|
^^^ I believe you mean microns. Millimeters would mean fiber that's 6.25 cm in diameter... My house (built in 1976) has 100 amp service. There's a main panel at an outside corner with a 100A and 60A breaker. The 100A goes to a large load center in the garage which basically has all the internal house circuits. The 60A goes either to a subpanel on the side of the house where the aircon unit hooks in, or a subpanel in the back yard for the hot tub. I'd like to upgrade the service to 200A, and have a few electrical issues and questions. 1. When I moved in the hot tub and air conditioner subpanels (6 ga wire) were both hooked into the same 60 amp breaker on the main panel. I realize technically they probably wouldn't trip the breaker (hot tub is max 30A, aircon is max 50A, although I believe the aircon unit actually uses the incoming amperage to limit its fan, so it's always using 50A), but this seems illegal and unsafe. I removed the aircon wiring from that breaker, but I can't install a new breaker because the bus bars in that panel aren't long enough. Is this something where I can find longer bus bars, or do I have to replace the panel? (If there were longer bus bars they'd have to have mounting holes in the same place or I'd have to drill/tap new ones in the panel). 2. I want to put a new 100A load center in the garage for garage workshop circuits plus any additional circuits in future that I want to run into the house. I've gotten the impression I should be able to run this myself (2 ga wire with at least a 6 ga ground, yes?) and get the electrician who upgrades the service to check off on this as part of the permit he pulls to upgrade the service. Besides following code for the panel and wire run, anything I need to be aware of as regards this plan? 3. I recently put new lights in the garage (and painted it). There used to be two 2-tube T12 fixtures running off 14 ga Romex (stapled to joists, my garage ceiling is unfinished), now there's thirteen 2-tube T8 fixtures in 3 rows of 3, one row of 4, running off 12/2 THHN through EMT to the first fixture in each row, and solid 12/2 MC between fixtures in each row. However, I am an idiot and didn't realize that this would require permits (for some reason, I figured that permits were for "serious" things like running new panels). Also, the new conduit starts from the same place the Romex came out of the wall, which is to say the 14 ga Romex is joined to the THHN in a box there, and it's 14/2 Romex from there to the two switches that control the lights and back to the breaker panel. Unfortunately, that Romex is all in the two sides of my garage that ARE finished (and that I just finished painting). Is this against code to have larger gauge wire further on down the line? I would think it's against code if I upgraded the breaker to 20A or if I'd used smaller gauge than the 14, but joining larger gauge cable after the smaller gauge and with the breaker still at 15A, shouldn't this just be a case of "it's an ugly hack" rather than "it's dangerous"? (Also, nothing else is on that circuit and the lights total 760 watts, so there's no danger of overloading the 15A breaker). If this does require permits, is this also something I could theoretically get the electrician to sign off on as part of the electrical upgrade? The conduit and cable should all be to code (conduit strapped every 3', all connections in boxes, with boxes and thus conduit grounded to the grounding wire even though I think that's not strictly necessary). 4. Stupid not quite related question - I recently got a 230v compressor (3 HP Marathon Electric continuous duty motor), and I bought a bunch of 10/3 cable to run to it. The house was remodeled shortly before I got it, and they got rid of the second electric oven circuit (and according to the house inspector simply dropped that cable where it was in the crawlspace under the kitchen, hooray for that). That means I have an empty 30A breaker in the current subpanel, which appears to be two 15A bonded together. However, when I hook the compressor into it (one black wire into each breaker, neutral & ground into respective places), it trips the breaker(s) after a minute or so. Is this something I'm not understanding about the breakers (i.e. it doesn't actually work as a 30A but rather trips as soon as one leg pulls more than 15A?), or could it be a problem with the motor trying to pull more than 30A? (I'd understand if it tripped immediately as it would be a current-inrush problem, but it goes usually until the compressor reaches about 30 psi, which makes me wonder if the motor is then pulling more current to drive the pistons and tripping the breaker).
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2009 04:51
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 15:11 |
|
|
grover posted:You have two options: replace the panel, or move an existing circuit to a new subpanel, and use the freed up slots to feed the subpanel. Depending on the panel, you might also be able to replace some of the 15 or 20A breakers with piggyback breakers which let you install 2 breakers per slot. Yeah, moving something to the existing subpanel means running it to the garage, which isn't great, and I'd rather not install another new subpanel at the corner of the house. Do they make piggyback breakers in 100A size that I could use in the main panel? I would think that would get unsafe without much thicker bus bars. Sounds like I have to replace the panel. quote:The 60A is probably not going to your outside compressor, but the inside air handler. The electric "emergency heat" element is probably the single highest current draw in your house, with the AC compressor drawing far less. You'd need to pull up the equipment tables for both these items to find out. There's another easy way to tell, too- Got a clamp ammeter? Well, the actual electrical line goes to the outside compressor, or rather to a subpanel near it, which has a 50A breaker installed, and from there into the aircon. It's running through conduit attached to the outside of the house so it's not hard to trace. Didn't know the aircon had an emergency heat element (I guess this would be active if I set the thermo to "cool" and set the temperature to 80?). Unfortunately I don't have a clamp ammeter, keep meaning to get one. I'll look up the equipment and see what it requires. quote:Depends what kind of wire you're running. If you use romex, you'd need #1 romex. You could use #3 THHN, though, if the terminals are all rated for 90C. If the terminals are 75C, then you'd need #2. You can use #8 ground. It's OK to oversize. In fact, if this is for a garage workshop, you might want to oversize for voltage drop anyhow, even if the lengths are pretty short. OK. I'd rather oversize as well. Distance is about 40 feet from the main panel to running across the house into the garage, including going up and down the walls. I did want to run #12 exclusively, just didn't want to dig into the wall and fiddle with it, so it'll probably stay as a mixture and if I sell I'll warn the next homeowner. quote:This requires permits in just about every locality. The solution is easy, though: pull a permit as if you hadn't started the work yet, and then call them back a few weeks later to inspect it Yeah, I thought this might be a workable solution. quote:You mean two 15A breakers with a yoke? What you have is not a 30A 240V breaker, it's a 15A 240V breaker. You don't add the phases. Yes, two 15s with a yoke. That explains that. So I could just buy a 30A 240V and be done with it, if I decide not to run the subpanel (but then I only have one 30A 240V which isn't enough if I decide to get more 240V equipment, and that may be too much for that panel anyway since it's only getting fed by a 100A breaker and has the rest of the house circuits on it).
|
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2009 18:09
|
|
|
Whew. Just read two hundred something pages of this thread over the past two days to get caught up, in case my question was addressed. I probably should have been asking questions in this thread for the past three years...sorry about the incoming wall of text. The short attempt at backstory: 1976 house, Bay Area CA, mostly 14/2 Romex (CU). 125A main panel in, not on, outside wall, right above gas meter (legal in 1976, whoopee). 100A and 60A breaker in main panel, 60A feeding both AC disconnect and backyard hot tub disconnect (feeding both as in, two sets of wires inserted into the breaker....yeah). 100A breaker to subpanel in garage/kitchen wall. AL feeder from main to sub, which was just unceremoniously dropped in the crawlspace, just lying on the ground, yeah, good job there. Both panels FPE. Sigh. Been planning to do a main panel upgrade / replace for almost 10 years now. Internet claimed ~$4-7k for 400 amp (I tend to overkill everything). Internet did not know jack poo poo about Bay Area. $7k? $7k was the MINIMUM bid for just panel replacement with me running all the 8 new circuits. Most others bid $15-20k for the entire project. NOT including the 30 foot long 4 foot deep trench to the PG&E vault in my neighbor's yard, which bid at $8-11k because it crosses all the existing service so mechanized digging is out. This was in 2017, I can only imagine it'd be worse now. So, facing $30k cost I reluctantly said gently caress it and began to plan doing it myself. Before this my electrical experience was replacing all switches in my house and my parents' house with Zwave switches, a couple of outlet replacements, and changing the two T12 fluorescent fixtures in my garage to 13 T8 fixtures, so, not a complete n00b, but had never worked with anything larger than 12 gauge wire. My goal was to do it right and Cadillac it to the point electricians would go "you're an idiot who overspent". But usual story, I value my time at $0/hr so paying for figuratively gold plated parts was worth it for the labor savings and for knowing it was done with a lot of care and attention. Started December 2018, and after three years off and on, I'm about 90% done (working on trench for new conduit run to new AC disconnect / connecting to old conduit run to backyard using a Christy box and King DryConns, and after that it's just the minor detail of "4 foot deep 30 foot trench crossing all existing service with 3" PVC for PGE to run their 1/0 through". Piece of cake). So much for short backstory. My current (  ) questions, about the part of the process I don't quite understand and haven't been able to find a good answer yet via Google:1. How exactly does the PoCo/inspector dance go? My understanding is I get the new panel & circuit runs rough inspected, and I have my conduit run for PG&E to run service conductors. Then PG&E runs their stuff and then the inspector has to come back out and verify / final inspection before PG&E lights it up? Is this the reason the electricians who bid on the project mentioned having temp power, for that timeframe between when PG&E hooks up service vs when they light it up? I had thought the inspector was really only responsible to the main breaker and PG&E would deal with everything before that, meaning that once the inspector had passed the panel PG&E could just switch from old to new service at their leisure (which, knowing them, would be a lot of leisure). Subquestion 1A - Original plan was just replace main panel and leave the subpanel for later, but as I found out more about FPE, I decided to replace subpanel too. I thought about getting an electrician, but having wired the new main panel, I feel like replacing subpanel is doable. Question is, can I leave the SER run to just above the current panel (I'll be bringing all wires out of the wall into a trough, wirenut/Wago to new Romex or XHHW jumpers, and then down through nipples to new subpanel so it's all out of the firewall), and then have the new service switched on with the breaker for that SER off, I power essential things like fridge from the new circuits off new main panel for a weekend while I replace the subpanel, then have it inspected and throw the breaker? I know this is largely a question for my inspector/city, just want opinions from the pros about if this is a workable plan. 2. The PG&E greenbook is somewhat silent on exactly how far the trench / conduit is supposed to go. Am I supposed to run the conduit right into their vault? As much as I feel more confident about wiring in general than I did 3 years ago, I frankly don't feel at all comfortable getting close to those wires, and am somewhat concerned about the part of the trench within 5 feet of the vault where I'm almost certainly going to encounter buried conductors, my own if not my neighbors and (more worryingly) the actual transmission lines coming in from the sidewalk. I had all my lines located by a location service, not just 811, so I'm pretty confident on WHERE they are, I just don't like the idea of having to work around highly energized underground lines. Frankly it's complete bullshit in my opinion that I even HAVE to do all this poo poo - PG&E is, yet again, taking money coming and going by having the homeowner construct and pay for the underground service which PG&E will then own once constructed, but y'know, not much I can do about it. If you've read this far I appreciate it. Here's a picture of the wired main panel if anyone wants to get an idea of my current work, which I could have done better on but it turns out bending three ought is a goddamn bitch and a half and I decided to be happy with the routing I got. Also I wouldn't have needed the 3/0 except I hosed up in 2018 and didn't realize Schneider puts absurd MSRPs on their website, so instead of getting the QO CSED that actually has a 400 amp breaker, because SE listed it at $7k MSRP, I got the Homeline that has two 200-amp breakers so I needed to add a subpanel below the main (which is what the 3/0 and various 6ga are disappearing into at the bottom), plus it doesn't have PON - definitely the most irritating mistake to me since I wanted Cadillac and got Edsel, and only discovered later that the QO one probably was more like $1k street price. All the other subpanels are QO.  (I plan to remove about half the zipties before this goes live so I'm not technically bundling as much). I'll definitely have more questions but, y'know, this is already a book. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Apr 6, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Apr 6, 2021 02:31
|
|
|
>>You put in 400A of panel on a house with gas? Yes, I basically never wanted to be concerned about circuit load again, and when you're talking about thousands to dig a trench for new conductors, a couple hundred for a bigger panel and extra main breaker isn't much. The new panel had to be in a different spot anyway because of the aforementioned gas meter issue, so even if the old conductors could be used with a 200A upgrade they wouldn't have worked without more Christy box fuckery somewhere in the yard (as built, they stub up in conduit through the foundation right next to the gas meter). Also, I mean, it's 320A continuous, it's not 400 actual amps, not that I expect to get anywhere close to that anyway. >>Where's the neutral for that first panel? Do you mean the 3/0 for the first subpanel under the CSED? Tough to see from that picture but it goes to a lug halfway up just to the right of breaker space #8. Here's an earlier picture before adding breakers.  Everything by the way is torqued down to proper specs, with some extremely expensive torque wrenches. >>Is the nipple connecting your two panels metal? If so it needs a bonding bushing, same with the service gear to panel connection. Welp. poo poo. Yeah it's RMC, screwing into a hub on the panel below. That...means I have to pull all the cables back through, remove the plastic bushing, replace with bonding bushing, and rerun the cables? That's...unfortunate, and strikes me now as a rookie mistake, which was exactly the sort I was trying to avoid. (And here I was pleased with myself for making sure there was a bushing on it period). Is there any way to bond it without pulling the cables back through? I assume the locknut doesn't qualify because of the enamel underneath it? Obviously haven't run the conduit for service gear yet so that can be done, though wouldn't that be something PG&E does? >>Using those huge cable clamps is shoddy, there's no way they're gripping the wire correctly, what is that white stuff in there? Yeah this was going to be one of my followup questions. Before I understood how the double main breaker setup worked (which was unfortunately after I mounted the panel, remember when I said I should have been asking questions in this thread 3 years ago), I was planning to run the SER in through those and the Romex in separate holes. White stuff is polyester pull ribbon (the 2500 lb test stuff PG&E asks for for their conduit). I was aware this was not gonna work, so one of the questions was going to be how to fix it. The original clamps were round on the bottom, and I found replacements that had a bend in the middle to make the clamping area narrower. This mostly works for the one of the left that has the main water pipe ground wire, but it absolutely doesn't for the right one. The pull tape was a temporary solution and with it clamped down it does hold well enough, but yes, I was aware this was bullshit. (I could run another ground cable through the right side to go to the gas pipe, although this is already bonded near the water heater as usual, and the water is all copper, but I have no problem doing that through the right clamp if it'll be acceptable). These clamps, or rather the other side of them, are now caulked into the holes into the wall, so it would be preferred not to replace them, but if that's what needs to be done then I'll do it. If you have any other suggestions I'm all ears. I also had had a question about the acceptability of running Romex there period, but various electrician forums seemed to indicate that in CA it was just kind of accepted to run Romex directly through walls into panels outside, even though it's technically a wet location. And the alternative seemed to be running separate THWN / XHHW to an accessible trough inside and joining to Romex there, which seemed a little absurd. >>Do you have two meters? No. >>You can trim those curlicue neutrals to neaten things up, if you want. I might do that because they're really annoying, both space-wise and visually. >>Do you not have a permit already? Normally you pull the permit, then get it inspected, then have the power company hook it up. Call the utility and your municipality to answer your >>questions, it varies too much to answer your questions on permitting. Yes, I have a permit, revised three times in fact, as I got farther into the project. I guess I'll check with the inspector. >>E: are you going to put in a super sweet 40kW DC fast charger for an EV? Or two of them? You could probably do two. Yes, the subpanel underneath the main, besides the 125A breaker with 1-1-1-3 SER intended for the old garage subpanel, has a 100A with 3-3-3-5 going to a new subpanel in the garage which was intended for some combination of 1. woodworking tools, 2. welding, 3. EV chargers. I have no new circuits currently run to that new panel, just the SER terminated on its main breaker. I was going to finish this project first before figuring out what circuits to add there. Edit: Here's a picture of the subpanel under the CSED, in case there are any huge errors here. Since this picture was taken, I've added seven 6-ga XHHW cables running down the right side and out through the bottom, to go to the Christy box (two hots + ground to go to A/C disconnect, hot/hot/neutral/ground for backyard panel). All ground conduit is PVC however so shouldn't need a bonding bushing. Solid bare copper on left is the main grounding conductor, going up to main panel. It's connected through one of these.  SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Apr 6, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Apr 6, 2021 03:31
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:What size is your current PoCo conductor that 1/0 is an upgrade? For reference - the utility I work for would pull 350MCM AL for a legit 400A service. Y'know, I just looked back at the PG&E drawing I paid them $1500 for that's basically a printout of my neighborhood / lot lines with a purple line drawn in going from the vault to my new panel location (really guys? Good thing you drew that out for me, I otherwise might have just done the trench in a vague meandering S shape), and I think I've been misreading this. It looks like the existing service is in fact 1/0 TPX direct-buried (which....yikes, according to my neighbor who's been here since the development was built the electrical lines are barely a foot down). The new service is listed as "320 AMS 120/240V 3W 1 phase SCI=18,000", which 3 years ago was gibberish to me but I now mostly understand, unless AMS is a utility acronym and not a typo of AMPS. So it looks like they just haven't listed what they're going to pull. The drawing says the vault is a secondary splice box so I'm presuming not transformer, and it's definitely concrete (they actually replaced it with a bigger vault as part of this project, two years ago, and I got a glimpse of it briefly from 20 feet away before they chased me off). I did originally call 811 back in 2017 and they marked the conductors coming in from the street, so with that plus the locating service markings I have a decent idea of where all the dangerous poo poo is, but it's good to know I shouldn't have to connect right into the vault. I'll call PG&E to see how close I need to get, or rather, how far away I can be. I was rather hoping you'd chime in given your responses in the thread as a utility guy, so thanks, it's helpful to get that perspective. Also my denigration of PG&E should in no way be taken as a denigration of all utilities, utility people, or even people who work for PG&E. Just that their MO as a company seems to be cheap out where possible, grab all the money, and deal with the lawsuits when gas lines explode or transmission towers set the state on fire, so I have very low expectations when it comes to this particular utility. edit: if I get a Motronic response can I yell bingo
|
|
#
¿
Apr 6, 2021 04:19
|
|
|
Replacing subpanel in backyard, fed by 6 gauge THWN. Old panel had a 40 amp and 15 amp breaker. 15 amp was for convenience outlet in Handibox under panel as well as some bullshit hacked together garbage running perhaps landscape lighting? Still not sure but basically the PO had run a hot and neutral, which I'm pretty sure was just the innards of Romex i.e. not actual THHN not that it matters, out of a drilled hole in the top of the convenience outlet handibox 3 feet through empty air, put ferrules on the wire ends, and plugged them straight into the output of one of those old Intermatic heavy duty timers....which was plugged into the convenience outlet as its power source. This was confusing until I opened the handibox and realized the freeballing hot and neutral disappear down into the ground in the same 1/2 conduit as the actual 15 amp circuit wiring continues into - so who the gently caress knows what all of that is about, I don't care right now and it's disconnected). Anyway - 40 amp breaker was for hot tub, which is about 15 feet away from the panel location, so maybe 20 feet of wire run (and old breaker wasn't GFCI of course). Feed for hot tub is 8 gauge copper. My problem is, the hot tub manual says it should be on a 50 amp breaker but only uses 40 amps - I'm wondering if this was to account for continuous usage. The hot tub had in fact stopped working, whether the old breaker was on or not, which is maybe because the breaker couldn't actually take 40 amps continuous? (Subpanel is being fed by a 60 amp breaker in the main panel so that wasn't the issue, though there certainly were issues since that same breaker had the AC feed run into it, sure, yeah, just go ahead and put two 40-50 amp continuous loads on a 60 amp breaker and, y'know, two wires under each lug while you're at it). 310.16 says 8 gauge copper at 75 is 50-amp rated, but I'm seeing most people suggest 6 gauge for the run (though many are suggesting it with the idea that you'll at some point replace with a 60 amp hot tub, and that is not in my plans anytime soon). Replacing the run would be more pain in the rear end than I care to deal with right now, so I'd like an opinion before I talk to the AHJ as to whether I can put a 50 amp (GFCI) breaker in the new panel and reuse the 8 gauge.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 16, 2022 22:15
|
|
|
K yeah my post last page was too long and in the middle of someone else's issue, let me rephrase. Replacing 60A backyard panel fed by 6 gauge copper, with 8 gauge copper going from panel to hot tub. Hot tub manual says install 50A breaker, hot tub will draw 40A. Old breaker in old panel was 40A but had stopped passing current whether handle was on or off. 310.16 says 8 gauge at 75C is fine for 50 amps but everyone online says 6 is better - I really don't want to repull. Should I install a 50A (GFCI of course) breaker?
|
|
#
¿
Jul 21, 2022 18:47
|
|
|
movax posted:The only thing that fundamentally limits the amount of current you put through a conductor is thermal (if you ignore voltage drop) -- at some point its gonna get hot and melt the insulation off or disintegrate. The job of CBs is to protect downstream wiring, not devices and they don't give a poo poo about voltage drop. So, if you run 8 AWG wire, use the appropriate temp rating from the NEC ampacity table of the lowest temp (might be the breaker... if the wire can do 90 C but the breaker is 75 C, you have to use 75 C AFAIK). This is a whole house repanel, I'm replacing the three existing panels and adding two new ones plus some new circuits, it doesn't have to make sense financially because the math is the usual (mytime=$0 + cost of materials) OR (paying Bay Area electrician for T&M=$mostofthesolarsystem and it's done professionally but maybe not OCD-perfectly). The backyard panel was the only one that wasn't a fire-tastic Federal Pacific, but I'm pretty sure it was similarly original to the house (mid-1970s) and had lots of rust on it - $40 for a new 6-space QO is fine with me. (I bought the panel in 2020, I'm sure it's $100 now). Also, this IS a subpanel and has a 50A and 20A, fed from a 60A breaker at the main panel, but the 20A is a convenience outlet and I will probably never use it - I certainly doubt I'd ever be pulling 20A off it simultaneous to the hottub pulling 40A.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 21, 2022 19:34
|
|
|
IOwnCalculus posted:I'm slightly surprised the 40A never nuisance-tripped* if the expected load from the tub is 40A, plus startup spikes, but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't put a 50A breaker in there instead. That was actually my thought, given that yeah it was a QO breaker but it was a 30 year old one (house is mid 70s but hot tub is from 1991), so the tolerances were probably not great and running at 40 amps continuous probably fried something internally. I also assume that's why the hot tub manufacturer says use a 50A breaker so it can run at 80% for hours. Either way, I'm gonna stick with the 50A breaker, thanks folks. Only question now is whether the Aeotec heavy duty Zwave switch I've got hooked between breaker and tub will take the load - manual says don't exceed 40A but does that mean it can it handle 40A continuous? Guess we'll find out.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 22, 2022 06:59
|
|
|
Motronic posted:lol. Just lol. Serious question, since I'm just about done on redoing my entire electric by myself other than hiring someone to dig the 4' deep trench to the PG&E vault because gently caress that noise, and am about to plan a full solar off-grid install (and to be clear, not some dinky rear end 10 kW system, an actual attempt at grid replacement): what would be your criteria for someone knowing enough for you to offer advice? I 100% understand that you do not want to be helping someone out who doesn't know enough and your advice would just get them further into dangerous situations, but it seems like once someone knows enough they wouldn't need your advice anyway. I guess the question is, is this thread just for wiring switches and lights and anything more serious is kneejerk call an electrician?
|
|
#
¿
Sep 6, 2022 19:21
|
|
|
Motronic posted:So in your case, if you're not an engineer or engineer adjacent and have not designed and installed these types of systems before and came into the thread thinking you're gonna do this without an engineer or engineered solution from a vendor then no - I'm not likely to engage any further than telling you to find something prepackaged or contact an engineer. But I'd absolutely be game to discus the relative merits of which solutions you've found and are considering, install methods, etc. and challenges/solutions along the way. Sometimes even when you know what you're doing a second set of eyes on what you've done or some experience from outside your region with parts/tools/methods ends up being a great way to learn some new tricks. That's fair and probably about what I expected. At the moment I'm still very much doing research and to be frank I haven't yet looked for engineered solutions that fit what I want. That said, I had certainly intended to get an engineer at some point since I recognize the many dangers inherent in all of this - additionally, this will be permitted in a fairly populated California county so I can't yeehaw a solution together and expect the county to go sure yeah looks great no problem. At the moment I'm weighing the pros/cons of microinverters vs putting panels in series to get high-voltage DC (300-400 volts) for a high voltage and relatively high wattage (30-50 kW) inverter to more efficiently generate 240 split-phase and charge a storage battery at high voltage (though I'm not one of those morons repurposing Model 3 batts, this would be a real battery from, ideally, a company that isn't just rebadging poo poo from Alibaba). Dealing with 300+ volts DC obviously has a major advantage in wiring costs/ease since I don't need literal shipping containers of copper, but has a major disadvantage in that, well, it's loving 300 volts DC  Microinverters give me 240 AC straight out, but charging batteries is then more inefficient and more importantly, conforming to UL 1741 means they don't output power unless they're getting "grid" input, so I'd have to fake that essentially. (I think Enphase's 8 series now allow you to do this but may require the Enphase batteries to fake the grid input - only glanced briefly at the datasheet and have to look more into it). The Enphase ones are also essentially limited to ~500 watt solar panels. Anyway I don't think I know enough at the moment to request advice so you don't need to bother responding to any of that, but just wanted to get a sense of how knowledgeable I need to be, and I completely understand your criteria - one of those instances where what at first seems like gatekeeping knowledge is in fact preventing people from hurting themselves or others, because they don't know enough to properly use the knowledge they're asking for.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 6, 2022 21:01
|
|
|
Extant Artiodactyl posted:enphase is utility interactive, i have not seen anything for a true off-grid system. also, knowing the limitations of that battery system firsthand, it Ain't What You're Looking For. even in a utility interactive scenario, wait at least one hardware revision for a way around the zigbee + bluetooth reliance. if system components aren't close enough to use it, the manufacturer solution is to bridge the wireless communications with a usb dongle. so if you had a ground mount array or a battery shed, they would want you to put an outdoor outlet in the middle of the run to power the dongle. This is all helpful info, thank you. I'm definitely aware of the single point of failure and that was a big con of doing a single inverter. Interesting about the Enphase batteries - I really don't feel the need to buy one manufacturer's entire product line unless they are so far above the other various solutions in every category that it clearly makes sense and I hadn't yet looked closely at the Enphase batteries so I didn't realize they were reliant on Zigbee/Bluetooth. While I want to properly integrate all of this into home automation for monitoring etc (and have connected a couple other systems' Enphase Envoys to home automation at friends' houses), relying on low-power low-range mesh wireless for actual operation is absolutely not what I'd call reliable. Extant Artiodactyl posted:i understand that the real deal, completely disconnected off-grid is its own goal for its own reasons Yeah the way I see it, A) the CA utilities are getting closer and closer to penalizing people for investing in solar and only narrowly were defeated last fall when they tried to push through an $8/kW of installed solar monthly fee (so if you have a 10 kW system you get $80 added to your bill right at the top), and B) the CA grid is creaky at best and failing at worst as evidenced by hitting a few megawatts below peak capacity today with rolling blackouts, and this will only get worse as all the electric vehicles, induction stoves, and heat pump water heaters come online that have been mandated by banning gasoline vehicles and natural gas hookups. Both of which, don't get me wrong, I'm fully in agreement with, but it definitely seems like someone forgot to add to the legislation "oh yeah and we'll invest in new power generation to account for these massive changes". And by "forgot" I mean why would we invest in infrastructure, I'm sure the poo poo we have left over from the 1950s will work fine. It's great, everything's fine, I saved the state money while improving the environment and I'll definitely be re-elected now! Anyway, given all that yer drat right that I'd rather invest in my own microgrid, even if I'd prefer to wait until solar panels reach 40+% efficiency "in a few years" (which has been said every year since 2000) and battery energy density doubles or triples, which probably won't happen for 50 years unless some material scientist genius comes along. edit: yes I'm aware perovskite might ACTUALLY give us greater than 23% in a relatively short timeframe like 2024, and y'know, I really hope that happens, but given how nanosolar was supposed to happen in 2012, and then 2014, and then 2019, and then "nope", plus all the rest of the times someone's promised actual useful efficiency in panels, I'm really not holding my breath. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Sep 7, 2022 |
|
#
¿
Sep 7, 2022 03:12
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:Well, boo. This is a Dell laptop cable, and apparently they've gone over to the Apple scheme of profits through fragility. Hi-ho, off to the parts store. Do you seriously not know any computer people? As someone mentioned, they would have a lifetime supply of IEC cords (and probably figure 8 and Mickey mouse cords too). I have at least two drawers.....three drawers full of the things and whenever I get a new monitor or other computer device, I pretty much toss the included cord because I certainly don't need more.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 14, 2022 20:55
|
|
|
Edit: this is a long post full of blithering, just so you're warned. Hello wiring thread! It's me, the guy replacing everything electrical in his 1970s house other than some Romex and a few outlets. I've been working at a speedy pace...for a glacier (pretty sure my first post about this was in 2013), and according to the time-honored equation of "parts = $, my time = $0, spending $themoon on parts makes sense because it's still cheaper than an electrician  ", this project involves some overkill - 125A old main panel to new 400A main and assorted other "wtf you don't need that what is you doing" items. Finally getting to the finish line, and managed to have everything in place for a rough inspection mid-December. And uh, well. Thing is, I'm doing my best to learn and know what I'm doing, and I'm one for details and making sure everything is 100% beyond reproach in correctness, but I'd sort of relied on the idea that at the end of the day the inspector would point out anything horribly wrong and in general verify the major items with me. Inspector showed up, spent 5 minutes looking at my plans, walked out to the main panel, looked it over for about 5 minutes, asked I think two questions, marvelled at the fact I'd used Cadweld for my ground rods (and took a picture "to show the guys"), and then said looks good, wrote "rough inspection passed" on the permit and walked off. He didn't look at the new wiring under the house, at the new outlets in the house, or ask any of the small detailed questions I was expecting or preparing for. For instance the fact that I'd bothered to get a raintight rigid terminal adapter for the old conduit stubbing up in the Christy box I'd put in to reterminate the run to the backyard panel (as opposed to an EMT TA) seemed utterly inconsequential since he barely even looked in the box (now that I think about it, he never looked at the new backyard panel either). I mention that part specifically because it was such a bitch to find - I would have thought a raintight rigid TA would be right next to the EMT one in HD or Lowe's but nope, and my local electrical supply would only order them in quantities of five. Pain in the dick. Speaking of ( ), my impression is that a better solution to "how do you properly terminate a conduit in a Christy box that wires are coming out of" is a bell end adapter? But as I recall that was even more expensive or hard to find (this was in July last year, I honestly can't remember). Those cables aren't rubbing on any sharp edges which is frankly what I think I need to care about, and the connections are in DryConns so should be good - I understand the new hotness is Polaris but oh well.Anyway as far as that inspection, obviously my ego tells me "you did such a good job he had no complaints" but since I don't really want to trust that answer and because I'm ALREADY suspicious of how much of a poo poo anyone in California gives about any building or code related correctness, my guess is he's used to things being slapped together like complete poo poo barely meeting code and I managed to surpass that exceedingly low bar. So, instead of trusting that the inspector will catch any major mistakes much less minor ones, I'd rather check with the hivemind here for the remaining item I have, which is the replacement of the current garage subpanel (once new main panel is live - I'm not touching the currently live garage subpanel, no thanks). Picture of current in-wall panel with drywall cut out to the size of the backing board I've cut for the new pull box and new panel:  Picture of pull box (top) and new panel:   The plan is to have this fully prewired (12 ga THHN individual hot & neutral wires from breakers through 1.25" nipple into pull box, plus hot/neutral 10 ga THHN for dryer, hot/neutral 8 ga THHN for range), with holes cut in back of pull box using Greenlee slugbusters, corresponding holes drilled in backing board behind that, various NM clamps mounted into holes, and pull box / panel mounted to backing board with mounting holes for lag screws drilled in backing board such that the replacement of the old panel consists of: 1. Disconnect wires (to be temp labeled with old and new circuit numbers first) from inside of old now-dead panel and pull up into wall. Remove old panel and go Office Space on it probably. 2. Brace new backing board/panel assembly against bottom of the drywall cut and slowly tilt into place while simultaneously: 3. Running wires through NM clamps in back of pullbox until backing board is tight to studs at which point: 4. Fasten board to studs with lags through predrilled holes and finish connecting wires in the pull box. (All connections there will be lever Wagos). 5. Get final inspection. Incidentals like caulk around drywall/backing board interface. My thought is that since this new garage panel (Panel 2) is fed from not only a breaker but that breaker is in a separate subpanel (Panel 1A) underneath the main panel outside (Panel 1, which I purchased as a CSED with two 200-amp breakers instead of one 400-amp, didn't realize what that meant until I'd learned more "how to electrician" 3 years later at which point main panel had long been mounted on a wall I'd entirely rebuilt to do so, WHOOPS GUESS I'M ADDING ANOTHER SUBPANEL), I'd not only have that inside-Panel1A breaker be dead but also the CSED's breaker to Panel 1A dead and LOTOd until Panel 2 is wired and inspected. "Is that an acceptable plan" was another question I had for the inspector, but he basically walked off before I had a chance. Anyway, I'd welcome comments / notes / "haha what the gently caress"s on this plan and the setup. A couple more notes/questions: 1. Backing board will be primed and then painted on all sides with intumescent paint. One of the only comments the inspector had was to also suggest using intumescent pads behind the panel/pullbox so I'll do that as well on top of the paint. Why would I use intumescent paint at $80/gallon? WELL YOU SEE, MY TIME IS WORTH ZERO SO....also at this point I HAVE the paint moldering in my cabinet so it's really an issue of "what can I paint with it, poo poo was expensive". 2. Should I drill individual holes in the backing board for the NM clamps, or just one large oval/rectangular hole? Latter would be easier but my suspicion is individual is better for board integrity and general "don't expose the wall cavity". By the way, this is absolutely the wall between the kitchen and garage. Hm, shouldn't that type of wall have insulation? ONE WOULD THINK. 1970s California builders, everyone - it's a pile of poo poo all the way down. 3. My plan is to ground all the wires coming into the pullbox with a grounding bar in the pullbox, shown at the left in the picture. Then what I haven't calculated but is probably a 4 or 6 ga wire to a small ground bar in the main panel where the feeder ground is terminated (I have the SquareD lugs to screw to the regular ground bar to accept a 3 gauge ground). Any concerns with that idea? 4. I believe pullbox is sized correctly for the number of junctions/wires (one 30A dryer, one 40A range, six 20A, nine 15A circuits), as should be the 1.25" nipple for the THHN wires (60% max fill as a nipple). Yes? 5. Originally pullbox and thus nipple was also going to have the 1-1-1-3 SE feeder cable but I changed how that's routed - it's now coming up at the bottom of the studbay the current panel's in and I'm thinking I'll just have it come in through the back of the new panel itself (another hole in backing board) and then up to the lugs which also allows me to incorporate a bit of a service loop. 6. The screw type NM clamps, and SE feeder clamp - OK to put clamp side in box, so I can tighten screws once panel is mounted to wall? Yet again something else I was going to ask inspector but didn't get a chance. Internet results seem to waffle on this. 7. Anyone hate the T&B plastic NM clamps I'm showing? They seemed faster and easier than the screw type, albeit presumably less solid. Each is rated for two 12/2 NM (and with six 20A and nine 15A circuits, 8 of these clamps should do it - the 1/2" screw clamp is for dryer 10 gauge and 3/4" screw clamp for range 8 ga). Closeup:  I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting but since most people stopped reading five paragraphs ago I'm gonna stop now. Hope you enjoyed the novel. One last note, having done the trenching out of the 5 foot run to the Christy box, the hole for that, and a 6 foot run from there to the post I put in the ground for the new AC disconnect: gently caress TRENCHING. I am never doing that poo poo myself again (which is why I will be paying a guy almost five loving figures to hand dig the 40 foot trench and run the conduit from the new main panel to the PG&E vault - money well spent in my view). On the plus side I'm pretty good with a jackhammer now so that's nice I guess? SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jan 7, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Jan 7, 2023 07:11
|
|
|
shame on an IGA posted:My only guess would be concern that the existing romex is too short to reach the new panel? Yeah they probably would but aren't they excessively European? This is Amurrica I don't hold truck with no got dang European ...Wagos are European you say? Ah, well, nevertheless But yes the concern is that the existing Romex is far too short - there's already splices (which frankly look like they're just in-line-twisted-together-and-taped, no wirenuts and I highly doubt it's Western Union splice) in several of the runs in the existing panel and I really would prefer to take those out. The other advantage of this to my mind (especially with Wagos) is that the panel replacement is essentially prewired and the actual install time is thus greatly shortened since it's just running the old NM into the pullbox, stripping ends, connecting the Wagos and grounds into ground bar. As far as performatively overbuilt, I mean sure, I guess? It's more that I'm sick and tired of how badly everything is done in this house and seemingly California in general, and given that, again, it's not that expensive to overbuild in this case, I'd rather have it be something I never have to worry about again. I currently have FPE panels, i.e. closely related to the ones that set your house on fire, I've already had two cases of outlets scorching due to the lovely 1970s crimp connectors (you know, put two wires next to each other, fold a piece of tin around them and "crimp" with your linemans), and if I'm going to go to all the trouble of replacing all this poo poo I don't want to ever touch it again or be concerned about it burning my house down. But yes, other than novel length posts here I'm not performing for anyone, I'm not loving posting on social media "look at my electrical panel" or some poo poo, sorry it comes off as performative but that wasn't really the intent. Anyway I originally didn't want the pullbox and I completely agree that having all those connections is irritating and adding another point of failure, but unless I move the new panel up the wall two feet from where the old panel is I won't have enough slack to connect wires to breakers, and with my goal being to make that particular panel replacement as quick as possible (like, over a weekend) so that I can get the majority of the house powered again once power is run to the new panel, the pullbox seemed like the best choice. I'm completely open to suggestions if someone has them as to how to change that without moving the new panel up or taking a long time to replace the old panel. edit: since I didn't make it clear, even with all this performative overbuilding the parts and various tools have still cost me slightly less than just the amount I will be paying someone to hand-dig a 40 foot long x 4 foot deep trench and run conduit through it, never mind the rest of the work. DIY wasn't actually my original plan back in 2015 - I got bids from electricians, and where the Internet said "an electrician will charge 2 to 4 thousand dollars for this panel replacement and a few hundred dollars for 12 circuits", the cheapest bid I got for all that work was twenty-two thousand dollars, which did not include A) the 40 foot trench or B) replacing the existing garage subpanel. (One bid was $7k just to replace the main panel, literally just hang the new CSED on the wall outside). Perhaps people are not familiar with how stupid trades pricing is in the Bay Area... SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jan 10, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Jan 10, 2023 01:55
|
|
|
devicenull posted:I'm kinda surprised you don't really have any room for spare breakers there. If I were doing a panel swap, I'd definitely leave room for new circuits. You've got what, one open space? There's I think three open spaces in that panel, but A) I have a new 100-amp 24 space panel run elsewhere in the garage that's currently completely empty and B) there's 8 or so open spaces in the new main CSED outside, plus technically another 6 spaces or so in the subpanel outside under the CSED that I had to add because I hosed up and bought a (2) 200-amp breaker CSED instead of (1) 400-amp main and had already mounted it when I figured that out. This replacement panel in the pictures is just to get rid of the existing Federal Pacific subpanel buried in the garage/kitchen wall so I just needed to provide enough spaces for those existing circuits - I don't intend to run any new circuits here. The new 100A subpanel will be for EV charger & other new garage circuits, and either that or the CSED would be where I land more general circuits - I already have 12 new circuits going into the CSED as part of this work. Solar is in the future but that will be going into the CSED outside as well.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 10, 2023 02:13
|
|
|
slurm posted:For anyone looking to performatively over engineer, we've been having a lot of gremlins from spring terminals on din rails at the 17 year mark on this job I wasn't actually going to change to DIN terminals but this is good to know. I wouldn't have trusted them anyway as the backstab debacle tells me I shouldn't have springs anywhere in my electrical system (thus lever-action Wagos not the stab kind). It might have gotten lost in my still absurdly long reply, so if anyone does have a better solution than "giant pullbox and 60 Wagos" for how to rewire a bunch of NM that I need to bring out of the wall and is already too short (and I don't want to move the new panel two feet up the wall), I'm all ears.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 11, 2023 02:24
|
|
|
The thing I was actually gonna post: my friend who lives in a much rainier section of CA sent me this photo.  That is, in fact, water dripping OUT of his main breaker handle. As far as we can determine right now (limited ability to check because of continuing rain i.e. he doesn't want to be holding the panel open), it might be coming through the weatherhead and dripping down past the meter? But we don't know for sure. Raintight hub on the top of the panel looks relatively sealed. He found out because when PG&E supposedly restored his power, he was getting a zap by touching that plastic handle of the main breaker  And this is why putting electrical panels outside, even supposedly raintight ones, is just loving stupid. 
|
|
#
¿
Jan 11, 2023 02:34
|
|
|
H110Hawk posted:I wouldn't worry about it. Yes it should be gfci for safety and modern code, no I would not spend the scratch right now. Don't drop your dryer in the sink while it's plugged in. I performatively overengineered my dryer by mounting it on a DIN rail so it can't fall into the sink  edit: did you know Wago makes a carrier to mount the lever nuts on a DIN rail SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jan 12, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Jan 12, 2023 23:02
|
|
|
DaveSauce posted:if your bidet doesn't have a 20hp pump then you're not living life to the fullest Injection injuries are extremely serious you know, I wouldn't be joking about that.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 31, 2023 20:58
|
|
|
H110Hawk posted:Jesus christ, Tripp-lite was donated to the federalist society and then they sold it for $1.65bn? No wonder they have unlimited funding. wait what  I mean I hated Tripp-Lite because their products always seemed....tinny, for lack of a better word, but ..... what?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 9, 2023 21:06
|
|
|
Hed posted:
FTFY
|
|
#
¿
Mar 12, 2023 03:08
|
|
|
It's always interesting how small line voltage wires actually are. Finally finishing up my years long panel(s) upgrade project and wiring up the new garage subpanel, which has a large pull box mounted above it since I'll need to pull the old wires out of the wall and they won't have enough length to make it down into the panel (old panel was in-wall, new one will be surface mount). I've got a 1.25" nipple (5 inches long) between the two and I just finished wiring the hot and neutral jumpers from the breakers up into the pull box, and the nipple was looking pretty full so I figured I'd do a conduit fill calc just to make sure. (18) 14 ga conductors, (12) 12 ga conductors, there'll be (3) 10 ga and (3) 8 ga as well. Total fill? Barely breaking 30%, and here I was worried I might be getting close to the 60% limit. Just for kicks I added to the calc the 3 ga ground that will be running from the panel up into the pull box (going to land all the grounds up there so I'm not running them all down into the panel for no reason, and run a 3 ga jumper between the ground bar in pullbox and the one in panel), and that puts it at 45% or so total fill, i.e. actual space used, even if code doesn't care about the ground. Just looks a lot more full than it is.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 3, 2023 09:03
|
|
|
Finished up my garage subpanel: and pull box (gutter) wiring:  Don't @ me about zipties, I know they're bundling and Real Electricians would never use them but on the other hand A) I want it to stay organized and B) I can always cut them off in a few months when the wires have learned what to do. Also I use Hakko cutters, pushing down against the head of the tie while snipping, guaranteeing there are no sharp edges. Now I just have to wait for PG&E, once again, to get off their loving rear end and actually come pull the cable through the conduit I just paid someone thousands of dollars to trench and run for me. (37 feet of 3" conduit buried 3.5' down, but crossing all the existing utilities except water, which meant a ditch witch was out, and this is basically solid clay so hand digging requires jackhammering - I was more than happy to pay someone else). I forget if I've mentioned this but it's always worth mentioning again, gently caress PG&E with a rusty spike (but not a rusty hook because they'll burn down California. ......again) edit: before anyone asks what the red goop is under the mounting lags - these two boxes are mounted on a piece of plywood that I covered with two or three coats of primer and then three thick coats of intumescent paint, but the inspector for whatever reason asked me to add fire rated putty (also sold as acoustic putty pads for electrical boxes) between the panel/gutter and the plywood, even though he knew I was using intumescent paint. So the back of both boxes is completely covered with those putty pads and the lag screws have just squashed it into the box. Not sure if he wanted me to do this to cover his bases because it's a homeowner DIY or if this is now commonly done when mounting cans on plywood, but whatever, given the total cost of the project it was a minimal add and I'm certainly not opposed to more fire prevention. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Sep 11, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2023 22:59
|
|
|
Motronic posted:The wires have already learned what they need to do. As long as you're bundling them tightly with anything you've down rated them. This is not a unique situation: it's the same reason there are maximum box and conduit fill tables. Hm good to know the bolded. OK well at this point I'm pretty sure this panel will be sitting as it is for a month until PG&E pulls the new main feeder to the new main panel (pictured earlier in this thread, like, five years ago earlier). I thought about replacing the existing panel and using the old feeder temporarily in this new panel, but I would either have to open a knockout / cut a hole in the backer board to properly feed the old feeder into this new panel (which I'd then be closing up), or I'd have to bring the old feeder out of the wall above the hole I've cut for this backer board and run it down into the new panel, i.e. keep the dead front off until the new feeder is live, which is obviously unsafe and there's the minor irritation of patching that drywall. So I'm probably just going to leave it sitting for now - the new feeder for this subpanel is on a breaker in the main (technically....a breaker in the secondary 200-amp subpanel under the main because I bought a (2) 200-amp main panel instead of a (1) 400-amp panel in 2017, because I knew much less about panels at the time), so I'll make sure that breaker is LOTOd and once PG&E connects the new main, I'll rip out the old panel, install the new, connect the feeder in and connect the actual wires in the pull box, and flip the breaker. I'll cut the zipties before flipping the breaker - need to do that in the main as well, but those have been there for, uh, three years now so they should be well and truly solid in their positions. It's just that I am SO CLOSE to finally getting that loving Stablok out of my house...I feel like every day I'm letting it sit there is another day of borrowed time, but I suppose it's been there for almost 50 years at this point and hasn't yet burned the house down (knocks on every piece of wood nearby).
|
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2023 23:15
|
|
|
SpartanIvy posted:I can never post pictures of my breaker panel in this thread now If it makes you feel better, I started planning this project in 2013, "broke ground" in 2017, and .....might be finished by October (although I guess my actual construction work is done other than ripping old panel down, mounting new, and connecting feeder and circuit wires). Granted it's not like I was working day in day out, I basically did it in chunks of about a week each and then stopped for years at a time, but yeah this was not an efficient project time-wise. And I'm very sure a pro could have done as good a job in half or less the working time (and a "to code, passes inspection" job in 1/5 the time). Basically, I picked cheap and good out of the FCG triangle, although that said it's not that cheap parts-wise, check out all those QO PAFGF breakers and the 30 and 40 amp GFCI breakers. Woof. And I Cadwelded my ground rods and used all copper SER (80 feet of 1-1-1-3, 60 feet of 3-3-3-5 for the other garage subpanel) instead of aluminum. And yet, still a fraction of what I would have paid an electrician around here 
|
|
#
¿
Sep 12, 2023 01:06
|
|
|
Blackbeer posted:Bundling/derating rule only kicks in after 2' so I wouldn't worry too much. Yeah I know it's 2', but a lot of people say that any derating is bad. I'll probably snip the ties when I mount the backerboard in place. The existing subpanel is buried in-wall with wires running down into it inside the wall. The new panel similarly has most of its knockouts on the top, so I can't bring circuits in from the back - thus I have the j-box for circuits to come out of the wall with jumpers going down into the breakers. The black connectors in the j-box are T&B 3201 plastic clamps (rated for two 12/2 NM each), which is the only part of this that is kinda chintzy and I should have just stuck with regular NM clamps, but too late now. The two NM clamps I did use in the j-box are for the 10/3 dryer NM and 8/3 oven NM. I have a post a few pages back about conduit fill, but yeah that was a worry when I put all the conductors in because it LOOKS very full - however, a lot of those conductors are 14 ga not 12, and doing the calc it doesn't even hit 40%, much less the 60% that's acceptable because it's a nipple shorter than 24". I actually wanted the service wires looping around the right side of the panel and up to provide more of a service loop in case there was a need for some reason (it's always a bit nerveracking to me to be cutting a very expensive cable to the theoretical exact right length). Not exactly sure how I'm going to route them just yet but I'm going to do my best to put them under all the circuit wires, which will be extra super fun with 1 gauge wire but at least it's easier than wrestling the 3/0 from the main panel to the auxiliary main panel was...
|
|
#
¿
Sep 12, 2023 03:36
|
|
|
Elem7 posted:Between the 2 panels I'm pretty sure you're exceeding 2' there, I would definitely say its continuous through the nipple. Inspector didn't care about the clamps, not that that says anything about whether it's to code or not. But no, other side will not be accessible as it will be facing into a wall. I don't actually understand how NM clamps are supposed to work on the back of a panel that's mounted on a board when the board is mounted on a wall with wires coming out of it (which seems like it would be a pretty common scenario), if it weren't done like this with the screws on the interior. I'll post a pic tomorrow of the board and the mounting location so it makes more sense. I decided not to bother with allowing expansion in this panel because I ran a whole separate 100 amp 24-space subpanel into the garage for EV charging, welding hookup, and just general garage stuff. So this panel is literally just "replace the old 'will-set-my-house-on-fire' Stablok panel to service the existing circuits running to this location", and I'll put any new circuits in the new subpanel. Also, I ran about 12 new circuits into the new main panel outside, and that still has room for expansion, so yeah this panel doesn't need it. (With the small 60-amp panel in the backyard and the 200-amp auxiliary main panel under the CSED, the house now has five electrical panels, which is uh, perhaps, just a bit, maybe a LITTLE ridiculous, but listen, shut up).
|
|
#
¿
Sep 12, 2023 09:18
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:Looked it up. Goddrat do I hate automatic vacancy sensors. Spent too much time waving an arm above my head because the sensors didn't detect me because I was sitting still typing. FYI, there's a revolution quietly happening in this field with millimeter wave radar sensors. Not only do they detect presence without motion as opposed to the PIR kind (which has been around for half a century and is most well known for creating the issue you're describing), but depending on how complex they are, they can detect multiple presences, height of said presences, and things like if one presence goes from standing to on the floor very quickly (i.e. fall detection). At the moment most of the available models are noname stuff off Aliexpress, but there are some actual companies in the home automation field releasing branded sensors and they may finally allow the holy grail of home automation, properly tracking where someone is and automating things literally around them.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 18, 2023 21:50
|
|
|
H110Hawk posted:Speaking of things we definitely won't discover cause brain cancer: https://guru.inc/ . Someone I know works there which is how I learned it exists at all. quote:A fundamental departure from previous power transfer methods, GuRu employs proprietary “Smart Lensing” technology that enables the use of focused energy beams for highly efficient power transfer. Our Smart Lensing pinpoints specific targets for power delivery rather than flooding an entire room with wireless energy.  And uh.....what happens when a big sack of meat and water happens to get in the way of this, as they put it, "focused energy beam"? (huh where have I heard that nomenclature before oh well I can't remember surely it'll come to me) I'm not one for OM 5 GEEZ CAUSES CANCER but uh, that doesn't mean I want radio beams in my house to be anything that could be called high power.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 19, 2023 04:06
|
|
|
FISHMANPET posted:Also I think for shared neutrals specifically, I think that's a case where you need an arc fault breaker? And specifically a very expensive dual pole breaker. My old panel had one of those protecting the two K&T circuits, which have all thankfully been removed with the new panel. I haven't posted much about the final days of my panel upgrade mostly because going back over the insanity that PG&E put us through would make me smash my keyboard, but once I replaced the main subpanel it turned out I had some troubleshooting & breaker replacements to do as I hadn't fully grokked the stupidities of the old wiring and one of those stupidities was exactly what you describe. Specifically that the dishwasher/disposal are on an MWBC, which was apparently all the fuckin' rage back in the 70s/80s (as far as I know it was common until the early 2000s). So because of the shared neutral on those I had to buy a QO215CAFI, two pole 15 amp combined arc fault breaker, and those things are loving impossible to find. I eventually ended up buying it from a place in Virginia which would only deliver locally, having them drop it off at my brother's house as he lives there, and having him ship it across the country, because they were the only place that was selling for around real street price ($120) - the places I could find that would ship to me wanted a minimum of $250 for this loving thing, with one place quoting $500. Irony is, this was all because of my desire to meet 2020 code, i.e. AFCI everywhere, but because of the 70s dryer wiring being actual 2 hots + neutral (not 4 wire, no ground lying unused in the box or at the panel), I had to replace the 30 amp GFCI I'd installed for the dryer with a regular 30 amp. I'm aware that all electricians think GFCI on dryer is stupid and a waste of money, before anyone jumps down my throat about it, but still kind of annoying that at the very end of the process where I had hoped to have a fully code-compliant wiring environment I technically don't. This presumes of course the inspector is OK with non-GFCI dryer, but he's been pretty loose so far. The dryer isn't that far away from this subpanel so if I had to run a new 4-wire it wouldn't be impossible, but after <mumble mumble> years doing this project I really just kind of want to be done. And I'm almost done, other than one breaker in the new main panel that's tripping, which I really hope is because I miswired something in a box and not because the people who did my foundation bolting last year drilled through a wire  .
|
|
#
¿
Feb 4, 2024 21:00
|
|
|
Shifty Pony posted:I am looking at 2-pole AFCI circuit breakers to protect a multiwire circuit that feeds most of my upstairs. Currently the two circuits in a QO sub panel, but they were originally in a BR main panel. There are short lengths of THHN wire connecting the ends of the NM cable in the main panel to the breakers in sub panel. There is plenty of room in the main panel, the sub panel was originally behind a transfer switch for standby generator that wasn't capable of running the whole house. Hahahaahahahahahaha I literally just went through this after discovering my dishwasher and disposal were somehow still a MWBC even though the kitchen was supposedly redone studs-up in 2005, and I ended up ordering the QO215CAFI for $122 from Dominion Electric Supply, which only delivers to Virginia and Maryland (where I am decidedly not), having them deliver to my brother, and paying UPS $20 to ship it across the country. I'm fairly sure it was NOT in stock at Standard Electric Supply per the above post, since I searched high and low for a place that wasn't charging, quote, MSRP (thanks Schneider for having literally the highest MSRP:street price ratio of any company ever) and didn't find it at Standard Electric. Anyway they're not completely unobtainable, just mostly unobtainable. On the plus side, you're pretty much guaranteed to get a fairly new breaker (mine was made I think in the 48th week of 2023), because there simply aren't a lot made apparently.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 14, 2024 00:32
|
|
|
Long post, but probably my last non-reply post in this thread unless I move. After 6 years (this last year entirely spent waiting for PG&E to get off their rear end and pull new cable from the street - it was technically 54 weeks from when I told them I was prepared to when the cable got pulled), as of this last week my, uh, "panel upgrade" is finally complete. Oldnbusted: 125 amp Federal Pacific main panel, 100 amp FPE garage subpanel, and 60 amp QO backyard panel, aluminum feeder wire New split phase hotness, see what I did there: 200A+200A CSED main panel with 200A main lug aux panel underneath it, 125A replacement garage subpanel plus additional new 100A garage subpanel, QO 60A backyard replacement panel, all copper wiring including feeders All panels QO except Homeline CSED (don't ask, I was ignorant of Schneider's absurd markups at the time and thought their listed MSRP of $7000 for the QO version must be accurate), CAFCI branch breakers everywhere except the dryer (1970s wiring, so no ground whatsoever), 20 or so new outlets plus replacing / rewiring about 10 more, Siemens FirstSurge WH surge suppressors on both 200A branches, and upgrade to 400 amp (320 amp continuous) service. Plus extra "you did what? why?" absurdities like Cadwelding the two 3/4" 10-foot ground rods, Permasleeve heatshrink labels on all wires in panels, and engraved acrylic plates for breaker labeling. Technically the dryer needs GFCI by current code but I was just mentally finished with the project and didn't want to run a new wire, and the inspector didn't care one bit - he commented he hadn't seen many of the CAFCI breakers yet so I suspect my AHJ is still stuck on 2017 code or something. As long as no dumbass appliance installer undoes the bonding jumper on a dryer I should be fine.  (I'm a little annoyed because having to replace the CAFCI breaker I'd put in with a regular breaker on the dryer when I discovered there was no ground meant screwing up the nice right angles on that wiring since the normal breaker is half the length, but sucks to my ocdmar. Also, I may be redoing where the laundry goes anyway in a few years, so at that point I'll run the wire). I want to thank this thread in general for helping me out at various points, whether it was directly responding to my posts or other posts that helped me understand more about how to do electricianing safely and correctly. Special shoutout to Elviscat who responded to one of my earlier posts proudly showing off the main CSED wiring with "the bushing on that nipple needs to be a grounding one" - deflated my ego something fierce and pissed me the gently caress off (because of the 3/0 running through that nipple which I VERY much did not want to pull back out), until I learned of the existence of split-ring bushings. To be clear I am actually thanking you, because it was helpful criticism and made me think even more carefully about what I was doing from then on, and I drat well made sure to use grounding bushings in any other situations that needed them (and BEFORE running wires through them). Fun fact, the inspector said at the rough inspection "you didn't really need that to be a grounding bushing", but know what, I'm happy I have it and it makes more sense to me to rely on that than the lock nut biting through the paint of the panel for grounding that nipple. The inspector also told me during the final inspection this past week "I've been doing this for 10 years and I took photos of your work and sent them to my colleagues, because this is some of the best work I've seen in all that time, including commercial", which was really nice to hear. I mean, yeah, if you are obsessive and take your time working in piecemeal chunks over 5 years it turns out you can do neater work than pro electricians who need to get the job done in a few days and are not being paid to spend time neatening wires and heatshrinking labels onto them. I have no illusions that it's "better" work - it might be a better result but it took me far longer and with much more effort than a pro would expend. But still, nice to get some validation from the AHJ as a non-pro, and hopefully not be a Gary to the next owner. Couple final pictures of the main panel and garage subpanel wired up.   (Don't @ me about the zipties. Also, Elviscat, if you comment on anything wrong I will punch you). (Not really, thanks buddy  )
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2024 23:21
|
|
|
H110Hawk posted:
Hold on, since when do Enphase inverters work without a grid? I thought they all needed to be grid-tied (as in, be receiving 240 from the grid) to actually function which was why they were basically worthless. Or is that just the microinverters and you have an actual inverter?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 13, 2024 06:43
|
|
I just went and killed the breaker to the utility meter in total darkness and the lights stayed on! I went and charged up my laptop, connected to the Envoy wifi, found out my spectrum modem is fried out, and fired up the heater! I was cozy and warm and basically giddy with excitement being isolated from the grid. I didn't leave it like that since I can't actually track the charge yet and don't know how much they have on them so I normalized before I left.
|
Extant Artiodactyl posted:never saw it in action but enphase does have a way to do "sunlight backup" in iq8 systems without batteries to power circuits through a relay that kicks on and off with available power. i think it was limited to 1/10th or 1/6th of the system's continuous current. something like that. Yeah, so still basically useless for my desired use case, which is "gently caress PG&E Imma be my own grid". Whatever, I had ruled out Enphase anyway and committed to dealing with having an extra-spicy high voltage DC run to big inverters.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 14, 2024 01:50
|
|
|
Rocko Bonaparte posted:Hey, thanks for the response, but I got fixated on something here for unrelated reasons: I would say that you should still, in 2024, be prepared for AFCIs to be pretty grouchy. This is just based on my personal experience of switching my house entirely to (edit: COMBINATION GFCI)/AFCIs - 21 SquareD QO (the most recent kind I think PAF? with the green/purple buttons) and another 12 Homeline. The Homelines have been fine, but of the QOs we had two that essentially just had issues and kept nuisance tripping, and we know it was the breakers because we replaced a bunch of other stuff on the circuits before replacing the breakers (with the same type) and the trips went away. The only thing that trips now is our 40 amp oven GFCI when the oven is set above 400 degrees  (may also be when using convection, i.e. fan motor, we haven't tested that yet).Obviously I'm not saying it's still like 2014 when electricians got their hatred of AFCIs because half of them would nuisance trip for no actual reason, and there is also a benefit to having the breaker trip for an actual issue. We had a smart dimmer switch that was broken and letting current through to ground, and the combination GFCI/AFCI tripped, properly, when the old 1970s breaker hadn't done a drat thing. Replaced the switch and all was well. So you should absolutely go to AFCIs, just be aware they're still more prone to having problems than standard breakers. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Apr 24, 2024 |
|
#
¿
Apr 23, 2024 20:24
|
|
|
corgski posted:
Er, yes, but the GFCI part of the combo AFCI/GFCI sure does detect current going to ground. Point is I previously had breakers that were not detecting anything other than overcurrent (and given they were Federal Pacific, they probably weren't detecting that either ), and moving to modern breakers helped expose bad wiring/devices as you mentioned.Of course maybe it would have been good if I'd actually said combo AFCI/GFCI but I just ASSumed everyone knew what I meant because I would be surprised if people bought non combo ones, assuming they make AFCI-only. That said, previous post edited, thanks for making me clarify as terminology precision is pretty critical in electric wiring endeavors. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Apr 24, 2024 |
|
#
¿
Apr 24, 2024 02:09
|
|
|
Motronic posted:FYI, what you're talking about are CAFCI breakers. AFCI breakers do arc fault. GFCI breakers do ground fault. CAFCI breaker do both. Yes. I was under the impression the C was for combination.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 24, 2024 03:20
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 15:11 |
|
|
corgski posted:No, AFCI/CAFCI breakers do not include any GFCI protection whatsoever. AFCIs only trip on parallel arcs (intermittent shorts to netural/ground with arcing,) CAFCIs trip on parallel and series arcs (loose connections inline in a circuit.) Any modern "AFCI" breaker on the market is going to be a CAFCI. kid sinister posted:It is. Decades ago there were two types of AFCI breakers before they were combined into one. Then on top of that, there are dual function breakers, which add the two types of AFCI to GFCI. I sure am! But many thanks to both of you for pointing this out, I had assumed Combination was the same thing as Dual Function so you've dun gosh-darned larned me something today. But it turns out I was correct in thinking that my breakers performed both functions as I installed the Square D PAFGF series - it's just that I should have referred to them as CAFCI / DF breakers, not solely CAFCI. (Slight oddity - I thought GFCI was supposed to trip at 5 mA and these say they trip at 6 mA). I will never get over Schneider's insane MSRP vs street price - I bought these for around $35 each and that page lists them at $326. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Apr 24, 2024 |
|
#
¿
Apr 24, 2024 20:08
|
|