War in Ukraine: thread feedback session open unttil Saturday (i'll regret this)

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > War in Ukraine: thread feedback session open unttil Saturday (i'll regret this)

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Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

You can get military surplus gear all over the place online. Years back I bought a 5 pack of some eastern European issued tank crew snow pants for like $20. They were pretty decent quality.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2022 17:03

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 13:19

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Someone really needs to show Ukraine this thread so they can know what civilian targets to bomb.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2022 21:09

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Nenonen posted:

A civilian ship performing a military task under orders from the military leadership in an occupied area is not really a civilian ship.

Fixing a bridge used by civilians isn't a military task. They're primarily repairing the road not the railroad tracks anyways.

Would you say construction workers in the U.S. are performing a military task anytime they fix a pot hole or perform maintenance on an intersection?

PederP posted:

To me, it isn't purely a matter of whether the bridge (or the repair crew) is a legitimate target or not - discussing which bunch of people should be killed and in what fashion is tasteless bloodlusting. Just like I think it is beyond poor taste to discuss in detail the various possible targets and ways to obliterate soldiers (from one side or the other). Even in the context of a genocidal war of aggression. War sucks and people dying sucks. This bridge being made inoperable is a good thing in the context of ending this war sooner, but that doesn't make it useful to hypothesize about how to achieve that in vivid and gruesome detail.

Agreed, people flippantly talking about killing a bunch of civilian construction workers is gross.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2022 21:26

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Ynglaur posted:

I appreciate not devolving into outright blood-lusting, but discussing ways and means of achieving tactical and operational and strategic aims seems to be appropriate for this thread. Obviously the usual conversational rules about chaining speculations and being boring apply.

I wish all sorts of calamities upon the Russian military, but only for the aim of ending this senseless war more quickly. A civilian ship repairing infrastructure used by the military in an active war zone is a legitimate military target. They are effectively combatants, though a reasonable interpretation would be only in the conduct of such repairs. That said, sinking such a ship to prevent further such repairs would also be legitimate. Doing such in a manner that minimized loss of life would, of course, be ideal.

This thread doesn't get to decide what does or does not get blown up so it's kind of a pointless discussion that just reeks of war gawking and fantasizing about Russians dying.

At best it's a very grey area if civilians repairing a bridge are valid military target, posting about it like you're making an order at McDonalds and it's just so obviously the right thing isn't cool.

Note: I'm not talking about this post I'm quoting in particular as it's a bit more nuance but other posts about how it's 100% a valid military target and should be blown up.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2022 21:41

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Popete fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Oct 12, 2022

# ¿ Oct 12, 2022 22:55

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Rescuing a lost post. Also I think they�re quite hosed, it�s a small company and that�s a blatant sanctions violation well into millions.

Whoops! Thanks for noticing I'll repost it anyways as I thought the companies bit about the "disgruntled employee" was choice.

Special Report: U.S. firm supplied networking tech to maker of Russian missiles

Networking IT company sold computer systems to Russian companies that U.S. companies are banned doing business with. Just to be clear these are IT systems for businesses themselves not components going into weapons.

quote:

In April, six weeks after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, an Extreme employee filed an internal complaint, seen by Reuters, alleging that the company was selling to various military manufacturers in Russia. "Extreme equipment is used on Russian warships," the complaint said, "in communications systems."

Extreme said in its statement that the allegations were brought by a disgruntled employee. An investigation by the firm had found nothing to corroborate any of the claims until Reuters brought "new facts" to the company's attention this month. The company said it ceased operations in Russia in March, adding that it subsequently launched a process to dismiss the disgruntled employee for poor performance. It said it has no records of sales involving Russian warships.

But according to documents seen by Reuters, other buyers of Extreme equipment included not just MMZ Avangard but a major Russian military shipbuilding company and a high-tech defense electronics manufacturer.

One of the documents shows that in the four years ending 2020, Russian customers purchased $41.5 million worth of equipment. Reuters couldn't determine Extreme's total sales to sanctioned or military firms because it wasn't clear if transactions other than those involving MMZ Avangard had been recorded under cover names.

Love to blame a disgruntled employee.

Wonder how much trouble they'll actually be in if they knew (sounds like they did) they were breaking export bans.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2022 03:51

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

So the story about Extreme Networks breaking a ban on selling IT equipment to banned countries got me thinking about IT in general in Russia. Intel and other chip makers are banned from selling chips to Russia right? Does that extend to wholesale of desktops/laptops from vendors like Microsoft/Apple/Asus/etc. or can your average Russian citizen/business buy that stuff still?

# ¿ Oct 13, 2022 17:39

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

MikusR posted:

It's not like Russia borders any countries that are not under Sanctions.

It's more a question regarding the legality of selling business/personal use hardware within Russia.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2022 17:58

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

MikusR posted:

The hardware is sold in for example Kazakhstan. And then sent and resold in Russia.

I'm asking about the legality not how it can be circumvented. What is the actual legality of selling for example Intel chip desktops/laptops in Russia? Can Lenovo sell directly to Russian consumers or is that illegal?

The Extreme Networks debacle makes it sound like selling to specific organizations is prohibited but maybe not all businesses/consumers.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2022 18:47

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

The thing with Elon Musk tweets is they mean nothing. He will change his mind like an hour later, he does it stir people up and be the center of attention. Ignore him entirely.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2022 19:31

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

I kinda doubt that, if a missile just fell off the rail how would British even detect that? They wouldn't bring that up as an issue. It would effectively just be a very expensive rock.

Also I think it's very unlikely for a missile to just "fall off" an aircraft rail and even less likely that it would then ignite. Seems more likely intentional to spook the British recon aircraft or an unintentional firing by the pilot.

TK-42-1 posted:

I feel like constantly calling a rivet joint �civilian style� and unarmed is disingenuous at best. It�s a pretty hefty military asset.

Right, it's a reconnaissance aircraft. Given Russia's long history of aggressively spooking western aircraft that come close my guess is this was a similar situation and a pilot intentionally/unintentionally fired.

Popete fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Oct 20, 2022

# ¿ Oct 20, 2022 17:51

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Tamba posted:

Maybe if it was dropped near a spy plane full of sensors?

That's not what those spy planes are built to look for, detecting a relatively small missile dropping off an airplane would really only be feasible by camera/eyeball I would think.

Again if a missile just fell off a rail (which seems very unlikely in the first place, these things are built to withstand takeoff/landing) why would the British even bring this up?

# ¿ Oct 20, 2022 17:59

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

We should absolutely not be encouraging the U.S. to just blow up poo poo in another country because they are providing some support to Russia.

By that logic Russia could argue they should blow up factories in the U.S. for providing aid to Ukraine.

^^^Yeah that.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 21:18

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

slurm posted:

I thought they weren't doing this not because these factories and training sites weren't legitimate targets but more because of the risk of MAD/NATO escalation? I'm not seeing how Iran can escalate in quite the same way and we only have a few weeks now to get this wrapped up before the US flips.

Just because we could bomb targets in Iran without them nuking us does not mean we should. That would be a huge escalation on the U.S. part and likely lead to counter targeting of U.S. or NATO facilities by Iran or Russia. It's not a path we should want either side to go down.

Also Iran's role right now seems quite minor, it would be very difficult to justify politically in the U.S.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 21:23

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Iran sending small numbers of drone operators is not ok but it is not reason enough for the U.S. to act as world police and just bomb the poo poo out of them, likely killing civilians. That's the kind of thing we should be discouraging.

It's an escalation on Russia/Irans part yes but that doesn't mean NATO has to respond in kind.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 21:39

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Cicero posted:

Fair, and yeah I agree attacking Iran would be dumb, but imo that Iran has drone instructors/operators there at least means it would not-escalation for Ukraine's allies to also send some instructors/operators to help with the war on their side.

That is in fact escalation. Just because one side did it first doesn't mean the other side then stepping up their participation isn't also escalating the conflict.

This is not the U.S. war, we are obviously very heavily involved but I really don't think we should be bombing 3rd party countries for also being involved. As mentioned that opens up the U.S./NATO to being attacked by Russia or other 3rd parties for effectively the same reasons.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 21:45

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

A big flaming stink posted:

Seriously I can't believe someone in this thread is advocating starting another war in the middle east

What if we instigated some kind of revolution instead? Surely that couldn't back fire.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 21:59

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

KingColliwog posted:

I know nothing but that will stop light vehicules. I doubt it would be much work for a bulldozer or something to move away. Have no idea if tanks can run through them but I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't. Probably works to slow down an advance and help the defensive position

Yeah I don't think these alone are meant to stop an offensive force but all we have is a 22 second clip of some dragons teeth being laid down from a guy who also earlier today Tweeted that Ukraine should pull off a "Doolittle Raid" on Moscow, so you know maybe not the most unbiased source.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 23:51

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Kraftwerk posted:

How are Ukrainian drones attacking these ships. Are those naval drones basically suicide drones like those Japanese midget submarines?

No because those contained an actual human. These are remote controlled drone ships.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2022 20:14

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Pablo Bluth posted:

A few days ago the Royal United Services Institute (a UK defence and security think tank) published an in-depth look at the air-war so far. I've not had a chance to read it properly yet, and frankly I'm qualified to critique it...
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/russian-air-war-and-ukrainian-requirements-air-defence/

Kinda confirms what we've seen, neither side is capable of operating aircraft near the front and no clear air superiority. This is a win for Ukraine as their air defense systems have mostly neutralized Russia's far superior and numerous air force except for long range and expensive stand off missile attacks. Downside is they also cannot really operate to support their ground forces.

# ¿ Nov 11, 2022 00:33

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Those are dumb fire rockets, there is no guidance on them.

# ¿ Nov 11, 2022 08:53

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Watch them ban CSGO and trigger a full on civil war.

# ¿ Nov 11, 2022 18:53

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

The last time NATO was seriously concerned about a full scale Russian invasion was 30+ years ago. Equipment and priorities have changed.

Also the U.S. and other NATO countries aren't sending everything they have. They need to ensure they have sufficient stocks for their own forces.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2022 07:31

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

In the case of Abrams I don't think it's a training issue. Supposedly if you give an already trained tanker an Abrams they could figure it out with a day or two. It's likely either a tactical decision (U.S. not wanting Ukraine or Russia to have an Abrams) or a maintenance/parts issue.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2022 18:49

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

It may be that Ukraine doesn't have a pressing need for aircraft right now. Russia's air force is massive compared to Ukraine's they are not going to win air supremacy with a few dozen F-16. Ukraine has already done a fantastic job mostly neutralizing the RuAF with ground based air defenses but Russia also has a lot of that on their side which means neither side really has much ground attack capability except for long range stand off munitions which are very expensive and in limited supply (at least for Russia).

# ¿ Nov 14, 2022 20:03

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

And here in lies the problem with Twitter investigations.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2022 20:46

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Russia shot down an entire airliner full of civilians and nothing happened.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2022 21:05

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Despite everyone already knowing Russia shot down MH17 it took over a year of investigations to prove it in an official report by by the Dutch Safety Board. I don't think anyone is going to do anything at least not in the immediate time frame.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2022 21:19

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Read the ending of that article it is very funny.

"and another thing: I didn't talk to Orban. please dont put in the article that i talked to Orban"

# ¿ Nov 17, 2022 22:11

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

# ¿ Nov 18, 2022 01:28

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

I don't think we need to defend a bunch of people getting murdered because it's "technically" not a war crime.

It's a chaotic and scary situation I'm sure and we don't have all the details but neither does Twitter guy who is 100% sure it's fine.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 03:53

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Sucrose posted:

Opening fire on a whole group of enemy soldiers trying to surrender because one of them was only pretending to surrender and tried attacking isn�t remotely the same as executing POWs who have been captured and disarmed and are helpless, and I can�t believe so many people are trying to equate the two. I�m doubtful that soldiers in any Western army would have had better discipline in the same situation.

It's more that we really don't know the specifics and a bunch of people going "oh that's totally fine and justified" because it's Ukraine doing it when I would guess if those were Ukranian POWs wouldn't be so flippant.

I can't say whether it was justified or not (I won't even watch the video) but I just think we shouldn't be so blas� about these things.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 06:50

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Who said that it is totally fine and justified or for that matter is even being blase about it?

I think the original Tweet from the Italian guy took a tone of "this is totally fine and you're trained to do it" when I kind of doubt that is the case. This sound at best like a moral grey area, even if something doesn't qualify as a by the book war crime doesn't mean it's ok either.

Again I'll say it was probably a chaotic situation maybe it was justified maybe there was some aspect of revenge, I don't know. I just hope we can step back and remember how horrifying war is and we shouldn't look to justify or give pass to one side.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 07:13

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

If Valve cut Russia off from Steam that would be something.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2022 20:04

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

sean10mm posted:

They've been wrong both ways; Russia supposedly had 7,000 T-72 and 3,000 T-80 series in reserve, but are already throwing in T-62 shitboxes in spite of taking nowhere near enough losses for that to make sense unless the "credible" prewar numbers were always a joke.

There was an interesting video on this by Military History Visualized recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SehCWABGTpU

If you don't want to watch the whole thing the gist is Russia probably doesn't want to use T-80s as they run on gas turbine engines that consume a ton of fuel and for the warfare they are fighting in Ukraine the marginal armour upgrade and the nice to have optics aren't worth the logistics problems it would take to bring a bunch of T-80s into the fight.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2022 23:15

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Sir John Falstaff posted:

Then why are they already using so many of them? They've already lost well over 300 of them, according to Oryx's list.

Also makes me wonder why they would be taking old T-72As from Belarus if their own tanks are so plentiful.

T-80s prior to the war only made up 17% of Russias tanks in service with T-72s making up 70.8%

The video goes into more explanation but the main point is that bringing more of them online would make their resource logistics which already appears strained even worse as they consume a ton of fuel and are more difficult maintenance wise.

They're probably using T-80s that were already in service but are opting to use more T-72 and T-64 because although the T-80 is a better tank it isn't significantly better to justify the logistics pain. A T-80 and a T-64 are both going to get blown up by a top attack AT weapon but one consumes 5 times as much fuel.

Popete fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Nov 23, 2022

# ¿ Nov 23, 2022 23:36

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Ukraine is still operating aircraft off of roads and other makeshift airfield right? That's doable with a small air force but not so much one big enough to really have air superiority.

I don't think you could just dump an entire air force into Ukraine and not have them blown up on the ground by cruise missiles. You need a lot of maintenance and dedicate repair facilities to manage an air force and you can't just hide that stuff in a relatively small country like Ukraine.

If it were as simple as give Ukraine F-16s and they win the war it probably would be have been done by now.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2022 04:20

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Tuna-Fish posted:

I would assume launch from Chuhuiv, Kharkiv Oblast. Close to target while still being far enough from the frontline that people who show up there wouldn't immediately get shelled. Cross the border flying really low somewhere in the northeastern edge of Kharkiv oblast, pick a place where there hasn't been fighting, and where there are no major settlements. Past that, climb high enough to go over power lines. (Because while the Turks have nap-of-the-earth automation, I doubt that they want that on a drone that's presumably going to be handed over to the Russians.) Then fly a zig-zag path that avoids all major settlements and gives an especially wide berth to airfields and military installations. Even with the diversions, the range to Engelsk from that airfield is ~750km, well within the fully loaded one-way (and even two-way) range of all the drones that Baykar sells. The ideal attack is right after the bombers start taking off, before they climb too high for the (presumably, I don't think we know for sure) short-ranged AA missiles that the drone carries, because the drone certainly cannot follow them up there without being shot down. Timing is a bitch because you have to launch about 6h before the bombers take off, and you cannot guarantee or expect communications when near the target, so you have to preprogram everything, but so far the Russians have been very consistent in their timing of these things.

The expected outcome of this is still that the drone gets unceremoniously shot down somewhere fairly close to the border. But for that to happen, Russia needs to have at least baseline competent AA net, and I think it's absolutely worth one drone and 4 missiles to find out if they do.

The communication range for a Bayraktar TB2 is 300km, they couldn't even fly a drone near the airbase if they wanted to.

# ¿ Nov 30, 2022 18:03

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

That would be nearly impossible to pre-progam firing short range AA missiles that likely need a heat signature at targets you don't know where they will be 6 hours ahead of time hoping to catch them during an extremely short time window of take off.

Like the better option would be yeeting Ukraines remaining air force at Engels and that is also not going to happen for many reasons.

Edit: Also A TB2 would be picked up by Russian radar probably long before it got there. They aren't mini quad copters.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Popete fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 30, 2022

# ¿ Nov 30, 2022 18:13

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 13:19

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

The last time a Russian mother got angry at Putin she was forcibly injected with sedatives on live TV. I don't think the regime cares.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2023 06:37

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > War in Ukraine: thread feedback session open unttil Saturday (i'll regret this)

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