Metroidvania Megathread: I Hope You Like Grid Maps

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Metroidvania Megathread: I Hope You Like Grid Maps

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

This is just me, but I don't think Ender Lilies is particularly good. It's mediocre at best.

Plebian Parasite posted:

What's the best upgrade in a Metroidvania?

My vote is for Ori's Bash, pretty much makes the whole game.

I love a good grappling hook, that's probably the right answer. But also, double jumps and air dashes are so satisfying, too.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2022 15:33

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 09:51

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

SlothfulCobra posted:

How many games have a good grappling hook though? I feel like that's one of the upgrades I often see that can only be used at specific predetermined points.

I think one of the only games I've seen that give you a freeform grapple is Environmental Station Alpha.

Geappling hooks are definitely uncommon, and even when you get them they're not always great, but when you do get a good one you're in for a good time. A big part of why Environmental Station Alpha is such a good game comes from its excellent grapple.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2022 18:53

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Blue Labrador posted:

I played a little of Momadora: Reverie Under the Moonlight today for the first time in forever, and I remembered how much I love that game. Aside from how gorgeous it is, I think its length is great for a game in this genre. It's long enough that you probably won't beat it in one sitting your first time, but it's short enough that replaying it on harder difficulties/more efficiently isn't at all a chore.

I also really like the accessory system. It lets you have some player expression, but doesn't centralize the gameplay around making a build. Plus I like how it ties how bosses drop special equips when perfected. Do people know any other metroidvanias that have systems similar to this?

Also, in regards to upgrade chat, any metroidvania that gives you an airdash at some point is doing something right in my book.

Momodora kicks rear end, I can't wait for the next one.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2022 03:30

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Sjonkel posted:

What is the controller of choice for pc these days? My old one just died and now I have nothing to play these kinds of games with anymore.

PS4, PS5, any of the recent Xbox controllers.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2022 15:03

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Hollow Knight is quite good, but there are a few things about it that I really dislike. It's very much a solid 8/10 game for me. Granted, I only played it the one time, but I also don't think that replaying the game would improve my opinion of the game.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2022 08:36

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Soulslike games are not necessarily Metroidvanias, though they do tend to have a lot of similarities. I agree with Schwarzwald here, they're Classicvanias more than anything else. They're just Classicvanias where instead of choosing between several characters with defined moveset, you define your character over the course of play. They also have shortcuts in addition to checkpoints, because that's fun and makes the rewards for exploring feel more meaningful than just finding a full heal in a wall.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2022 09:37

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

I started playing Salt and Sacrifice, and I have a question. When you teleport back to the hub, am I missing something, or can you not warp back to the obelisk you teleported from? Do I actually have to replay big chunks of the level every time I leave to do character or equipment maintenance?

# ¿ Dec 21, 2022 22:11

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Morpheus posted:

That is correct. It's....not a particularly well-designed game. The idea is to unlock some shortcuts to make those run backs a little faster, but...yeah.

Yeah, that much is becoming pretty apparent pretty quickly. It's kinda surprising, the first game was actually a solid Metroidvania, and this one just seems like a pretty major step backwards.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2022 03:03

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

The 7th Guest posted:

I�m playing Souldiers and I�m waiting for the shoe to drop on what makes this game have Mixed reviews, because so far it loving rules

I think it had some issues around launch that have since been largely patched out.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2022 02:28

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Tortolia posted:

For PlayStation owners, Axiom Verge 2 is one of the January PS+ free games. Well worth playing.

Oh hell yeah, Axiom Verge 2 rules. I hope people jump on that.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2023 18:45

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Fuzz posted:

AV1 also had the loving obnoxious thing of raining the secret areas when you start a new game and they're not even specific locations that could eventually be mapped, it's just random loving was in room X that if you happen to do the dash thing through you will find a glitched or area with yet another randomly generated gun that more than likely sucks compared to the crazy wave beam that clears entire rooms. The secret detector was also bullshit in that it mildly changes the hue of your health bar from like, green to slightly lighter green or something asinine like that.

All that along with the linear world design and the lazy, "here's a big hallway to link all the areas together," had me beat it the one time and then never touch it again.

Is AV2 the same sorta thing with the first bit?

No, not at all. Outside of the drone being a major part of your character's kit and some similar visual flair, the two games are wildly different.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2023 14:27

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

woke kaczynski posted:

I 100%ed the followup game from that dev, Islets, last week. It's also extremely good, it's longer and has combat but it's fairly forgiving and has a lot of QoL features, and it's generally quite cozy.

Islets looks awesome, thanks for the rec.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2023 17:32

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

I got 100% on Islets earlier today after this thread's recommendation, and that game was fantastic. Sheepo was also good, but I vibed with Islets a bit more I think.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2023 07:16

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

RC Cola posted:

Trip report. HAAK is one of the best games I've ever played

I got a few hours into it, but the whole "this game is hard, git gud!" vibe the game was throwing out there really put me off.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2023 19:40

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Char posted:

I'm a bit under the weather, I didn't want to follow up on text-heavy games, so I tried ticking a checkbox on my "ancient games backlog" - I started Super Metroid.

On one hand - let me out the bad things first - I don't like the controls and the physics, like, at all.
On the other hand... I thought Dark Souls drew a lot from Castlevania SOTN, but I think it draws more from Super Metroid now. Okay I don't like the controls, but everything else - literally everything - is top notch. Presentation, atmosphere, looping ambient music that barely registers as music, eerie sound effects, spooky monsters, cutscenes in the game engine, sequence breaks, a huge moveset.
If I liked the controls of this game, this would be an eternal classic, too bad.

Have you tried changing your controls? You might be able to find something that works better for you. It's one of the main menu options, if I remember correctly.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2023 21:19

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Char posted:

Ok now I have something in particular I dislike: the Space Jump is inconsistent!

Space Jump is very consistent, it's just a weird thing to get used to. You have to be in a spin and wait longer than you might expect to hit the button again to continue the jump.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2023 21:40

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

BurningBeard posted:

Yo goons. I’m looking for a new game to play that I don’t have to overthink and metroidvanias are probably my best bet while still being deep enough to play around with. So in the interest of that what would you guys recommend say from the last five-seven years?

I do have some on hand that I haven’t gotten around to and I have played a good number of the foundation games. Super Metroid is a stone cold classic. SoTN likewise, Bloodstained hasn’t really grabbed me but I like all the options it gives you, and I’m not in the mood to have my head bashed in by something extremely execution heavy like Hollow Knight. I haven’t really messed around with Steamworld Dig 2, but it seems pretty cool.

the second Ori I started and like, but don’t know if I’ll stick with it right now. It’s good but just fiddly enough that I keep losing my patience.

So what I would actually want is something more focused on exploration and problem solving rather than combat. I’m game for a good combat system but the feel has to be right, and that’s really subjective.

I’m struggling to articulate exactly what I’m after here. Heavy exploration emphasis, smooth/fluid controls are probably my most important wants. Xbox series/Switch/PS4, though I’m sure anything you guys would recommend would be on any of them.

I’m also open to a more combat oriented game, I just want to make sure I like the feel of the controls. When I say smooth and fluid, something like Hades or Celeste are two huge touchpoints for me in terms of their controls being incredible and responsive.

Stylistically I like fantasy more than sci-fi, but if there’s a good creepy abandoned ship or space station I’m into it. Games with top knotch sound design will get extra consideration from me. Too bad I hated how Ghost Song felt, fwiw, because the sound design in that was incredible.

Two execution-heavy games I am looking at are Hyperlight Drifter and Unsighted, just because of how they look. So thoughts on those would be nice too.

Steamworld Dig 2 is really loving good. Probably one of my favorite metroidvanias? Hard to say, just wanna emphasize that the game is excellent.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2023 17:15

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

sudonim posted:

I must be the only person who doesn't like this game. I actually played through the whole thing (which I kind of regret) because it's not that long but I never caught the magic everyone else did.

It is very pretty and the art is imaginative but I kept running into gameplay bugs that combined with the difficulty made it a slog. Also didn't like how when I cleared out an area the enemies still stayed there doing atrocities to sheep people so it was like nothing my character did had any impact on the world.

Eh, I didn't love Hyper Light Drifter either, mostly because of the difficulty. Plus, something about the gameplay structure just didn't interest me, it's hard to say exactly what though.

# ¿ Apr 16, 2023 10:34

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

GrandpaPants posted:

Ender Lilies is on sale. How did that end up being? I recall hearing that the combat didn't quite feel right from a few people, but I dunno if that's more of a personal preference vs. a fundamental game design flaw.

It's pretty bad imo. None of the boss fights are particularly fun, and the final boss is dire. The exploration is okay, but nothing to write home about.

# ¿ May 1, 2023 06:21

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Captain France posted:

Blasphemous is also great, I finished the whole game and I think NG+, but some of the platforming was incredibly frustrating and (upgrade spoilers) you never get any good movement/platforming abilities.
Definitely looking out for that sequel.

This is the thing that always confuses me with Blasphemous. Why do people call it a Metroidvania when it lacks the core, defining feature of the genre?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2023 08:30

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Atoramos posted:

This feels like an odd critique, given Blasphemous features one of the more unique exploration options. Blew my mind realizing every pit was a new path

It's not really a critique, Blasphemous seems cool. It's more that I was confused because it seemed like people kept calling it a Metroidvania when, as far as I knew at the time I posted that, it wasn't one.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2023 19:48

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Swilo posted:

Grabbed this today, it's now 3 hours later and I agree. A nice bite size romp through a space station full of creepy crawlies.

More games need to be Metroid sci-fi/horror run-and-gun, I'm kind of burnt out on gothic/fantasy melee adventures.

I still like gothic/fantasy melee metroidvanias, but I'm completely burnt out on the Dark Souls influence.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2023 20:13

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Hollow Knight was good, but I hated the map system, and the double jump specifically felt bad.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2023 17:49

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

Maps that do not fill out as you explore them AND require you to find a thing to unlock areas you’ve already been to are dumb as hell. Either have me fill it out on graph paper myself or do it for me. The in between objectively demonstrates a flaw in game design. It’s one of the stupid things Aeterna Noctis also does. At least AN just has some stupid swirly see-through fog and the controls are nice/ precise so it’s fine I guess just really stupid.

Yeah, basically. If I'm playing a metroidvania, I want the map to update automatically. It would also be nice for the map to tell you if a given map square has something to find there, and whether or not you found that thing, like actual Metroid does.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2023 21:39

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Tortolia posted:

Yes but you have to actually remember where you�ve been until you find a bench or a map merchant and doesn�t instantly autofill the grid, so it fails at being a map

There�s a lot of arguments being made that something not being the most automated/simplistic form they can possibly take means that they are bad, rather than having merit for being more involved in some way. That�s a pretty simplistic view, but it�s valid so long as it isn�t being argued that anything more complex is a bad mechanic (which is unfortunately also happening).

The problem, at least for me, is that none of the more complex map systems I've encountered have felt like they actually add more merit to the system. They just make the map more frustrating to use.

Tortolia posted:

GRIME has a neat �not getting this for free� map mechanic where you have to find crystal pillars in each region to enable the permanent map logging, but:

A) the pillar makes an audible hum that gets louder as you approach it,
B) similarly when close enough you can see little visual streamers pointing you in the direction, and
C) whether or not you�ve found the crystal on that section yet, the map tracks all your recent movements via a little line of dots, so you can see what route(s) you�ve been taking so there�s less risk of getting lost trying to figure out the path you took if you get killed or turned around.

GRIME in general is full of those �not handed to you, but not overly arduous to handle� design decisions, which is part of why it�s really good.

I'm not opposed to systems where things aren't given to you, and you have to earn them, but I don't think that the map should be one of the things you have to earn. This post actually made me less interested in playing GRIME, because even though they put in the effort to make the system less obnoxious to use, at the end of the day I just don't like that system.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2023 21:58

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

guppy posted:

It is fine to like or not like the map system in Hollow Knight. But words have meaning and for something to be "objectively" bad would mean that it is an immutable fact, not something that can be disagreed with, and that is clearly not the case as multiple people in this thread, myself included, like the way the map works in Hollow Knight. It is fine for you to not like it but that does not make it an objective fact.

My only significant gripe about Hollow Knight is that I think a couple zones have overly punishing bench placement, like Crystal Peak. I also think they way overshot the mark re-doing the Traitor Lord fight, making it too difficult, and the Trial of the Fool is too long. I also do not care about most of the expansion stuff, particularly whichever thing had the boss rush (Godmaster?), since I am not into extreme challenge content.

Hollow Knight is already one of the best regarded Metroidvanias in recent years, probably all time. You don't need to worry about some random goon thinking a mechanic is bad.

I mean, poo poo, even I'm willing to grant that the game is pretty drat good, despite really disliking a core mechanic of the game.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2023 22:43

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Sakurazuka posted:

I'd say the inability to get the best ending without a guide is a core part of the genre

At least you can just reload your save and do what you need, Minoria was extremely annoying because once you got one ending that was it, the only way to get the others was to start all over again.

This reminds me, I've been meaning to try Minoria again. The last time I played that game, I kinda struggled, though. Any advice?

# ¿ Jul 23, 2023 14:53

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Sakurazuka posted:

No sorry I played it when it first came out and have no memory of anything other than the ending bit

Welp. Thanks anyway, I'll probably figure it out.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2023 15:03

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Tortolia posted:

Then we can�t have multiple page arguments about how Hollow Knight is bad actually

Those conversations would still happen, it would just change to a conversation about why people bounced off the game.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2023 16:55

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Barry Convex posted:

I think I'm most of the way through F.I.S.T., after having it sitting in my backlog since it was free on EGS late last year (I'm a bit past the part where you get the electric whip/grapple and about to head back to the city), and really enjoying it, tbh. I'm not going to claim it reinvents the wheel for the genre, but the brawler combat is fun, level design is solid enough to make areas feel distinct from one another, and the 2.5D visuals are very pretty.

I had a lot of fun with FIST. Agreed that it doesn't really reinvent the wheel, but it's great. Good combat, fun abilities, just an all around good time.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2023 01:08

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

I think I'm going to skip this one. I'm just so tired of soulslikes

# ¿ Nov 16, 2023 04:09

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Serephina posted:

Are you telling me that games that slavishly ape successful titles are just cargo-culting, and not carefully refined labours of vision and skill? Shocking!

I really wish that indie metroidvanias weren't infested by all these drat soulslikes. I like Souls games as much as the next person, but sometimes I want to play something else.

It's really telling how Sheepo and Islets being cheerful and breezy was a delightful breath of fresh air.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2023 07:04

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Kurui Reiten posted:

It's a fairly simple explanation: Most of the classic Metroidvanias are really not all that difficult. Metroid 1 and 2 are both difficult via jank, but starting with Super Metroid, the overall difficulty tanks. Same with SOTN and later Igavanias; you can basically face tank most things, and the necessary skill level is pretty low. The closest thing to difficulty is self-imposed challenges.

Igavanias are not Dark Souls-esque. They were always designed to be fairly breezy combat-wise. Trying to ape their design, while replacing the low stakes combat and varied arsenal, doesn't quite work because those are vital parts of the formula. You have to be careful, and thoughtful. Hollow Knight and Blasphemous do it pretty well, but then you get games where the systems are too complicated, the combat feels like a chore, and the entire game just hates you.

That's not a 'vania, no matter how much of an interconnected map with relics and poo poo it is. That's just bad game design.

This reminds me of one of the biggest bummers about all of the soulslike metroidvanias recently. One thing that I really like about a good metroidvania is how if you go for 100% you eventually get so powerful that whatever challenge the game has basically goes away. You just don't get that in a lot of these games, and that's sad. It feels like there's no mechanical reward for doing a lot of exploration sometimes.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2023 12:26

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

My only real memory of Ender Lilies is how bad the final boss was.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2024 23:12

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Salt and Sanctuary was good, yeah. Sacrifice seemed to be trying to be a different sort of game, which completely killed any interest I had in playing it.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2024 14:10

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 09:51

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

Oh gently caress, a new game from the Sheepo/Islets team? Hell yeah

# ¿ Mar 29, 2024 21:36

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