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I thought the Evart twins were more an allusion to Putin and Medvedev doing a job swap to get around the term limits on the Russian presidency. It's not some super deep commentary on two party politics, it's a straightfoward dig at people thinking that you can solve problems of concentration of power by writing a rulebook that says you aren't allowed to concentrate power. The Evarts break the spirit of the rulebook, and they maintain power by doing nasty stuff entirely outside of the scope of the rulebook, but they can say with a straight face that they are following all the rules and that lets them use the rulebook as a veneer of legitimacy. e: Re the tribunal: I think the real red card against Evrart is not that he's provoking a conflict, it's that he's provoking a massacre. The Hardie Boys are being set up to be killed and they don't know it. It's unclear to me if Rosie knows. But the Hardies aren't Evrart's real wetwork guys and he could definitely arrange for things to be a lot cleaner. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 20:51
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I mean it's deliberate framing by the game developers that you never meet anyone who might plausibly replace Evrart.
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Apr 28, 2022 22:07
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The game is explicit that the Union could be using the strike to successfully extract concessions from Wild Pines, Evrart isn't content to make things a bit better for Martinaise, he's making a play to flip the table and take everything (so that the Union can freely go big on the drugs trade remember). There also was a nicer less corrupt Union leader. Evrart and Edgar had them killed.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:17
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dead gay comedy forums posted:wanna pick up on this one because I feel this might be important to contrast with an anglocentric view of the world This was a good post and I appreciate it quote:the question that should be asked is: how bad things had to be so that guys like the Claires enjoy so much support. This is dealing with historical circumstances, the world as it is. The previous union leader getting offed is no big deal because she was a class traitor (the deserter and a couple of skills comment about that), having the in-game equivalent of a Hermés bag that no longshorewoman could ever be able to afford. The people of Martinaise couldn't give less of a poo poo about it because they knew that. If she actually had the support of the debardeurs, the Claires would never get away with it. I think you overreach a bit here. If previous union leader did not have real support then the Claires would not have had her assassinated. The Claires are doing the classic authoritarian move of offering people security and an improvement in living conditions in exchange for not noticing that they've given up their right to have any say over how they are governed. The improvement in living conditions is selective (if you get in the way of the Claire's plans then life will be made unbearable for you) and anyone who openly expresses discontent gets intimidated into silence. Everything about their power is illegitimate, from how they gained it to how they maintain it to how they exercise it (compelling signatures for the development). They're riding on having an external enemy that's worse than them (a situation they've deliberately cultivated) and the situation in Martinaise being just okay enough and the cost of opposing them being just great enough that nobody wants to do it. Note that none of the Union members you meet actually believe what Evrart believes, the closest is the guy on the stairs who straight up tells you that he and everyone else knows about all the corruption and nastiness but are going along with it for a chance to grab a greater piece of the pie. e: in other words, the Claires rule through the maintenance of a fascade that means most of the Union can tell themselves they are happy with how things are, while doing everything possible to ensure that risks of questioning that fascade are so high that nobody is willing to do it. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 10:24
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Lampsacus posted:Anything I should know before playing this for the first time? While passive checks open up dialogue/things you wouldn't experience otherwise, you can chase that on subsequent playthoughs. Try to keep a bank of 1-2 skill points so that you have the option to immediately retry a white check or boost a particularly interesting red check or immediately start on a thought, rather than find yourself stonewalled on a particular thing and have to go off and do something else to get xp. Manage your clothes inventory from the start according to type, you will appreciate this by the end. I would tenatively suggest that if you aren't sure about unlocking a thought then it's okay to look it up on the wiki to see what it actually does and see if you care. Some quests you get early on are impossible to progress until you reach certain unrelated milestones in other quests or time. Do not tunnel vision fixate on clearing the quest log, if something seems impossible (particularly if the quest log strongly hints it is) then just move on to the next thing. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 09:43 on May 8, 2022 |
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May 8, 2022 09:40
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Measurehead is someone who wants to change the world and Disco Elysium has a smidgin of respect for any character who actually believes in something and wants to implement those beliefs. I think Measurehead is the only fascist in the game who is driven by the desire to actually build something rather than by nihilistic impotent rage, which is why he gets slightly different treatement.
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May 19, 2022 08:20
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GlyphGryph posted:Unlike Harry, she doesn't really have an alternative. The moment she stops acting like that, she is going to die. She came to the Whirling in Rags in the hopes of just... forgetting about that. She almost did, too, and she risked quite a lot by sticking around and putting herself in a situation where she could even possible be arrested, so I don't think its fair to say she hasn't changed at all or that she's a pure void. She's just desperate, more than anything. A redemption arc requires an environment where growth is possible and she finally thought she found one only to have the guy she was with get capped in the dome from a random rear end sniper and suddenly death is right at her doorstep again. Oof, She comes to the Whirling Rags and immediately starts having sex with the leaders of the two armed groups in the area, to the point where when one of them dies the other is immediately on hand to help her. Yeah there's real emotion and nihilism there but she is still manipulating everyone around her. She parties to escape her past, but just like Harry she can't help being a human can opener. .
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May 25, 2022 21:49
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YggiDee posted:If there's hope for Harry, I have to believe there's hope for Klassje. If that makes me an idiot, so be it. I mean I think that's one of the three or four bullet point top things you are supposed to take away from the game (or if you make the other decision, to understand the parallel).
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May 25, 2022 22:24
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Evrart's corruption isn't seen as necessary, its just forgiven by the Union characters both because he does genuinely believe in making things better and because the cost of opposing him is getting your body dumped in the river. I dont think the game explicitly says it, but it is pretty clear that the long term fate of the Union is going to be the one that all groups share where the leadership has eliminated all the potential successor candidates and the next layer down of the organisation responsible for enforcing loyalty doesn't actually care about the ideology at all. The DeClaires are trying to build a legacy while using methods that basically ensure their movement won't survive them.
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Jun 13, 2022 13:22
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Orange Devil posted:So who is the next layer down of the organisation responsible for enforcing loyalty but doesn't actually care about the ideology at all? Mañana, the Hardie Boys, the unseen Wetwork squad, Measurehead, and literally Harry. Only the Hardies arguably actually believe, and by astonishing coincidence Evrart's plan knowingly involves them all getting killed.
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Jun 13, 2022 15:31
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She feels bad enough about the situtation that she has shown up personally to try to unfuck it.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:49
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Literally none of these guys are in any position to inherit the union lol, this is a list of the most expendable thugs in (and for some reason out of) the union. The Claires represent an entire implied bureaucratic apparatus that doesn't get speaking roles because it's not a game about interviewing every single union member or explaining how the cards get printed That was what I described them as. The Claires do not represet an implied bureaucratic apparatus, the game is explicit that they've had anyone with any leadership potential murdered, which is how they keep effortlessly job swapping way past their term limits. They have no intention of ever stepping down, they have liquidated anyone who might replace them, they have undermined and discredited the system that selects the union membership, and they have normalised a system that is utterly corrupt at the top. The next person who takes over the Union will not be someone who believes in the Union, or who is the choice of the workers, it will be someone who makes the best offer to the thugs. e: also their long term plan for the port is literally become a narco-state. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Jun 14, 2022 |
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Jun 14, 2022 07:56
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A key thing is that even though it might not make much sense at the time, there are very few side quests or activities that do not in some way advance your investigation. Everything is relevant and part of a large jigsaw.
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Jul 12, 2022 10:44
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The most solid criticism of DE is the wardrobe shuffle you do in the middle of conversations to be more persuasive/insightful. Also having to remember to actually put tools in your hands to get bonuses from them. Fiddly and unnecessary.
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Jul 12, 2022 10:56
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:The Hardies signed up to be expendable muscle, which was a job that really seems to have existed more to keep them out of the way than because the Union really needs someone roughing up petty criminals. When they go pick a fight with the mercs there's really nothing Claire can do about it except try and turn it to the Union's advantage, which he does. IDK how much moral value there'd be to putting on a show of deep concern for those meatheads while doing that, that'd just be more of the same kind of empty posturing we see from the moralist characters. The Hardies are muscle for Ruby, who runs the drug trade in Terminal B. I don't think Harry ever explicitly calls them out on this other than to get the truth out of Titus because after you confront Ruby events pick up pace to the Tribunal, but the reality is they are a drug running gang and the reason they are spending all day chilling out in the cafe when the player encounters them is because with Ruby gone they have no idea what the gently caress to do. They aren't a militia at all, they're just a criminal gang that Evrart has an understanding with.
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Jul 16, 2022 21:03
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My only query about the sequel is that DE feels like a pretty complete manifesto and that manifesto is what makes it special (otherwise it's just a trivially easy point and click adventure game). Where do you go from there?
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Aug 2, 2022 19:42
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YggiDee posted:I just love how I talk to everyone in this game not because I think I'll get quests or loot or exp, I just want to hear what everyone has to say. My reward for talking is more talking. It's great. It's excellent synchronisation of story and gameplay because of course it makes sense that amnesiac Harry would just stumble through the streets having a conversation with every single person along the way trying to construct a basic understanding of reality.
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Aug 6, 2022 23:23
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Ersatz posted:I mean, are you role-playing as Harry, or as some sort of benevolent innocentic overseer of Harry's health and moral progress? It's both. The game starts by doing the Planescape Torment 'you are your memories, and this character has none' thing, but over the course of the game culminating in the final dream sequence more and more of Harry's memories are floating back and starting to re-form who this guy is.
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Aug 18, 2022 17:30
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I accepted that as the devs going 'we want you to do this sidequest content that isn't a direct line on the investigation, so we are just going to say that Harry doesn't get the idea to investigate this building until he's explored the south bank enough'
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Aug 25, 2022 21:51
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christmas boots posted:Thematically I think the idea is that the city itself is trying to tell Harry where she is, and the more intimately familiar Harry is with the city and the lives of the people who live in it, the easier it becomes for his spiritual antenna to pick up the message. Yeah but also more practically it's Harry going 'oh this is the one building I haven't looked in, it's probably here'.
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Aug 25, 2022 22:13
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Conceptualisation is just logic in a fancy dress
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Aug 25, 2022 22:39
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Orange Devil posted:Never heard of a broke artist doing anything *creative*. It's possible to miss a lot of stuff in this game, but I don't understand how anyone could possibly miss the art happening.
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Sep 7, 2022 10:01
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Losing the setting must be heartbreaking for them, but the absolute killer would be if the core RPG elements were patented. If not, maybe a spiritual successor one day. If so, that's endgame.
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Oct 2, 2022 22:01
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Mystic Mongol posted:You can't copyright game mechanics. You can copyright specific terms to refer to those mechanics, but no one can stop you from, say, making your own Collectable Card Game that's compatible with Fantasy Flight's award winning NetrunnerTM collectable card game. You absolutely can copyright game mechanics, it's just very difficult to get the patent and it doesn't take more than minor tweaks to get around the patent usually. A dialogue tree isn't patentable, but if behind the curtain of DE there's a specific and novel method of sorting and filtering dialogue options according to player stats then that could potentially be patentable. I don't think they've actually done that though.
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Oct 2, 2022 22:24
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Yeah I want to actually see some actual smoke before having the conversation about how it wouldn't be the first time some auteurs had a self-destrictive ego driven meltdown.
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Oct 3, 2022 10:38
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I mean given the silence it seems to me like the most likely explanation is that it turned out that the three original leads just weren't very good at leading a team when they weren't coming in with 80% of the writing already done from a decade of work. For there to be some nefarious slash-and-burn capitalist fund management going on they would have to represent some kind of major cost to the studio, but these were not big names on superstar salaries.
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Oct 3, 2022 20:22
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I'm still stuck on where they were between 'hugely influential' and 'a complete failure at everything they did until they made a video game'
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Oct 14, 2022 13:36
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Shoehead posted:This is the game that say Communism is failure, but still worth it. I could see that kind of thinking being applied to your artistic output too (because anything creative is built on possibly decades of gently caress ups and hard lessons, after all) It's also a game about a burnt out drunk achieving success through sheer talent despite having no idea where they are or what they are doing
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Oct 15, 2022 10:36
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That is basically your (bad) tutorial introduction to how thoughts work. While you are looking at the inventory screen don't forget to look closely at the inventory and notice that some of the stuff is just 'there' and some stuff needs to be put in one of your hands to give you a bonus.
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Nov 5, 2022 12:07
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The game has a smidgin of respect for any character who believes in something and wants to change the world according to that belief. Conversely it has pity/contempt for any character who professes to believe in something but only to mask their own failings or as an excluse to act in a way they want to (this includes Harry).
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Nov 5, 2022 23:33
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I disagree. Rene finding out that the war he reminisces over is still going because there's a communist out there who didn't lay down their arms and has been continuing to murder people long after he stopped fighting and settled into a grumpy acceptance that the world he knew is never coming back would result in an immediate and violent reaction. e: spoilers for the top of the page
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Nov 6, 2022 22:24
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Greaseman posted:Evrart is an interesting take on how someone materially pushing for positive progress might be an utterly repellant human being. The union is a faction full of people who might not condone everything Evrart gets up to, don't know about all of it, and are true believers in the cause. They are factually a union resisting the grip of a corporation which has hired war criminals to intimidate them, and the fact that we have to reconcile this with everything else is what makes it interesting. Eh, lots of the Union members you meet aren't true believers and are just going along on the basis that the De Claire's are their only option (because they murdered their opponents). The corp was also willing to make concessions and do a deal in the face of the strike as it has repeatedly done before and is resorting to war criminals because Evart is refusing to negotiate. Evart is an accelerationist and while the game is wistfully sympathetic to the dream of communism I don't think we are being invited to agree with his methods. I think 'Communists get power and immediately start shooting people' is part of the reason why 0.000000000000% of communism has ever been built, and the game is clear it doesn't have a solution to that other than hope and is sad about the whole thing.
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Nov 7, 2022 09:00
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Samovar posted:Operation Death Blow wasn't done by the Communists. The game is clear the Communists were very murder happy and war crimey, which is part of why the rest of the world forms an alliance to crush them. E: sorry I'll clarify that in the last two posts I'm referring to the in game Communists and their failure. I don't think there is a direct analogy to our history, my read of the revolution is that it's essentially a what if of the Russian Civil War and subsequent Soviet-Polish war, with the end instead being early-NATO intervening and breaking up the USSR in 1929. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 15:11
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pedro0930 posted:When you discuss the revolution with Joyce she mentioned that the communists shot a lot of people in the head (I forgot the number, but I think it's in the hundred of thousands, and the Coalition came in and shot millions). I don't know if these head shooting were the result of there being a huge civil war lasting years or the post revolution execution. I suppose there's might be at least some for the latter, as we get a glimpse of the execution site behind the Feld building. quote:YOU - "Did the communists and the anarchists shoot back?" 40 million people died in the Antecentenial revolution, so assuming that Joyce is rounding up everyone who died fighting the Communists and not people being randomly murdered then the Communists and Moralintern are responsible for roughly equal numbers of deaths. e: it's a big bit of the thematic significance of the Tribunal that lots of different factions have been pushing Revachol to a crisis, but the flashpoint itself is actually totally out of everyone's control and none of the power players could stop it even if they wanted.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:45
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No Dignity posted:Okay but what if Joyce is quoting Black Book of Communism numbers? Joyce is a fairly reliable info-dump on the player, she doesn't lie to you and she's open and self-reflective about her beliefs and biases. e: or to put another way, in addition to Joyce being the mirror of Evrart who is lying to you all the time, she's the embodiment of 'money doesn't lie to itself'. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 19:50
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My recollection of the last day is that you've basically stalled the crisis point and things are back to uneasy stasis? Freely admit I might have that wrong. e: but yes it's clear things have mostly gone Evrart's way and Wild Pines at-best are scrambling to come up with a plan to unfuck their situation.
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Nov 7, 2022 20:19
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Actually, it occurs to me that Evrart says something like "yeah if they come for the docks I have people personally loyal to me who are more heavily armed". It's possible that getting the Hardie Boys, who are more loyal to the union and Martinaise than to Evrart, mowed down isn't a tragically necessary ploy against Wild Pines, it is itself a feature. If you press Evrart on how he knows what you've been doing before you come tell him, he tells you his real wetwork team has been watching and also had Joyce bugged. The Hardies are totally disposable thugs who are there to draw everyone attention from the fact that Evrart has his own version of Wild Pines Mercs. Evrart doesn't sneer at Wild Pinces for hiring a bunch of racist murdering thugs, he sneers at them for the mistake of hiring foreign racist murdering thugs.
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Nov 7, 2022 20:52
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The game is explicit that Evrart is fine with having racists act as muscle for him, he's also fine with murdering/disappearing anyone who gets in his way. He's not morally outraged by the mercs at all because he knows he's perfectly happy to use similar tools, he's gleeful that Wild Pines have made a tactical error in their choice of agents that he can exploit. e: ^^ the mercs are there for the Hardies because the Hardies have been announcing to the world that they committed the murder.
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Nov 7, 2022 20:59
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I did misremember, at the end of the game Joyce is sailing off back to the board to tell them they need to back down and surrender the dock rather than escalate. Evrart has won and Harry has managed to avert a massacre. e: ^^ before the murder the mercs are hanging out in Martinaise trying to find out what's going on and under the control of the company. The Tribunal is them going off-mission. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 21:10
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Orange Devil posted:Wait, are you under the impression that the reason the mass murdering mercenaries explicitly sent in by capital to break a labour action were only pushed to resort to violence after one of their number got murdered? That is literally what happens in the game, yes. Sure they were willing to do unspeakable violence, but Wild Pines hired them to do security after the crime boss who murders his opponents stopped negotiating with them.
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Nov 7, 2022 21:15
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