[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

dead gay comedy forums posted:

I also feel that is very appropriate to elaborate here for Marxism thread purposes:

This is extremely interesting and right up my alley. Do you have any books to recommend on this topic?

# ¿ Jan 25, 2024 03:29

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 09:57

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

dead gay comedy forums posted:

Not my alley, but from the little I know of modern epistemology, anything by Thomas Kuhn, Feyerabend or Lakatos has a lot to do in taking down that crap. Lakatos, funnily enough, was a hardcore Stalinist.

Thank you! I'll see what they've got to say

# ¿ Jan 25, 2024 06:56

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

I thrive on psudoku intellectualism

# ¿ Feb 1, 2024 01:20

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

BillsPhoenix posted:

It's me. I'm rejecting it, but I'm trying, and failing to do it on empirical arguments, not ideologies.

"Free of ideology" doesn't exist hth

You're entire idea of trying to find empirical arguments is itself ideology

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 02:45

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

I found the discussion interesting, at least

# ¿ Feb 9, 2024 00:33

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

I think for that last one you use some kind of press

# ¿ Feb 9, 2024 01:10

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

BillsPhoenix posted:

I disagree therefore I don't exist. Make it a perma, who carez.

You're not as smart as you think, and would benefit from engaging others honestly. But it's your account and your choice!

# ¿ Feb 15, 2024 20:51

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

BillsPhoenix posted:

Marx was wrong. Capitalism defeated communism.

And there we have the apparent core of your thesis

# ¿ Feb 15, 2024 21:04

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

hubris.height posted:

on the upshot it created some good posts from the people itt that helped an unread fool like me understand a little better

This is why it's never wasted effort to engage imo. At least until the other person indicates they're the world's stupidest puppetmaster

# ¿ Feb 16, 2024 19:19

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

BillsPhoenix posted:

I'd like to be able to infer it myself, rather than be lead to the answer.

Sounds like you're saying that if anyone tries to teach you anything you will reflexively reject the points and seek counterexamples, purely out of a need to feel like you came to the answer without anyone's help.

The optimistic reading is that you've now positively identified the root problem and why you remain perpetually confused by everything. Step 2 is fixing it

# ¿ Feb 20, 2024 22:59

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Dreylad posted:

if he is an econ major then I get why there's that reflex.

Nah I get it too, I think it's an understandable reflex upon really fully seeing and accepting how much bullshit there actually is on all fronts at all times, in the US especially

But you gotta move past it somehow

# ¿ Feb 20, 2024 23:15

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

World's calmest flat earther bowing out of an astronomy conference with "agree to disagree, i guess"

# ¿ Feb 22, 2024 20:01

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:

mfers just dont know to read multiple nested independent clauses that may or may not be someone marx is quoting rather than something marx is saying, most likely a mixture of both (and you wont know which)

Thanks, German language!

# ¿ Feb 23, 2024 18:35

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Flournival Dixon posted:

bills for gods sake read capital, if you want to learn about marxism read capital

people will stop being mean to you if you read the loving book and come back with actual questions or comments about the thing itself

His problem isn't that he doesn't know the right information, it's that the entire way he processes the information and uses it is hosed. If he read Capital he'd be making up nonsense counterexamples every other paragraph while absorbing nothing, and close the book completely assured that he'd understood and conquered a failed ideology.

e: what 3 said

# ¿ Feb 23, 2024 20:49

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Son of Sorrow posted:

BP should be permitted to post imo. He's dumb and annoying and poorly educated but that's no different than anyone else in this forum.

He can post all he wants

# ¿ Feb 23, 2024 21:43

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

I was just speaking about the military as a whole, but yeah within the branches the Air Force or Marines would probably be on average the least fertile grounds. But on average, the military is by miles the only significant locus of power I can think of where a significant number of troops and junior officers have any prayer of switching sides in the US.

Depends how granular you wanna get, because I bet you'd find significant differences between specialties within the same branch. e.g. in the Air Force enlisted ranks a lot of your combat specialties are gonna be extremely hoorah and about as revolutionary as marine infantry, and MPs are cops, but the further you get from that the better your chances are going to be. They're still not gonna be great but the odds are much better in places like sheet metal shops and chow halls than say the pararescue barracks

Raskolnikov38 posted:

I think creating propaganda aimed at converting soldiers would be more productive than enlisting to organize cadres within it. what you'd want in a revolutionary situation is for the rank-and-file to side with the revolution or at least lay down their arms. trying to convert from within just seems like asking for a very long stay at leavenworth

Yeah this, 100%. There is absolutely no way you're going to go in and do any good yourself, the machine will change you instead. Best to let them decide for themselves if that's what they want to do. They'd have a better idea where to start anyway.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2024 07:13

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

i say swears online posted:

those chow halls used to be a lot more revolutionary when it was the military feeding the military instead of neoliberalized to contractors

god drat, lol :corsair:

# ¿ Feb 27, 2024 07:30

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

i say swears online posted:

i think this shift is extremely important

You're absolutely right. I was just suddenly hit with how much it's changed. I can't really trust my assumptions at all anymore lol.

But I think that underscores the importance of, if you're going to work at raising consciousness in the military, best to do it at arm's length. Just talk to them, esp friends/family.

Son of Thunderbeast has issued a correction as of 07:44 on Feb 27, 2024

# ¿ Feb 27, 2024 07:41

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

In an interesting coincidence, I just today got to this letter by Bobby Seale from The Black Panthers Speak, that addresses the topic from his perspective (and that of the party). I think it's a good model.

I can't find an online version to copy/paste so I've transcribed it (in full and uncensored) below.

Bobby Seale posted:

Black Soldiers as Revolutionaries to Overthrow the Ruling Class

This is the county jail, city prison, San Francisco, California. And this is Bobby Seale, the Chairman of the Black Panther Party of which Huey P. Newton is the Minister of Defense, and Eldridge Cleaver is the Minister of Information. I am presently incarcerated here as a political prisoner in the same manner that our Minister of Defense, Huey P. Newton, is incarcerated in another prison here in California known as C.M.C. (south of San Fracisco 200 miles). And I wanted to send a message from jail here as a political prisoner.

We are here in America, brothers, (Black G.I.'s, who this message is to), trying to rid ourselves of the oppressive conditions that we've been subjected to for 400 years. And now they have Black brothers with their lives on the line, dying and fighting a people who are only wanting for themselves, self-determination in their own homeland and to unify their country and unify their people. And the only reason that Black G.I.'s are over there, or Brown G.I.'s, or Red (Indian-American) G.I.'s, Chicanos, and even white G.I.'s, the only reason you're there is because the fascist, ruling class circles of America (the avaricious, big-time, businessmen, the big rich men; the demagogic, lying politicians, the misleading politicians who mislead and try to lie to the people) are the ones making fascists out of you brothers. And it's correct that the Vietnamese should defend themselves and defend their land and fight for the right to self-determination, because they have NEVER oppressed us. They have NEVER called us "friend of the family". They have NEVER done anything wrong to us. The leadership of the Vietnamese is that of heroic people. This is also true of the Vietnamese people who are heroic people, fighting for their right to self-determination.

And so, the same goes for Black people here in America living in wretched ghettos and oppression. We have been struggling for 400 years, as many of you Black brothers are well aware. I know you dream about home. But when you come home, come home and realize that you have a fight here, that we have the right to control our destinies in our Black community; as the Chicano people have a right to control their destinies in their Chicano community or areas and places where they live; as the American Indians have a right to control their destiny; as the poor, oppressed white people have a right to control their destiny (many poor, oppressed white people must realize that it's the ruling class). The Indian-Americans, and Black people in America are beginning to move more and more in opposition to the oppressive conditions that the SAME avaricious businessmen and demagogic, lying politicians create and maintain--that exploitation. The workers of this country are beginning to move more and more, day by day, step by step from a lower to a higher level in opposing the ruling class circles, because they (the ruling class circles) are the ones who keep the racism going. They are the one who keep people hating each other because of skin color, etc.

The Black Panther Party, brothers, does not fight racism with racism. There are no white people in the Black Panther Party but we do have alliances with the white radical student groups who have stood up in protest against that war for your sake and for all the G.I.'s sake. We wanted them back home. We wanted to bring them back home as a means to end that war, demanding and protesting that the G.I.'s come back home and the war end.

The Black brothers, Vietnam Black G.I.'s, must understand and feel desire to oppose oppression right here at home domestically. Oppose fascism. The cops occupy our community just like a foreign troop occupies territory. Just like, you are a foreign troop there in Vietnam, occupying territory at the directions of the fascist ruling class and their military leaders who are also a part of the fascist ruling class. Not at the will of the people of America are you there. You're there because the imperialist U.S. aggressors (and that's exactly what they are) have sent you there. And we'll be glad when you come back, because here you must fight the pigs who occupy our community. In every major city and metropolis throughout America police forces have been doubled, tripled, and quadrupled wherever Black people live; where the large populations of Chicano people live; where the large populat6ions of people who are protesting and opposing war, are protesting and opposing the poverty and the murder and brutality that's committed against Black people in the Black community. Wherever the case, these police forces have been tripled and quadrupled with machine guns, AR-15s (the same kinds of guns you brothers got and are carrying over there) .357 magnums (you can stand up and shoot 10 demonstrators with one bullet with a .357 or a .44 magnum) that these cops carry here.

They're not solving the problems of the people, the U.S. government, the local government, the federal government, and the city governments. All they're doing is putting money out for more arms. And now a state of DOMESTIC imperialism exists here to the extent that the genocide can begin to be committed tomorrow, if they decide.

We'll be glad when you come home. We oppose the war here, we say, "Power tot he People." We want all the people to move to have proletarian democracy--workers democracy (a real people's democracy), and not capitalistic, exploiting democracy for the minority ruling class. There are only 800 big, rich businessmen who control this imperialistic regime in America. There are numerous demagogic politicians, from the local government to the federal government. There are approximately half a million or more local police, some more millions of national guardsmen. But they are used against, not to protect the people. They're used to murder and to brutalize the people, such as at the National Democratic Convention back in August of 1968.

The numerous amounts of brutality that are going on, and you brothers haven't even heard about them. The political prisoners that Black Panther Party members have been made (We have over 50 political prisoners here.) all because the Ten Point Platform and Program of the Black Panther Party began to be implemented. And what was the Ten Point Platform and Program of the Black Panther Party?

From the very beginning of the Party the Ten Point Platform has always read: We want freedom. We want the right to determine our destiny in our own Black community. Number two: We want full employment for our people. Number three: We want the end to oppression and the exploitation of the Black community by the capitalists in our communities. Number four: We want decent housing fit for shelter of human beings. Five says: We want a decent education. It says we want decent education that teaches us about the true nature of this decadent American society, an education that teaches us our true history and our role in the present day society. And number six says: We want all Black men to be exempt from military service. That's what we demand here of this government. (We really want you home, brothers). Number seven says: We want an immediate end to police brutality and murder of Black people. The last two points of the Program covers our right to fair trial by peers as it says in the Constitution of the United States.

It's important Black brothers that we understand the need to come home. It's important that we understand that the Vietnamese people are only fighting for the right to self-determination in their land. It's important, brothers, that we understand it's the fascist ruling class circle who have you there, who got you fighting there. It's important, brothers, that you understand that your fight is really right here at home in America. So when you come back, you'll be fighting against the oppression that we've been subjected to for 400 years. So I will wind this statement up and probably, hopefully, send some more. Better yet, I th8ink I should say a few more things concerning Black G.I.'s and the history of this country.

In the Civil War when there was a fight between the North and the South, in that Civil War, 186,000 Black people enlisted in the military service. We were promised freedom, justice, and equality; and we never received it. During World War I there were over 350,000 Black Americans in World War I. And we were promised freedom, justice, and equality; and we never received it. Then there was the Korean War the fascist ruling class aggressors put together. And we fought there. Now, here it is again--another war against a people who are trying to fight for the right of their self-determination. They don't even promise you "freedom, justice, and equality" anymore. Kinda bad now, brothers.

If we would only begin to realize the necessity of not being a tool for the fascist aggressor! And that doesn't only go for Black G.I.'s. That goes for Mexican-American G.I.'s, Chicano brothers, rather; that goes for the Indian American G.I.'s and Chinese-American G.I.'s; and that goes for even the poor white American G.I.'s who have to understand. That goes for even the G.I.'s who have some humanistic understanding about a people's right to survive and a right to determine their own destiny in their own land, like the average human being who can understand that Black people have been oppressed for 400 years here in America--all G.I.'s. And the Chicano people are oppressed, and the Indian-Americans are oppressed.

You guys know that. Every last one of you know that. You cats come from off the block, you Black brothers. And I know you. You know me just as well as I know you. The many times we use to break off into parties and be fighting and carrying on. Some of you would be blowing joints, and drinking and carrying on and being sharp, trying to get you some clean clothes, and chasing them sisters out there. You ain't no different from other brothers; only we just turned political. We just turned political. We're being made political prisoners because we're standing up out there against this fascist ruling class, against those fascist, racist pigs who occupy our community like a foreign troop occupies territory. We're the same, but we're just in two different places. We should be here fighting here at home. They protest over there for the freedom of political prisoners. You should al be closer at protesting over there for the freedom of political prisoners in America.

Power to the people. Power to the people; that's what we say. Power to all the people. And get rid of the power, take the power away from the minority ruling class circles, the imperialists and fascists here in America. The same thing they're doing over there to the Vietnamese people, they're getting ready to upstep and do to the Black American people. The same thing; the same kind of weapons, vicious weapons. They have tanks; they have nerve gas and everything else prepared. And it's time that we understand and realize this. All the masses of the people and the G.I.'s and the people at home are the ones who have to protest the war, are the ones who have to protest the injustices right here at home.

So you brothers who are dreaming about coming back home, when you get back home, you're going to see that same oppression. They're going to promise you a job; but you're going to be out of a job. In some cases they're going to try to give some of you dishonorable discharges for one reason or another and tell you that you can't get a job when you get back. But all you have to do is tell him it wasn't no jobs here when you left. And that's why you got off into that thing anyway. You went into the service for the same reason I went into it at one time over 10 years ago, some fourteen years, now; 'cause it wasn't no jobs, it wasn't nothing to do, and you didn't have any money in your pocket and you was frustrated with your surroundings and basically your environment. That's the reason most of you brothers went in there. It was a way to get a chance to do something. And you feel you'd go in the Army and some guy'd sell you some insidious notion about being a man, and all that kind of crap. And you were already a man. You're a human being. . That's the first basis for being a man; it's being a human being, and not going out trying to prove how many colored peoples you can kill in a foreign land. That's not being a man; that's being a fascist. And that's what the fascist power structure does.

So to ALL Black American G.I.'s, it's very important that you understand the need to come home; the need to relate to the struggle here; the need for the people and us to get mobilized and to amass together to free the political prisoners; the need to fight for community control of police where the people will have control, not of the same police, but fire those in now and set up community control operations. The Breakfast for Children Programs. Understand that the demagogic politicians are lying. They’re lying on the Party. They've attacked the Party; they've attacked our offices. And in some cases we've had to defend ourselves with weapons because we vowed that we would stand and defend ourselves, to defend our people and teach our people the correct methods to resist the pig power structure here in America, the fascist ruling class, the exploiters. That's what they are--oppressors.

So, power to the people, brothers. And please come on home, brothers. And when you get home, we'll be waiting for you.

BOBBY SEALE
CHAIRMAN
BLACK PANTHER PARTY
--The Black Panther, September 20, 1969

The thing that stands out the most to me is the strong underlying heartbeat of solidarity and empathy and love that resonates through every word. He never loses sight of it (nor do any of the other Panthers), or the humanity of his intended audience (Black US soldiers--but also others, including white soldiers who know what's up). He makes sure to keep the true common enemy in focus at all times.

Son of Thunderbeast has issued a correction as of 02:25 on Feb 28, 2024

# ¿ Feb 28, 2024 02:16

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Brain Candy posted:

why is it a good model? you like it, cool, but why would it be effective? why would it be now? why wasn't it then?

Depends on what you mean by "effective" because that can mean a whole lot of things at a whole lot of scales.

Did this letter cause an uprising in the US military? Did it create communism? Of course not, and it would be silly to expect that, or argue that it should have to, to be considered effective. Of course it wouldn't be "effective" in this sense, in any era.

Did it sway the hearts and minds of soldiers who may have been harboring doubts or been coming to the same conclusions on their own? Maybe prompt some of them to look into socialism on their own, or look into a local BPP chapter to see how they could help, or otherwise raise consciousness? I guarantee it did. And to me, that's effective.

I shared the letter as an example of the type of rhetoric that would be best if one wanted to talk to people in the military for the purposes of propaganda/conversion. In that sense, I say it was effective then, and now.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2024 07:05

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Is crossing someone up anti-revolutionary?

(it's real)

# ¿ Feb 28, 2024 22:22

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Flournival Dixon posted:

it's still the only widespread mode of anti-capitalist thought in the nation.

That's because it's not a threat

# ¿ Feb 28, 2024 23:59

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

If you have a coat, the use value of the second one is lower because you're already wearing one. QED theoryailures

# ¿ Mar 5, 2024 21:04

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

I've found this discussion valuable, even with the anticoats. People you talk to about these things are sometimes going to land on similarly silly-sounding counterarguments or hypotheticals, so it's useful to know that no matter how exotic the example, it's still just mud pies

# ¿ Mar 7, 2024 23:27

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Perhaps an anti-coat has a negative use value, that is, its existence reduces the use value of a regular coat. If you were to combine an anti-coat and a coat, their use values would annihilate into something with no use value.

# ¿ Mar 8, 2024 02:44

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Homeless Friend posted:

I’m just wondering if marx ever considered if it wasnt just the capitalist, but also the workers linen their pockets

# ¿ Mar 8, 2024 05:22

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Halser posted:

I, for one, hope that Bills continues to shitpost here so we can get more of this

# ¿ Mar 8, 2024 20:33

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

dead gay comedy forums posted:

hell yea. ty ferrinus

# ¿ Mar 10, 2024 01:45

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

A decent elevator pitch, if your elevator breaks down for a couple hours

# ¿ Mar 11, 2024 15:53

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

mila kunis posted:

I think despite being a stupid moron with bad intentions, billsphoenix has been a net boon to this thread. That's dialectics

# ¿ Mar 12, 2024 23:24

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Al! posted:

i put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

# ¿ Mar 20, 2024 01:59

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

lumpentroll posted:

anyway trump ftw

This is what Marx calls praxis

# ¿ Mar 21, 2024 03:09

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

AFancyQuestionMark posted:

The problems it's supposed to solve are worker alienation from government and excessive beurocratism. There is a reason Lenin once called the soviets "the purest form of democracy ever to exist".

I am asking the people of this thread, which are usually familiar with scholarship and stuff, if this is something that's been studied/discussed.

I'm also v interested in this topic so +1 to this

# ¿ Apr 7, 2024 16:45

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Bald Stalin posted:

Does Marxism point to the big bang or a simulation or both or something else?

Something else, i would say

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 05:57

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

mawarannahr posted:

At the beginning there was only Hegel. Marx cut his balls off. They fell into the ocean and became Lenin and Stalin. The rest is history.

# ¿ Apr 16, 2024 04:33

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Commodity fetishism came up in a conversation last night and i wanted to double check my understanding/the example i gave. I brought up the brain geniouses who protest companies going "woke" by filming themselves destroying the company's products that they already paid for and own (shoes, keurig, etc), as though destroying the commodity itself had any effect outside of the plain fact that they were destroying their own personal property.

I contrasted this with e.g. destroying a shipment of shoes before they get to the store, or even before they leave the factory, or somehow preventing the materials from being assembled in the first place, all of which would have an actual material effect on the target of their ire.

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 00:44

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Halser posted:

Being bald is praxis

Lenin would agree

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 00:00

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 09:57

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

dead gay comedy forums posted:

Commodity fetishism writeup

Outstanding breakdown, thank you! I def feel like I have a better grasp of commodity fetishism, where it comes from, and its effects.

The point about objects ruling the rulers (oranges example) is one that's always stuck with me, because even when I was totally ignorant of anything outside of the typical American political landscape, I still felt like The Market was spoken about and treated like a deity, what with trusting the invisible hand and all. At the time it was coming from a protestant POV, since I interpreted this as idolatry, which I guess wasn't necessarily wrong per se, just using a framework that was insufficient to explain anything further than that.

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 21:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat