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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:what makes you think your fellow gun enthusiasts are more likely to put their money where their mouth is than you are. all that talk about taking up arms to defend against tyranny didn't amount to gently caress-all when ICE started rounding up "undesirables", and it didn't amount to gently caress-all when the cops started rounding up people protesting their murder at the hands of the state. your threat to launch civil war if someone takes your guns is precisely as credible as all your previous ones: the test has been run, and we know that after one stern look from a police officer you will slink back home muttering "no, really, NEXT time i'll do something." If by 'fellow gun enthusiasts' you mean conservatives, they won't. They want tyranny, they want ICE to act as the racial purity police, and cops to crack skulls. My insistence on guns is that someday, likely soon, you'll be squaring off against those 'fellow gun enthusiasts' unless you want to live under a permanent GOP majority in the government. You can fight for your life, you can flee, or you can quietly accept your fate as they erase human rights and every social gain made in the last 100 years; eventually growing weary of that and imprison or kill you for your beliefs. History doesn't repeat but it rhymes.
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May 26, 2022 20:19
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Bishyaler posted:My insistence on guns is that someday, likely soon, you'll be squaring off against those 'fellow gun enthusiasts' unless you want to live under a permenent GOP majority in the government. You can fight for your life, you can flee, or you can quietly accept your fate as they erase human rights and every social gain made in the last 100 years, and eventually growing weary of that and imprison or kill you for your beliefs. Your masturbatory gun power fantasy is loving embarrassing and I'm tired of seeing it here. Go gently caress yourself. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 26, 2022 20:20
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Terminal autist posted:Making yourself permanently unelectable for every single position in your state down to dog catcher and then running a high profile campaign every cycle and losing while siphoning millions from winnable races isn't a viable electoral strategy. It has to start somewhere though. It's obvious that anybody that tries to play it down the middle with hopes of making changes once elected gets their fires immediately doused by the 3 am bar-mat runoff that is the Democratic machine.
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May 26, 2022 20:21
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Bishyaler posted:If by 'fellow gun enthusiasts' you mean conservatives, they won't. They want tyranny, they want ICE to act as the racial purity police, and cops to crack skulls. My insistence on guns is that someday, likely soon, you'll be squaring off against those 'fellow gun enthusiasts' unless you want to live under a permanent GOP majority in the government. You can fight for your life, you can flee, or you can quietly accept your fate as they erase human rights and every social gain made in the last 100 years; eventually growing weary of that and imprison or kill you for your beliefs. The government literally has tanks. Actually, the police have tanks too. If the police tanks don't work, they call in the National Guard who has literal fighter planes. "Gun owners" are not going to be the ones leading the charge against the pea-shooters you can actually acquire.
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May 26, 2022 20:28
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Bishyaler posted:If by 'fellow gun enthusiasts' you mean conservatives, they won't. They want tyranny, they want ICE to act as the racial purity police, and cops to crack skulls. My insistence on guns is that someday, likely soon, you'll be squaring off against those 'fellow gun enthusiasts' unless you want to live under a permanent GOP majority in the government. You can fight for your life, you can flee, or you can quietly accept your fate as they erase human rights and every social gain made in the last 100 years; eventually growing weary of that and imprison or kill you for your beliefs. Guns are not going to help you there. We don't live in the 1800s. If the government decides to end you they are going to do it with a drone. The idea of fighting a civil war with handguns is loving laughable. You are going to be using IEDs and terrorism, not shooting in the street. Because one has a proven track record worldwide and the other is a gun nut fantasy
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May 26, 2022 20:30
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ImpAtom posted:Guns are not going to help you there. We don't live in the 1800s. If the government decides to end you they are going to do it with a drone. Not to mention the Federal Government won the Civil War in 1865 against people following the very idea of "Gun owners fighting back against the Government"
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May 26, 2022 20:31
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Xombie posted:The government literally has tanks. Actually, the police have tanks too. If the police tanks don't work, they call in the National Guard who has literal fighter planes. "Gun owners" are not going to be the ones leading the charge against the pea-shooters you can actually acquire. ImpAtom posted:Guns are not going to help you there. We don't live in the 1800s. If the government decides to end you they are going to do it with a drone. I'm not going to sugar coat the odds or say you can fight a tank or jet with a rifle. I'm only saying the likelihood of a civil war in this wretched country doesn't seem to be diminishing and a rifle is better than empty hands. If one starts, not everyone is going to have the option of fleeing, as we're seeing with Ukraine.
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May 26, 2022 20:34
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Bishyaler posted:If by 'fellow gun enthusiasts' you mean conservatives, they won't. They want tyranny, they want ICE to act as the racial purity police, and cops to crack skulls. My insistence on guns is that someday, likely soon, you'll be squaring off against those 'fellow gun enthusiasts' unless you want to live under a permanent GOP majority in the government. You can fight for your life, you can flee, or you can quietly accept your fate as they erase human rights and every social gain made in the last 100 years; eventually growing weary of that and imprison or kill you for your beliefs. What do you think about a handgun ban? That would dramatically reduce the number of gun deaths (albeit probably not mass shootings) while still allowing you and your right wing equivalents to stockpile long arms to fight each other and/or the government.
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May 26, 2022 20:37
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Bishyaler posted:I'm not going to sugar coat the odds or say you can fight a tank or jet with a rifle. I'm only saying the likelihood of a civil war in this wretched country doesn't seem to be diminishing and a rifle is better than empty hands. If one starts, not everyone is going to have the option of fleeing, as we're seeing with Ukraine. This is kind of a philosophy problem, isn't it? Is it better to shoot a gun at the stormtroopers and then die, than to just die without getting to shoot? Maybe the former is less depressing to imagine for some people, but the result is the same, you won't care that you got to shoot the gun, after you're dead. Anyway aside from all this, instead of fantasies about melting down All the Guns, for the moment I'm more interested it stopping new sales of AR15s and similar weapons, because apparently that is very relevant to stopping this kind of carnage!
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May 26, 2022 20:39
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Bishyaler posted:I'm not going to sugar coat the odds or say you can fight a tank or jet with a rifle. I'm only saying the likelihood of a civil war in this wretched country doesn't seem to be diminishing and a rifle is better than empty hands. If one starts, not everyone is going to have the option of fleeing, as we're seeing with Ukraine. The issue is that it's much more likely that one doesn't happen, or if you did have one it doesn't help, and in either of those alternatives you are much more likely to have someone in the household get hurt or killed by it, so on balance all it's doing is making things much more dangerous for no benefit
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May 26, 2022 20:40
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Bishyaler posted:If by 'fellow gun enthusiasts' you mean conservatives, they won't. They want tyranny, they want ICE to act as the racial purity police, and cops to crack skulls. My insistence on guns is that someday, likely soon, you'll be squaring off against those 'fellow gun enthusiasts' unless you want to live under a permanent GOP majority in the government. You can fight for your life, you can flee, or you can quietly accept your fate as they erase human rights and every social gain made in the last 100 years; eventually growing weary of that and imprison or kill you for your beliefs. and this is why i referred to the fantasy the NRA sold you. your gun will not help you in that fight. no matter how many cool attachments you put on it, no matter how many times you watch Red Dawn. the idea small arms will carry the day in an American war was a punchline at Yorktown and the dynamic has not shifted in their favor since then. if and when that conflict comes to pass, you will either be helping people in possession of -actual- firepower logistically, or you will be target practice for them. you want to prepare for the fight, you want to find some junior officers sympathetic to the way you think. but that's hard, and dangerous, and NRA ad copy insists that if you spend enough on your own little totem of individual power, that shall not be infringed, you will be able to fight back. not today, not tomorrow, but some day... some day, if you're pushed hard enough, if something REALLY bad happens, you'll be able to resist it, if you have a gun. ask the Left SRs how that romantic fantasy plays out, when the bullets actually start flying.
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May 26, 2022 20:43
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Bishyaler posted:I'm not going to sugar coat the odds or say you can fight a tank or jet with a rifle. I'm only saying the likelihood of a civil war in this wretched country doesn't seem to be diminishing and a rifle is better than empty hands. It actually is about equal to empty hands when it comes to fighting the actual people you would be fighting in a civil war. Unlike the actual 1800's US Civil War you would not be part of a state-government-backed army. You would just be some dude with a gun vs. your state's National Guard. That's assuming that the police gave up fast enough. If you were to engage in conventional warfare against the United States, within the actual United States, you would only last as long as the government will put up with you doing it. Do you understand why I'm not humoring this noble resistance fantasy in light of the actual, real people that are really being killed by guns, right now, in reality? quote:If one starts, not everyone is going to have the option of fleeing, as we're seeing with Ukraine. Ukraine is fighting with an actual national military backed and trained by the US military. They are definitely not scrappy upstarts with guns they bought at Wal-mart.
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May 26, 2022 20:43
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ImpAtom posted:Guns are not going to help you there. We don't live in the 1800s. If the government decides to end you they are going to do it with a drone. I think that what Bishyaler's getting at is the fundamentals of power and its uses and how that relates to anyone ever accomplishing anything. Leftist rhetoric of old favors guns and arming minorities and the poor because there is, on some level, power to be gained there. There's a lot of historical precedent that dangerous people are given more credence and leeway than people who aren't. Like, sovereign citizens are left to get away with a lot of crimes because dealing with them wouldn't honestly be more effort than it's worth. The flaw in that reasoning is, in part, what you've described. The other aspect of it is that collective power that is openly hostile to capital cannot be suffered to exist. There doesn't exist a situation in which the anti-establishment can be dangerous enough to the establishment without being crushed, because the nature of leftist power is an existential threat to capital and consolidated wealth in the way that sovereign citizens aren't. Leftist uprising, where they occur, are hit much harder, much quicker, and much more decisively than other forms of armed resistance. See MOVE, the haymarket affair, the systematic smear campaigns and assassinations of the socialists in the civil rights movement (and many others besides). It's not really a new phenomena, either. Marxist thought would suggest arming the poor and the proles to fight against the oppression and alienation put upon them by the capital class, but in modern terms, this wouldn't mean guns. It would mean standing armies with anti-tank javelins and hardened structures that could be protected from invasion, emps, and shelling. It is complete fantasy to suggest that owning an AR-15 is a means to fight against tyranny. It's just a means to kill people who are in a similar position to yourself. However, given the idea is set at the end of modern America and a fracturing civil war, the idea that arming yourself against your neighbors could buy you some extra time and freedom isn't exactly wrong. You could set yourself up as a local warlord or something, given the right circumstances. But ... the reality of the end of America via civil war is as ImpAtom suggests. It would be nothing but guerrilla tactics against an unmatchable force.
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May 26, 2022 20:44
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Vahakyla posted:Two school cops who have never been in a gunfight armed with two pistols facing against a guy in armor and with a rifle is probably actually comparable. The rifle nerd has probably more ammo in his one mag than one cop carries total. It's a pretty hopeless situation. They will serve as targets, or as donators of two new pistols. Look. That's their whole thing. The WHOLE REASON cops get a pass everytime they whoopsie-doo and shoot a person, is cause they treat EVERYONE, as a POSSIBLE COP KILLER. So here, you have 2 cops, with the force of $4 million in ammo, training, range time, pistol probably a top of the line S&W or glock if not the new Sigs, and youre telling me they're overwhelmed by pimples-mcgee, whos training has got to be 10 years of COD, and 5 days of drills he learned on youtube?
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May 26, 2022 20:45
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Bishyaler posted:I'm only saying the likelihood of a civil war in this wretched country doesn't seem to be diminishing and a rifle is better than empty hands. There is a high price tag for this fantasy.
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May 26, 2022 20:45
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Vahakyla posted:...do you want panicked parents to be allowed into a situation like this? I am legitimately asking. If the cops are just sitting there twiddling their thumbs and at least one of the parents has means to stop the shooter, you might as well BigBallChunkyTime fucked around with this message at 22:00 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 20:46
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Didn't the Bundys resist the government fairly effectively with just small arms?
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May 26, 2022 20:46
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Dog King posted:Didn't the Bundys resist the government fairly effectively with just small arms? The government somehow doesn't seem to really try against fascists. Wonder why that is.
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May 26, 2022 20:47
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Dog King posted:Didn't the Bundys resist the government fairly effectively with just small arms? Not really, they got put down fairly quickly, it's just none of that was covered because it was when Trump was running for president and that's all the media could talk about.
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May 26, 2022 20:48
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The Bananana posted:Look. Yes, exactly, which is why cops are worthless and can't be expected to actually help, and focusing on that as a potential solution is a waste of time. We need improved social services, welfare, healthcare, education and schools, and to ban all guns
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May 26, 2022 20:48
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Dog King posted:Didn't the Bundys resist the government fairly effectively with just small arms? I think they had sniper rifles too, there was a pic of them lying down aiming at the feds.
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May 26, 2022 20:48
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DeadlyMuffin posted:What do you think about a handgun ban? I'd say that handguns are the majority of gun crime so I appreciate you suggesting gun control measures that are targeting the lions share of violence, but unfortunately according to polls I linked earlier, ~80% of Americans are against a handgun ban. Lemming posted:The issue is that it's much more likely that one doesn't happen, or if you did have one it doesn't help, and in either of those alternatives you are much more likely to have someone in the household get hurt or killed by it, so on balance all it's doing is making things much more dangerous for no benefit Maybe I've been poisoned by the never-ending stream of bad news, but you might be right in the sense that it's more likely that Americans lay down and accept their new hellworld where the GOP controls the entire government with an iron fist, declares women aren't people, and starts their grim work of turning America into a white ethnostate.
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May 26, 2022 20:48
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Dog King posted:Didn't the Bundys resist the government fairly effectively with just small arms? one of them decided to point a gun at armed government officials rather than submit to arrest (and then being let off with a warning because lol). coincidentally, that is the one of them who died, instantly. you may recall him, i want to say the thread at the time called him Tarp Guy.
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May 26, 2022 20:51
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Bishyaler posted:Maybe I've been poisoned by the never-ending stream of bad news, but you might be right in the sense that it's more likely that Americans lay down and accept their new hellworld where the GOP controls the entire government with an iron fist, declares women aren't people, and starts their grim work of turning America into a white ethnostate. Yes, and in that case all having a gun would do is make it more likely that someone in the household commits suicide or has the gun turned on them, and makes it less likely that they'd be able to stop the above scenario from happening. The only thing the gun achieves in any case is giving you a false sense of security while making you much less safe
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May 26, 2022 20:51
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Dog King posted:Didn't the Bundys resist the government fairly effectively with just small arms? This is a perfect example of how an armed resistance against the US government lasts only as long as they deign to tolerate it. They were managed to occupy a National Wildlife Refuge for all of a month and were defeated by the Oregon State Police and the FBI. That is just the police level of government, not even the military level.
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May 26, 2022 20:52
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Terminal autist posted:Making yourself permanently unelectable for every single position in your state down to dog catcher and then running a high profile campaign every cycle and losing while siphoning millions from winnable races isn't a viable electoral strategy. If supporting policies that would prevent the now frequent massacres of children in this country makes a politician "unelectable" then the electorate needs to loving change, not the politician. The only way forward is to combat propaganda and deprogram Americans from the gun cult they have been indoctrinated into since childhood..
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May 26, 2022 20:53
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The feds need to take over the situation in Texas. The cops are just blatantly lying to protect themselves at this point.
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May 26, 2022 20:54
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Lemming posted:Yes, and in that case all having a gun would do is make it more likely that someone in the household commits suicide or has the gun turned on them, and makes it less likely that they'd be able to stop the above scenario from happening. The only thing the gun achieves in any case is giving you a false sense of security while making you much less safe I understand your statistics because there was a time I quoted them myself. But nobody in a war zone is troubling themselves with firearm statistics, but I'm guessing there are quite a few people in that situation that wish they were better armed.
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May 26, 2022 20:54
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Solkanar512 posted:Hey, the constant "pissing in their panties" comments are pretty misogynistic. Further, female teachers died protecting students, unlike the cumstain cops.
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May 26, 2022 20:55
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Bishyaler posted:I understand your statistics because there was a time I quoted them myself. But nobody in a war zone is troubling themselves with firearm statistics, but I'm guessing there are quite a few people in that situation that wish they were better armed. The thing is that the statistics are real, and the warzone you're imagining yourself in doesn't exist. You are not in a warzone and if you were, it would last a few hours at most before the government simply put you down. The actual, real deaths that are happening right now are not a fair price for your imagined glorious suicide by cop. Xombie fucked around with this message at 21:00 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 20:57
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Bishyaler posted:I understand your statistics because there was a time I quoted them myself. But nobody in a war zone is troubling themselves with firearm statistics, but I'm guessing there are quite a few people in that situation that wish they were better armed. Weren't you against arming Ukraine just last week, and in favor of their surrender to fascists at the start of the invasion? How do you square the two positions?
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May 26, 2022 20:58
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Xombie posted:The thing is that the statistics are real, and the warzone you're imagining yourself in doesn't exist. You are not in a warzone and if you were, it would last a few hours at most before the government simply put you down. The likelihood of a GOP takeover is almost guaranteed, and a shooting war in America is greater than the possibility that you will ever ban firearms. I'm discussing things which are more likely to happen than people advocating gun bans, its a miserable reality but not wanting to accept that doesn't change the outcome.
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May 26, 2022 21:03
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Vahakyla posted:
Vahakyla posted:The rifle nerd has probably more ammo in his one mag than one cop carries total. It's a pretty hopeless situation. They will serve as targets, or as donators of two new pistols. Oh, no! The police would be targets instead of children! You make a good point here. The Sean fucked around with this message at 21:06 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 21:04
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RBA Starblade posted:Weren't you against arming Ukraine just last week, and in favor of their surrender to fascists at the start of the invasion? How do you square the two positions? Why don't you take your attempted Ukraine derail to the Ukraine thread or PMs?
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May 26, 2022 21:04
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When I was a young idiot I did a tour in Iraq with the army. When we went out on patrol, we were not afraid of small arms. Dudes with AKs were no threat to us. Hell, even dudes with RPKs weren't a real threat. Small arms don't do poo poo against state forces. If you want to make the argument that private citizens need to maintain parity with the state in terms of firepower that's fine- but you'll necessarily need to advocate for private ownership of AT missiles, MANPADS, crew served weapons, etc. You'll at least have an internally consistent position then. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 21:07 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 21:05
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Why don't you take your attempted Ukraine derail to the Ukraine thread or PMs? Bishyaler made the comparison and is using Ukraine's current resistance as an argument against gun control and proliferation. I wanted to know how he can hold that position and use Ukraine as an example why with what they also believe about the invasion of Ukraine and arming it. I don't think the Ukraine thread cares about US gun control.
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May 26, 2022 21:07
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Bishyaler posted:I understand your statistics because there was a time I quoted them myself. But nobody in a war zone is troubling themselves with firearm statistics, but I'm guessing there are quite a few people in that situation that wish they were better armed. from reports like the siege of sarajevo, the far more frequent wish is that they had something to eat, had someone else to watch the back door, and didn't have to sleep. guns in civilian hands retain their primary use-case during peacetime; a fast way for the owner to leave the party when it all gets a bit too much. in the war you are fantasizing about the difference between a kitchen knife, an assault rifle out of feinstein-back-when-she-was-lucid's nightmares, and a 50 cal you've somehow mad maxed onto a Ford Focus is cosmetic, from your opponents' persepective: all of them mean "if the soldiers want something out of you, they'll kill you, and then take it."
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May 26, 2022 21:07
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The Sean posted:Oh, no! The police would be targets instead of children! You make a good point here. While we're wishing for impossible things like "good police willing to risk their lives to save children," I would like a unicorn
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May 26, 2022 21:09
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Bishyaler posted:The likelihood of a GOP takeover is almost guaranteed, and a shooting war in America is greater than the possibility that you will ever ban firearms. I'm discussing things which are more likely to happen than people advocating gun bans, its a miserable reality but not wanting to accept that doesn't change the outcome. You have done nothing to prove that "a shooting war" would be anything other than simply you getting gunned down by a SWAT team within hours, or failing that, federal police within a few more. This is still while you face conventional small arms, which does not even remotely touch on the full power of arms of the government. If we are talking about arbitrary "likelihood" here, you are not on good footing for proving your point.
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May 26, 2022 21:10
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Lemming posted:While we're wishing for impossible things like "good police willing to risk their lives to save children," I would like a unicorn The thin blue line between parents and their children who are bleeding to death.
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