(Thread IKs:
PoundSand)
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Pingui posted:There is this weird thing going on, where basic logic is being cast aside, because it hasn't been ~scientifically proven~. The part where everyone outside this thread (and certain pockets of reddit and twitter) all agreed that covid doesn't spread in schools was what broke my brain The part where they all agreed to wear masks inside cafes and restaurants except when they were sitting and eating was also , it's just the most blatant motivated reasoning. If they could at least have been open about "This will increase spread somewhat (which will also increase hospitalizations and deaths) but we see that as an acceptable tradeoff if parents can keep going to work/restaurants can stay in business" that would have been a different matter, but of course they couldn't just come out and say "We're allowing more deaths so $$$$$ can keep circulating" so everyone had to clap and believe in fairies to make the magic happen
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 13:24 |
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# ? May 26, 2024 08:43 |
Pingui posted:There is this weird thing going on, where basic logic is being cast aside, because it hasn't been ~scientifically proven~. Idk if it is just the general alienation, if it is politics-brain, increased complexity and esotericity of research or some offshoot of Freakonomics, but its been a battle throughout the pandemic. I wish it was possible to incorporate presumptive defaults into statistics, because too often studies are simply underpowered to a statistical significant degree, which is invariably noted as "no effect", rather than a likely effect that should be studied more rigorously and in depth. I wish I could quote this with some kind of spectacular effect. it’s good
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 13:49 |
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I hope flu-like doesn’t cause long flu-like
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 13:50 |
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Pingui posted:There is this weird thing going on, where basic logic is being cast aside, because it hasn't been ~scientifically proven~. Idk if it is just the general alienation, if it is politics-brain, increased complexity and esotericity of research or some offshoot of Freakonomics, but its been a battle throughout the pandemic. I wish it was possible to incorporate presumptive defaults into statistics, because too often studies are simply underpowered to a statistical significant degree, which is invariably noted as "no effect", rather than a likely effect that should be studied more rigorously and in depth. I think it's just where we're headed from now on. You see it everywhere now, there's this very "well you'd better have a study backing up every word in that sentence, and I'd better like them" approach to everything, because the wrong people figured out that this is an easy way to not get things done. It works, too
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 13:53 |
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Pingui posted:There is this weird thing going on, where basic logic is being cast aside, because it hasn't been ~scientifically proven~. Idk if it is just the general alienation, if it is politics-brain, increased complexity and esotericity of research or some offshoot of Freakonomics, but its been a battle throughout the pandemic. I wish it was possible to incorporate presumptive defaults into statistics, because too often studies are simply underpowered to a statistical significant degree, which is invariably noted as "no effect", rather than a likely effect that should be studied more rigorously and in depth.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 14:28 |
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but don't let that stop you because what else are you gonna do, not fight back? what if you accidentally help someone! think of all the wasted shareholder value
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:04 |
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Crazyweasel posted:Son has had runny nose, cough, low grade fever for 2 days. You may have a rare case of long Paxlovid.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:04 |
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SardonicTyrant posted:It's really straightforward, honestly; the government doesn't want to protect people from covid because that is expensive and gives labor more power, so they won't help people; and people fundamentally can't maintain a lockdown on an individual basis so they gravitate to the "factoids" that say covid is over and you can open biden as long as you're "careful". People don't act "rationally", that's a fake thing. People as a whole take the path of least resistance. And if the path of least resistance leads to disability and death....well, welcome to the wheel of samsara. Which makes sense within the confines of communication to the public, but what I am talking about is more insidious and pervasive than that. There is a bunch of research that seems honest, but self-censoring to only let the statistics do the talking and the rest of the paper is just packaging. It doesn't seem inherently malicious, but it makes for some very poor science. So while I agree that what you are describing happens, it isn't all decision-based evidence-making. At least I don't think that explains things like the Paxlovid study. Real Mean Queen posted:I think it's just where we're headed from now on. You see it everywhere now, there's this very "well you'd better have a study backing up every word in that sentence, and I'd better like them" approach to everything, because the wrong people figured out that this is an easy way to not get things done. It works, too Yeah, that is what I meant by politics-brain; like the data, research and conclusions are inherently written as political in the US sense. Good vs evil. Right vs wrong. Us vs them. It is certainly an element when talking COVID research and tbf COVID research is difficult to dislodge from politics. I can imagine the effect is to play it defensively and only let the statistics do the talking, which is why I mentioned it. But like above, while I think you are correct that this happens, I think that more relates to the communications in media and doesn't (to me) explain research like the Paxlovid study I mentioned. Snowglobe of Doom posted:The part where everyone outside this thread (and certain pockets of reddit and twitter) all agreed that covid doesn't spread in schools was what broke my brain Yup and it was a stellar example of motivated reasoning and perhaps that is really a big part of this. Not that the researchers are necessarily applying motivated reasoning (though, lol, it happens a lot), but because the foundation of motivated reasoning results in the mentioned self-censoring. Like there is a lack of rationality at an emotional level, so when the data shows an ugly truth it gets worked against, the data massaged a bit, conclusions become very stringent and narrow, the discussion lackluster and uninspired etc.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:06 |
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is there anywhere in particular that has sales/etc. on 3m 9210s right now (auras)
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:10 |
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Pingui posted:
yeah this is what I was hinting at when I said I was reading eXXon's post re: the pax/long-covid study uncharitably: because that's how it will be used. there's an overarching impetus to seek out, distort, and amplify the Covid's Over data operating at every level of the process
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:13 |
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oh btw my wife also had success with eMed/test2treat. when she went to pick up the prescription at CVS, the pharmacist had a mask on, but around her chin. she grabbed the bag, read it, and pulled her mask up before turning back around. lol
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:17 |
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Pingui posted:There is this weird thing going on, where basic logic is being cast aside, because it hasn't been ~scientifically proven~. Idk if it is just the general alienation, if it is politics-brain, increased complexity and esotericity of research or some offshoot of Freakonomics, but its been a battle throughout the pandemic. I wish it was possible to incorporate presumptive defaults into statistics, because too often studies are simply underpowered to a statistical significant degree, which is invariably noted as "no effect", rather than a likely effect that should be studied more rigorously and in depth. I went back and looked at that and thought it was notable that the only cardiac symptom that was pax was definitively "not helpful" for (after 30 days) was chest pain. Four others were on the (perhaps marginally) effective side (I suppose dysrhythmias and myo/pericarditis might be truly no difference): Pingui posted:"Effectiveness of Nirmatrelvir–Ritonavir Against the Development of Post–COVID-19 Conditions Among U.S. Veterans" ... but the confidence internal for total cardiac seems rather large? I can't quite eyeball if they just added everything in quadrature correctly but it also seems notable that the cardiac cumulative incidence rate is much smaller than the sum of the subcategories, implying that (presumably) many people had 2 or more symptoms. I wonder if they'd measured "average # of cardiac symptoms" or some kind of severity-weighted index, if that would have been more convincingly in favour of pax. Precambrian Video Games has issued a correction as of 15:21 on Nov 4, 2023 |
# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:19 |
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Tried to make family appointment for covid/flu shots, for some reason the CVS website would only let us make the appointment for covid shots. Well whatever, we'll just ask for flu shots when we get there. Pharmacist is like, "uh no, we don't do walk in flu shots because there's only one pharmacist." But... we're here getting shots right now, can you not just give us flu shots at the same time? I hate this stupid country. Edit: also dude was shaky as hell and stabbed my kid an extra time so there was blood everywhere. Edit: same kid his protesting getting a flu shot because "I already got two shots!" PerniciousKnid has issued a correction as of 15:47 on Nov 4, 2023 |
# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:28 |
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gradenko_2000 posted:Haven't posted here in a while but new not-covid just dropped Lol
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:43 |
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That’s just the extension of a particularly devious and effective form of internet argument into real life. If I see a bird with webbed feet, a bill, oily feathers, and an affinity for water I am no longer allowed to deduce that it’s a duck or at least some kind of wildfowl; I need an affidavit from the duck in triplicate attesting to being a duck.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:48 |
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PerniciousKnid posted:Edit: also dude was shaky as hell and stabbed my kid an extra time so there was blood everywhere.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 15:49 |
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I flew yesterday and there were almost zero masks other than my wife and I. Maybe 1-2% of people on the flights. When I flew to Alaska a few months ago masks were probably closer to 5% of passengers. Not common but not rare. This time we stuck out as the only people. Sitting on a beach in Mexico right now. It’s a spreadsheet avoidance vacation but honestly it wasn’t super hard to find a place that is almost completely outside, including the restaurants.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 16:22 |
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It's impossible to get kids under 6 flu shots outside of school hours unless you pay $25 at urgent care. But if I keep the kids home it's illegal truancy.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 16:32 |
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PerniciousKnid posted:It's impossible to get kids under 6 flu shots outside of school hours unless you pay $25 at urgent care. But if I keep the kids home it's illegal truancy. Life hack: Tell the school your kids had flu-like
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 16:57 |
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FuturePerfect VideoGames posted:I went back and looked at that and thought it was notable that the only cardiac symptom that was pax was definitively "not helpful" for (after 30 days) was chest pain. Four others were on the (perhaps marginally) effective side (I suppose dysrhythmias and myo/pericarditis might be truly no difference): Yeah, as you can tell it wouldn't take a whole lot to change the conclusion on most of these. Once you consider the curve of post acute COVID CVD, it is perhaps more surprising that we see anything at all. As a brief reminder (and why I keep harping on about it): Source: https://heart.bmj.com/content/109/2/119 FuturePerfect VideoGames posted:(..) I think you are digging the wrong place. Does it really matter quantifying the extent to which it helps post 30 days, if it helped within the first 30 where the vast majority of the cardiovascular events happens? Edit to add: I think the exclusion criteria are removing things like chest pain if they have happened within the first 30 days, though it is phrased so poorly in their example that it leaves room for doubt (baseline should be 30 days in, not 0). Judge for yourself: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/suppl/10.7326/M23-1394/suppl_file/M23-1394_Supplement.pdf posted:(..) Pingui has issued a correction as of 17:42 on Nov 4, 2023 |
# ? Nov 4, 2023 17:22 |
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Woke up tasting metal the other day, but I figured it was because I was scraping my nasal cavity with the little test qtip (tested negative btw)
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 17:29 |
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Pingui posted:There is this weird thing going on, where basic logic is being cast aside, because it hasn't been ~scientifically proven~. Idk if it is just the general alienation, if it is politics-brain, increased complexity and esotericity of research or some offshoot of Freakonomics, but its been a battle throughout the pandemic. I wish it was possible to incorporate presumptive defaults into statistics, because too often studies are simply underpowered to a statistical significant degree, which is invariably noted as "no effect", rather than a likely effect that should be studied more rigorously and in depth.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 17:51 |
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Thoguh posted:Sitting on a beach in Mexico right now. It’s a spreadsheet avoidance vacation but honestly it wasn’t super hard to find a place that is almost completely outside, including the restaurants. We should all just move to the beach and eat truck tacos all day. Some sort of mormons-in-mexico emigration, except instead of polygamy we just don't like people sneezing on us. Honestly if I didn't have a kid I would have been there years ago.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 17:52 |
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Raskolnikov2089 posted:anus (butthole)
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 17:53 |
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The Demilich posted:Woke up tasting metal the other day, but I figured it was because I was scraping my nasal cavity with the little test qtip (tested negative btw) The old couple next door, whom we pet-sit for occasionally, decided enough was enough and went on a cruise out of Montreal. Both immediately caught Covid and had to cut the trip short. He's tasting metal even now a month later. She's in worse shape because she has an odd immune-system disorder and her first Covid vaccination made her so ill she never got fully vaccinated. I told my mom about this and she promptly went and scheduled her booster.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 17:57 |
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Real Mean Queen posted:I think it's just where we're headed from now on. You see it everywhere now, there's this very "well you'd better have a study backing up every word in that sentence, and I'd better like them" approach to everything, because the wrong people figured out that this is an easy way to not get things done. It works, too There's an extra layer too where if you do happen to have a study ready to present when asked, the point you're making is automatically invalid because only someone obsessed or biased would know of the study. And of course it goes without saying that no study is needed to justify doing whatever the hell you want no matter how dangerous it is for you and everyone around you - in that case a quote from an economist will do, but ultimately even that isn't needed since you can just invoke MILD or "it's endemic now and time to live with it" or "we've moved on" or any of the other unassailable classics. It's intolerable.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 17:58 |
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Myok posted:I told my mom about this and she promptly went and scheduled her booster. Jealous. My wife's dad has been sick for 3 weeks now and his wife for 4 with "not COVID" (they took one test 3 weeks ago, you see), they both rebounded and everything. My wife told her mom about it as a warning, and you'd think that would scare her, but yesterday she dropped her "I always wear a mask" charade or decided now was a good time to finally drop masking for some reason and FaceTime'd us maskless from a vet's waiting room and wouldn't put one on when we begged. I really wish people weren't like this!
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 18:04 |
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I just say "how many studies would change your mind" and they say "none" and you can tell they feel a little stupid on some level for saying so.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 18:08 |
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Why Am I So Tired posted:Jealous. My wife's dad has been sick for 3 weeks now and his wife for 4 with "not COVID" (they took one test 3 weeks ago, you see), they both rebounded and everything. My wife told her mom about it as a warning, and you'd think that would scare her, but yesterday she dropped her "I always wear a mask" charade or decided now was a good time to finally drop masking for some reason and FaceTime'd us maskless from a vet's waiting room and wouldn't put one on when we begged. I really wish people weren't like this! hits home. sorry. that's so frustrating. some of my family has been visiting sick friends in the hospital because of a new autoimmune disorder destroying there liver. I gave the fam a box of aurora & a box of vflex. declined, they live in a new paradigm. sigh.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 18:14 |
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no lube so what posted:hits home. sorry. that's so frustrating. It's so infuriating, I'm sorry you're going through it too. The way people refuse to protect themselves is never going to register as normal to me, it's completely insane.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 18:31 |
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Thoguh posted:completely outside, including the restaurants. Speaking of, just went for a urban bike ride and they've already turned the outdoor dining areas into "No it's still outdoors because the walls are transparent" thing lol
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 18:52 |
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https://twitter.com/inkblue01/status/1720785263134187749?s=46 https://twitter.com/moderndarkage/status/1720821758599573944?s=46 Steve Yun has issued a correction as of 19:10 on Nov 4, 2023 |
# ? Nov 4, 2023 19:06 |
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Steve Yun posted:https://twitter.com/inkblue01/status/1720785263134187749?s=46 Ok, but have you considered that adjusting your life in any way to a threat is mental illness?
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 19:31 |
Thoguh posted:I flew yesterday and there were almost zero masks other than my wife and I. Maybe 1-2% of people on the flights. When I flew to Alaska a few months ago masks were probably closer to 5% of passengers. Not common but not rare. This time we stuck out as the only people. iirc, you’ve had a real hard go, thoguh. rest and recharge so you can keep up the good fight and so on.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 20:10 |
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I checked, it's still there! https://www.cdc.gov/poxvirus/mpox/prevention/sexual-health.html#:~:text=or%20vagina)%2C%20or-,anus%20(butthole),-.%20If%20you%20or
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 21:15 |
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Shiroc posted:Gotta admit I'm pretty bummed about there not actually being anything on the horizon that will change the incredibly stupid situation we're in. don't worry the biosphere collapse thread has the answers you seek
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 22:29 |
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Pingui posted:Which makes sense within the confines of communication to the public, but what I am talking about is more insidious and pervasive than that. There is a bunch of research that seems honest, but self-censoring to only let the statistics do the talking and the rest of the paper is just packaging. It doesn't seem inherently malicious, but it makes for some very poor science. I dunno if you play the peer review publishing roulette game yourself, Pingui, but I immediately saw what you saw and thought: this is exactly the kind of poo poo anonymous reviewers and/or editors will latch onto and fight authors about. A lot of them cannot deal with having contextual language discussing how one or more null results are *not* in fact the same thing as saying there is definitely no effect, but that the particular analysis might be underpowered, not purposively calibrated for the particular effect, whatever the case may be. If reviewers or editors want to play hardball about it it can add months to the time from submission to publication. So yeah, when you say that some of it seems "self-censoring," that could either be censoring from the peer review process or from the author having been conditioned by past experiences. I have dealt with this in my own work and I don't work on anything half again as politicized as SARS2. Though I did contribute to a public health messaging experiment project that was sabotaged by a right-wing coauthor at the 11th hour to avoid making conservatives look bad. That was loving magical. gently caress you, author #2.
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 23:00 |
Raskolnikov2089 posted:[Pestilence] %2C%20or-,anus%20(butthole)
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# ? Nov 4, 2023 23:05 |
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captainbananas posted:I dunno if you play the peer review publishing roulette game yourself, Pingui, but I immediately saw what you saw and thought: this is exactly the kind of poo poo anonymous reviewers and/or editors will latch onto and fight authors about. A lot of them cannot deal with having contextual language discussing how one or more null results are *not* in fact the same thing as saying there is definitely no effect, but that the particular analysis might be underpowered, not purposively calibrated for the particular effect, whatever the case may be. If reviewers or editors want to play hardball about it it can add months to the time from submission to publication. So yeah, when you say that some of it seems "self-censoring," that could either be censoring from the peer review process or from the author having been conditioned by past experiences. I do not play the roulette, no, and certainly my background is having an effect in my interpretation. I suppose I am inherently biased to look for holes in "the argument" and have a particularly low tolerance for politicking around material reality Either way thank you for the perspective, I can see the peer review process (particularly with something so politically polarized) can result in the self-censoring narrowing conclusions to only the statistics. Even if I don't think that is good science or ethical when dealing with something so directly affecting maimings and deaths as "does Paxlovid help". Sorry for your plight, I hope this doesn't come of as disparaging towards you and your efforts :/ Pingui has issued a correction as of 01:43 on Nov 7, 2023 |
# ? Nov 4, 2023 23:50 |
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# ? May 26, 2024 08:43 |
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I think this was posted within the last week, but search didn't find it: is the best way to decontaminate a room with UV, or ozone, or something else; and how exactly would I do that? I'm going to have various movers and installers and such in the house every day next week, and there's no way they'll all mask correctly the whole time. I'll be masked, but there will still be particulate everywhere, and I'd rather not sleep in a mask all week. What's my best course of action? Or is it as simple as a Corsi cube in every room?
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# ? Nov 5, 2023 00:08 |