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RBA Starblade posted:This is what I was thinking of. I can only imagine the hell that would be working as an "actor" there. Probably about what working at Colonial Williamsburg is like.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:29
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There isn't really any anti-corporate element in any of this, it's a fine thing of course but it's not what's happening here, which to me is just a bog standard "even Disney isn't safe, so you, <entity much smaller than Disney> better think twice before opposing right wing rhetoric and policy regarding anything 'woke'". As someone has said already, it's about making shifting to being inclusive and diverse have a downside instead of just being a free and easy PR win. Naturally, it's also red meat for his base so they'll keep voting for him and people like him. What's the worst case scenario here, it succeeds and creates a huge mess for them to ignore and pass off to someone else? Like how is this any different than demanding extraction industries and not taxpayers build and maintain the roads to the locations that they are the exclusive user of and tear up with incredible speed? I hear that a lot. Gumball Gumption posted:Also the funniest/saddest part of all of this is how Disney never even cared. They were happy to say nothing about the bill until they got too much public heat for not saying anything. We have to stop DeSantis from taking Disney's special status because he wants to punish them because they felt forced into saying something and if Disney does lose special status it will primarily punish normal people instead of Disney. It's just an exhausting series of events that will punish the average person the most no matter the outcome. Yeah this came up in my mind with the Gina Carano poo poo. Like of course they knew all about how she was, she was given the boot because she was too stupid and too loud about it
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Apr 22, 2022 17:31
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Epic High Five posted:There isn't really any anti-corporate element in any of this, it's a fine thing of course but it's not what's happening here, which to me is just a bog standard "even Disney isn't safe, so you, <entity much smaller than Disney> better think twice before opposing right wing rhetoric and policy regarding anything 'woke'". No one else has one of these special tax districts so what are they going to do?
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Apr 22, 2022 17:33
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Epic High Five posted:Like how is this any different than demanding extraction industries and not taxpayers build and maintain the roads to the locations that they are the exclusive user of and tear up with incredible speed? I hear that a lot. this is a good point, RCID is like a giant impact fee on the environmental impact of disney world. disney maintains a higher standard of infrastructure than what the county is capable of building, because the county has to balance the political demands of voters with the additional burdens of public infrastructure. where bridges and drains across the country are crumbling because its hard to scrape together enough tax money to pay for it, disney can just say "i declare my own taxes to double" and fix it immediately. of course its doing this for the sake of maintaining the spotless aura of the magic kingdom and thus keep high profits, but thats a lot of bridges, pipes, and drains that the county doesn't have to bother with
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Apr 22, 2022 17:35
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Harold Fjord posted:No one else has one of these special tax districts so what are they going to do? Make them the target of the week for the howling masses that make up their base and use the law however they can to gently caress them over in any way they can and make their lives hell? It's one of the most beloved tactics for the right and there is zero political cost for them to deploy it anymore. Like I said it's not about the special tax district, it's about making people who oppose them suffer and using that to make it easier to make others suffer in future
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Apr 22, 2022 17:36
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Harold Fjord posted:I don't understand this line of reasoning, and you are far from the first to use it. Sorry, you're right, that was unclear and I should have made that its own statement. I only mean that supporting this also means supporting its follow-on effects. Clearly LALD is not raising anyone's taxes (and as pointed out, probably rents) to cover this themselves. Oracle posted:Probably about what working at Colonial Williamsburg is like. I guess, except 24/7 right? Unless they're just going to have a curfew so no nightlife, if it goes forward.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:37
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:what? no Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:the reason that line exists is to explain to people who think "well, why doesn't orange county just do a special tax on disney to pay for things?" because it legally can't, a county entity cannot single out specific parcels, uses, or organizations for special taxation rates. this is a great way for county officials to retaliate against people they don't like - "didn't vote for my proposal? gently caress you, your tax rate is now 50 mills, suck it" Cities and counties aren't allowed to levy income or corporate taxes and the state basically doesn't enforce its own corporate tax rate so 99% of companies pay no corporate income tax quote:Florida’s biggest businesses lobby hard against any changes that might compel them to pay more tax, arguing that every dollar the state collects from them is a dollar that they cannot invest themselves. They also spend millions to help elect politicians who agree: Records show the state’s two largest business-lobbying groups -- Associated Industries of Florida and the Florida Chamber of Commerce -- spent more than $30 million on Florida elections during the 2018 campaign. Disney gave $100,000 to one of DeSantis' superPACs by the way https://www.newsweek.com/ron-desantis-pac-disney-contributions-1699788 VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 17:40
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VitalSigns posted:Corporations are absolutely out there lobbying for statutory and constitutional limits on local government's ability to tax them, come on man. not by enforcing flat property taxation, a thing that exists in thousands of jursidictions since long before the existence of corporate lobbying VitalSigns posted:The law clearly goes beyond what you would need to stop counties from passing a "I don't like Mr Jones so he owes $50 million in special taxes" tax, so no. no? this is how property taxes traditionally work, like the concept of a millage rate is older than the united states i get that you want to find some way to blame corporations here but you're really just telling on yourself that you don't know how local government fund themselves or what they are allowed to do
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Apr 22, 2022 17:44
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Wait, what? I could have sworn I read it was in Florida. my bad. Well then they'll for sure capitulate. what are they going to do, move Disney world? Disney Land was first and then World came later. watch defunctland for more info/disney history stuff. or just wait for a goon to give you the tldr in a few lines instead of several halfhour video essays. Also my armchair/ city sim game degree says that amusement parks are even harder to take your ball and go somewhere else than airports, so Disney isnt going to Go Bender within 10 years.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:46
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RBA Starblade posted:Sorry, you're right, that was unclear and I should have made that its own statement. I only mean that supporting this also means supporting its follow-on effects. Clearly LALD is not raising anyone's taxes (and as pointed out, probably rents) to cover this themselves. Shift work. You know there are like 6-7 Cinderellas, Snow Whites, Goofys, whatever at any one time circulating the parks.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:46
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PhazonLink posted:Disney Land was first and then World came later. Not that it hasn't happened, though I imagine Disneyworld is a lot bigger and more developed than your average theme park. Though would be funny to have DeSantis go down as 'the man who drove away Disneyworld'.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:50
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Epic High Five posted:There isn't really any anti-corporate element in any of this, it's a fine thing of course but it's not what's happening here, which to me is just a bog standard "even Disney isn't safe, so you, <entity much smaller than Disney> better think twice before opposing right wing rhetoric and policy regarding anything 'woke'". As someone has said already, it's about making shifting to being inclusive and diverse have a downside instead of just being a free and easy PR win. Naturally, it's also red meat for his base so they'll keep voting for him and people like him. What's the worst case scenario here, it succeeds and creates a huge mess for them to ignore and pass off to someone else? Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:not by enforcing flat property taxation, a thing that exists in thousands of jursidictions since long before the existence of corporate lobbying Why did you do that?
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Apr 22, 2022 17:51
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The principle here is, quite obviously, "The Florida government shouldn't be able to retaliate against even extremely marginal support for queer people." It has nothing to do with Disney's actual stance or how sincere it is, the point is that they're intentionally being targeted to silence opposition, and it's baffling that anyone is incapable of seeing this.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:53
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VitalSigns posted:Interesting that you cut out the rest of the post pointing out that counties are banned from using other types of taxation like corporate tax and how Disney uses lobbying firms to weaken state taxation. i was trying to spare you the embarrassment of pointing out that you've mixed up income and property taxes, but if you're demanding that i comment on your mistake then, well... i guess? its ok for you to not understand what you're talking about, but when you declare your hostility to learning about the subject, i hope you can understand why people might disengage with you and your opinions. counties typically do not levy income taxes or specific taxes on corporations, this has long been a power reserved by the state of florida and not delegated to counties, and whether or not the state of florida has corporate-friendly taxation policies has nothing to do with counties levying taxes against property within their jurisdiction i mean this as politely as i can, you do not understand what you are talking about, and if you want to argue on that basis of continual ignorance i respectfully decline (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2022 17:54
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:i was trying to spare you the embarrassment of pointing out that you've mixed up income and property taxes, but if you're demanding that i comment on your mistake then, well... i guess? I didn't mix them up I pointed out that there are other ways to raise revenue that don't require allowing counties to target individuals with punitive taxes, and income taxes and corporate taxes are two examples of alternatives which are also banned for no real good reason. You should read what you're responding to a little more carefully especially if you're going to be this condescending about a misunderstanding on your part
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Apr 22, 2022 17:57
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One of the ways Texas has favored the wealthy and commercial property owners is by making it easier to challenge valuations, which obviously is going to favor larger landowners in the first place and also creates a ratchet down effect: one of the ways to do it is to compare your valuation to similar properties so any time another owner gets their valuation lowered it makes it easier for everyone else. I checked to see Florida has done anything like this and sure enough it has (under former governor and Republican-turned-Democrat Charlie Crist no less), so that's probably also contributing to the problem. It's very cost effective for a big commercial real estate owner to pay law firms to score them huge valuation reductions, tilting the proportion of property tax paid by rich versus poor toward the poor, and thanks to laws requiring uniform property rates, the only way for counties to make up the loss of revenue from the wealthy is to raise everyone's taxes at once, would be shocked if Disney's commercial property weren't valued at an artificially low rate for tax purposes. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 18:32
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Arist posted:The principle here is, quite obviously, "The Florida government shouldn't be able to retaliate against even extremely marginal support for queer people." This conversation is pretty disheartening but at least it dispels any false hope that the left is anything but a useless myopic circle jerk that will get decisively owned by even the most obvious political moves. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) MixMasterMalaria fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 18:36
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VitalSigns posted:the only way for counties to make up the loss of revenue from the wealthy is to raise everyone's taxes at once, would be shocked if Disney's commercial property weren't valued at an artificially low rate for tax purposes. gee this might make a lot of sense if disney wasn't already in their own special tax district where they control their own property tax rates i admire that you're googling how property taxes work in order to win an argument after i mildly humiliated you but you probably should have done this before you started firmly declaring your convictions about local property taxation. the fact is that counties cannot level income taxes or corporate taxes in the state of florida, and cannot selectively raise or lower millage on various tax parcels for various reasons, and this will remain true no matter how much effort you spend trying to calvinball yourself into a reality where you were actually correct all along orange and osceola counties are having a giant shitpile dropped in their lap for political reasons. there is no corporate ownage here, just a tax increase as an outcome of punitive laws enacted by a rampaging populist governor
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Apr 22, 2022 18:41
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I would imagine that DeSantos is raking in the cash hand over fist from all over the country that is going to go into his war chest. However all the state senators don't have that visibility, and I would imagine Disney is going to exercise its 1st amendment right to give shitloads of money to all their opponants come next election. Don't piss off the mouse, or he's gonna send goofy to skullfuck you.
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Apr 22, 2022 18:45
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Cimber posted:I would imagine that DeSantos is raking in the cash hand over fist from all over the country that is going to go into his war chest.
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Apr 22, 2022 18:47
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Cimber posted:I would imagine that DeSantos is raking in the cash hand over fist from all over the country that is going to go into his war chest. This made me imagine a future where Disney somehow drives the Florida Republican party out of power, making them arguably the most effective force for good in the state. I'd either light myself on fire or do a heroic amount of drugs. Possibly both.
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Apr 22, 2022 18:49
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Blue Footed Booby posted:This made me imagine a future where Disney somehow drives the Florida Republican party out of power, making them arguably the most effective force for good in the state. I'd either light myself on fire or do a heroic amount of drugs. Possibly both. Well its not going to happen so you don't really need to ponder this. The corporations aren't going to save us from fascists
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Apr 22, 2022 18:54
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Willa Rogers posted:So many great bits in that story: Yeah. that, and "we need to move more towards the center"
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Apr 22, 2022 18:56
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Ron DeSantis is running against Charlie Crist, a guy as useless and boring as Joe Biden. A guy that lost to Rick Scott in a Senate race. A former Republican. That money won't even need to be spent.
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Apr 22, 2022 18:56
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Terminal autist posted:Well its not going to happen so you don't really need to ponder this. The corporations aren't going to save us from fascists No loving poo poo. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2022 18:59
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Cimber posted:I would imagine that DeSantos is raking in the cash hand over fist from all over the country that is going to go into his war chest. Honestly, I doubt it. This barely actually punishes Disney and they've been supporting Republicans to their benefit for years. It's more smoke and mirrors to puff people up. I'm not conspiracy minded enough to think Disney and DeSantis are working together here but it's more play fighting than a real conflict. The spectacle is what they're all looking for here.
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Apr 22, 2022 18:59
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:gee this might make a lot of sense if disney wasn't already in their own special tax district where they control their own property tax rates Right but the problem is how much the county would be able to raise from them if the special tax district went away and the fact that there's laws making it easy for wealthy commercial property owners to get low valuations is probably a contributing factor to why you can't get Disney to pay their fair share of taxes unless you let them run a company town where they have a direct interest in operating functional infrastructure only for them. Here's the thing, if you start out by narrowing the conversation to the point that we can't talk about why local governments can't tax corporations and the wealthy to afford infrastructure then yeah the only option left is company towns. I think that's a bad way to run a state and if we rhetorically paint ourselves into a corner of defending company towns as the only possible option it doesn't matter if we win the argument because we end up with a terrible outcome anyway. It seems to me this situation should be an opportunity to talk about the arbitrary and wildly unfair restrictions present in the first place that leave us with this Sophie's choice between paying for infrastructure with company towns or by tax burdens on the poor
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Apr 22, 2022 19:03
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turnip kid posted:Ron DeSantis is running against Charlie Crist, a guy as useless and boring as Joe Biden. A guy that lost to Rick Scott in a Senate race. A former Republican. That money won't even need to be spent. That was former astronaut, current NASA administrator, and 3-term Senator Bill Nelson who lost to Rick Scott in a Senate race. Crist lost the 2014 Gubernatorial race.
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Apr 22, 2022 19:11
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Cimber posted:So someone explain to me why Florida Republicans are currently punching themselves in the dick over Disney and are about to eat billions of dollars in debt? They're betting they'll get more money from conservative megadonors than they'll lose from Disney cutting off their campaign donations, and DeSantis obviously has presidential ambitions so he doesn't expect to be sitting around dealing with Disney long-term. And it's not like the Magic Kingdom can just pack up and move to a different state. As influential as Disney has been over government policy, it's not like Disney is actually an unstoppable political force - it's more that politicians have been predisposed to cooperate with big business in the first place, and are generally pretty easy to buy off as a result. BiggerBoat posted:This is so loving weird with this obsession with gayness though. God drat, I keep thinking that battle has been settled. My whole life, it feels like we have to keep dragging these morons kicking and screaming towards anything resembling social and cultural progress. Gay marriage didn't destroy society and repealing Dont Ask, Don't Tell didn't ruin the military. Interracial marriage was a big thing when I was growing up (stick to your own kind) but we made it. I'm pretty sure the big lesson here is that these issues looked more settled than they actually were. The political and media elite shifted positions on LGBT rights, which caused the old positions to considerably retreat from public view even though there were tons of people who still held the old bigoted positions. And although the media shift did help pull some people toward the new, better position, the impact of that was much less pronounced in regional and cultural enclaves that were strongly attached to the old bigoted position. Just like how bans on interracial marriage were ruled unconstitutional way back in 1967, but national approval of interracial marriage didn't break 50% until 1997, and only 60% of Alabama voters voted for removing the interracial marriage ban from the state constitution in 2000. Approval for interracial marriage is now at 94%, but given that it's been nearly six decades since Loving v. Virginia, it's entirely possible that it's less a changing of opinion and more a dying off of the old people who remembered the pre-Loving days. Of course, it's not guaranteed that they'd fail to pass down their bigoted views to the next generation, so that's still somewhat of a victory, but no one wants to wait their whole loving lifetime for bigotry to go away. VitalSigns posted:It seems like the problem here is state laws (undoubtedly lobbied for by entities like Disney) that restrict local citizens' and their representative governments' ability to tax corporations and the wealthy appropriately, and the solution isn't to just put a corporate board that nobody voted for in charge of cities directly I think this is a completely reversed interpretation. It's not that the special district was put into place to prevent those issues, it's that those issues will be the result of suddenly tearing down the special district immediately. It's a common issue in local government: doing new stuff creates ongoing obligations that don't go away later. Those ongoing obligations fell on the special district (and therefore on Disney), and suddenly dissolving it meant that all those costs that were Disney's responsibility will instantly fall on counties. If the special district had never been created, then those obligations would never have been taken on in the first place. Disney overbuilt infrastructure beyond what the counties would have, because they knew they could afford to do it. Disney still paid taxes to the counties, but in addition to their taxes, they also paid for their own infrastructure. So if the special district is dissolved, then the counties don't get any more money (because the special district doesn't exempt Disney from taxes), but they get more expenses (because they're now responsible for maintaining the infrastructural and financial obligations Disney took on for themselves). Since it's unlikely that DeSantis and the Florida GOP are going to repeal state anti-tax legislation, I think we can safely condemn them for doing this and sticking counties with the consequences of their posturing. And even if DeSantis did repeal those laws so that the county could raise taxes, that's still pretty regressive, because the county would be raising taxes on everyone to pay off Disney's debts. It's just transferring money from taxpayers straight to Disney.
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Apr 22, 2022 19:26
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quote:That was former astronaut, current NASA administrator, and 3-term Senator Bill Nelson who lost to Rick Scott in a Senate race. Oh yeah. I get these milquetoast bores mixed up. What a joke. Rick Scott was a complete blackhole of charisma during that race. Pretty sure he didn't show up to one of the debates as well. Still crushed Crist. Ugh. I moved here in 2009 and could not believe anyone wanted to vote for Rick Scott during his first race, yet here we are.
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Apr 22, 2022 19:26
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In 2020, for the first time in history, guns were the #1 cause of death among children in the U.S. Almost all of the increase was from homicides and not suicides. There were 4,335 children killed by guns in the U.S. in 2020. There were 0 in the U.K., Japan, and Australia during the same year. https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1517431545451196416 quote:In a first, firearms were leading cause of death for U.S. children and teens in 2020
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Apr 22, 2022 19:28
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Main Paineframe posted:
Yeah I agree, but you could also repeal the laws that require such tax increases to be regressive in the first place, is my point. Like, condemn DeSantis for going about ending Disney's company towns in a regressive way and for evil reasons sure, but I think the conversation about why the only legal alternatives to the status quo are worse is an important one to have. As well, if Disney cares so much, they could simply donate the amount they're paying now to their special district to the county instead and everything could go on as before, nothing illegal about donating to governments (I think, well not federally anymore maybe Florida has some weird law against that too idk). The problem is that if all of the infrastructure is under democratic accountability to voters they might vote to spend some of that money on fixing potholes in other parts of the county instead of just on stuff for Disney and Disney only wants to pay for public goods that directly benefit them. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 19:36
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VitalSigns posted:Right but the problem is how much the county would be able to raise from them if the special tax district went away and the fact that there's laws making it easy for wealthy commercial property owners to get low valuations is probably a contributing factor to why you can't get Disney to pay their fair share of taxes unless you let them run a company town where they have a direct interest in operating functional infrastructure only for them. Disney already pays a bunch of county taxes, including property taxes to Orange and Osceola counties, though. So the county probably isn't going to be able to raise much more from them if Reedy Creek goes away.
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Apr 22, 2022 19:57
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Epicurius posted:Disney already pays a bunch of county taxes, including property taxes to Orange and Osceola counties, though. So the county probably isn't going to be able to raise much more from them if Reedy Creek goes away. Just to add a source onto this, the tax collector for Orange County even states this: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/21/disney-special-district-florida-taxpayers-could-face-a-1-billion-debt-bomb-if-dissolved.html quote:On top of the $105 million, Disney also pays local property taxes. Public records show Disney is the largest taxpayer in central Florida, paying over $280 million in property taxes to the counties between 2015 and 2020.
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Apr 22, 2022 20:05
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Epicurius posted:Disney already pays a bunch of county taxes, including property taxes to Orange and Osceola counties, though. So the county probably isn't going to be able to raise much more from them if Reedy Creek goes away. I don't understand. Isn't that supporting what VitalSigns is saying?
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Apr 22, 2022 20:24
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A bit of good news. https://twitter.com/srl/status/1517562704881405953 https://twitter.com/srl/status/1517572772414857216 3 months is way too long compared to the 2 of the 4 people from the villages pleaded guilty to voting multiple times last week, who got deferred sentences for 50 hours of community service and a 3 month civics course. https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/04/13/civics-class-community-service-for-voting-fraud-suspects/ And turns out that Mark Meadows was registered to vote in VA, NC, and SC all at the same time. https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article260667757.html
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Apr 22, 2022 20:35
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My former in laws are all up in arms about this brand new drug sweeping the nation called "cannabis" that all the kids are using these days and OD'ing on. Like, they honestly don't seem to know that cannabis = pot. I also read this list of states with draconian marijuana laws still in place and it's a laundry list or right wing strong holds https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3n9ay/weed-laws-in-these-states-will-totally-harsh-your-420-vibe We just keep fighting old, tired battles and that seems to be what conservatism is. Keep things just as they are because everything is fine the way it is. Who the gently caress cares who gets high anymore in 2022? Boomers smoke a ton of weed.
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Apr 22, 2022 20:48
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Koos Group posted:I don't understand. Isn't that supporting what VitalSigns is saying? I mean, it might be. I might have misunderstood him. But it seems like, given that the situation ris the way it is, and isn't going to change, then all removing the special district will do is make stuff worse for the two counties involved.
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Apr 22, 2022 20:49
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DeSantis actually did it. Orange county says they are going to have to raise property taxes 24% starting in June 2023. Osceola county, the smaller and least wealthy county of the ones impacted says they haven't found a way to absorb the cost yet, but are considering bankruptcy. The Florida comptroller's office says the law is an effective tax cut on Disney worth $163.2 million per year. As an extra bonus, it also prevents Florida from building a new nuclear power plant. The last 8 years or so should have instructed people who assume, "This is so self-destructive for no gain. They aren't stupid enough to really do this." are making a losing bet. https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/1517590997043191809 https://twitter.com/NPapantonisWFTV/status/1517275697521348608 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The last 8 years or so should have instructed people who assume, "This is so self-destructive for no gain. They aren't stupid enough to really do this." are making a losing bet. Orange and Osceola counties are blue counties anyway, so DeSantis doesn't care.
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Apr 22, 2022 20:54
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