creating dictators that commit crimes against humanity/genocide Agrajag posted:never posited china is good just that if were looking at who is worst bad guy on the world stage with a proven track record of exporting violence and misery it is america and that this whole campaign of china bad feels a lot like the slow roll of what went on before the invasion of iraq hence im super loving skeptical about it all are you capable of forming a second thought on the issue Eugene V. Dubstep has issued a correction as of 00:16 on Mar 27, 2021 |
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Mar 27, 2021 00:14
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:are you capable of forming a second thought on the issue Has anyone refuted the first?
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Mar 27, 2021 00:23
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the truth is repetitive
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Mar 27, 2021 00:29
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all I'm saying is that "US/western imperialism is bad" is a base viewpoint among leftists. So while it's fine to point out the hypocrisy when joe biden or mike bolton try to wring their hands about chinese genocide, I don't think it's a particularly helpful point of reference on an ostensibly leftist internet forum
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Mar 27, 2021 00:34
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oxsnard posted:all I'm saying is that "US/western imperialism is bad" is a base viewpoint among leftists. So while it's fine to point out the hypocrisy when joe biden or mike bolton try to wring their hands about chinese genocide, I don't think it's a particularly helpful point of reference on an ostensibly leftist internet forum But what is the point then of continuing to belabor that China bad too? Who does it benefit except to own posting enemies? There is, at least , a benefit to westerners and Americans talking about American crimes because we can at least do something about it more than just have our country rattle a saber at a foreign power. If you just want people to admit China is doing a very bad thing, then congrats you seem to have already gotten it from everyone here. What else, then, is the goal?
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Mar 27, 2021 00:39
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really queer Christmas posted:But what is the point then of continuing to belabor that China bad too? Who does it benefit except to own posting enemies? There is, at least , a benefit to westerners and Americans talking about American crimes because we can at least do something about it more than just have our country rattle a saber at a foreign power. If you just want people to admit China is doing a very bad thing, then congrats you seem to have already gotten it from everyone here. What else, then, is the goal? I posted earlier that saying "china genocide!!!" as a posting own is bad too, I just don't find the back and forth rhetoric productive for the community. But yeah, china should be critiqued for the individual things they do bad. So you should be able to talk about the chinese shadow banking system or HK riots or them executing billionaires (yippee) without it coming back to GENOCIDE! chat. I'm with ya there for the most part 
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Mar 27, 2021 00:44
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the explicit question that started this thread is where the line on discussion around Xinjiang should be drawn, i.e. how do we define what exactly consitutes genocide denial in c-spam. palestine, yemen, the war crimes of the united states, etc. etc. have literally nothing to do with the factual question of whether a genocide is taking place in Xinjiang. but the people who keep saying that NO ONE would dispute that something bad is happening there seem weirdly reticent about actually discussing what that something is. instead they want to talk about anything else in the world except what China is doing to the Uighurs, in the thread about what China is doing to the Uighurs contextualising the propaganda around the question is one thing. Explaining why the vicious American empire is lying about its enemy China is totally legitimate itt, imo. But the insistence that Westerners should not be talking about a particular genocide while other atrocities exist, in the thread about that particular genocide, is stupid really queer Christmas posted:But what is the point then of continuing to belabor that China bad too? Who does it benefit except to own posting enemies? There is, at least , a benefit to westerners and Americans talking about American crimes because we can at least do something about it more than just have our country rattle a saber at a foreign power. If you just want people to admit China is doing a very bad thing, then congrats you seem to have already gotten it from everyone here. What else, then, is the goal? this is just not true. I keep reading variations on 'everyone has already admitted that China is doing a very bad thing!' but then two posts later someone refers that very bad thing as 'occupational training' or 'patriotism classes'. Am I allowed to call that gaslighting? It seems appropriate Eugene V. Dubstep has issued a correction as of 00:53 on Mar 27, 2021 |
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Mar 27, 2021 00:45
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as a frame of reference, a better way to attack US and western anti-chinese propaganda is the ghost cities or covid responses. Those were examples where the west got it 100% wrong and China was mostly correct in their actions
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Mar 27, 2021 00:46
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the thread was a release valve so this Hot Topic discussion doesn’t spill over into other threads earlier in the week. it could probably be closed at this point because i think most everyone has said their piece. there is an east asia thread, after all
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Mar 27, 2021 00:52
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really queer Christmas posted:But what is the point then of continuing to belabor that China bad too? Who does it benefit except to own posting enemies? There is, at least , a benefit to westerners and Americans talking about American crimes because we can at least do something about it more than just have our country rattle a saber at a foreign power. If you just want people to admit China is doing a very bad thing, then congrats you seem to have already gotten it from everyone here. What else, then, is the goal? an injustice somewhere is an injustice everywhere
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Mar 27, 2021 00:52
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THS posted:i regret to inform everyone that i did give cspam too much credit. a lot of people here have not internalized a pure hatred for amerikkka and that’s why they continue to do a both sides thing. please continue with the whataboutism, it’s good and necessary
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Mar 27, 2021 01:00
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:instead they want to talk about anything else in the world except what China is doing this kind of thing appears to be pure projection. this is a 38 page thread with extensive discussion
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Mar 27, 2021 01:04
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Brain Candy posted:this kind of thing appears to be pure projection. this is a 38 page thread with extensive discussion read the post quoted one above yours
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Mar 27, 2021 01:06
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I guess to the point of why isn't China just openly releasing everything to let people see for themselves is that it still wouldn't deter the USA. Iran followed everything the nuclear demanded from then and still the US just decided they are megahitler after all. Though liberals soothe their conscience by claiming it was just Trump doing that on his own. Agreeing though with the notion that the thread has run its course.
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Mar 27, 2021 01:07
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let's not let a consensus of five tankies backseat modding on friday night dictate whether the thread stays open
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Mar 27, 2021 01:08
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i dont think ive been called a tankie before in cspam lol hell yea
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Mar 27, 2021 01:12
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oxsnard posted:who? Because gently caress them and they should be mocked and or banned Dunno if I'm still under threat of orbital strike for Starting Cross Forums Drama but what the gently caress ever. China concentration camps: quote:What will we accept as adequate clarity? At what point are we willing to actually call it genocide? Does this ruling also apply to WWII, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of Native Americans, the genocide of aboriginal people in Australia, or literally any other context or situation? The fact that there's inadequate documentation isn't incidental, but intentional, and any statement about how many people died in any of these other situations is also the result of a lot of guesswork and estimation, but no one denies that they happened in the modern day (with the exception of the Armenian genocide, natch). If you don't establish at what point you are willing to accept that "this is actually bad enough that I don't think we can get away with saying it isn't genocide", then you have created a situation where some number of people will continue to deny that it is happening well past the point where everyone except China is acknowledging it. US concentration camps: quote:Okay, so are you going to address the argument about how you can tell how close or far apart people are based on the photos, cuz so far no one has made even a cursory attempt to explain how that is somehow more good or useful as evidence than actual numbers of people in detention in a particular place in comparison to the rated capacity under pandemic conditions. Eyeballing crowding based on where people are standing in a single snapshot is not useful or broadly indicative. The whole reason I linked to the article about news stories running wide-angle lens photos is because we have spent the whole past year seeing people do this exact thing, and when you add in the fact that "my inauguration was the biggest ever" was the first Trump admin lie I have no idea why people would ever trust a photo to be an accurate reflection of the distance between people. Don't settle for low-value evidence just because you don't have high-value evidence at hand, research and agitate for better reporting standards, more transparency from the admin, and then make a judgment once you have the facts rather than using incomplete evidence to draw low-certainty conclusions. Same poster.
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Mar 27, 2021 01:12
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Flavius Aetass posted:don't worry about next door, just understand that i was able to open the topic up a bit on C-SPAM but it's still going to be a sensitive issue to post about so mind that when you do But why start actually reading the thread now when you can just call people tankies instead
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Mar 27, 2021 01:12
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THS posted:i dont think ive been called a tankie before in cspam lol hell yea
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Mar 27, 2021 01:14
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The Oldest Man posted:Dunno if I'm still under threat of orbital strike for Starting Cross Forums Drama but what the gently caress ever. I mean if that's d&d not much we can do besides laugh.
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Mar 27, 2021 01:14
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Junkozeyne posted:But why start actually reading the thread now when you can just call people tankies instead grow a thicker skin
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Mar 27, 2021 01:15
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