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make mockery is Tollymain and you're stupid if you argued with him. Post better.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:00
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Has anyone laid out a fully formed proposal that could be implemented in the first 100 days if the stars align and the Dems control all three branches? Because pushing UHC will be ACA 2.0 and 2022 will likely see one chamber of congress be lost, so they need to have the idea completely worked out and ready for introduction on day 1.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:05
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Cugel the Clever posted:Nothing to see here, just the POTUS retweeting a white nationalist, QAnon nutjob two days after a massive Islamophobic terrorist attack: Welp, I read the replies. 
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Mar 18, 2019 01:06
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Edit: never mind, if you don't bother reading it once, you won't bother reading it twice, but slower with smaller words.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:19
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Cugel the Clever posted:Nothing to see here, just the POTUS retweeting a white nationalist, QAnon nutjob two days after a massive Islamophobic terrorist attack: Days like this are tough because it's hard to know if it's more damaging to have an attentive Trump doing things, or a boring Trump just shitposting on twitter all day. Answer's probably yes.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:23
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bird cooch posted:Edit: never mind, if you don't bother reading it once, you won't bother reading it twice, but slower with smaller words. lol
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Mar 18, 2019 01:26
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holocaust bloopers posted:terrain whoop whoop
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Mar 18, 2019 01:52
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ded posted:Beto lost to Raphael Cruz. He is a non-person in politics. Losing once doesn't mean that you're forever done, but the whole point of a mediocre dem from texas is lost if he can't swing their EC votes
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Mar 18, 2019 01:53
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bird cooch posted:Edit: never mind, if you don't bother reading it once, you won't bother reading it twice, but slower with smaller words. lol the fact that people disagree with your (lovely and wrong) position doesn't mean we're all the idiots and you're the only Person of Knowledge that has come to bequeath us with the Facts of Life* It's not that we don't understand your position, it's that it's fuckin' wrong and actively works in the service of the folks *against* these changes * Facts of Life may not be facts at all and may instead serve the current power systems while dismissing the material reality before us.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:56
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Professor Bling posted:lol the fact that people disagree with your (lovely and wrong) position doesn't mean we're all the idiots and you're the only Person of Knowledge that has come to bequeath us with the Facts of Life* So go ahead and do a takedown of one of my responses before the shitposting started. Make sure you get the whole thing. I took the time to answer the question in full, take the time to respond in full. Go ahead show me where I'm wrong and how it can be done correctly. \/ literally this\/ bird cooch fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 01:59
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Professor Bling posted:lol the fact that people disagree with your (lovely and wrong) position doesn't mean we're all the idiots and you're the only Person of Knowledge that has come to bequeath us with the Facts of Life* I don’t think he was saying that it’s something that’s impossible, or that shouldn’t be tried. I legit think he was trying to talk about asking how to deal with the obstructions that would come up legislatively and all. Someone just above asked if there had been a 100 day plan put forward by some candidate, which seems to be the same kind of route of questions that bird cooch was asking. Bird cooch, to me, does not seem to be questioning why - as everyone is jumping on him for. He’s asking HOW. Other countries provide us the framework for the system, bird cooch seems to be asking how do we get that framework in place without immediately having it shredded apart. Not why should we do it.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:01
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Professor Bling posted:lol the fact that people disagree with your (lovely and wrong) position doesn't mean we're all the idiots and you're the only Person of Knowledge that has come to bequeath us with the Facts of Life* I don't necessarily agree with everything bird cooch said, but I feel like you're responding to him as if he attacked you personally. He didn't come in here proposing death camps for poors (I think, I might have missed it) so I don't understand the hostility towards him.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:13
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windshipper posted:I don’t think he was saying that it’s something that’s impossible, or that shouldn’t be tried. I legit think he was trying to talk about asking how to deal with the obstructions that would come up legislatively and all. Someone just above asked if there had been a 100 day plan put forward by some candidate, which seems to be the same kind of route of questions that bird cooch was asking. This literally started because he lept to Beto's defense about how single payer healthcare shouldn't be a thing we try for
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Mar 18, 2019 02:20
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Eej posted:This literally started because he lept to Beto's defense about how single payer healthcare shouldn't be a thing we try for bird cooch posted:I don't mind his actual answer I sure stopped that bullet. Conversation actually started talking about Beto and Buttigieg. I was just responding because I read the article. And I just quoted from the article that a lot of people didn't bother reading. I'm not a huge fan of Beto. He's just kinda ok. I went into that too. the sort of conversation is really awkward and it could be totally headed off by just reading the thread and not projecting onto me. I'm pretty plain-spoken, and if my style is kind of funny that's because this is all voice to text. because as I also mentioned before I am literally a disabled dude dependent on the VA for which healthcare means a lot.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:33
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bird cooch posted:I don't mind his actual answer Eej posted:This literally started because he lept to Beto's defense about how single payer healthcare shouldn't be a thing we try for No.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:35
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That Works posted:Lol nah. What he's saying is that you don't throw a loving hail mary on first down after receiving the kickoff. You have to work within the confines of our political system, and those confines dictate that you don't and WON'T have the legislative and/or executive firepower to ramrod such a drastic change in the near future. Certainly not with the country as politically divided as it is. For some reason Kennedy's moon speech was brought up. Yes, it's amazing that we pulled that off in less than a decade. But it still took deliberately planned and implemented steps to get there. For some reason you seem to be thinking this poo poo needs to happen immediately, all at once, before the following election. Guess what: it won't. Even if you find that kind of a candidate, and that candidate somehow gets elected on those promises, THEY WON'T GET IT DONE THAT FAST. Unless the left of the left (not just the Democratic Party, but the left half of the party) takes control of both houses and the White House, you are pushing a guaranteed-to-fail strategy. And that kind of poo poo is what's going to wipe out whatever (D) gains Trump's insanity provides, because for all their talk and talk and talk, there's no way the Democrats can deliver on a plan like that. They will fail, and the GOP will point and laugh aaaaaaaall the way back into power. But the party won't even put up a candidate like that, so your all-or-nothing approach leaves you out in the cold before the loving primaries. You want to give these policies a shot? You start smaller...Medicare for children is a loving brilliant move. Kids get healthcare for free? Everyone loves that. Parents love it. Kids approaching voting age love it. After 4 years or so, everybody has stopped arguing against it (look at how united the parties were when WIC was under threat). It becomes an assault on children to speak against it. Now you look at raising that age from 18 to 25 or whatever to help poor college students and hs grads working low-wage jobs. Companies love it because it gives them a way around providing healthcare; parents love it because of the same reasons they loved it before. By the time the first kids are aging out of that coverage, there's an entire generation that doesn't remember NOT having insurance. And in their early 20s learning how the world works, they are potential voters who do NOT want to lose their healthcare. We're about a decade in, and the road is paved for a debate on not just universal healthcare, but one of the better options for universal healthcare in this country; and a LOT OF VOTERS are personally engaged. Or you can complain centrists and how if only someone had the will to say it, we could've gone to the moon in 2-4 years. Edit: And Kennedy chose landing on the moon because NASA's view was that there was no way the US could beat the Russians to having orbital laboratories, or probably even orbiting the moon. It would take several steps to catch up and overtake them, so a landing was the best chance. bird cooch posted:the sort of conversation is really awkward and it could be totally headed off by just reading the thread and not projecting onto me. I've got bad news for you about this thread. Godholio fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 02:39
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Godholio posted:What he's saying is that you don't throw a loving hail mary on first down after receiving the kickoff. For some reason Kennedy's moon speech was brought up. Yes, it's amazing that we pulled that off in less than a decade. But it still took deliberately planned and implemented steps to get there. For some reason you seem to be thinking this poo poo needs to happen immediately, all at once, before the following election. It needs to be treated with the urgency it deserves and the attitude that it is far less difficult than things we have accomplished. Compromising down a weaker ACA that is getting further dismantled did not work. Centrist policies held back a full fix that nearly every other advanced nation made. So yes, push for any and all plans you can carry out and if you get full control then ram a hail Mary policy down the throats of the minority without hesitation.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:46
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You're not going to get 60 senate seats. NEXT.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:47
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It is a conversation we need to have, and yes the candidates should be for single payer, our current system is untenable and cruel. We do need to talk about the reality of veeeery entrenched capital that will push back hard, along with prob not having a supermajority in the senate most likely. Along with all of the legislative and legal roadblocks that will be thrown up, then supported by the judges Schumer has been letting through without a fight. Medicare for all will not be a quick process. Even if there was a coherent plan to implement all of this in 2021 on day 1, it will be a poo poo show. Also healthcare is a huge chunk of our economy, which is hosed up in its own right, but it needs to be addressed. Realistically like 1/3rd of dems with any power actually “capital S support” M4A. The rest are just reading the wind and paying lip service while the mouth pieces muddle the debate with things like access and affordability to give them cover. I’m not saying don’t try, because lives literally hang in the balance, but temper your expectations and be ready to be disappointed. Realistically I don’t see it happening in under a decade. I’d love to be wrong, I hope I’m wrong, but too many people think anything left of the Gadsden flag is socialism.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:51
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Godholio posted:You're not going to get 60 senate seats. Declare a national emergency to fund an interim program then. Throw as much overreach as you want at it or break out guillotine for all I care. Godholio posted:NEXT loving lol
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Mar 18, 2019 02:55
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Medicare for kids is socialism, rewards irresponsible parents, teaches everyone to expect government handouts, and who's going to pay for it? Incrementalism loses more people than it gains, the usual suspects will use the exact same criticisms, and you don't win a tug-of-war by planning out a consensus position.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:56
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That Works posted:It needs to be treated with the urgency it deserves and the attitude that it is far less difficult than things we have accomplished. Compromising down a weaker ACA that is getting further dismantled did not work. Centrist policies held back a full fix that nearly every other advanced nation made. Even if you get 60 Senate seats, which you aren't, there is no way that this policy can be fully implemented in 2 years. Actually about a year. That's about how long you have, if that. By then the next election cycle will be starting to gear up and the Republicans will be running against this without the effects ever hitting the streets. Just the costs. If the first term, hell if the entire Obama presidency taught us anything it's that the voting public needs to be fed a steady trickle of wins or else their whims shift. America is a big ship. It takes a steady hand steering it in one direction to make it turn. If two different people take turns spinning the wheel wildly in either direction every two to four years the ship keeps going straight. this isn't a centrist argument. this isn't saying keep doing the same thing it is literally the opposite of that. the argument is that this is all long-term. everything in government is long term if you want to build. Tearing down is easy. think of how long it takes to destroy something versus how long it takes to build something. bird cooch fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 02:58
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That Works posted:Declare a national emergency to fund an interim program then. Throw as much overreach as you want at it or break out guillotine for all I care. Those words don't mean what you think they mean.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:01
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Honestly I'm surprised that 8 years of obama didn't teach, "You should actually shoot for the sun, because if you build a moonshot program and launch it, republicans will steadily sabotage that poo poo until you have something that eventually resembles a weather balloon and isn't out right cancelled, because hicks finally see benefits a few years later and start to get mad that they cancelled the weather balloon program and not the moonshot program the black man got passed" Edit: I'm very sleepy and in case it wasn't clear, what I'm trying to say is. pass something big and sweeping enough that even when the brainworms come back and sweep republicans into office they can only turn Universal Healthcare into something like Medicare for all, then the hicks get their healthcare and will be angry at the republicans for trying to kill Medicare for all. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 03:12
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Defenestrategy posted:Honestly I'm surprised that 8 years of obama didn't teach, "You should actually shoot for the sun, because if you build a moonshot program and launch it, republicans will steadily sabotage that poo poo until you have something that eventually resembles a weather balloon and isn't out right cancelled, because hicks finally see benefits a few years later and start to get mad that they cancelled the weather balloon program and not the moonshot program the black man got passed" The irony is that the GOP is piecemealing the death of the ACA, because they loving get it. A lot of the country got uneasy when they started talking about repealing it wholesale, including much of their base. So they backed off. Instead, they've taken smaller steps that are going to lead to it being less effective in a year or two, at which point they can accurately point say "Look, it's not working!" Defenestrategy posted:Edit: I'm very sleepy and in case it wasn't clear, what I'm trying to say is. pass something big and sweeping enough YOU CAN'T. The problem isn't "bad idea" it's that you legislatively can't do it in the very short period of time that you have power (IF you even have enough power, which is extremely unlikely).
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Mar 18, 2019 03:22
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You'll never win enough seats to try for a moonshot program if you
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Mar 18, 2019 03:25
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The Democrats will never get 60 seats again in this generation and probably not the next, so either you accept Democrats not being able to pass any legislation for the next 30 years, or you shred the fillibuster. When Republicans have 50%+1 power, for some reason the decorum police and lessons of 8th grade government class don't apply to them, and they get what they want just fine.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:25
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Shoot for the moon? End up among the stars? gently caress guys that's really hard, and you're not getting that done in this political atmosphere. Why don't we focus or efforts into putting astronauts on the highest elevator in my city, which will get them 108 stories closer to space, and is actually achievable with minimal risk to my re-election campaign! And if they don't make it at least they ended up in Vegas!
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Mar 18, 2019 03:26
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I feel like sensible people are hosed no matter what we do.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:30
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I'm just hoping we'll have universal health Care before I punch my own ticket at 65
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Mar 18, 2019 03:33
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The United States federal minimum wage is $7.25 and people have to spend hundreds on premiums or thousands in fees. Fortunately most Democrats support those two things but lol if you don't think we badly need some radical loving changes. Billions of dollars are wasted in our sick joke of a healthcare system. At this point I'd be happy to nationalize it.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:40
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Cat Army 
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Casimir Radon posted:I feel like sensible people are hosed no matter what we do. Pretty much yeah. In ten years, we'll all look back and marvel at how good it still was now. Then go back to eating beans next to the fire barrel.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:41
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Doesn't the idea of UHC/single payer have something like a 60+ % approval rating? I guess it's frustrating because an idea that has widespread appeal gets laughed out of the room because the adults at the table don't want to upset the dudes writing them checks. Another question: I remember a year or two back reading that something like 35% of the country identified as Republicans, have we seen any recent change in that number, or any new studies? I know that the rural parts of the country are becoming more conservative, but also steadily losing population, I guess the senate is always gonna be hosed?
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Mar 18, 2019 03:42
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Godholio posted:You're not going to get 60 senate seats. NEXT. It's extremely unsettling how you guys have just accepted that it's impossible to save the lives of the people who will die because they don't have money for healthcare and maybe some day in the future they won't have to die but until then they just gotta suck it up and die because it's too hard
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Mar 18, 2019 03:45
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Casimir Radon posted:I feel like sensible people are hosed no matter what we do. I am. Even if it was passed tomorrow and put into effect on Monday by the magical wishing Stone it wouldn't do me any good. That doesn't stop me from wanting better things for the people who come after me. Wasabi the J posted:Shoot for the moon? End up among the stars? That's really prescient if people actually understand that if you only make it halfway to the Moon then everybody dies because space is a lifeless void in which life cannot survive. Best Friends posted:The Democrats will never get 60 seats again in this generation and probably not the next, so either you accept Democrats not being able to pass any legislation for the next 30 years, or you shred the fillibuster. When Republicans have 50%+1 power, for some reason the decorum police and lessons of 8th grade government class don't apply to them, and they get what they want just fine. Okay so if the Democrats managed to get 50 +1 seats in the Senate they could just go ahead and shred the filibuster right? quote:According to the Supreme Court's ruling in United States v. Ballin (1892), Senate rules can be changed by a simple majority vote. Nevertheless, under current Senate rules, a rule change could itself be filibustered, requiring two-thirds of senators who are present and voting to end debate. gently caress. Guys this is a lot harder than I thought. Maybe we should just have a dictator. Eej posted:It's extremely unsettling how you guys have just accepted that it's impossible to save the lives of the people who will die because they don't have money for healthcare and maybe some day in the future they won't have to die but until then they just gotta suck it up and die because it's too hard it's extremely upsetting how you guys can't just accept that wishing for a really hard won't make it so and that any conversation about how to figure out how to actually do something like this is seen as a compromise because unfortunately under our system of government it is impossible to save 100% of people, no matter how much we might want to. All we can do is the best under the current system until we are in power enough to change the entire system. Which we are, so we can't, and no amount of angsty low thought replies will change that until the Senate is nullified, more states are added or there is a constitutional convention that will not completely gently caress the entire country up because if you take a quick little peep AT electoral maps you would see that a constitutional convention would not be controlled by the Democrats in 2021 no matter how much we want it to. bird cooch fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 03:45
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bird cooch posted:I am. Even if it was passed tomorrow and put into effect on Monday by the magical wishing Stone it wouldn't do me any good. That doesn't stop me from wanting better things for the people who come after me. Let them filibuster, it worked the Civil Right Act
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Mar 18, 2019 03:47
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That Works posted:It needs to be treated with the urgency it deserves and the attitude that it is far less difficult than things we have accomplished. Compromising down a weaker ACA that is getting further dismantled did not work. Centrist policies held back a full fix that nearly every other advanced nation made. And it won’t work unless we suddenly end up in magical christmas land where not only do the Dems get 60 seats in the Senate and keep the house, but they’re progressive enough to not gently caress it up. THEN they keep those seats in 2022 after the initial wave attacks by the GOP against vulnerable senators and we don’t have a repeat of obstructing congress for the last 6 years of Obama. I doubt anyone sane doesn’t agree that UHC is where we NEED to be, and that we need it yesterday. However the practical realities are that candidates need to start fleshing out the proposals NOW so they can go through congress during that first 100 days and set the tone. And so far I haven’t seen anyone, even Bernie, drop anything wholly formed and ready to go as day 1 legislation. But maybe I missed it and thus my question upthread. The steps approach laid out above where wave 1 is kids, the young adults, then MFA is likely the most realistic way of advancing the cause in the political system we have today. But again THAT needs to be crafted and ready to go very shortly after the election in order to maximize its chances of passing and becoming law. All of this ignores the inevitable judicial challenges that will occur when OK or AR’s AG files a challenge for <reason>
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Mar 18, 2019 03:47
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bird cooch posted:I am. Even if it was passed tomorrow and put into effect on Monday by the magical wishing Stone it wouldn't do me any good. That doesn't stop me from wanting better things for the people who come after me. I don't think John Roberts will decide to put the Dems in a position of needing to pack the court. Hey speaking of - didn't the filibuster get removed for Supreme Court nominees? Remind me, that got 67 votes, right? Best Friends fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 04:03
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Eej posted:It's extremely unsettling how you guys have just accepted that it's impossible to save the lives of the people who will die because they don't have money for healthcare and maybe some day in the future they won't have to die but until then they just gotta suck it up and die because it's too hard It’s because they have access to employer provided healthcare  FYGM incarnate.
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Mar 18, 2019 04:03
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Eej posted:It's extremely unsettling how you guys have just accepted that it's impossible to save the lives of the people who will die because they don't have money for healthcare and maybe some day in the future they won't have to die but until then they just gotta suck it up and die because it's too hard I think the unsettling part is the vast amount of dumbfucks out there that will vote against their own best interests for some single issue because they're easily fooled and want to believe they're going to win the lottery tomorrow. It's not unsettling, the pessimism should be expected at this point. Until the boomers are dead, not a few or some, the majority, we're pretty well screwed thanks to all the rigged poo poo. Unfucking gerrymandering is going to take time, and that's probably one of the biggest hurdles to jump because republican cuntstains have been dicking with the balance on that for decades. I'm pessimistic because I was dumbass enlisted and watched the army and VA grind to halts over metaphorical anthills while loving everyone within earshot. After a while, you begin to cheer for the dog eating its own rear end instead of standing back in horror.
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Mar 18, 2019 04:07
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