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Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. Can you show us some of these examples? You have 9 'overs' in your post. So you should be able to show us, at minimum, 10 examples of this, right?
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Apr 7, 2022 16:00
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How are u posted:It seems I mainly agree with you in practice, but not in the theory. If some time down the line in the future we end up in a situation where, say, the entire USWNT is trans or every single woman we send to the Olympics is trans, you would say "that's fine, there's absolutely nothing worth looking at here" ? If it's not something you expect to happen and not a problem that needs to be solved then what is the point of theorizing about it, other than attacking trans people?
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Apr 7, 2022 17:41
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Borscht posted:I'm having trouble parsing that. If you are aware of evidence that supports this, please post it, rather than just alluding to it and then expecting people to make arguments against a position which you have not actually stated, using data you have not shown anyone. I would love to engage with what you're saying, but you have to actually say it first, is all.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:33
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Borscht posted:Because there are far fewer trans women athletes than cis women athletes. So they have an intrinsic, systemic, serious advantage, but it hasn't been shown in real world examples yet because it's so rare that it hasn't actually happened yet, ever? I do not think that makes sense. If they have such an advantage it would have appeared and be measurable at this point. No such advantage exists.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:10
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Aginor posted:Hot take. Trans athletes should not be allowed to take part in gender specific sports. Lia Thomas, for example, is only just transitioning. She is built like a male swimmer. She needs time to go through her transition and then once that's done she should be allowed to compete as much as she wants. But, does anyone possibly see the disparity? Transitioning women cant compete in men's sports, whereas transitioning men compete in women's sport and they overtake and it becomes more important than women's leagues. Takes away from what women are achieving. Can you show any examples of them "overtaking" women's sports? Can you show an example of it taking away from what women are achieving? It is not ok to say things like this without providing evidence for it. These are deeply bigoted and offensive things you have just said and I don't think it's right for you to come in here and plop them here without a single shred of backup for your beliefs. Giving these views a platform and space to be spoken plainly is harmful and offensive to trans people. This needs to stop immediately.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:20
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Aginor posted:Hate the "cis" tag on peoples gender. Seems very negative. We are questioning you, and we're asking you to provide evidence of your belief that she has an advantage. Why are you ignoring us when we ask you for evidence of your claims? We'd like to engage with them further. Can you show us why you believe these things? In what race has she had an unfair advantage? What was that advantage? Please be specific.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:26
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Aginor posted:Get a loving grip! You're basically saying its not okay to have a different opinion. As soon as you say you don't agree with anything regarding trans it deeply bigoted. Its not harmful to trans people in the slightest. If you look at my pro-nouns I'm very positive. I just don't think either direction should be competing until the research is greater. Is that bigotted? No, it is harmful. You're coming in here and spouting a bigoted opinion about trans people without any evidence of backup to that opinion in the slightest. You're coming in here and saying the opposite of what trans people and the doctors who care for them say, and the things you're saying are part of arguments used to exclude them from society. Using the right pronouns doesn't make it ok for you to argue against trans people from being included. You've made claims, back them up. That's a very simple ask, isn't it?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:29
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Aginor posted:Can I ask how many of you are trans or transitioning? Just so I can get a read of the room? That's none of your business.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:31
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Aginor posted:Why? We're talking about it. We should be honest with each other. No? Stop asking people what shape their genitals are, it is very weird and creepy.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:36
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Aginor posted:I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy. This is, again, deeply offensive and bigoted. You have no reason to be comparing a trans woman competing in a swim meet, to you wrestling brock lesnar. That is extremely not okay. Like what the gently caress. Aginor posted:Is that what I asked? You're asking people to reveal deeply personal information about their bodies, including the shape of their genitals, as though it has relevance to the argument. It does not, and you should not ask people poo poo like that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 7, 2022 22:40
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Aginor posted:Why not though? Explain to me? Comparing trans women to Brock Lesnar is loving disgusting for extremely obvious reasons. It's also extremely wrong on many levels such as the fact that Brock Lesnar is well known to use ped's constantly. You're saying that a mtf trans woman has that level of advantage over the people she is competing with. That's deeply offensive as well and you shouldn't be allowed to say such things without even attempting to back it up. I have repeatedly asked you for evidence of this claim. You have ignored that request repeatedly.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:48
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Aginor posted:Honestly, I've hit a point with you where you are gross. You have made some terrible remarks and insinuated I've asked some personal questioned which I have not. Not sure who you are but your point is moot. Not everyone is out to get you but stop accusing people of somehow sexually harrassing you. It's concerning that's your go to move. You have made assertions about trans athletes. Please back them up. You are now attempting to tone police your way out of backing up your claims. Please stop doing that and provide evidence for your claim that trans women have an intrinsic and serious advantage over their cis competitors, to the point that it is as if you had to fight Brock Lesnar. My tone in this post has been neutral, so it should be safe for you to respond to 
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Apr 7, 2022 22:54
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Aginor posted:What is your actually problem? You have accused me of asking about your genitals and not you're saying I've compared all trans women to Brock Lesnar? Are you that loving stupid? Please provide evidence for your claim that cis women competing against a trans woman is akin to you having to compete with Brock lesnar. You seem to be somehow not seeing it every time I ask so I figured I should just ask until you see it, since I'm sure it's just an honest mistake
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Apr 7, 2022 22:57
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Aginor posted:Tell me when I aksed about your genitals? Asking who is trans is inappropriate and invasive. Someone telling you whether they are mtf or ftm includes deeply personal information about their bodies that you have no right to and would be inappropriate to ask of anyone, not just trans people. Now that that's settled can you please provide proof of your claim that cis women having to compete alongside trans women is comparable to you having to compete with Brock Lesnar?
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Apr 7, 2022 23:01
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. Could you please give us the names of the people you are talking about? You were asked to provide at least 9 examples by the moderator of this forum. Where are your 9 examples? You have given zero so far.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:36
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. idgaf if I eat a probe for saying it, this needs to be said in this thread, you should be loving banned for this post. garbage like you has no place here and you should leave and never come back. gently caress you, and gently caress anyone who defends you.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:46
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I think that we need to talk about how we talk about trans people here and a thread about that would be a lot more productive than a thread about trans athletes right now. Trans people deserve better than threads like this, where the people who hate them speak their ugly views loud and clear. It's great that those people are getting punished and I know that mods can't read threads 24/7 and simply aren't always on to take immediate action. But we can do better, and this website - specifically dnd - can be better at having these discussions than anywhere else on the internet if we can work it out. If any posters would like to discuss what an op for a thread like that would look like dm me and let's put some effort into that. I don't know if I would feel right being the only one making such a thing due to the nature of the topic but I really think it is a discussion worth having.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:08
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Koos Group posted:Someone could make a post like that, yes, and I think the debunking that would follow would be valuable, particularly as pseudoscientific racism has been on the rise in the last decade on the internet. Then if they repeated their claims without rigorously addressing the arguments made against them, which presumably they could not, they would be punished for bad faith. I disagree with the idea that this hasn't produced profoundly bad results. The policies thus far have allowed people to repeatedly and openly make bigoted statements. If they had not come back to the thread they wouldn't have been punished for those statements at all. They were punished not for their bigotry but for breaking a decorum rule about posting sources. This is an important difference. A trans person seeing this will, correctly, notice that you avoided punishing them for being a bigot towards trans people. You chose to punish them not for that but for how rude they were as they did it, or for not supplying evidence of their claims as though there were evidence that could have justified those posts. There is not, and we all know it.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:30
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Trollologist posted:Holy poo poo, calm down. I'm all for rights and personhood and respecting another human's journey of self acceptance, but the sheer extremes that are being used in regards to what amounts to a bad faith troll shitposter, take a deep breath. gently caress. No. Telling people 'if you don't like it, leave' because they want something to be better is lazy and reductive and it's something people say when they know they're on the wrong side of things and simply want the people they're arguing with the shut up and let them have what they want. This type of rhetoric has no place in these types of discussions.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:10
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Kalit posted:So….I’m confused. At first, when Koos took over as moderation and it was announced positions would not be moderated, a lot of people were excited. But now, when the possibility of a naive person who read some bullshit headline about transgenders in sports come up, that support is suddenly flipped into something akin to “ban immediately”? It's really not in question. It's obvious to everyone. When someone comes into a thread making obviously false claims which target trans people for exclusion, erasure or whatever else, they have already achieved their goal of causing harm to trans people. They have gotten what they wanted already. They have no intention to provide proof, evidence, or anything to back up what they've said. They've *all* been in bad faith, and not one of them has provided a single thing to back up any of the bigoted things they said. Despite that, it took multiple posts/days to punish all of them and here comes yet another bad faith poster to push anti-trans bullshit. Yes, this is a topic which deserves a hair trigger. Trans people should not have to deal with this. There is not some grand, complex case of how to differentiate a transphobe from a not transphobe. It's obvious as hell.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:31
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Trollologist posted:You're right! We need to integrate genders in sports! And weight classes in fighting! Everyone is the same! No more Men & women's divisions, just sports! Want to watch a 5'7" 125 lb woman go up against a 275lb 6'4" man, well, sports are sports! Separate but equal is bad. so you're saying that while it's an obvious strawman, it's true, and you felt it was appropriate to post here? It wasn't. It wasn't appropriate at all. At what point in the journey of transitioning does a trans person have an advantage? That is not true, and is a harmful and bigoted lie. You have just repeated it as if it is true. Can you provide evidence that it is true? Posting a gross picture from south park does not make or prove your point, it's just loving disgusting and you shouldn't do that. KOOS: this is another obvious example of a poster who deserves to be instantly, and severely, punished for posting what they posted. There is no ambiguity here: this is extremely hosed up transphobia. No debate is necessary. We do not need another post from them. This is loving gross.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:13
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Trollologist posted:That there is a point in every MTF Transition where they're just a boy/man saying "I'm a woman". It's the first step. That poo poo needs to be said by the trans community. it's the meeting in the middle. It is okay because it's directly relevant. You have a history of being bigoted against trans people and here you are again being bigoted against trans people. You know this is nonsense, and that there are zero examples of what you're talking about. You were just using it as an excuse to post that horrible bullshit from south park. You're a hateful bigot. gently caress you. Get Banned.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:32
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That's also obviously someone's alt troll account, couldn't really be any more obvious. I don't think someone like that should be posting here on any account.
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Apr 10, 2022 04:20
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Fluffdaddy posted:Because trans men are men and trans women are women. There is really no debate to be had. Sports being used as a metric of "what is fair or not fair" is a smoke screen for transphobia, even if the person is sincerely having doubts. Fluffdaddy posted:I guess I come from the mindset that minorities are not here to educate their oppressors. That's a lot of unfair emotional labor. Thank you, yes, these sort of unequivocal statements and actions are good, I appreciate you.
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Apr 10, 2022 14:47
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Dog King posted:The data generally indicates MtF athletes do have an advantage, even on hormone therapy. Different studies show different levels of advantage, but some advantage is always almost always conferred. What data indicates this? Apologies if I missed it.
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Apr 15, 2022 19:37
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Dog King posted:No you're good, I hadn't posted it in the thread before because it's doesn't matter for the point I'm making. Here are the two most recent reviews of I know of: I think it's important that we be careful about saying stuff like "data shows mtf athletes have an advantage". That's strong language for something without strong support, and the statement 'mtf athletes have an inherent advantage' is used to harm trans people by arguing for their exclusion. I don't think this data supports what you said.
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Apr 15, 2022 21:47
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mycophobia posted:i'm trying to understand what the question really means. the subgroups of cis women and trans women would have to have some different relationship to the main group of women, right? otherwise why the distinctions? what does it mean to be a woman irrespective of being cis or trans? the question you're insisting on, currently, means nothing to me A woman is any person who considers themselves to be a woman. A man is any person who considers themselves to be a man.
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Apr 16, 2022 04:56
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mycophobia posted:okay, what does it mean to consider yourself to be a woman or a man? I'm not sure what to do with this question. It is a very straightforward statement which needs no further explanation.
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Apr 16, 2022 06:17
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woozy pawsies posted:Asking to define what a women is in a thread about sports which has “men” and “women” divisions is probably a good question to ask. It’s even talked about in the bbm article. It’s colloquial definition and classification is assumed in the studies posted. “Women are women” is a meaningless statement that doesn’t help clear anything up or add to the discussion. But go ahead and assume malice and hate for anyone that could possibly disagree with you on a topic, even if the disagreement is loving semantics. the question has been answered very simply and does not need further discussion. A woman is a person who considers themselves to be a woman. A man is someone who considers themselves to be a man. If you cannot accept those definitions then you should not be discussing this topic with people who do. Not accepting those definitions is the baseline, the core of what it is to be a transphobe. It's not 'assuming malice', it's calling a spade a spade.
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Apr 16, 2022 16:53
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woozy pawsies posted:I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? Questions like these are offensive because they act like this is a reasonable scenario which could potentially happen with a real trans person. It's not. This is the text equivalent of dropping that image from south park that guy did earlier in the thread, and it's equally offensive.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:19
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Gumball Gumption posted:Probably not but that wouldn't happen, hasn't happened, and is a weird hypothetical compared to the real world situation so like, who gives a gently caress? Why do people constantly need to debate stupid insane hypotheticals that don't happen when they have real world events about the real laws people are attempting to pass? The question people are really asking is when they do this is, "but aren't my bigoted attitudes towards these people a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle justified? hmm? a bit? a wee bit?" and it deserves the same response that we'd give if it was a guy 'just asking questions' about whether a nonwhite person has a soul or something like that.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:28
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woozy pawsies posted:So part of the reason I asked this is because I used your definition of "A woman is a person who considers themselves to be a woman." by saying " I started to consider myself a woman" and everyone has shown backlash to that. If things were so simple, it would be an easy hypothetical to answer. no it isn't? quote:
This isn't like your scenario of "what if the night before a competition someone decided they're a girl" at all. However the last sentence here talks about her being afraid of people like you, using her story in exactly the way you have here.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:34
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woozy pawsies posted:I think trans people should compete in sports in the division of their choosing. Also keep reading, she competed well after privately coming out. okay? congratulations to her. That doesn't change the fact that her story is absolutely nothing like your scenario of "what if someone decided they are a woman the day before competition". It's nothing like it at all. There is no equivalence, absolutely no parallel to be drawn whatsoever and it's not right for you to have said that there was a similarity.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:bringing that up in a context that isn't specifically a discussion thread called 'should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (yes)' might be offensive, but in this specific context it's literally the precise subject of the thread and I'd emphasize that woozy has posted from a perspective that is about as far on the permissive end of the question as it is possible to be. Currently the biggest questions from actual sporting organizations in nearly all cases is not 'should trans people be able to compete' but rather, 'how long into the transition process should they be allowed to compete.' I want to emphasize here that this question is one trans athletes themselves are discussing and, in some organizations, are themselves involved in establishing the rules. Is there somewhere I can read about trans athletes themselves discussing the question of "what if someone decides they are female the night before a competition"? Specifically, trans athletes discussing this in the context of deciding rules for organizations?
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Apr 16, 2022 17:50
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