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well this thread has taken a bad turn.Coldwar timewarp posted:It's about authoritarian regimes having similar problems due to focus on political reliability over competence. It doesn't need to be racist or orientalist. It is a trend, not a rule, and obviously there are exceptions. I think national/religious liberation movements tend to allow the best to rise to the top more effectively. this. authoritarian regimes/governments want lickspittle unthinking officers who will follow central commands orders without question. when poo poo goes wrong, said officers will throw the blame anywhere but themselves so they dont get sacked or shot. its been that way since the dawn of man.
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Sep 3, 2016 22:07
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Any news on the upcoming political schisms occuring over Karimov's not-yet-cold corpse in Uzbekistan?
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Sep 3, 2016 22:32
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computer parts posted:Culture in general actually. The whole "face" thing is just a weird dogwhistle. The whole "face" thing is not a weird dogwhistle, it's a cultural fact. Shut up, you do a disservice to people trying to fight against actual racism by muddying the waters with nonsense. In other, middle east news, I have no idea what to think of this, but I love the title: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/strange-love-affair-putin-and-netanyahu-1736252238
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Sep 3, 2016 22:40
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Grouchio posted:Any news on the upcoming political schisms occuring over Karimov's not-yet-cold corpse in Uzbekistan? Not easy at all to get news out of the country ruled by one of the most repressive regimes in the world. I'm guessing that the workings of the regime will remain opaque to outsiders, the succession crisis will be solved by a series of assassinations and purges, and someone will eventually come to the fore. Or, the obvious choice will consolidate power with relatively little bloodshed or drama. In any case, it will be very difficult to find the truth of it.
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Sep 3, 2016 22:43
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Play posted:The whole "face" thing is not a weird dogwhistle, it's a cultural fact. Shut up, you do a disservice to people trying to fight against actual racism by muddying the waters with nonsense. Putin supports right-wing parties. See Trump, See Turkey, see the political machinery of the 'rebels' he supports in the Ukraine. The fact that all these people tend to verge on fascism or are literal fascists is not incidental to why he supports them. Play posted:Not easy at all to get news out of the country ruled by one of the most repressive regimes in the world. I'm guessing that the workings of the regime will remain opaque to outsiders, the succession crisis will be solved by a series of assassinations and purges, and someone will eventually come to the fore. Or, the obvious choice will consolidate power with relatively little bloodshed or drama. In any case, it will be very difficult to find the truth of it. I was thinking the same thing. Considering how Central Asian politics seem to have been run since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, I'm willing to bet there's going to be a messy, but opaque power struggle that will result in the 'election' of a new president, and things will carry on as they always have. The only real opposition to the Uzbeki government are jihadists loosely linked with Al-Qaeda. A Festivus Miracle fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Sep 3, 2016 |
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Sep 3, 2016 22:46
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-vd7YXev1Q Nice video on the number of destroyed armored vehicles around the Airforce college. A month of trying to retake the college, and the only thing the government has to show for it is a graveyard of Soviet vehicles.
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Sep 3, 2016 22:54
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A White Guy posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-vd7YXev1Q From the various videos it looks like it's been at least 4 BMPs, 1 BMP ambulance and a armored recovery vehicle. Has there been any confirmation as to who got killed in that Gazelle shootdown yesterday?
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Sep 4, 2016 00:04
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rear end struggle posted:I noticed something in a new TOW video from Hama. And one is a binocular set (although it looks like the explosion blows the lenses off). You can see someone moving around behind that, too. The video is from a very long distance away so I'd be wary of making any definitive conclusions. The guy between them and the gun is waving his arm too. Maybe he's relaying instructions from the spotters to the gunner? BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Sep 4, 2016 |
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Sep 4, 2016 00:18
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A number of BMPs were also hit on the road out of frame, and there's been hit on some tanks there as well but they either weren't kills or the frames were recovered. Also should be 1 or 2 behind the building, at the corner of the next building into the compound.
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Sep 4, 2016 00:19
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Play posted:The whole "face" thing is not a weird dogwhistle, it's a cultural fact. Perhaps but it's hardly a uniquely Oriental trait, shared by easterners from Lebanon to Japan but somehow absent from Europe, Africa and the Americas. People don't like humiliation, people don't like to appear as incompetent buffoons, people care about the esteem and respect of their peers, even in the west. DesperateDan posted:If it works even a few times, uselessly expended hostile tow's for the cost of a few uniforms- it's not a bad exchange. It's hardly clausewitz but not exactly abu hajaar level either. Middle East Thread of Despair: The Clausewitz-Abu Hajaar spectrum
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Sep 4, 2016 00:25
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Cat Mattress posted:Perhaps but it's hardly a uniquely Oriental trait, shared by easterners from Lebanon to Japan but somehow absent from Europe, Africa and the Americas. Yes that's entirely true, but the extent is completely different. I've lived and worked in various countries in Asia, this isn't just something I picked up from the internet. Of course the concept of saving face is something that exists in all cultures, it's basically an allegory of shame and conflict. But whether its a convenient fact or not, it works differently in China and, to a lesser extent, in the middle east. I would argue that the Chinese version is dictated by both cultural norms and the political system, whereas in the middle east the political/economic/tribal/patronage systems are the main root causes. No, I'm not prepared to write a thesis on this, but to pretend it doesn't exist is just silly. I do NOT agree with that original paper about Arab militaries, to be clear. I think the cultural basis of the problem is slight, the most important variable being the political-military system. All militaries need hierarchies, but if alternate systems are not in place to expose corruption, incompetence, hoarding of technical knowledge, etc., the whole thing can fall apart. The culture of the west is in many ways more open and more, dare I say, meritocratic. Millenia-old cultural values mixed with authoritarianism in China has produced something much different, and to deny that is ridiculous. This is no Samuel Huntington nonsense, it's just an acknowledgement of the incredible cultural diversity that we have on this planet. I don't have enough knowledge on the topic to lecture about the strengths and weaknesses of Arab armies, and that article is ridiculously trying to pin the blame on something it doesn't even understand. However, refusing to acknowledge the difference in socio-political mores between global populations is ridiculous, plain and simple.
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Sep 4, 2016 01:07
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Not speaking up to save face (or rear end) is a huge factor in western militaries as well. Look what happened to Shinseki when he dared to be honest about what it would take to properly invade Iraq, or to Antonio Taguba when he persisted in reporting his findings.
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Sep 4, 2016 01:35
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Cat Mattress posted:Middle East Thread of Despair: The
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Sep 4, 2016 01:40
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woke wedding drone posted:Not speaking up to save face (or rear end) is a huge factor in western militaries as well. Look what happened to Shinseki when he dared to be honest about what it would take to properly invade Iraq, or to Antonio Taguba when he persisted in reporting his findings. Shinseki was exonerated in the military establishment, if not politically. Despite being scapegoated by Rumsfeld and his chronies, the military establishment still incorporated those lessons during the Obama administration. That's the primary difference. Yes, poo poo rolls downhill and people get kicked out for saying the right things, but the key difference between the military of authoritarian dictatorships and democratic leaderships is that generals who screw up in authoritarian regimes end up before a firing squad, whereas generals who cock up in a democracy get forced out (and occasionally put on trial, but rarely imprisoned). Imagine what would happen to any major general that isn't Abu Hajaar speaking up to say "holy gently caress we're doing this whole war wrong". I'd bet money he would simply not exist anymore before the end of the day. And that's why the SAA/NDF is so comically ineffective and will remain so.
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Sep 4, 2016 02:51
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Sep 4, 2016 03:42
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woke wedding drone posted:Not speaking up to save face (or rear end) is a huge factor in western militaries as well. Look what happened to Shinseki when he dared to be honest about what it would take to properly invade Iraq, or to Antonio Taguba when he persisted in reporting his findings. Yeeeup, going against the established narrative can always be risky, and the people above them can always be peeved about it. The main difference is that in an open society, information will eventually come out. A huge part of it is having statistics and news sources you can trust. In authoritarian regimes, they write their own narrative, and if you go against it, you're gone. The middle east is a hive of rumor, conspiracy theories, sectarianism, chauvinism and distrust. The lack of open journalism and accountability, combined with nepotism, patronism, classism, and state-controlled society/media means that the truth is MUCH more relative than it is in other places. I realize that's a lot of isms but I'm going big picture here. Just look at how the Turkish public has been goaded into anti-Americanism by Erdogan and his lackey press. There's no proof whatsoever, and in America we would rightly laugh if someone said, for example, that Iceland was behind 9/11. This is changing though. Slowly. The Syrian Civil War is a pretty good example; as surveillance technology expands, and the world globalizes, it has been getting harder and harder to control the narrative no matter where you are.
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Sep 4, 2016 05:22
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Play posted:Yeeeup, going against the established narrative can always be risky, and the people above them can always be peeved about it. The main difference is that in an open society, information will eventually come out. A huge part of it is having statistics and news sources you can trust. In authoritarian regimes, they write their own narrative, and if you go against it, you're gone. The concept that 'face' is some only chinese concept is horseshit. The US military needs to change to some kind of modified representative system because it is notorious for elevating not the best but the most manipulative.
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Sep 4, 2016 05:26
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Torpor posted:The concept that 'face' is some only chinese concept is horseshit. The US military needs to change to some kind of modified representative system because it is notorious for elevating not the best but the most manipulative. Jesus Christ seriously? This isn't even the right thread for this and began with an article about Arab culture and how it effects militaries that I didn't even agree with. It's a matter of extent. If you don't think that the Chinese have different cultural mores than we do, go ahead thinking that. But to be honest, that is an act of purposeful ignorance. http://www.bbc.com/news/the-reporters-37157539 In other news, and because this is the Middle East thread, I was interested in this article. The basic premise is that as things are heating up and new, larger countries with new, larger backers are entering the fray, things are getting both more dangerous but also more promising agreement-wise. Eventually, these things will come to a head as Russian forces, Iranian forces, Turkish forces, and American forces begin confronting each other, and a line will be drawn. It seems logical that while the "great powers" are okay with a bunch of kurds and arabs running around the desert killing each other, they're not so okay with serious military confrontation with other powerful countries and the deaths of people that matter, such as U.S. soldiers. A deal would allow Putin to pull out and save "face" (see what I did there, guess it's not all Chinese), same for Erdogan and the U.S. It's the coming to an agreement that would be difficult. But a federalized Syria, once ISIS is done for, is looking more and more likely to me. Then again, speculation is worth jack poo poo and is really only an amusing exercise.
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Sep 4, 2016 05:35
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Play posted:Yeeeup, going against the established narrative can always be risky, and the people above them can always be peeved about it. The main difference is that in an open society, information will eventually come out. A huge part of it is having statistics and news sources you can trust. In authoritarian regimes, they write their own narrative, and if you go against it, you're gone. Turkey has an extremely long history of anti-foreign, including anti-American, conspiracism, it's not just Erdogan Play posted:Jesus Christ seriously? This isn't even the right thread for this and began with an article about Arab culture and how it effects militaries that I didn't even agree with. It's a matter of extent. If you don't think that the Chinese have different cultural mores than we do, go ahead thinking that. But to be honest, that is an act of purposeful ignorance. I'm not a racist, I'm a race realist
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Sep 4, 2016 07:15
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icantfindaname posted:Turkey has an extremely long history of anti-foreign, including anti-American, conspiracism, it's not just Erdogan Yes... that's what I said in my post about conspiracy theories in the middle east. You know, the one that you quoted quote:I'm not a racist, I'm a race realist Acknowledging the existence of culture and cultural mores is not racist. You are an idiot, my friend. Play fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Sep 4, 2016 |
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Sep 4, 2016 07:43
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Is the officially not racist take on the article that Arab militaries are actually highly effective, or is it that the article is basically right but needed more words making clear that many of the things discussed are also true in non-Arab places?
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Sep 4, 2016 07:59
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Best Friends posted:Is the officially not racist take on the article that Arab militaries are actually highly effective, or is it that the article is basically right but needed more words making clear that many of the things discussed are also true in non-Arab places? It's that culture, in the sense of a historically-rooted set of values and worldviews held by a group of people, has very little to do with the shittiness of Arab armies, and the actual reason is that dictatorships systematically purge competent officers from their armies to prevent coups
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Sep 4, 2016 08:09
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While you guys were being racists the SAA encircled Aleppo again.
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Sep 4, 2016 08:19
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rear end struggle posted:While you guys were being racists the SAA encircled Aleppo again. Ironically, the SAA around Aleppo are in danger of being cut off from Damascus by the rebel advance in Hama. Only one road supplies the Aleppo area, and that road is being pinched between ISIS and the rebel offensive. On that front, the rebels are having smashing success - they've almost pushed into Hama.
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Sep 4, 2016 08:23
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Jaish Al-Islam is pushing in the Duma area, NE of Damascus. Speaking of which, does anybody know what the deal is with the Al-Aswad neighborhood? Are they ISIS-aligned? Are they all racists?
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Sep 4, 2016 08:25
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i'm not sure about face, but i've heard on the grapevine that there's serious peasants & nobles culture in the oil-kingdom militaries; if you're from the right families, your qualifications and competence don't matter at all. Problems this cause are usually papered over with more spending. Arab militaries still seem to be more professional than that.
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Sep 4, 2016 08:36
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icantfindaname posted:It's that culture, in the sense of a historically-rooted set of values and worldviews held by a group of people, has very little to do with the shittiness of Arab armies, and the actual reason is that dictatorships systematically purge competent officers from their armies to prevent coups Hoo boy, wait till you hear about my views about cultural values and histories defining the window of possible political systems. But then again, I am literally nazi. A White Guy posted:Ironically, the SAA around Aleppo are in danger of being cut off from Damascus by the rebel advance in Hama. Only one road supplies the Aleppo area, and that road is being pinched between ISIS and the rebel offensive. On that front, the rebels are having smashing success - they've almost pushed into Hama. Eh, they'll get smashed by Russian air power like always I reckon.
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Sep 4, 2016 08:43
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Grouchio posted:How does one defend himself from a drone anyways?  mass produced explosive-immune bodyarmor.
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Sep 4, 2016 09:17
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Play posted:Yeeeup, going against the established narrative can always be risky, and the people above them can always be peeved about it. The main difference is that in an open society, information will eventually come out. A huge part of it is having statistics and news sources you can trust. In authoritarian regimes, they write their own narrative, and if you go against it, you're gone. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality." Play posted:Just look at how the Turkish public has been goaded into anti-Americanism by Erdogan and his lackey press. There's no proof whatsoever, and in America we would rightly laugh if someone said, for example, that Iceland was behind 9/11. I remember 2003, and how easily America was convinced that Saddam was behind 9/11, and how easily a campaign of virulent francophobia was orchestrated when Chirac called the Americans on their complete total bullshit. I'm pretty sure that if Bush had really wanted to invade Iceland and had claimed that they were behind 9/11, you'd have eaten that hook, line and sinker like the uncritical thoughtless morons who had likewise eaten hook line and sinker the lies that France telling you not to put your dick in the meatgrinder was a betrayal. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Sep 4, 2016 |
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Sep 4, 2016 10:31
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Friendly Humour posted:Hoo boy, wait till you hear about my views about cultural values and histories defining the window of possible political systems. But then again, I am literally nazi. So there's no direct, convincing evidence in this case or in others linking innate culture to political outcomes, yet you're extremely insistent that such a thing could happen. I look forwards to you beliefs on biological brain differences between races and genders and their potential effect on intelligence icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Sep 4, 2016 |
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Sep 4, 2016 10:42
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:i'm not sure about face, but i've heard on the grapevine that there's serious peasants & nobles culture in the oil-kingdom militaries; if you're from the right families, your qualifications and competence don't matter at all. Problems this cause are usually papered over with more spending. Arab militaries still seem to be more professional than that. They love the people and the country but it's very difficult to get anything done without connections to the right people and the right families. And if you're Kurdish, your family name matters a lot about what you can and can't do. The peshmerga was a creaky, top-heavy and fief-like organization(s) that got kicked around pretty badly after Mosul went under. There's a lot of chubby "brigadiers" who have the job for nepostic reasons. And even still there's bloody disasters on the front line that aren't known about because there is no free press, and access to foreign journalists is tightly restricted and comes with unwritten rules attached. Try to avoid mentioning the summary executions of war prisoners or ethnic cleansing unless you'd like your trip cut short. State surveillance of telecommunications is also pervasive and people can get into unfortunate accidents for causing too many problems. But you can see the cold logic of it because you rarely see ISIS VBIEDs in Erbil. Not for lack of trying either. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Sep 4, 2016 |
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Sep 4, 2016 10:54
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Uzbekistan chat: Nigmatilla Yuldashev is now the acting president of that country, but is a virtual unknown to westerners, and practically unknown inside Uzbekistan. Speculation is that Look at this loving handsome guy: 
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Sep 4, 2016 10:58
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icantfindaname posted:So there's no direct, convincing evidence in this case or in others linking innate culture to political outcomes, yet you're extremely insistent that such a thing could happen. I look forwards to you beliefs on biological brain differences between races and genders and their potential effect on intelligence There are no biological differences between the races, their brains, or their intelligence. They are all exactly the same.
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Sep 4, 2016 12:24
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:There are no biological differences between the races, their brains, or their intelligence. They are all exactly the same.  you'll ruin his righteous indignation at this rate
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Sep 4, 2016 12:43
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:There are no biological differences between the races, their brains, or their intelligence. They are all exactly the same. And even if they weren't, individual variations would still make the  generalizations useless.
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Sep 4, 2016 13:08
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https://twitter.com/ahlalsham3/status/772404368855347200 Who says airpower can't win wars?
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Sep 4, 2016 14:24
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A White Guy posted:https://twitter.com/ahlalsham3/status/772404368855347200 "Win"
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Sep 4, 2016 14:34
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Peace talks for Aleppo have stalled. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/04/syria-peace-talks-us-and-russia-stall-g20?CMP=twt_gu
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Sep 4, 2016 14:37
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Potrzebie posted:"Win" Better a king of burnt out ruin, than no king at all, right?
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Sep 4, 2016 14:49
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https://twitter.com/MIG29_/status/772367512604405761 https://twitter.com/TheInsideSourc/status/772376272500428800 Looks like the artillery college may have been captured in Aleppo.
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Sep 4, 2016 15:14
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