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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Obi-Wan, the client, is taken for a tour to show how advanced their clone factory is. LAMA SU: We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host. As a result they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. Obi-Wan immediately ignores this holy poo poo what is wrong with you people moment and jumps on the host part. The Jedi tacitly approve of slavery in the PT.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:05
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porfiria posted:They're great as long as they're still images without people in them. ??? THose shots were full of people.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:06
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Neurolimal posted:"Regardless of their intent" Yes, i'm making a moral choice against slavery and choosing to stand with the oppressed against the oppressor based upon a subjective truth and share in their struggle, regardless of the war's outcome. Yes the droids are fighting as separatists as the republic doesn't acknowledge them as people, so again how can the majority rule if it doesn't include everyone? As you said yourself, good intentions alone do not make for good action. You're making a choice, that you've made abundantly clear regardless of your intentions, to support a war waged upon the oppressed in order to restore peace for the good of the majority. You're making an unthinking and blind appeal to power in order to restore the republic and maintain its thousand year peace by re-establishing order and putting droids back in their place. brawleh fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 01:06
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Neurolimal posted:Or it's played as uncomfortably alien. If I recall right, within the Clone Wars cartoon the Kaminoans are not slimy used car salesmen, but technologically advanced and integrated aliens who worship a specific jedi member. This suggests an inhuman disconnect from organic emotions, a pride in their ability to augment, and an incredibly favorable view of jedi. The aesthetic is the "show".
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Apr 26, 2016 01:06
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brawleh posted:Yes, i'm making a moral choice against slavery and choosing to stand with the oppressed against the oppressor based upon a subjective truth and share in their struggle, regardless of the war's outcome. Yes the droids are fighting as separatists as the republic doesn't acknowledge them as people, so again how can the majority rule if it doesn't include everyone? Just because good intentions alone does not make for good action, does not mean that the inverse (that maleficent intentions make for good actions) is true either. Ultimately the results of the war will be whats attempted by the victors, and the victors would be federation and the seperatists. Not the droids. I support a war waged on slavemasters exploiting slaves. Because said slavemasters are currently using the slaves to die for them. They are the immediate oppressors. There is more to this than "Humans vs. Droids".
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Apr 26, 2016 01:09
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The aesthetic is the "show". We are never shown a "true" Kamino setting. None of that reading is contradictory to what is represented within the PT, within the collected works of Star Wars, and within the works approved by George Lucas.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:10
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euphronius posted:??? THose shots were full of people. No no no. Those are Droids.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:17
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Neurolimal posted:Just because good intentions alone does not make for good action, does not mean that the inverse (that maleficent intentions make for good actions) is true either. Ultimately the results of the war will be whats attempted by the victors, and the victors would be federation and the seperatists. Not the droids. I'm asserting very clearly that your actions matter and that you should let a subjective truth guide your feelings, this truth lies in the power of the force(holy spirit). So no, i'm not the one playing devil's advocate in favor of slavery by advocating a return to a thousand year peace that has only been disrupted by an uprising including overwhelming numbers of the oppressed. I also don't condone torture either for what it's worth.  The victor of the war was the republic, the droids(clones) slaughtered or enslaved, the jedi successfully brought about peace or to be more accurate, restored peace to the galaxy. brawleh fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 01:30
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:No no no. Those are Droids. *gasp*
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Apr 26, 2016 01:32
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brawleh posted:I'm asserting very clearly that your actions matter and that you should let a subjective truth guide your feelings, this truth lies in the power of the force(holy spirit). So no, i'm not the one playing devil's advocate in favor of slavery by advocating a return to a thousand year peace that has only been disrupted by an uprising including overwhelming numbers of the oppressed. I also don't condone torture either for what it's worth. Instead of the alternative, where the droids are still slaughtered, the droids are still enslaved, the now useless war droids are executed in favor of loading droids, and the federation (an organization based upon slave labor) is sustained through the Separatists. I wonder how a Star Wars with a still-existing Federation would have looked at the point of TFA?
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Apr 26, 2016 01:44
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Neurolimal posted:Instead of the alternative, where the droids are still slaughtered, the droids are still enslaved, the now useless war droids are executed in favor of loading droids, and the federation (an organization based upon slave labor) is sustained through the Separatists. I wonder how a Star Wars with a still-existing Federation would have looked at the point of TFA? brawleh posted:Yes, i'm making a moral choice against slavery and choosing to stand with the oppressed against the oppressor based upon a subjective truth and share in their struggle, regardless of the war's outcome. Yes the droids are fighting as separatists as the republic doesn't acknowledge them as people, so again how can the majority rule if it doesn't include everyone? You've already had a response to this. My opposition to the republic and the jedi is to oppose the peace they would restore, that of a return to slavery. Regardless of who is the victor, I make a conscious choice to stand with the oppressed. This is taking a moral stance based upon a subjective truth, to share in their struggle.
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Apr 26, 2016 02:07
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brawleh posted:You've already had a response to this. My opposition to the republic and the jedi is to oppose the peace they would restore, that of a return to slavery. Regardless of who is the victor, I make a conscious choice to stand with the oppressed. This is taking a moral stance based upon a subjective truth, to share in their struggle. Your choice would be overwhelmingly likely to put droids in an even worse situation. I'm not even talking risks, i'm talking "the droid equivalent of plantation owners really shouldn't win, even if the other guys have slave butlers"
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Apr 26, 2016 02:12
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Neurolimal posted:Your choice would be overwhelmingly likely to put droids in an even worse situation. I'm not even talking risks, i'm talking "the droid equivalent of plantation owners really shouldn't win, even if the other guys have slave butlers" Again yes, i'm making a choice to join the droids(dehumanised) in order to share in their struggle and suffering. You now have a burden of responsibility to make your own choice, freedom. So far you have been very single minded in your support of the republic and the jedi order. I can only hope that you can embrace me as a brother, sister, droid and so on in this community of solidarity through struggle. Your focus on ideological purity is misguided, you can find redemption in the force(holy spirit).
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Apr 26, 2016 02:43
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I'm pretty sure any oppressed in a real life version of this would be going "what is wrong with you".
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Apr 26, 2016 02:47
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I really think the CGI in TPM holds up way better than the others. Maybe the droids are a little shiny, but they feel a lot more real than the insanity that's going on in the other two shots.
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Apr 26, 2016 02:52
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I just think all those prequel designs look sooooooooo sick, look at those cool robots!!!
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Apr 26, 2016 02:56
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Droids look so heroic in that AotC shot! Also I've been watching the Clone Wars cg cartoon on netflix recently and Battle Droids tend to be the most sympathetic/entertaining characters in the whole thing. There's even a scene where a Battle Droid salutes R2D2 and does the whole "it was an honor to serve under you sir!" before getting unceremoniously pasted. It really plays on the R2D2 basically being violent as heck all over the place and it's pretty entertaining. You can immediately tell when Lucas started getting involved at the start of the second season as well, it's a pretty impressive transition to his much more cinematic visual style.
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Apr 26, 2016 03:08
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Waffles Inc. posted:You don't think the following characters are interesting to watch?: I like a lot of those characters because of the Clone Wars series, but in the confines of the PT itself they're more interesting to read about in Cnut posts. Many of them are good ideas for characters that never landed, much like the vast majority of the humor in the films. Why didn't they land? Because fuckability matters. Padme may be hot, but she ain't fuckable. quote:There's a *ton* to like about Palpatine, he's a hilarious scenery-chewing dude. Why does he have to be a "good guy" to "like" him? He doesn't, his scenes in II and III hamming it up are pretty much the only time I can get into the films. Watching a guy like that dunk on fools should be awesome, but those fools need to have something going for them. They don't, so it ends up being LeBron James vs. Peter Dinklage, better for YouTube clips than a feature film. quote:I know a lot of you hate this meme already but you seem to be talking about the same sort of "fucakbility" thing that SMG alluded to earlier. None of these characters are charming and fuckable ("rooting interest"), so people don't think they're likeable or interesting I don't mind the term at all, the lack of fuckability is why they fail. SMG is a chatbot, so its readings will naturally be devoid of the human element that get viewers to laugh, cry and hurl. To go back to my Thank You For Smoking example, that at least poses some interesting moral/philosophical questions. Should people have their choices restricted if its better for their health? What measures should be taken to attack corporations that sell harmful products? How involved should the government be in what people choose to put in their bodies? I'm not going to pretend it had the greatest answer to those questions, but it was interesting to think about. It isn't interesting to think slavery is bad, of course it is. Plus, you better drat well believe Aaron Eckhart is fuckable. quote:Contrast that with TFA which has incredibly "rooting interest" characters...but to what end? I got a reason to be excited about the direction of the franchise for the first time since '99. Sure, it wasn't perfect, and I'd rate the OT higher, but we've got a better director on board to explore the deeper implications of the character's backstories and state of the galaxy. I'm on board with all the new characters and am champing at the bit to see where Rian Johnson takes them. Filthy Casual fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 03:33
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Filthy Casual posted:None of the moral/philosophical points presented in the film are especially difficult to grasp. Slavery is bad, condoning slavery is bad, considering a sentient being less than you because they look different is bad. Letting corporations have a seat in Congress is bad. Child abduction/indoctrination is bad. War is bad. These aren't exactly hard-hitting points to make, and making them isn't all that interesting. So why care? I would like to point out that every single one of these has been vehemently disputed in this very thread.
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Apr 26, 2016 04:18
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EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:I would like to point out that every single one of these has been vehemently disputed in this very thread. If you ignore the actual arguments around them, sure.
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Apr 26, 2016 04:26
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Hat Thoughts posted:I just think all those prequel designs look sooooooooo sick, look at those cool robots!!! The designs are nice. I legit love them. But it's like they were in service of nothing. Every cool looking thing in the prequels sucks poo poo. Grievous, Maul, Jango, the battle droids....all goddamn worthless. Bummed me out so much as a kid. I'd be all excited to see how cool this character was, and then they just die like a bitch. 
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Apr 26, 2016 04:51
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CelticPredator posted:The designs are nice. I legit love them. Well, with TCW you can finally sate your child self, since Lucas got to take his time and fully communicate every aspect of the prequels in a competent and easily read fashion. Need to get through some really rough first seasons, though.
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Apr 26, 2016 04:58
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Filthy Casual posted:fuckability matters. The intense focus on the characters' relationship to you (as, effectively, simulated friends) does a lot to obscure the fact that they don't have actual personalities. Rey's entire character is fundamentally passive - lots of staring incredulously at things, punctuated by weird bursts of automatic violence - while all emphasis is on her deep inner life, her dreams and fantasies and so-on: Expository Dialogue: A scavenger. You know I can take whatever I want. You're so lonely, so afraid to leave. At night, desperate to sleep, you imagine an ocean. I see it. I see the island. And Han Solo: you feel like he's the father you never had. Yawn. Actual personality is what remains when you subtract this stuff and focus on what a given character does - and that's where you get Rey just spontaneously beating FN with a metal rod, wallowing in self-pity, beating Kylo with a laser rod and, uh, treating BB paternalistically...? As a contrast, the OT characters are constantly doing things. Note the scene in A New Hope where Luke deploys a grappling hook out of nowhere and uses it to navigate the Death Star. In Empire, he'll use a similar device to climb up and stab the machine in the gut. That's character development.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:06
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People say to start with season 3 but even season 2 has enough violence and cynicism to get by. I'm not saying it's worth watching just for the violence but it's pretty cool. There's an episode IIRC late in the second season where this terrorist guy fails in what he was doing and jumps to his death and it cuts away like it always does when someone falls out a building in a cartoon but then it actually cuts back and shows the person landing on a transparent overpass that cracks making a bunch of people look up towards the person as they breathe their last breaths while the person they were trying to kill consoles them about how their society isn't going to fall apart. There's another episode where two of the kid characters talk a lot about how it's bullshit that they're supposed to be honored to be called "peacekeepers" when "peacekeeper" means fly around killing whoever the Republic doesn't like for the rest of their lives. It's still a silly fun kids show but it has some surprisingly adult moments and instances of really good visual storytelling that caught me by surprise. So I wouldn't skip too much of it. The show's greatest achievement of course is that during Jar Jar's appearances he manages to not be annoying and is occasionally actually funny. Its greatest crime is that god drat Grievious cough though wwwhhhyyyyyyyyyyy.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:13
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Neo Rasa posted:
"Gentlemen and... (looks around the room) gentlemen...."
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Apr 26, 2016 05:19
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EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:I would like to point out that every single one of these has been vehemently disputed in this very thread. Haha, can't argue there. I don't always agree with where the line in the sand has been drawn ITT. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yawn. Actual personality is what remains when you subtract this stuff and focus on what a given character does - and that's where you get Rey just spontaneously beating FN with a metal rod, wallowing in self-pity, beating Kylo with a laser rod and, uh, treating BB paternalistically...? I dunno how spontaneous that beating is, given Finn is wearing Poe's battle-scarred jacket. That looks pretty drat suspicious. Its a fuckable reaction to the situation. quote:As a contrast, the OT characters are constantly doing things. Note the scene in A New Hope where Luke deploys a grappling hook out of nowhere and uses it to navigate the Death Star. In Empire, he'll use a similar device to climb up and stab the machine in the gut. That's character development. That's not a fair comparison, Rey's only had one movie with her gadgets.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:21
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Filthy Casual posted:That's not a fair comparison, Rey's only had one movie with her gadgets. One of the most understated things in A New Hope is that Luke repeatedly saves the day by using equipment from the first Stormtrooper he killed offscreen:  Han also grabbed a belt, but only uses the rifle. He doesn't take to this as quickly as Luke does. And this all ties back to Luke's original plan of joining the academy - that imagery of Luke and Han 'turning into' Stormtroopers. We never see the actual uniform switch (or what happened to the bodies), because the point is the odd metaphorical transformation. In Force Awakens, recall the scene where Rey talks about how she can quickly rig a ship to create a gas trap - and then it just doesn't happen. Or note FN looking at the training-ball for two seconds, then not-using it. There's a lot of that.
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Apr 26, 2016 06:01
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computer parts posted:" There is a natural order to this world, and those who try to upend it do not fare well. This movement will never survive; if you join them, you and your entire family will be shunned. At best, you will exist a pariah to be spat at and beaten-at worst, to be lynched or crucified. And for what? For what? No matter what you do it will never amount to anything more than a single drop in a limitless ocean." An ocean is a collection of drops! Haha yeah owned.
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Apr 26, 2016 06:21
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Neurolimal posted:I'm pretty sure any oppressed in a real life version of this would be going "what is wrong with you". This is the inhuman power of the force(Christian love), it allows you to see beyond the horizon and see the unseen(droids, clones and so on). To open up space for thought from a perspective that surrounds us, penetrates us and binds us together. What blinds the Jedi Order is the power they've attained it's made them arrogant, weak and demonstrates their fall within the Republic. The mistake you should avoid making is to restore this peace presented in the republic. These are the good intentions of the jedi(peace) contrast with their good actions. Command of a slave army in order to kill another slave army to enforce their form of slavery. Attack Of The Clones almost entirely revolves around the jedi trying to hide this impotence that's born from fear of the truth. So they take command of a clone army as a sign of strength. As if it isn't readily apparent to any 'force user' outside their order(Dooku/Sheev) just how weak they've become. It ties directly into the dorky yet earnest romance thread, that also draws attention to dreams being realised as nightmares. Anakin's return to Tatooine and slaughter of the sand people, after learning of his mother's fate(I had a dream I was a Jedi).    Sorry to repost these, again, but there's an important relationship here your attention should be drawn to relating to the idea of clouded judgement. The first image from the phantom menace; it's picturesque in the idyllic depiction of clear skies and green fields. Standing in this field are two armies about to wage war. This reoccurring mirror imagery will later engulf the galaxy in civil war. The Droids now statuesque representations of the Gungans, are being commanded by the trade federation to oppress the people(s) of Naboo. The Gungan army stands opposed, despite the strained and fraught relationship with Queen Amidala and her("my") people. Recall the two peoples meeting taking place in a forest with ruins. The Gungan army fights and dies to protect everyone. They willingly choose to share in this solidarity through struggle and suffering in order to bring about true everlasting peace. The Kingdom Of Heaven and total abolition and absolution of slavery in all forms etc. The Crucifixion Luke 23:28-31 : But Jesus turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'fall on us,' and to the hills, 'cover us.' "For if they do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" After this conflict, the Gungan army has been incorporated into yet another battle against an oppressor, symbolically joining their brethren. Again they're having to wage war against a clone made after their image. In this conflict things are much more dry like an autumn leaf, smoke and dust create clouds on the ground, the sky golden and red. Is this the dawn of a new day or an unsettling dusk leading into a long night? Regardless, the droid army bolstered by their Gungan brethren stands ready to protect everyone, to the death if necessary. By Revenge the colour is alarmingly washing away and the answer is becoming clear. Shown in a desperate attempt to make a beach landing. This is their last act to try and find common ground. The end of the war as we know has already been determined from the moment it began, a thousand years ago. What we're seeing here is the Republic suppressing the aberration and reforming itself in a new image. There's a very obvious Spielberg influence here.    Now here are the accompanying depictions of fleets 'above' but the perspectives are radically different. It's symbolically inverted, a mirror. The Naboo fighter cockpit heading towards a lone droid control ship. The clone army ground forces shooting down the ascending separatist sphere, a control ship without it's protective ring. Culminating in imagery of X-wings and A-wings attacking a rebel fleet(clones, stagnant images from the past and so on). All of this speaks to the true nature of the conflict, all of this points towards the Republic and the Jedi's greatest failing. It's all rooted in the symbolic imagery of spheres, rings, multitudes and voids. Now here's something of a litmus test, remember a while back the whole Jar-Jar Binks is the true sith lord 'theory' meme. This is something of a thoughtful rebuttal, Jar-Jar Binks when joining his brethren in the Gungan army is exactly the jedi you are looking for, that you defined. The jedi who takes up the struggle alongside the oppressed against the oppressor, he shares in this collective born from shared struggle and suffering. Jar-Jar Binks: Mesa called Jar-Jar Binks. Mesa your humble servant. brawleh fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Apr 27, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 10:05
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brawleh posted:Again yes, i'm making a choice to join the droids(dehumanised) in order to share in their struggle and suffering. You now have a burden of responsibility to make your own choice, freedom. So far you have been very single minded in your support of the republic and the jedi order. I can only hope that you can embrace me as a brother, sister, droid and so on in this community of solidarity through struggle. Your focus on ideological purity is misguided, you can find redemption in the force(holy spirit). but the driods don't want to fight the war when their command structure in Phantom menace is shut down they stop fighting. the correct choice isn't to join the separatists they're the exact same as the republic the jedi must tear them both down and set the slaves free.
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Apr 26, 2016 10:51
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The droids die with the control ship, just like as if they had bombs in their heads.
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Apr 26, 2016 10:57
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CelticPredator posted:The designs are nice. I legit love them. This says more about you than the prequels.
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Apr 26, 2016 12:57
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Neurolimal posted:I'm making the case that good intentions alone do not make for good action. The scale required to force the galaxy into abolishing slavery would require totalitarian rule. In a way this is like the question of Windu's confrontation with Palpatine. The problem isn't just that they're not freeing slaves, the problem is they let slavery get this bad to begin with. The Republic went and let the Trade Federation become as powerful as it was, let Tattooine become a planet run by slavers, and the consequences of that neglect play out over the PT. By the time Qui-Gon and company land on Mos Espa it's arguably too late.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:47
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This says more about you than the prequels. You are as blank as a fart.
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Apr 26, 2016 17:00
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CelticPredator posted:You are as blank as a fart. Your engagement with Star Wars is a single-graph scatter plot with axes "how cool something looks" and "how many things it kills in the movies/how quickly it dies."
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Apr 26, 2016 17:36
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homullus posted:Your engagement with Star Wars is a single-graph scatter plot with axes "how cool something looks" and "how many things it kills in the movies/how quickly it dies." At least give them the benefit of a fuckability Z-axis. That poo poo's important.
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Apr 26, 2016 17:57
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Elfgames posted:the correct choice isn't to join the separatists they're the exact same as the republic the jedi must tear them both down and set the slaves free. This is correct; brawleh's going a bit too far in considering the Federation and Seperatists a force of droid liberation or whatever. What's respectable about the Seperatists is the opposite: in making everything worse, in embracing Capitalism without moral limitation, they disrupt the Republic's violent status quo. They show the Republic its true face, making the all-pervasive Dark Side of capitalism palpable. These are MASER tanks from the Godzilla series, tools for repressing the monster that comes from within. When Yoda says "the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun, this Clone War has", he's not entirely wrong. Yoda simply misinterprets the situation: the entire Seperatist movement is a clone (dark reflection) of the Republic, and he himself wears a shroud.
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Apr 26, 2016 18:56
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homullus posted:Your engagement with Star Wars is a single-graph scatter plot with axes "how cool something looks" and "how many things it kills in the movies/how quickly it dies." It makes you real mad don't it.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:18
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CelticPredator posted:It makes you real mad don't it. I drew the diagram of your critical framework in my school notebook with those axes, scribbled it out furiously, and hurled it to the floor in a rage!
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Apr 26, 2016 21:41
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Rude! I'm telling!
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Apr 26, 2016 21:50
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