House-buying thread - Why is everyone involved in this process so deeply stupid?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > House-buying thread - Why is everyone involved in this process so deeply stupid?

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

The Nest isn't ugly.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2014 06:53

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 03:59

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Please tell me about buying land/building a house on said land. I have no questions in particular I just want to read experiences.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2021 06:26

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Motronic posted:

If you don't have power, water/well, septic/sewer you're $75,000 away from even thinking about building a house. Possibly more.

If you don't have at least 1/3 of the cost of building a house in cash after you've already bought the land your build is going to take over a year easily.

.....and today you have to add to this the current supply chain mess where it can take a very long time to get everything you need.

I'm in no rush just looking at zillow at this stage discovering that listers don't understand it's 2021 and some people (me it's me) want to know exactly what kind of internet they can get. No not all broadband is the same but hey thanks for that poetic description of the land and drone shots that make it look like there's a view that may or may not exist. I did discover https://broadbandmap.fcc.gov which is nice and actually gives me an idea of where the fiber is.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2021 18:14

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Motronic posted:

So here's the thing: in most parts of this country if there is not already some kind of house on it there's a very good reason.

If you've never built a house before you're in for quite a ride. Doubly so because you've never done it on raw land.

The reason nobody's saying anything about broadband coverage is because it's just the same a getting electric power: $20-50k to extend a primary from the nearest pole(s) and drop a transformer.

You might want to describe the general area and kind of places you're looking for. Because not only do you have these costs, a lot of raw land doesn't' even have access from public roads and relies on an informal or maybe even formal easement that going to make actually cutting in a driveway a big problem.

I deliberately kept it vague as I wanted stories not necessarily advice. What I personally am looking at is kind of just irrelevant but to satisfy curiosity it's areas around Burlington Vermont. Doesn't necessarily even have to be there though but it's where I've been idly looking. They generally do have power at the street, they may or may not have well/septic already.

If you can tell me it has cable or worse a vague "high speed" you can tell me speeds. I'm not even asking for costs to bring it in, I'm asking for what is available.

IOwnCalculus posted:

That map is not nearly as accurate as it should be. It says my new house has gigabit available from both Cox and CenturyLink.

Cox doesn't service it at all and the fastest CL will sell me is 140/20 bonded DSL. But I knew that before I put in the offer because I went to both of them directly and just asked them.

CenturyLink's network here is so much less congested than Cox at my old house that it almost always outperforms the 300/30 I had there.

This does not surprise me but I feel like it's better then nothing.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2021 19:46

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Alarbus posted:

lmao, good loving luck. If you're in actual Burlinton, you might get Burlington Telecom or whatever it is, otherwise in that area you get Comcast that may or may not still be somewhat built on the old Adelphia system. Outside of Chittenden county you may as well just get cans and a string.

Here's a blog from a goon who built outside of Stowe or something. http://www.vtwoods.life/

If you're not already in the Burlington area, you're in for a shock. Think of all the advice Motronic is going to give you about permits, contractors, and costs, and just make it worse. Also, enjoy high taxes.

If you're already in the Burlington area, I guess sunk cost fallacy? I grew up near there, and let me tell you, moving to southeast PA has been fantastic. There's job, services, costs are better balanced, there's housing that isn't as loving stupidly priced, there's property taxes that aren't as stupidly set.

That link is fantastic (I assume I haven't read it all), stories are what I want, not necessarily Vermont. As far as the rest, I live in New England. My parents have a vacation house on Stratton (skigod.us I don't think it's technically in Stratton but whatever)I myself no longer ski though. I don't think I'd be shocked by anything Burlington related. I mean its a factory for coats they should have some jobs right? If it's cold? They have coats.

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Sep 11, 2021

# ¿ Sep 11, 2021 20:56

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Motronic posted:

Those maps can not. In fact, most of the local suppliers may have trouble telling you that unless you can place an order.

Things can be crazy enough that simply being on the wrong side of the street can cause to to not be able to get service or need to pay them $5,000 to install a pole for you. Or pay someone else less than that if they will run it to your own pole.

This isn't a rural/raw land issue even. Those maps will say you have <x> high speed coverage in area with FIOS and it turns out you don't because you live in a condo/apartment building where they'd have to dig up the neighborhood to get it to you.

Yes I know. What I want is people selling/listing the house to do the work instead of me (and anyone else interested) having to check every single place myself.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2021 21:20

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Tyro posted:

Yeah whenever we sell our place I definitely plan to have printouts of a speed test showing our gigabit connection on hand, since we are bordering on rural. I'd offer a guest network login but our wifi speeds are slow as gently caress compared to our wired, since I'm too lazy to upgrade my existing hardware and the speed is good enough for me...

Step by step slowly modernizing the world. Then again these listings for property/houses don't even show the land boundaries most of the time so maybe they should start with that and work their way up to internet speeds.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2021 23:27

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Alarbus posted:

Burlington coat factory is Massachusetts, not Vermont. There's fuckall for choice of services in Burlington Vermont.

Dean drove IBM out of Vermont, husky and Energizer were long gone. Your options are education and healthcare, and there's no competition so salaries suck. Goon speed, enjoy the well.

Wait you're saying there's more than one Burlington? gently caress next you'll be telling me there's more than one Washington or something. Impossible.

My options are I'm either a multi millionaire or I make my living online and the job market is irrelevant. Like who would look somewhere if they didn't have a plan for making a living? Plenty probably I'm like super duper smart so I already did. Sell cheap furniture discarded by college students. See? Easy. If worse comes to worse I can rob them at gun point. "Well officer it was a white guy wearing flannel".

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Sep 12, 2021

# ¿ Sep 12, 2021 01:19

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Alarbus posted:

Look. I grew up there. It was a nice place to grow up a lifetime ago, but there's no compelling reason to just move there, let alone build some place there from scratch. Either do or don't, but don't get pissy when people tell you it's objectively a bad idea.

I just wanted people building house stories. That's all. The a reason I didn't want to give details because I suspected it would distract from what I wanted (I'm so smart). I'm sorry (not really) I value different things when picking a place to live. That doesn't make what your value wrong, it just means it's not an "objectively bad idea" as you seem to think.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2021 02:26

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Motronic posted:

This is not a thread for theoretical stories. Because the details actually matter when you're talking about housing.

If you want to daydream go watch some HGTV show that I'm sure will satiate the dream of this being an easy feel-good story. Because in reality is messy and hyper local and specific.

The whole reason you were asked where is the combination of the location mattering and the red-flaggy way you didn't seem to understand that is does, or even specify what type(s) of land you're looking for.

Duck and Cover posted:

Please tell me about buying land/building a house on said land. I have no questions in particular I just want to read experiences.

No matter how much you condescend it doesn't change the fact that what I requested is not what you've provided.

"Hi I'd like some stories about keeping bees"
"Where? What kind of bees?"
"It doesn't matter I just want to hear about experiences keeping bees"
"Of course it matters how could it not matter this is bee keeping the details matter"
"For fucks sake I just want stories on bees"
"Oh you just want feel good stories"
"I never said that"

I'm sure I was more hostile but you get the point. While I'm sure your a wealth of helpful advice, that is not what was asked of you so don't get mad when someone isn't grateful for it.

I want the good, bad, and neutral I can decide what's useful to me and my situation. I figure whatever the person wants to post is fine and will probably end up focusing on what they thought to be noteworthy. http://www.vtwoods.life Is great, exactly what I want more then what I expect in this thread. It being about a build in Vermont doesn't really matter.

Now this possibly warranted it's own thread but I didn't feel like making it at the time and thought it fit good enough here so thus the post here. Maybe I'll do that.

CongoJack posted:

My sister is building a house in Idaho, I will let you know how it goes. Just give me like a few years and it should be done.

An optimist I see!

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Sep 14, 2021 01:07

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

he1ixx posted:

Hey I just saw this. I took a break from SA for a while but I thought I'd write up a status update and I saw this so here's some info.

Building a house is definitely one of the most stressful things I've ever done and probably much worse during a pandemic. You wrote a TON of good stuff above and I think I'd agree with almost all of it.

Regarding #1, I can list pricing but I'd probably need to be somewhat indirect because I don't know what kind of issues actual prices would open me up to. Our general contractor has been great. He is a unique person in that he prefers fixed bid house builds because it gives him control and predictability and he finds that must home owners prefer that control and predictability as well. He's right about that in our case.

The architect said we'd be able to build this house for $750k. After showing the builder the plans (during the phase where we were interviewing builders), he said there was no way to build it for less than $1m. That isn't including land. Or contingencies. We went to work with the builder and the architect for about four months doing some "value engineering" and finding ways to get the builders price tag down to a price we could live with. We got the price down to about $970k and decided to go for it. It was far more than we wanted to spend but more in line with what we expected based on earlier research. I should mention that this price was a fixed bid price so there was a contract involved and only a few buckets for "allowances" that could grow which limited that whole "keep 30% set aside for contingencies" maxim somewhat less of a worry.

As we went through the process, the costs went up for two reasons. One is that we changed our minds for a few things which required change orders. As far as change orders go, we really didn't do very many. We are up to change order #11. Some are very minor like $250 for a new screen door design or something. Some are expensive like $12k for more topsoil or things that weren't considered until after we saw the house "working" (like drip edges and an extra patio). The change orders brought the price total up to $1.01m total although it might be lower than that because that total is including allowances and some of them weren't hit. That doesn't include the land which was $240k.

We are very lucky in that we do have the means to do this. We will end up with a much smaller bank account that we are OK with but we'll save like crazy to build it back up. The end result (a net-zero house using passivehaus design principles) is pretty close to what we expected with only a week or two left on the build and very few expenses left to pay for. We built the house with liquid cash so there was no financing or banks to mess with. It is fair to say that this project took more project management on my part than I ever did for work and that was just the money juggling and timelines. I still have an eye twitch.

The timeline -- ugh. We were supposed to move in May 2021. The pandemic immediately hosed that date because our team was forced to stop work for a month. When we signed the contract with the builder and started doing the timing for things, the date was moved to July and shortly after that to August 15. I was working under the assumption that August 15 was the real date until it was very clear that wasn't happening but, moving in October 1 isn't such a huge slip compared to many of the other horror stories I've heard recently.

The pandemic shutting down builders was obviously bad but the follow on effects of finding and buying lumber was awful, things like buying siding, metal roofing, solar panels and windows were almost impossible for a while. This added delays because windows that were expected to be delivered in 1 month took 4 months. We had parts for the windows held up due to the loving container ship stuck in the Panama Canal too. We ended up having to ship them again so we could continue working.

We also ran into a massive worker shortage here in Vermont. The biggest delay in finishing the house was the drywall. They could only spare one guy for us. He wasn't fast or great. He took 5 weeks when we were expecting him to take 2 which forced us to push out other subs like painters and electricians and plumbers who then had to juggle our place in line. Things like the counters usually take 1-2 weeks but we were in the queue and they had a 6 week delivery commitment. I think builders and general contractors are now adjusting to this new normal but its a mess out there. We are lucky we started building when we did because delays are much longer now.

Here's a good example -- in August we got a water test. The water came back as "very hard" so we wanted to get on their schedule to install a water softener. The soonest they could fit us in was October 20. I called other places and their times were much farther out. They called me the other day and said there was a change and now we are scheduled for November 29th. This is poo poo you get when you are building a house or just dealing with subcontractors in general. I don't know that there's any way to avoid it but you need to adjust for it as much as you can.

They fixed the doors last week. They all shut perfectly now.

As it is, we are moving in next Friday. Some things might not be done (water softener for sure. maybe some lights which are still shipping (since May!)). We will have almost no furniture because the sofas we ordered all pushed back from end of August to October and November.

Bottom line is that I agree with your thoughts on the housing market. Tradesmen are hard to find and, when you do, the good ones are booked out for months. Supply lines are hosed. Dates mean almost nothing. It's a rough time to build a house.

Your blog is great however I couldn't figure out how to get your blog in chronological order which may be worth adding (or making clearer if it's already a thing). Also the archive appears to be down.

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Sep 26, 2021

# ¿ Sep 25, 2021 17:57

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Doctor Party posted:

One thing I've noticed about this thread but also on SA in general...there's often a group think that happens that can stifle more coherent discussion.

Like someone a few pages back asking about home buying outside the USA and getting ten replies screaming we can't help you, followed by one very helpful uhh OK there are some general principles to consider regardless of market post.

Another example I find is the person asking a question and getting a generic response when they need a specific one. Like the guy who's buying in a market that isn't so hot and asks for and gets an inspection, credits etc. Like I am outside Chicago in a desirable area and no house we looked at had any sort of inspection waiving non sense going on. We asked for and received a small amount of credits for things from inspection. But every response is as if every individual market is like the worst market. I don't have experience outside my own but my experience was not similar to others I guess?

Then there is the conventional wisdom of needing to buy asap espoused by every boomer parent of ours wondering how dumb we could all be to be renting. This thread rightfully argues against this conventional wisdom. But I will definitely say i got the sense that it was a little too vociferous in its anti buying anti conventional wisdom mantra. Some of it might just be tongue and cheek never buy comments when someone is screwed by their lender or realtor or whatever. But I immediately felt an anti buy bias and read the rest of the thread through that lens.

I posted a relatively silly initial post and got reamed by motronic in a very unhelpful and rude way. I have found his posts in general to be helpful. But yeah some of it is just let me dump on this guy. That being said I am not any super savy financial or home buying guru. I am just a first time home buyer who on the whole has appreciated the advice from this thread taken with some eye rolls and grains of salt.

Every once in awhile a new person comes in the same :smug:

posters berate/talk down them while maybe providing helpful info but it's more to stroke their own ego than to actually help the person. It shouldn't just be about telling people factual information, it's should be about trying to communicate relevant information without coming off as :smug:

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Jun 12, 2022

# ¿ Jun 12, 2022 06:18

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Hadlock posted:

I have been wildly unimpressed with east coast infrastructure since I got here

Yeah but free salt they just put that stuff on roads for anyone to have!

# ¿ Jun 16, 2022 05:55

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Hadlock posted:

You do realize that most states get, at most 1-2 days a year where there's any snow at all on the ground, right

I'll never understand this Stockholm syndrome addiction to living in a frozen hellscape for half the year

In Dallas about once every three years we get our fabled "ice storm" shuts down the city for 1-2 days as all the plants and roads are covered in half an inch of ice, but then it's right back to being 40F and it all melts off by noon. People just stay home those days, and the storm is forecast 7-10 days in advance so it's not really a surprise to anyone

People put different weight into the various pros and cons of places and tend to just get use to whatever issues a place may have. Cold? Wear a jacket. Wildfires? Get an air filter. Snow on the roads? Snow tires/all wheel drive. Drought? Dig a deeper well! Conservatives and their awful laws? Go "it's not that bad". High taxes? Complain about them.

# ¿ Jun 16, 2022 19:26

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Ornery and Hornery posted:

Off-topic, but I found this neat interactive map about noise. Might be helpful in your search

https://maps.dot.gov/BTS/NationalTransportationNoiseMap/

There's an airport. There's another one. This map is really good for finding where the airports are.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2022 01:23

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

There's options between car, and walking. Bike, ebike, electric skateboard, electric unicycle thing, etc. which might be worth considering.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2022 20:22

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Thom Yorke raps posted:

100 year old houses rule, they've stood the test of time. Much prefer them over 10 year old houses that were built cheap and fast and won't last 30 years.

My house is 130 years old and the plaster walls muffle sound great, it's all stone and brick on the exterior, and it's got a bunch of original wood details that you can't find anymore. Though, I am paying a bunch to get the knob and tube wiring replaced

Plaster can eat wifi singles (well the metal used). Insulation can be spotty. Old windows suck. Lead paint/abestos.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2023 18:29

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Ornery and Hornery posted:

My retirement plan is a single bullet lol our generation is in trouble

It won't be enough you neglected inflation.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2023 07:04

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

You can shoot the meat with the gun. Load pepper bullets

https://mannkitchen.com/products/the-original-pepper-cannon-pepper-mill

# ¿ Aug 23, 2023 19:33

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Hadlock posted:

Some people buy 10 acres build a house on it and then live isolated from society for the next 40 years and die alone separated from everyone

Sounds like a plan, needs to have access to good internet though.

# ¿ Dec 25, 2023 00:21

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Baddog posted:

Starlink is pretty cool, too bad Elon went full dumbass.

I said good internet, and I wouldn't want to be rural enough for that to be the best option.

edit: Also yeah gently caress Elon like I probably would go with Starlink if that was my fastest option but I certainly would not move somewhere where I'd have to make that choice.

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Dec 25, 2023

# ¿ Dec 25, 2023 03:38

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Deviant posted:

i have an optional hoa in my area

the only words i have said to their representative are 'no thank you' and 'please leave now.'

never hoa.

So what you're saying is you failed to unhinge your jaw and eat the representative whole?

# ¿ Dec 28, 2023 03:51

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

It should be exactly 72 at all times.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2024 23:44

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Children will make plenty of friends working the mines.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2024 19:05

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Sundae posted:

Just don't stop moving and the stress becomes your new baseline!

E: I just pulled up notepad and counted out the moves. I have moved 26 times in 41 years if I include each college relocation, 20 if I don't.

Yeah well I've never moved (maybe when I was like a baby or really young I'm not actually sure). I WIN! Wait does that make me a loser? Well gently caress you for thinking that I'm breaking societal norms! I'm a trendsetter not a loser.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2024 06:49

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Jenkl posted:

How would you compare potential Realtors if you were selling your home?

Ive got two recommendations from friends not sure how to whittle it down.

Combat.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2024 08:00

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Anne Whateley posted:

If you get the kind with silicone nipples, you just have to give it a little wiggle rarely instead of messing around with toothpicks

Did you mean to post this in the Amusing Sex Toy thread in GBS? Easy mistake to make.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2024 07:47

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

I appreciate this thread it allows me to continue to go "eh buying a house is too much work better do nothing". You can't overpay for something if you never pay for something.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2024 04:49

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Leperflesh posted:

call it a "freedom drain"

*runs out to buy 5 for the house he does not own* USA USA USA.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2024 19:28

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Eric the Mauve posted:

And if it's the developer or the contractor, open a brand new business a week later that you know is completely different because it has a completely different name.

Realistically though it's probably going to end up in the lap of the party with the least money, which is the landowner in this case. She'll end up with a negotiated agreement by which she receives a lovely piece of land no one wants 40 miles away and the other parties agree to pay her legal bills.

I hope so I hate to see capital be punished for their mistakes. Actually what am I saying the landowner is to blame maybe she should have paid attention to her land! Land should only be able to be owned by corporations.

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Mar 29, 2024

# ¿ Mar 29, 2024 19:31

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

George H.W. oval office posted:

Living\Family room were always interchangeable to us. It's where the TV and people existed. "Formal" living room was the no touch chairs that grandma's house had. The den was more or less an office and extra room.

Pretty much. Den also can be "man cave".

# ¿ Apr 5, 2024 18:22

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Cyrano4747 posted:

My problem with fireplaces is mostly people orienting their living room around something that rarely gets used and then cramming the TV - which is frequently used - over the mantle and making it a pain in the rear end to watch. Mostly because of my in-laws, who have this gargantuan gas fireplace that I have never, ever seen them use. It dates from the 90s and it's just what you had to have in a respectable living room I guess. As a result their TV is perched over a mantle that has to be 4 feet off the ground (it's about chest -height on me and I'm just shy of six feet) and everyone has to crane their neck up to watch it. And it's always on, because boomers.

If it's older construction (say, pre-70s) whatever, but mostly I'm annoyed by new construction that tries to pretend that - however you may feel about this as a component of our culture - the TV isn't the entertainment focus point of a modern living room. Want to stick a fireplace on the side of the room as a decoration? Cool, enjoy. But when I walk in to look at a place and see the dominant wall that you're going to have to organize furniture around with one in the middle of it, gently caress I'm out. It just really, really bugs me.

Like this:

Ugh.

Really looking forward to sitting on the couch to watch a movie with my wife and craning my neck up 30-45 degrees like I'm sitting in a bar trying to catch the game over the bartender's head.

edit: or this. Blech.

Much better:

Basically I don't like room layouts that try to pretend like the room isn't used how it really is and instead insist on a fantasy version for aesthetic purposes. Form over function sucks in a living space.

It's minimalist I say as I hide everything into cabinets. Look how nice my empty kitchen is!

# ¿ Apr 7, 2024 17:20

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Who would like some artifical intelligent concept? I bet you would. I'm too lazy to strip out the images, rehost and post them at the moment but I also don't want to not post this. https://www.redfin.com/VT/Waitsfield/North-Rd-05673/home/185289039

I do think Vermont could use a castle. I also found the effort of this listing to be much higher than most even ignoring the dumb AI concepts. Showing the boundaries (well not legally exactly but close enough)? Showing the road?! Incredible.

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Apr 14, 2024

# ¿ Apr 14, 2024 19:17

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Motronic posted:

"Partially Finished Driveway" and "Expensive and Likely Unpermittable Reason Driveway is only Partially Finished and there is no house here"

Possibly but you could get a castle! A CASTLE or maybe a log cabin, imagine! I'm liking the use of papyrus.

quote:

Current owners have installed a partially completed Mike Marino crafted driveway that, if completed, would cross the stream and some wetlands back to a cleared house site.

Mike Marino? OH my GOD thee Mike Marino? Wait what's this about wetlands?

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Apr 14, 2024

# ¿ Apr 14, 2024 21:32

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Trying to solve this problem on the demand side is ineffective at best.

If population less than housing stock than problem solved.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 20:50

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 03:59

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Lol cars go in garages they live there.

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 02:47

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > House-buying thread - Why is everyone involved in this process so deeply stupid?