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Atopian posted:Re: Sundae workplace issue, it seems like there aren't any decisions that are both good and realistic, so the main priority should be for Sundae to avoid making them, or at least without getting approval from some other part of the company. This is a bad approach because the easiest path is "try to force the contractor to leave instead of fixing the problem." This kind of lack of managerial courage is how hostile workplaces flourish and the lovely people win because anyone with a working conscious "just doesn't want to create waves". If you're a leader, act like a leader, not just as a manager trying to protect their own rear end first.
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Jan 13, 2024 05:58
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I want to highlight an element that appears to have gone without sufficient notice.Sundae posted:If I terminate Old Guy, I will have an operator mutiny on my hands because everyone likes him, and because it's a small team. You don't have an Old Guy problem, you an entire team problem. On a lighter note, Lockback posted:HR doesn't, like, get a commission for firing people. My god. You're a genius. I'm starting the pitch deck now.
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Jan 13, 2024 06:29
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Lockback posted:This is a bad approach because the easiest path is "try to force the contractor to leave instead of fixing the problem." This kind of lack of managerial courage is how hostile workplaces flourish and the lovely people win because anyone with a working conscious "just doesn't want to create waves". If you're a leader, act like a leader, not just as a manager trying to protect their own rear end first. Ideally if you're a manager you're not *just* trying to protect your own rear end, but if you're not *even* trying to protect your own rear end, then you won't be able to do any of the other stuff on account of no longer being in a position to. My impression of Sundae's company has not been one of flexibility and prioritising employee satisfaction.
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Jan 13, 2024 08:55
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It's depressing how things can get normalized in a group to the point that the witness, who from my reading is also a woman, doesn't think that the awful poo poo the guy said wasn't that bad.
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Jan 13, 2024 12:34
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Itaipava posted:It's depressing how things can get normalized in a group to the point that the witness, who from my reading is also a woman, doesn't think that the awful poo poo the guy said wasn't that bad. It also sounded from the vague wording that said witness was also an intern. The whole point of those things is to get the line item on your resume and generally not rock the boat. There’s also a power dynamics thing at play where you’re the intern and if everyone else with all this experience thinks old guy is fine then who am I, the lowly intern, to judge and also how will this affect my future employment and recommendations? E: The video where the person records themselves getting fired… I dunno, this felt like the bargaining stages of being dumped energy to me. “Please don’t break up with me why are you doing this I’ve been good and I’ll do better” you know? At this point the decision was already made and it prolly didn’t come from the people on the other end of the line. What’s the point of any of this? Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 13:19
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Sundae posted:
And yes, it's utterly insane.
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Jan 13, 2024 14:09
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Sundae you should ask Old Guy for life / marriage advice and report back.
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Jan 13, 2024 14:09
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Atopian posted:Re: Sundae workplace issue, it seems like there aren't any decisions that are both good and realistic, so the main priority should be for Sundae to avoid making them, or at least without getting approval from some other part of the company. Lockback posted:This is a bad approach because the easiest path is "try to force the contractor to leave instead of fixing the problem." This kind of lack of managerial courage is how hostile workplaces flourish and the lovely people win because anyone with a working conscious "just doesn't want to create waves". If you're a leader, act like a leader, not just as a manager trying to protect their own rear end first. Agree this is a bad approach but managing the contractor out seems risky as well. This person has already laid paper for a discrimination/harassment claim. If they're term'd it gives a very nice retaliation claim but even if managed out there's still an easily articulated cause of action, enough that some plaintiff's attorney will take it. It seems like they're building a pretty solid case and that Sundae is at risk of helping them build that case. I think Sundae has a good approach which is an intra-company transfer. The team of 6 loses but not by much, she gets to work elsewhere and not with a person she finds harassing, reasonable or not. Note: IANAL and I've never looked up how her being a contractor plays in here, if it does. Transferring them might be an adverse employment action though so check with legal. Like for real it could be that I am totally wrong here and the above thought is completely incorrect. EDIT: I was curious and apparently some issues of a transfer as an adverse employment action are going to SCOTUS. [Link] "The U.S. Courts of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit and the Ninth Circuit both held that a purely lateral transfer is an adverse employment action whether or not the employee can show additional injury as a result." The circumstances are related to gender discrimination in the case too. So oh boy check with legal and probably a transfer is at least as risky of an option. Enjoy your poo poo sandwich Sundae. If you transfer her you might also need to give her a small raise lol talk to legal. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 14:42
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The big picture feel I'm getting from Sundae's posts is of a company whose leadership wants Sundae to be the one to (for documentation purposes) Make The Decision. For reasons that should be obvious. Sundae knows how the game is played so when he finally meets with HR they'll probably communicate to him, in a fully deniable way, which course of action the overlords would prefer him to be the one to take, totally on his own initiative. The theme of the meeting right from the get-go will be either "if you want to terminate him, we won't stop you" (read: "we want to terminate him but prefer the record to show you did it") or "we are giving him a warning but find no cause for further action, but of course we respect how the complainant feels, how do you want to go forward with her?" (read: "we want to keep him and are willing to pay her off, but we want the record to show you chose to keep him") Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 15:01
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Boris Galerkin posted:E: The video where the person records themselves getting fired… I dunno, this felt like the bargaining stages of being dumped energy to me. “Please don’t break up with me why are you doing this I’ve been good and I’ll do better” you know? At this point the decision was already made and it prolly didn’t come from the people on the other end of the line. What’s the point of any of this? my post contains strong boomer energy, but it feels like the recording of the firing was consistent with the Gen Z folks documenting anything and everything in their life, then amplifying anything that they feel as unfair as a war crime. I empathize with her for sure, and it absolutely could have been handled better. But, it's never been a secret that companies will do whatever they need for their bottom line first and then will gently caress up the execution of any strategy, it's the American way.
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Jan 13, 2024 15:21
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CarForumPoster posted:Enjoy your poo poo sandwich Sundae. If you transfer her you might also need to give her a small raise lol talk to legal. That's why you need to work with her, and you know, talk to her. If she says a transfer is her ideal outcome then you don't have a problem. If she says that is not at all what she wants then you do. Or just fire that guy because why would you want him working with anyone anymore?
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Jan 13, 2024 16:32
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Yikes, that conduct is disgusting and they'd be on their way out the door here.CarForumPoster posted:Note: IANAL and I've never looked up how her being a contractor plays in here, if it does. Transferring them might be an adverse employment action though so check with legal. Like for real it could be that I am totally wrong here and the above thought is completely incorrect. Contractor status pretty much changes everything. If they're employed by another company, both companies will probably deal with a complaint. If they're an independent contractor for Sundae's company, a bunch of the federal anti-discrimination stuff doesn't apply, but 1) CA does 2) it just means incorrect classification gets examined as well.
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Jan 13, 2024 16:41
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quote:You don't have an Old Guy problem, you an entire team problem. In fairness to entire team (though I agree with you), it's definitely harder to not have an Entire Team problem when Old Guy being terminated would give them a ~16% increase in workload across the board paired with (until it leaks out) me not being allowed to tell anyone why they suddenly lost a teammember. It'd leak within hours, though; they all have each other's personal phone numbers, which means Old Guy would text Former Guy who would text one of them and be like "OMG Old Guy told me he got fired for X, New Girl reported him to HR!" From there, the rumor mill and bitterness at increased workload / lack of transparency would do the rest. I've told HR repeatedly that this will not be able to stay private/secret, because of how small and close-knit the team is. It's going to come out whether they tell everyone to keep their mouths shut or not, because once you fire Old Guy (if you do), they no longer have the ability to prevent it from coming out. quote:That's why you need to work with her, and you know, talk to her. I'm not allowed to do that until HR finishes the investigation. Part of my problem is that they've taken so loving long to deal with this for reasons I'm not gonna details (but they're stupid as gently caress and land firmly in the HR Doesn't Care bucket), and I can't give any reasonable actions or timeframes to either party involved. That being said, I'm meeting with HR next week, so not making any more posts on it until I see what laughable/predictable poo poo they throw back at me.
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Jan 13, 2024 19:13
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Hope HR gets you a good result. HR rebranded themselves here: they're no longer human nor resources. Protecting toxic behavior because they do good work is in itself really toxic. If dude gets fired or even warned and the bitterness ramps up from the team, any hint of a change of behavior towards the subject from any of the team is retaliation and textbook hostile work environment stuff.
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Jan 13, 2024 19:26
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Sundae posted:I'm not allowed to do that until HR finishes the investigation. Part of my problem is that they've taken so loving long to deal with this for reasons I'm not gonna details (but they're stupid as gently caress and land firmly in the HR Doesn't Care bucket), and I can't give any reasonable actions or timeframes to either party involved. Yeah "you" here means the company but "What did she say when you talked about what outcomes she was looking for?" should be a question you ask even if I'm pretty sure you'll get nervous glances and word salad.
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Jan 13, 2024 21:37
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Sundae posted:I'm not allowed to do that until HR finishes the investigation. Part of my problem is that they've taken so loving long to deal with this for reasons I'm not gonna details (but they're stupid as gently caress and land firmly in the HR Doesn't Care bucket), and I can't give any reasonable actions or timeframes to either party involved.. I mean it's just the dysfunction you expect from any Byzantine gigacorp HR system. But the incidental benefit for the company is the longshot hope that if they delay as long as possible she could quit and relieve the company of the burden of having to make a decision.
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Jan 13, 2024 23:03
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Jan 14, 2024 00:32
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Old guy needs to fuckin go and I don't give a poo poo what the rest of the team thinks because there's no way that they didn't know what was going on and did nothing to stop it. Once they make life hell for the contractor, if you're lucky she'll report them too and they can get canned as well. Comedy option is that you're left with an entire pharma manufacturing line ran by 3 interns and HR will still refuse to backfill. What I'm saying is that I want to watch the world burn. I get the need as a manager to keep experience and talent around but if you don't make an example out of him then you're sending a message to the good ole boys club that you will protect them, and things will only get worse from here. Of course my serious suggestion here is buy a houseboat and fall off the grid for a few months while this whole thing resolves itself without you. If you return in under 12 months then you can probably get your job back because HR will still be facing a decision paralysis over whether or not to fire you for no call no show
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Jan 14, 2024 02:49
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A sufficiently competent HR, even as soulless monsters working only in the company's interests, would have drummed the guy out and started scorched earth trainings at a minimum. He and his surroundings aren't just a liability with this contract employee. If there's one case where they got enough information to be aware of it, there are four other ones they won't know about and any one of them could be liability down the line.
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Jan 14, 2024 04:47
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For 2024 company rolled out a new timesheet, as well as a project tracking form which is for internal use only so the company knows where hours go. The confusion around this is really funny. HR held multiple trainings on the project tracking, and the first words that they said was "This is not your timesheet, it doesn't affect your pay, we just want to know how much time is spent on certain tasks so we can allocate funds." Training ran 45 minutes long over people not understanding that it is not their timesheet, and asking questions about their holiday pay (out of office, because you didn't work) and how to track their standby hours (you don't, unless you actually get called in, since we only care about hours worked). The best part is that we did this ~5 years ago and stopped because nobody was tracking hours right. The people who were most confused have been around long enough to see the previous iteration of this concept so it shouldn't even be new. I expect to not have to do this next year after all the data is worthless from people doing it wrong again.
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Jan 14, 2024 14:42
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Is it additional tracking on top of a regular timesheet? Because that would annoy the hell out of me.
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Jan 14, 2024 16:57
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yeah, it's additional. It is, in fact, extremely annoying. The only saving grace is that I can knock it out in like 30 seconds, the hard part is remembering to actually do it.
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Jan 14, 2024 17:09
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Good-Natured Filth posted:Is it additional tracking on top of a regular timesheet? Because that would annoy the hell out of me. Time estimate: 5 hours Confidence interval: +/- 300%
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Jan 14, 2024 17:42
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Renegret posted:yeah, it's additional. It is, in fact, extremely annoying. I used to have this poo poo. We didn't have timesheets but then they had this project time allocation thing where you had to fill out a per hour project time every week. This was then based on your %allocation to projects but you always had stuff like "10% to project fart" that it was never worth doing because who cares about remembering what they did down to that level, particularly when it's an on or off project. Unless there was something particularly relevant and time consuming every single week I'd put "40 hours - bau work" and nobody ever complained. Just allocate my time using the % split agreed and leave me alone. Bonus: of course you'd get two mega projects turn up in the year that you had no allocation to so they paid for nothing and just "stole" people from other projects as you couldnt have more than a 100% allocation.
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Jan 14, 2024 18:59
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Jan 14, 2024 21:24
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Powerful Two-Hander posted:Sundae are you actually working with this guy? absolutely pro watch also sundae easy solution counsel or coerce
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Jan 15, 2024 06:20
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drat what sketch group is that, that was hilarious. I love the idea of the test being a choose your own adventure with the obviously wrong answers branching off into their own thing lmao
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Jan 15, 2024 07:52
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I’ve been told to not spend over 45 minutes in time tracking and other internal admin stuff per week. It takes me 10-15 min tops, so as far as I’m concerned it’s 30 minutes of free time.
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Jan 15, 2024 08:03
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priznat posted:drat what sketch group is that, that was hilarious. "Not to her" as an answer to commenting on a female colleagues's clothes gets me every time, that is *exactly* the sort of thing that I remember hearing when I was a fresh graduate way back in the mid 00s.
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Jan 15, 2024 10:11
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priznat posted:I love the idea of the test being a choose your own adventure with the obviously wrong answers branching off into their own thing lmao
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Jan 15, 2024 11:53
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I dunno how I missed it on the first post but A+ watch
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Jan 15, 2024 14:50
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Yeah it’s good
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Jan 15, 2024 15:15
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priznat posted:drat what sketch group is that, that was hilarious. Gilly and Keeves. That's Shane Gillis. E: 'I've done that'
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Jan 15, 2024 15:18
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tactlessbastard posted:Gilly and Keeves. That's Shane Gillis. Ohhhh it’s that guy that got hired then fired by SNL for using racist slurs.. eek
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Jan 16, 2024 04:23
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A new role has been created in my division which I'm thinking of applying for. It looks a lot more impactful and interesting - but I'd be lying if I didn't say the biggest appeal is escaping from my trio of exasperating direct reports. Unfortunately the new role has five direct reports who may or may not be stable people. There is no escape
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Jan 16, 2024 05:22
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Jumpsuit posted:A new role has been created in my division which I'm thinking of applying for. It looks a lot more impactful and interesting - but I'd be lying if I didn't say the biggest appeal is escaping from my trio of exasperating direct reports. Front line management is the absolute worst/hardest management in most companies. You should work on making director or something ASAP if you intend to remain in management because "different reports" is unlikely to solve your issues (because they are endemic to managing ICs).
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Jan 16, 2024 16:58
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Old Guy shot himself in the foot during his HR interview in ways that I barely even know how to describe. They're off to Legal now, and I'm probably down an employee. TBD on that, but I don't see how he comes out the other side of Legal intact given some of the stuff he said to HR. And yep, got confirmation that I can't replace him. The headcount is just gone if he gets terminated. They'll not backfill, and instead I get to run a full department with exactly the number of people needed for minimum operation. The leanest lean.
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Jan 17, 2024 01:48
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Probably the least bad outcome--if you don't soon end up down two people after she gets ostracized and leaves.
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Jan 17, 2024 01:57
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Eric the Mauve posted:Probably the least bad outcome--if you don't soon end up down two people after she gets ostracized and leaves. Agreed. Also, it's not really a surprise that he blew up in front of HR when you already told us that he was building a case for them that this was pattern behavior the last time he talked to them.
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Jan 17, 2024 02:17
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Maybe they should be down another person and you leave?
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Jan 17, 2024 02:24
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