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The Dark One posted:The "aghast at selling tobacco" thing isn't even consistent since Quark had no problem selling weapons to both sides of a bloody conflict. Tobacco kills of the person paying you money, weapons kill off other people 
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Aug 1, 2016 03:21
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Finally got to see the movie today. Great movie, definitely my favorite of the 3. Pine has really grown into the Shatner role, and the callbacks to TOS and Enterprise were awesome! So a question: The helmeted soldiers were all drones right? So were the other humanoids like Krall's righthand rear end in a top hat and the chick who got a Gaz-L posted:I think Krall's motivation, thematically anyway, is a bit more complex than 'revenge'. (I don't think Admiral Robocop was after revenge, either? I thought it was a whole false-flag/pre-emptive strike thing?) It's basically a concept of nativism and nationalism (Edison feeling like we need to constantly be in conflict with aliens, trying to beat them and 'win' without any thought to what winning actually gets you, basically a harder-line version of Archer's anti-Vulcan stance at the start of ENT) vs diversity and the Federation's cosmpolitan, diplomatic utopia, which shows that Pegg and his writing partner understand Trek a lot better than the previous team. I think his motivation was actually more similar to another Peter Weller character from Star Trek, John Frederick Paxton. More than likely with Edison being a contemporary of him, Edison believed in his Terra Prime ideals. I also gotta say I think The Franklin is a really cool ship. Like an old hot rod. I'm glad she finally made it home. Astroman fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 03:21
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:He's a soft touch, but still a shrewd, successful businessman. Yeah, by human standards.
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Aug 1, 2016 03:22
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Oh I forgot my favorite joke/callback in the new movie: "I ripped my shirt again!"
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Aug 1, 2016 03:27
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Nessus posted:The Ferengi aren't really unrestrained capitalism, they're just a lot closer to what we'd consider modern day capitalism than the Feds. Quark is aghast at the prospect of selling tobacco, and Quark is more or less portrayed as John Q. Ferengi. "Unrestrained capitalism" here would either do some math to figure out the highest sustainable rate of death-stick sales, or try to goose death-stick sales immensely to make quarterly figures and then let everything collapse. I think it's important to remember that while the Ferengi have an allegedly free market, it's steeped in tradition and doctrine. Hell, it's part of their religion. There are a lot of Rules of Acquisition and well most are pretty open to interpretation, it's also pretty clear that you don't want to be a Ferengi who's seen as acting outside the rules. So even if you ignore the presence of governing bodies like the Commerce Authority and the Nagus, there are strong social pressures to do things the Right Way. Since those who are successful are assumed to have gotten that way because they followed the Rules, the system becomes self-reinforcing. It's really not that different from the way a lot of under-regulated capitalist economies operate in the real world. In theory, such a system is supposed to be cut-throat competitive, but in practice, the wealthy power-brokers work together to maintain a system that benefits them while leaving just enough opportunity for the lower classes to keep climbing the ladder, so long as they do so in a way that their bosses and superiors approve of. Basically, if you and your friends own the playing field, you can set whatever rules you want and everyone else can choose to play ball in your rigged game or sit on the sidelines with no chance of winning at all. As systems of social control go, I'd say the Ferengi approach makes at least as much sense as the Klingon "we are all honorable warriors" claptrap or the Romulan paranoid fascist police state. Hell, the Federation's decentralized structure and "we just work to better ourselves" ethos seems like a system that would make it at least as hard to actually get anything done.
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Aug 1, 2016 03:32
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Astroman posted:Finally got to see the movie today. Great movie, definitely my favorite of the 3. Pine has really grown into the Shatner role, and the callbacks to TOS and Enterprise were awesome! Krall's soldiers are the enslaved crews of the other ships he's destroyed on the planet. I think the other non-helmeted alien is implied to be from the Franklin, but it's never really made clear.
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Aug 1, 2016 04:12
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Talking about Star Trek economies is silly as hell because the writers almost never actually engage with the implications of any of them, and literally none of them make sense given how rich the societies in Star Trek actually are. Like characterizing the Federation as "socialist" (especially since it's never said explicitly) is pretty ridiculous since a post-scarcity capitalist economy, if such a thing could even exist, would look nothing like real world capitalism and would probably look an awful lot like whatever the Federation is anyway. You could totally have an effectively currency-less capitalist system, for example, if the society was just so absurdly rich that actually having a medium of exchange is a non issue for everyone but the super upper classes.
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Aug 1, 2016 04:15
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Paradoxish posted:Talking about Star Trek is silly as hell
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Aug 1, 2016 04:26
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Krall's soldiers are the enslaved crews of the other ships he's destroyed on the planet. I think the other non-helmeted alien is implied to be from the Franklin, but it's never really made clear. Pretty sure the only living people are the three survivors of the Franklin and the alien crews were their food. The rest of his army is the swarm drones.
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Aug 1, 2016 04:34
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Even if the show did explicitly state they were Socialists it would be wrong since socialism is a system were the workers control their own workplaces, and we clearly see that the Federation works on a hierarchy with officers, bosses and seniority of staff. Oh and the Bolians have great big galactic banks. Really the Federation is just a hyper idealised America, and that's true of its economy, its just got rid of the bad things like unemployment, greed, poverty, people having to do work their not suited for to make ends meet, profit motive leading to unethical acts, etc. Yes it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny but It's how Trek deals with all its problems, present a future were the issues of the present aren't issues any more to push the message that things can get better. We don't really see how the Federation overcame racism amongst humans either, the few times human racism is touched on with Sisko on DS9 its set in the 1950's which is in the past for them and the audience. Its just another layer of Star Trek's optimistic future, a bit vague and contradictory but overall pretty good.
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Aug 1, 2016 04:38
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Baka-nin posted:Even if the show did explicitly state they were Socialists it would be wrong since socialism is a system were the workers control their own workplaces, and we clearly see that the Federation works on a hierarchy with officers, bosses and seniority of staff. Oh and the Bolians have great big galactic banks. You could still have hierarchies and bosses in true "socialism" or whatever, you just wouldn't have a capital class actually owning the physical means of production. There's no real on screen evidence that the Federation couldn't be a socialist economy, just like there's no real on screen evidence that the Federation couldn't just be a hyper advanced capitalist economy. Although really I agree with you that the Federation is pretty much just idealized super space America.
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Aug 1, 2016 04:47
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Well, on to season seven.
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Aug 1, 2016 04:48
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FlamingLiberal posted:STB dropped 60% this weekend, which isn't great. That's the worst drop of the three JJTrek films. Figures. First time since 1996 they pump out a decent Trek flick and this happens.
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Aug 1, 2016 05:00
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75% of Beyond was a really enjoyable movie but basically everything after they left the planet felt somewhat empty. It felt like they basically gave up on building the story they had established before that. The victory at the end didn't really build on the rest of the movie. The defeat of the swarm ship fleet didn't feel earned. It was basically just technobabble from nowhere. Plus, the whole 'exploding ships via beastie boys' made me feel almost embarrassed. It tied back to the music being played earlier, but felt incredibly easy and unearned. I'm sure they could have kept the scene but framed it more solidly. They made this giant threat, and then handwaved it away. The flying fistfight was fine, but you knew how it was going to end so there wasn't really any suspense. There was a bunch of space for character development for Krall, and to not have that tie into the climax of the film felt like a waste. When he saw his reflection at the end it felt like it would have been more satisfying if he had second thoughts. There were lots of directions they could have gone. They could have had the Enterprise crew convince one of the other Franklin survivors that they were stepping over a line. Kirk could have done one of his standard ridiculous speeches about humanity. Even a bullshit, "your great grandson is on the station" twist would have felt more interesting.
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Aug 1, 2016 05:00
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Tunicate posted:Tobacco kills of the person paying you money, weapons kill off other people Quark had no problem selling or using all manner of undoubtedly addictive or harmful substances. He probably just didn't like people putting fire that close to their faces.
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Aug 1, 2016 05:02
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Baka-nin posted:We don't really see how the Federation overcame racism amongst humans either, the few times human racism is touched on with Sisko on DS9 its set in the 1950's which is in the past for them and the audience. Yeah we did. We learned that WW3 killed most everybody, and a few years after we had first contact, which led to the terra prime movement of "us vs. them". Lack of population to hate combined with aliens to shift distrust and predjudice toward would make for a significant change in interracial relations.
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Aug 1, 2016 05:20
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If they wanted to do a really low-budget show, I'd be all for something set directly after First Contact. Not like Enterprise, but something set solely on Earth/Vulcan showing the societal impact of the first couple years after the Vulcan arrival. I'd even settle for a book.
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Aug 1, 2016 05:26
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Evek posted:Pretty sure the only living people are the three survivors of the Franklin and the alien crews were their food. The rest of his army is the swarm drones. Yeah, I figured the only 'real' people in his army were himself, the big thug guy who killed Jayla's family, and the woman who lures Enterprise in.
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Aug 1, 2016 05:50
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Astroman posted:Oh I forgot my favorite joke/callback in the new movie: I liked it when Kirk said life on the ship was getting 'episodic'
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Aug 1, 2016 09:33
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I think there were only two Franklin survivors.
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Aug 1, 2016 14:59
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I watched a Matter of Perspective today, I must of confused it with another episode because I skipped it whenever it came up in the queue. It was actually okay as a procedural crime investigation episode. The minor variations were interesting, though I can't help but notice two things, Troi is at the hearings and yet she says that both Riker and his accuser are telling the truth as they remember it. So there's two possibilities here either Troi can't read these aliens, meaning this is yet another case of TNG wasting Troi's special abilities for plot convenience, or they are both being totally honest from their perspective (I guess this is what they were going for given the title). But if that's the case then it seems quite possible that Riker behaved pretty inappropriately. Riker's version of events are that the scientists wife came on to him and he chivalrously declined her advances. But the wife says he practically held her down while she begged him to stop. Riker even calls her version attempted rape. So that's a pretty big difference in perspective there. And if they both believe there version happened either one is delusional or the truth was a mix of the two. (Insert joke about Riker being sex fiend here) I wasn't expecting that. I was genuinely expecting it to be revealed that the widow was framing Riker for the murder of her husband and it was all some sort of bluff but she's completely innocent, meaning she did genuinely believe Riker tried to pin her down and force himself on her. I'm not surprised the show dropped this before the episode ended. Oh and apparently this episode says that a hologram created machine acts just like the real thing, its how they crack the case in the end and save Riker from the gas chamber. P.S. The episode opens with Picard painting a nude model, his painting looks like an ugly attempt at Picasso's cubism, and Data mercilessly tells him how poor and ugly a painting it is. This now one of my favourite Data moments.
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Aug 1, 2016 18:25
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I would like to see a Star Trek episode where the Enterprise travels to another planet to deposit cans on a planet that gives 10¢ instead of 5¢ per can
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Aug 1, 2016 18:28
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Baka-nin posted:The episode opens with Picard painting a nude model, his painting looks like an ugly attempt at Picasso's cubism, and Data mercilessly tells him how poor and ugly a painting it is. This now one of my favourite Data moments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7jbP1_H9sA
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Aug 1, 2016 18:31
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FlamingLiberal posted:I think there were only two Franklin survivors. Nope. 3. Edison's last captain's log says 2 other survivors
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Aug 1, 2016 19:04
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Gaz-L posted:Nope. 3. Edison's last captain's log says 2 other survivors The girl and the torturer, right?
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Aug 1, 2016 22:29
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I wish this guy still did stuff, all his edits were hilarious. The ALF ones are kind of amazing. ED: Oh poo poo, I just saw he is indeed back to doing stuff. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 00:45
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I love how in the newest one, the ominous bridge music is a track playing on Worf's console.
Roadie fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 02:15
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I don't remember Quark being aghast at selling tobacco but shocked that people would willingly buy poison, and if people would do that he could sell anything.
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Aug 2, 2016 09:50
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Baka-nin posted:Even if the show did explicitly state they were Socialists it would be wrong since socialism is a system were the workers control their own workplaces, and we clearly see that the Federation works on a hierarchy with officers, bosses and seniority of staff. Oh and the Bolians have great big galactic banks. I'd imagine racism among other humans probably went by the wayside when they learned that space aliens are real so people started hating them instead. HIJK posted:I bet this was one of the greatest regrets of his life. He was friends with L. Ron Hubbard, after all...
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Aug 2, 2016 14:43
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WickedHate posted:So Gene's Federation future is meant to convince us that peace and love and socialism rock, but the existence of the Ferengi being a power with roughly equivalent tech evidently means that unrestrained capitalism works just fine too. I would like to think this is why the Ferengi flubbed as the big villain. The Federation is set up so that everything the Ferengi embodied is past the humans, vulcans, everyone from "Encounter at Farpoint" onwards. The future we have to look forward to is one where petty grievances and greed are simply a thing of the past. A bad joke to be discarded. Of course I know it's really because their makeup looked silly.
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Aug 2, 2016 17:21
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Quark was not terribly successful by Ferangi standards. He complains pretty frequently about family that are doing significantly better than him. I think he has a brother who was an arm's dealer and owns a moon. He lets his conscience, care for family (see: Rom), and his like of people get in hit way of making a profit.
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Aug 2, 2016 17:35
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Skeesix posted:Of course I know it's really because their makeup looked silly. Well, it didn't help, but Ferangi were threatening on occasion, mostly individuals. The writing with them being crack goblins who sneer and snarl about women wearing clothes(  Gene) is what did them in. That and the fact that the whole anti-capitalist message wasn't as accepted or well executed as the much easier cold war parallels of the Klingons and Romulans. No one likes the  "we're past all that" crew who has no conflicts with each other ever and the Ferangi were the embodiment of that idea.
WickedHate fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 17:38
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Rhyno posted:Deep Space Nine 6x22 "the Valiant." The worst part of that episode to me is how Nog didn't use his authority as an actual real officer (albeit a pretty new one) and order them to quit acting like retards. loving cadets.
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Aug 2, 2016 17:41
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Nitrousoxide posted:Quark was not terribly successful by Ferangi standards. He complains pretty frequently about family that are doing significantly better than him. He's not stupendously wealthy, no, but he has a solid business with a good income which lets him employ people and even take care of his widowed mother. Cousin Gaela owned a moon, sure, but he was in a phenomenally risky business and eventually lost it all. Quark is a solid ferengi, the backbone of a stable economy.
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Aug 2, 2016 17:48
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Wasn't Gaela an arms dealer
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Aug 2, 2016 17:51
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Fister Roboto posted:The worst part of that episode to me is how Nog didn't use his authority as an actual real officer (albeit a pretty new one) and order them to quit acting like retards. Because a) Nog was too young, inexperienced and hungry for approval to do that; and b)as much as the Red Squad kids paid lipservice to following orders and the chain of command, they abandoned that the second they decided to disregard the actual captain's final order, and it would be one officer against like a hundred brainwashed cadets.
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Aug 2, 2016 17:56
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He didn't even try though. I agree that it's in character for him and "good" in that context, but it's still frustrating as heck.
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Aug 2, 2016 17:59
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:He's not stupendously wealthy, no, but he has a solid business with a good income which lets him employ people and even take care of his widowed mother. Cousin Gaela owned a moon, sure, but he was in a phenomenally risky business and eventually lost it all. Quark is a solid ferengi, the backbone of a stable economy. And by human standards, sure, he's got a nice gig going, but Ferangi don't "settle".
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Aug 2, 2016 18:26
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Fister Roboto posted:The worst part of that episode to me is how Nog didn't use his authority as an actual real officer (albeit a pretty new one) and order them to quit acting like retards. Didn't the acting captain say some bullshit about being the real captain as long as they're out of contact? I don't think that would have stuck even if he'd tried.
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Aug 2, 2016 18:27
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I think the really frustrating thing about the episode is that at the end Nog tells Jake to tell both sides of the story or whatever instead of doubling down on his (correct) opinion that Watters was a terrible captain who got everybody killed.
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