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Colonel Cool posted:We should not cede that ground to them. Also, there is no "we" here. You aren't on our side. You're "them" in this scenario because you both agree that trans women don't belong in women's spaces.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:24
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Who What Now posted:Also, there is no "we" here. You aren't on our side. You're "them" in this scenario because you both agree that trans women don't belong in women's spaces. Should trans women not on HRT be permitted to compete in elite level women's sporting events?
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Apr 17, 2022 14:28
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look, colonel cool loves trans people, yes they are advocating for an argument that is also being used to justify exclusion of ALL trans people, specifically trans women, from spaces they need to use and access to live anything remotely resembling a normal, decent, humane life, but cool says they care about them
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Apr 17, 2022 14:28
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Colonel Cool posted:Should trans women not on HRT be permitted to compete in elite level women's sporting events? are you dense or something, it's already been explained to you this is based on the rules set forth by organisations regulating said sporting events
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Apr 17, 2022 14:30
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Colonel Cool posted:Should trans women not on HRT be permitted to compete in elite level women's sporting events? Yes. Now let's see if you're actually consistent, should people with strange genetics like Michael Phelps who only produces half the lactic acid as every other athlete in the pool be allowed to compete? Because he is actually dominating sports which no trans woman is currently doing.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:31
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Ash Crimson posted:are you dense or something, it's already been explained to you this is based on the rules set forth by organisations regulating said sporting events I refuse to believe that people don't understand the point of the hypothetical, which is pointing out that gender identity is not the sole criteria for having access to women's sports.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:32
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Colonel Cool posted:I refuse to believe that people don't understand the point of the hypothetical, which is pointing out that gender identity is not the sole criteria for having access to women's sports. i refuse to believe you're unable to process the information already explained to you, multiple times, by people who are nicer and kinder and more diplomatic than me, so it must be an ideological reason that prevents you from accepting the fact that many organisations already have policies about trans and intersex women.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:34
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Every day we don't make a mandatory Lefties League for professional baseball is a day sports are besmirched.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:34
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Colonel Cool posted:I refuse to believe that people don't understand the point of the hypothetical, which is pointing out that gender identity is not the sole criteria for having access to women's sports. There's a sneaky rhetorical trick here. Currently, regulators are seeking to ban all trans women from all women's and girls' sports. So you ask a leading question about some trans women in the most highly-regulated sports, a space with so few trans women that they are a rounding error, based on unsubstantiated speculation that someday that might change. People are calling you out on having the same views as TERFs because you are using their argumentation tactics.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:35
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Colonel Cool posted:I refuse to believe that people don't understand the point of the hypothetical, which is pointing out that gender identity is not the sole criteria for having access to women's sports. i could tweak this comment by one word and it'd be indistinguishable from what anti-trans advocates are asking for; a wholesale ban/exclusion of trans women from large parts of society quote:I refuse to believe that people don't understand the point of the hypothetical, which is pointing out that gender identity is not the sole criteria for having access to women's spaces. What is the functional difference between this and the argument of an anti-trans bigot? Are we supposed to believe that just because you don't personally dislike trans people, but are still advocating arguments that functionally lead to the banning of them, that you are in some way neutral or not anti-trans?
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Apr 17, 2022 14:36
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Ash Crimson posted:i could tweak this comment by one word and it'd be indistinguishable from what anti-trans advocates are asking for; a wholesale ban/exclusion of trans women from large parts of society Women's spaces are one thing but CC just cares so much about the holy sanctity of fairness in competition, you see. Nothing is more important to him.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:39
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Who What Now posted:Yes. Now let's see if you're actually consistent, should people with strange genetics like Michael Phelps who only produces half the lactic acid as every other athlete in the pool be allowed to compete? Because he is actually dominating sports which no trans woman is currently doing. Yes. Because we segregate sports by sex (and sometimes weight), not by genetic abnormalities, and it seems to work pretty well most of the time. If we lived in a world where 1% of the population was born with flippers then I think it would be a pretty fair argument to say that they should be competing in a separate swimming division than the humans without flippers. And also, answering yes to my hypothetical is why I say the left has a credibility and optics problem on this issue.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:39
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Colonel Cool posted:Yes. Because we segregate sports by sex (and sometimes weight), not by genetic abnormalities, and it seems to work pretty well most of the time. If we lived in a world where 1% of the population was born with flippers then I think it would be a pretty fair argument to say that they should be competing in a separate swimming division than the humans without flippers. So you don't actually care about sports, you just don't want trans women to be treated as women. Nothing else really needs to be said.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:40
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Cease to Hope posted:There's a sneaky rhetorical trick here. Currently, regulators are seeking to ban all trans women from all women's and girls' sports. So you ask a leading question about some trans women in the most highly-regulated sports, a space with so few trans women that they are a rounding error, based on unsubstantiated speculation that someday that might change. And those regulators are assholes. People can call me out for whatever they want. You know nothing about me.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:41
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Colonel Cool posted:And those regulators are assholes. People can call me out for whatever they want. You know nothing about me. What I do know is that you're making the same arguments as them. If you find that troubling, the best thing to do would be to reconsider your arguments. It's a credibility problem for you that you are on the same side and making the same arguments as the TERFs and conservatives.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:42
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Colonel Cool posted:And those regulators are assholes. People can call me out for whatever they want. You know nothing about me. people are calling you out for making the same arguments terfs are making and rather than acknowledge it, you're digging down because this is purely a philisophical issue for you and not one about how you live your life
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Apr 17, 2022 14:43
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if you think issue of gender identity not being enough to justify trans women competing in women's sports, ignoring the fact that many organisations already require some degree of hrt, then what is any reasonable person supposed to think your position on women's spaces and the inclusion of trans women in them is going to be?
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Apr 17, 2022 14:46
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Ash Crimson posted:if you think issue of gender identity not being enough to justify trans women competing in women's sports, ignoring the fact that many organisations already require some degree of hrt, then what is any reasonable person supposed to think your position on women's spaces and the inclusion of trans women in them is going to be? I didn't say trans women not on HRT competing in elite level women's sports is an issue that's happening. One of the reasons it's not happening is because people who aren't Who What Now are setting the regulations for those organizations. I think that's a good thing and we should stay the course on that one.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:48
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If you're going to pretend that trans women who are not on HRT are an issue in high-level women's sports, you should be required to name one. Because, again, you have that completely nonexistent bogeywoman being used to harass and exclude actual women in the real world like Lia Thomas and Caster Semenya. Don't mistake a South Park episode for real life. Colonel Cool posted:I didn't say trans women not on HRT competing in elite level women's sports is an issue that's happening. People are treating you like you believe it's an issue that happening because you keep bringing it up like it's an issue that's happening. Colonel Cool posted:Should non-transitioning trans women compete in women's divisions? Genuine question. Colonel Cool posted:Should trans women not on HRT be allowed to participate in college+ level women's sports? Colonel Cool posted:And no. I don't think a non-transitioning trans woman should be allowed to participate in high level women's sports, assuming it's a sport where biological advantages are substantially important. Colonel Cool posted:Should trans women not on HRT be permitted to compete in elite level women's sporting events? Colonel Cool posted:And also, answering yes to my hypothetical is why I say the left has a credibility and optics problem on this issue. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 14:49
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In 2001, the American government began torturing people. Because the American people did not see themselves as a nation of torturers, the government called it enhanced interrogation. Waterboarding was the most notorious technique. Prior to 2001, bastions of liberal democracy like the New York Times unequivocally called waterboarding torture. But when the administration started doing it, the paper accepted their framing that there was a question. They hosted Op Eds, published both sides of the argument, and let the debate play out. All the while, people were being tortured. To achieve their ends, the people doing the torture didn’t need to win the argument, they just needed to convince everyone there was a debate. As long as they had that cover, they could keep doing terrible harm. The reason there is a national debate about trans kid athletes is because the bigots want there to be one. When you weigh the hypothetical future harms to cis women against the present real harms to trans kids, you are doing their work for them.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:55
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Cease to Hope posted:People are treating you like you believe it's an issue that happening because you keep bringing it up like it's an issue that's happening. Because people keep implying or stating that "trans women are women" is a sufficient argument on the entire subject, regardless of any level of advantage that may exist. Which I think is crazy. Hence the outrageous hypothetical to prove that other criteria are required.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:56
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Colonel Cool posted:Because people keep implying or stating that "trans women are women" is a sufficient argument on the entire subject, regardless of any level of advantage that may exist. Which I think is crazy. Hence the outrageous hypothetical to prove that other criteria are required. You keep bringing up the same "outrageous hypothetical" as mainstream anti-trans bigots.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:58
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It's amazing we need to have a just asking questions idiot keep trolling a thread, and it be considered ok because the head mod wants to think that debate and evading points is valid in a thread about trans people This is loving disgusting and the same transphobic garbage that happens on Facebook and reddit, there's absolutely no reason that we need to have someone here that wants to be that rear end in a top hat and do quiet transphobia in order to harass others and just be a dick There's no debate here, there's absolutely no evidence or even backing up of anything, just evading direct questions and moving goalposts. It's toxic garbage (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 14:59
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Cease to Hope posted:You keep bringing up the same "outrageous hypothetical" as mainstream anti-trans bigots. And it keeps getting people to say that actually, yes, it should be allowed, no level of sex based competitive advantage is too much. Which I think is crazy and I think most people would think is crazy. It seems like a pretty useful hypothetical to me.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:02
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Colonel Cool posted:Which I think is crazy and I think most people would think is crazy. Huh, heteronormative ideas are popular in a society dominated by heteronormative ideas, go figure.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:04
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Colonel Cool posted:And it keeps getting people to say that actually, yes, it should be allowed, no level of sex based competitive advantage is too much. Which I think is crazy and I think most people would think is crazy. It seems like a pretty useful hypothetical to me. You don't give a poo poo about advantages. E: Colonel Cool posted:You know nothing about me. We know for a fact you speak in nothing but TERF talking points. I have now provided more data than you ever will to back up your hypotheticals. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 15:09
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Colonel Cool posted:And it keeps getting people to say that actually, yes, it should be allowed, no level of sex based competitive advantage is too much. Do you have any evidence that women on HRT have any advantage at all, aside from the two studies you've cited that explicitly say that they are not conclusive evidence that women on HRT have any advantage? If not, what does "competitive advantage" have to do with the discussion?
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Apr 17, 2022 15:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:idk i think you should go read up on poo poo on your own rather than asking dumbass questions here because all of your posts so far sound stupid as gently caress and have nothing to do with the thread topic. The obvious solution is just give prisoners piles of contraceptives because you will never, ever stop prisoners from loving it's about time we ban trans women from participating in the prison rodeos imo
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Apr 17, 2022 15:21
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Hell we have people in this very thread that explained how going on her actually made them weaker and it harder to work out!!!! But that is all false and not true information and can't be taken into account to satisfy the terf
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Apr 17, 2022 15:22
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Cease to Hope posted:Do you have any evidence that women on HRT have any advantage at all, aside from the two studies you've cited that explicitly say that they are not conclusive evidence that women on HRT have any advantage? We're going around in circles. I think the studies do provide some evidence. What they don't provide is incontrovertible proof. Which I don't think is particularly damning when they say a major limitation of the study is that there's a lack of data on the exact subject in question because it hasn't been studied very well yet. I think I am comfortable saying that I find it dubious that we can show a level of advantage persisting after some time on HRT in some areas in both untrained and physically fit trans women, but it definitely won't apply to trans athletes specifically when more data does become available. But, I could be wrong!
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Apr 17, 2022 15:31
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Hell we have people in this very thread that explained how going on her actually made them weaker and it harder to work out!!!! It's not controversial to say that going on HRT will result in performance degradation for trans women. The question is if that level of degradation is sufficient to equalize the playing field with cis women.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:33
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Colonel Cool posted:And it keeps getting people to say that actually, yes, it should be allowed, no level of sex based competitive advantage is too much. Which I think is crazy and I think most people would think is crazy. It seems like a pretty useful hypothetical to me. sports aren't fair and they self-select at high levels for people that have the genetic attributes that allow them (along with hard work, training, & skill) to succeed at them. i think it's probably reasonable to hypothesize that mtf peopel have some sort of physical advantage conferred by going through puberty as a male but there is no evidence that it would overshadow all the other elements that go in to making a successful athlete in most sports. you're talking abotu blanket bans across all levels of sports for a hypothetical genetic outlier that would qualify as an elite athlete and then also happen to be trans it's most likely safe to let the .2% of the population that is trans compete and be terrible at sports like the vast majority of everyone else if they want
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Apr 17, 2022 15:33
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jarofpiss posted:you're talking abotu blanket bans across all levels of sports for a hypothetical genetic outlier that would qualify as an elite athlete and then also happen to be trans Uh, no I'm not.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:35
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Colonel Cool posted:And those regulators are assholes. People can call me out for whatever they want. You know nothing about me. You're a bigot and it's insane that you haven't been kicked out of here yet, a functioning moderation team would have bounced you dozens of repetitive, say-nothing, dance around the point posts ago. gently caress you.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:37
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Hell we have people in this very thread that explained how going on her actually made them weaker and it harder to work out!!!! i don't trust anyone in d&d about working out or sports Colonel Cool posted:Uh, no I'm not. i only read the first few of your posts and the one i replied to. what sports do you think trans women should be banned form?
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Apr 17, 2022 15:38
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Colonel Cool posted:We're going around in circles. Which specific studies? Because the only one you quoted says the exact opposite of what you're claiming.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:41
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Colonel Cool posted:It's not controversial to say that going on HRT will result in performance degradation for trans women. The question is if that level of degradation is sufficient to equalize the playing field with cis women. you're generalizing talking about blanket sports and performance what does any of this mean
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Apr 17, 2022 15:41
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jarofpiss posted:i don't trust anyone in d&d about working out or sports Nothing high school level or lower, no matter what. Above that, none currently, with the potential for "some" depending on what the eventual data shows, what the experts in the field decide, and what our society eventually decides our philosophical stance on unfairness is.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:41
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Who What Now posted:Which specific studies? Because the only one you quoted says the exact opposite of what you're claiming. So it's saying that trans women definitely for sure have no level of competitive advantage in any physical area whatsoever and the subject doesn't need to be studied any further?
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Apr 17, 2022 15:42
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Koos running through the thread probating everyone who's upset by bigots being given free range to spout whatever nonsense they want no matter who it hurts or how hateful it is, as long as they include capitalization and paragraphs. You're a loving disgrace, Koos, not waiting til Friday, there's my feedback. This is a failure, and you're a bigot for encouraging and allowing it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 15:45
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