Roguelikes: I never met@progression I didn't like

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C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Hey I remember that Transcendence game in the OP! I played a lot of that a few years ago but now FTL scratches a lot of that itch (though Transcendence is real-time action as opposed to the RTS-like combat of FTL)

# ¿ Aug 6, 2013 20:10

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 22:36

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Mylan posted:

Yeah, enjoyed that game years ago. Is Transcendence still in development? I checked out the web site and the download linked version appears to be way out of date with the latest version they mention in the forum.

I think it's in "development" the same way almost all these roguelikes are- complete enough to play and enjoy but getting new stuff from the creator(s) at a very slow pace.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2013 17:23

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

victrix posted:

Good thread, great OP.

I'd suggest adding a post filled with generic survival advice that applies to roguelikes in general - permadeath can be a hard concept to swallow without something like Rogue Legacy's system in place.

Some quick examples:

You are always one step away from death.

Running away is almost always an option. Often it is the right option.

These are not jrpgs. These aren't even wrpgs. Don't conserve your drat items for a theoretical tough fight in the future or you won't survive the tough fight in the present. Use your scrolls, your potions, your wands. Use them.

This isn't a race. Stop and think. Examine your inventory. Examine the terrain. If a situation looks like it could be dangerous, it is dangerous. Take as much time as you need to puzzle through any encounter.

Take a break. Completing the harder roguelikes requires focused attention for a long period of time. Don't lose a promising character to fatigue!

In most (though not all) roguelikes, melee combat is a Bad Idea, especially early in the game. Use bows, thrown weapons, magic, traps, or whatever other dastardly options you have at your disposal before you play the @@ humping simulation game.

If you run into a difficult situation or you're unsure how to proceed, ask for help online. Roguelikes are excellent collaborative games, and if you've ever played Demon's/Dark Souls, you should know the value of good advice. Spoilers are nice, but specific advice for your specific situation can help you learn more than a generic info dump.

The journey, not the destination. In most tough roguelikes, you're going to die. A lot. This can be really painful the first few times if you're used to the autosaving, quickloading, 50 save file school of rpg gameplay. Shift your thinking. Try to learn something new each game, and try something new each game (the latter will get you killed, apologies in advance). It's best to think that you are improving your own personal experience, not that of your character! Very good players have very high win rates on even tough roguelikes, and this is not because of random chance.

When you die, figure out why you died. It's usually your fault. It's probably your fault. It's your fault. Learn from your deaths.

You might feel like you were screwed the RNG, but its much more likely that your actions lead to a situation that killed you, even if your moment to moment tactical choices were sound. Mid and long term strategy is often just as important as tactics.

The correct or optimal playstyle for any given roguelike can vary significantly. Experiment with different games! I find some roguelikes to be boring, frustrating, or both, simply because very effective tactics in them run counter to how I personally enjoy playing. By the same token, experiment with different characters and builds - good roguelikes allow a variety of successful approaches.

Burn a character occasionally testing out a radically different play style. Dive deeply, quickly. Drink everything, zap everything, read everything. Run away from everything. Taken to extremes, reckless play is usually a swift trip to the grave, but playing in an atypical manner can teach you some very useful tricks you might not have learned otherwise. Conservative play is typically the safest path to victory, but not always.

You are always one step away from death.

edit: I forgot 'Roguelikes is the worst genre name in history', but I guess that's not a tip :<

I'd put "play the odds and/or always take the sure thing" to that too. I've died quite a few times in these games when I've taken a route that should work instead of a route that always works (i.e. trying to clear one more easy room before going to a merchant for healing, and somehow dying there)

# ¿ Aug 9, 2013 03:23

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

tentacles posted:

That aside, this game is great and just keeps getting better.

Does it? I got to Floor 3 once as the Warrior and haven't gotten back there since, though I've only tried it a half-dozen times.

How do you know when it's appropriate to search a given wall? That mechanic seems really tedious.

# ¿ Aug 19, 2013 21:41

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

precision posted:

Dungeon floors are always square and are more or less mostly filled out. You get very quickly used to knowing where secret doors "should" be. Searching also has a 100% chance of succeeding (and you also have a passive chance to notice if you just walk by, I think Rogues may have a higher chance than others). It's not tedious at all once you get used to it.

Is there a map function or any way to see how a floor is laid out as you explore it?

# ¿ Aug 19, 2013 22:15

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

precision posted:

Just drag and scroll around, or pinch and zoom out?

I had no idea that was possible, this game just got ten times better. Thank you!

# ¿ Aug 19, 2013 22:38

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Finally fired up Dungeonmans probably two years after I first purchased it. Played about an hour or so and it's fun, though I feel like I goofed by not picking a ranged character or taking a ranged skill immediately. Took on the first Scrobold boss and used a bunch of consumables, only to run away when it was clear that I wasn't strong enough to kill him :negative:

Didn't there used to be a thread for that game, or is it old enough that no one cares anymore?

# ¿ Sep 17, 2018 05:47

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Tollymain posted:

im sure people still play it but it cant really support its own thread anymore

having ranged capacity is nice but if you have movement abilities not necessarily vital. get another level and some more consumables, go kick that scrubolds rear end i believe in ya :v

Thanks, most of my ranged woes are from dealing with ranged enemies who move a lot and just chip away at me as I run them down. Also I need to figure out where to buy more healing potions since I smoked them all trying and failing to clear that boss, that first town only had one for sale and I'm guessing that I can't buy potions at the academy until I beat that boss and get back whatever artifact is there.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2018 14:19

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Shout-out to everyone who recommended picking up a ranged skill early on in Dungeonmans, I fired it up again and received a skillbook for the basic Archery skills and now I'm rolling. Can't wait to see what stupid thing kills me!

Did I read correctly that maxxing out your first skill tree with a given character let you auto-unlock that skill tree for future characters?

# ¿ Oct 8, 2018 03:59

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Ignatius M. Meen posted:

If I remember correctly you have to take said given character far enough that they can retire and become a teacher at the Academy. After that, yeah they can train all future characters in it to max for free.

Ah OK, any guidance as to what "far enough" entails? I'm guessing it's a certain character level?

# ¿ Oct 8, 2018 04:17

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

ToxicFrog posted:

Prospector? Privateer was the disappointing Elite-inspired Wing Commander spinoff.

Also, Caves of Qud isn't an "edge case" and deserves to be in that list.

Your main point is right, though, there aren't nearly enough. There's Gearhead 1/2, I guess. If you include roguelites that lets you bring in Transcendence and Everspace.

I remember playing Transcendence a decade ago and liking it, is it still any good? I know there's a paid version on Steam now.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2018 16:30

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Lost my first Dungeonmans guy at level 6 to a monster party :negative:

Rolled a Wizard which seemed strong though I don't know how much of that is the starting bonuses and how much of that is the class.

I assume that if I can get back to where my dude died I can maybe get something good out of it?

E: Also I keep seeing Headless Headsman enemies and they all drop Trick or Treat baskets :spooky:

C-Euro fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Oct 14, 2018

# ¿ Oct 14, 2018 22:31

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Lost character #2 in Dungeonmans (a Wizardmans) due either to a Lizardmans who could do melee damage from two tiles away or my own inability to read the perspective in the game

I rolled a Dungeonmans for my next character but the default Wizardmans class felt really strong, I kind of wish I had just re-rolled a magic user instead. What's the pro magic build for this game?

# ¿ Oct 18, 2018 05:41

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Jazerus posted:

necromancy all day long

dungeonmans is just "put your starting points wherever you want", you can build any of the other classes from a dungeonmans

Yami Fenrir posted:

Necromancy and ranger together is basically cheating, hth.

I played around with Necromancy a bit on my first run but I spent a lot of time maxxed out on Deadpulses and nothing to use them on. I'll have to try it out again.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2018 12:25

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

The basics of doing well in Dungeonmans involve not getting hit. That's why Rangermans is good (free ranged attack + escape abilities), why Necromanser is good (ready access to a tank that isn't you), why Light Armor is good (it gives a big ol' pile of temporary HP), and why the decoy spell is ridiculously good. The decoy spell also is a prerequisite for the bamf spell, which IIRC is the best escape ability in the game.

I hadn't really played around with the decoy ability until I got to the floor where I died. When I realized I was in trouble I definitely laid one down but half the enemies still went for me, natch.

Jazerus posted:

the regular mostly summoning spell isn't great, although mostlies are pretty decent - go straight for hateglacier. the second spell, which lets you turn an enemy into a bomb that also creates a mostly, is also extremely good - use it on trash enemies that are standing next to strong enemies.

Is that the first ability in the third Necro line? That one seems to poison enemies and turn them into Mostlies if they die while infected, I had it on my first character and it seemed...OK I guess?

# ¿ Oct 18, 2018 21:44

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

In my quest to play every game in my Steam library I put a couple of hours into Ziggurat today, which is fun even though I'm not really a PC shooter guy. Have managed to get a little further in each run compared to the prior run other than one go-around with some really terrible luck, which I guess is the ideal roguelike experience. Anyone else here put much time into this game?

# ¿ Apr 12, 2020 05:11

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Fired up Dungeonmans for the first time in a while, cruising with a level 9 character with a lot of marksman skills. A couple of base building questions-

1. Once I upgrade the library to what the game tells me is its max level, is there any point in continuing to donate skill books to it? I've donated 12 books so far.

2. Does there ever come a point where I should sell unwanted loot for cash, or should I just keep shoveling everything I'm not using into more blacksmith resources?

C-Euro fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Apr 28, 2020

# ¿ Apr 28, 2020 06:15

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Thanks, it's a bit confusing that you can still donate books to them for no(?) benefit. Then again I keep finding skill books for skills I'm not using or in which I'm already maxed out, so what else am I gonna do with them?

E: Got to the top of my first Warlord tower and had to use an Escape scroll after getting the boss down to half health

Feels bad mans, that guy wasn't messing around.

C-Euro fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Apr 28, 2020

# ¿ Apr 28, 2020 17:09

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Finally killed my first Tower Warlord in Dungeonmans. Fuuuuuuuuck those guys.

# ¿ May 1, 2020 00:12

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

They're great! ...assuming you can handle them of course. And assuming they're the right class. Warlord weapons are the best reliably-available weapons in the game, but if you're a mage and the warlord you fought was a bannermans, that's not super helpful.

The best is when you face an archer warlord when you have both Arrow Time (passive that lets you send projectiles back where they came from) and the banner that puts starlight burns on enemies. Archer warlords bounce all over the place while shooting you, and are normally a tremendous pain to fight...but with Arrow Time they pretty much can't touch you and instead every attack they make lands back on them with added starlight damage. They basically shoot themselves to bits while you stand there and Matrix dodge everything.

They can be something besides Bannermans? All the ones I've seen so far have been Bannermans. Love to have my Stamina and Mana constantly drained by enemy banners, and to have the enemy get reinforcements that keep healing them.

# ¿ May 1, 2020 02:42

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Yeah, there's...uh, there's Bannermans, Rangermans, Wizardmans, and I forget what the melee one is called, probably Fightermans. I think those are the only warlord types. Bannermans is certainly the most annoying to deal with. I guess my Dungeonmans Protip would be to always take the banner skills yourself; they're strong, and they work well with every class (and have no equipment requirement). One of them gives you stamina/mana recovery when you damage enemies and basically lets you use your skills nonstop (well, still subject to Strain).

Oh, my other protip is use your frickin' consumables if you weren't already. Life gets a lot easier if you're tanked up on battle/armor potions and resist scrolls. Hopefully by the time you're dealing with warlords you have a Scroll of Defy Damage or two; your first warlord is definitely a worthy time to use one of those (otherwise save them for Ancient Kings). They don't last long though, so they're best used to let you set up the other, longer-lasting buffs, and to heal if necessary.

Oh yeah I took the skills for the melee and ranged banners early but haven't gone past the first skill in either line. And yeah lots of potion and scroll use in that fight, which is great until a Trickster Mage steals all of your buffs :argh:

I'm 15 hours deep with this character that I rage-created when I lost my last character unexpectedly, game is great! If only the "auto-run to nearest up/down stairs" function worked...

# ¿ May 1, 2020 05:14

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

lol the "Trivial" ratings on these Ancient Castles are some false loving advertising if I've ever seen it.

# ¿ May 1, 2020 22:45

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Just got the "40 skill points on one character" achievement in Dungeonmans but almost none of said skills contribute towards unlocking any of the secret mastery trees :sad:

I'm about to hit level 14 with this guy and I keep waiting for him to die, but I've managed to get out of all of my close calls so far.

C-Euro fucked around with this message at 05:23 on May 7, 2020

# ¿ May 7, 2020 04:51

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

The best is when you face an archer warlord when you have both Arrow Time (passive that lets you send projectiles back where they came from) and the banner that puts starlight burns on enemies. Archer warlords bounce all over the place while shooting you, and are normally a tremendous pain to fight...but with Arrow Time they pretty much can't touch you and instead every attack they make lands back on them with added starlight damage. They basically shoot themselves to bits while you stand there and Matrix dodge everything.

Thanks for the tip, I encountered a ranger warlord and had the Arrow Time ability from the Medium Armor tree, I think I got hit once the entire fight. Got an amazing bow for my trouble as well.

# ¿ May 8, 2020 22:56

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

lol I used a Challenge scroll on a pack of zombies in Dungeonmans, I should have known something sassy would happen after the tooltip suggested that I do it. What do I do with their unique drop?

# ¿ May 14, 2020 23:51

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

+1 for Dungeonmans, which I've been playing a ton of lately. The fact that progress is somewhat cumulative across characters made in a given world is really good for teaching people new to genre that it's OK to die sometimes. I assume it's not the only roguelike with a progression system like this but it's very clear that you're supposed to build up your academy across many characters. Or in my case, across the third character you made as a throwaway because you were mad about how your second character died, and now he just. Won't. Die.

# ¿ May 15, 2020 15:50

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Buller posted:

Seems like its many times easier being ranged than melee in dungeonmans. Some of the design concepts such as chasing enemies i dont understand.

I'm playing a Ranger/Two-Hand Fighter hybrid and mowing down enemies at this point. One thing I'll say is that, unless you're really gung-ho about a certain skill tree, try to avoid maxing it out with level-ups. Skill books for certain skill trees, such as the Adventuring 101 and magic skill trees, are way more common than others like the Necromans and Bannermans skill trees. But you probably won't want to worry about mix-maxxing your first few characters.

Also a point in whatever skill makes it easier to find secrets in dungeons is totally worth it, at least if you can find a skill book for it.

# ¿ May 16, 2020 03:24

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

When I beat the final dungeon in Dungeonmans, am I still able to muck around with that same character and world?

# ¿ May 23, 2020 21:35

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Word, I'm level 15 and sleepwalking through everything at this point so I might just shoot my shot now. Of course, "I'm sleepwalking through this" is what everyone says right before they die...

# ¿ May 23, 2020 22:36

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Speaking of metaprogression, in Dungeonmans what is the upgrade hammer between Burnt and Charred? I somehow haven't unlocked it in 45 hours of playing and I just want to complete that list.

# ¿ May 25, 2020 22:39

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Just lost a max level character in Dungeonmans to the final attack of the final boss, and now I hate everything. Might need to take a break from this one for a little bit.

E: On the bright side I had 317 points to spend on stats for me new character, and over a hundred Mysterious Artifacts, 95% of which I sold off to start my new character's funds. Here's hoping I don't spend another 40 hours getting back to where I was...

C-Euro fucked around with this message at 05:57 on May 28, 2020

# ¿ May 28, 2020 04:30

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Yami Fenrir posted:

This EXACT thing happened to me, too. Boss had like, 5% left at most.

I accidentally ran out of the cover area from the attack that otherwise hits the whole screen.

Honestly that makes me feel a little better now lol, so thank you. I thought the taunts about the world-ending attack were a sign that I had almost killed the boss so I thought "I better just finish him off, I think I can hurt him quickly enough to do it". Guess I'll look for that safe zone next time!

# ¿ May 28, 2020 13:58

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Yami Fenrir posted:

Do you want a hint?

I mean the boss says "I'm tearing apart reality, except for that one square over there which you should just ignore" so I assume there was a square off in the corner somewhere that was safe. Truth be told I started to look for it, then decided to take my shot and try to kill him, and had I stuck with running away I might have lived.

I know there was that portal to go back to the Overworld right next to the boss, but I thought it despawned when he began the charge-up for that attack. Did it actually stick around?

# ¿ May 28, 2020 20:54

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Yami Fenrir posted:

Dungeonmans final boss spoiler below.
The portal IS the safe spot. It's not a portal, but a shield. I was actually thinking of a different attack - the one you avoid by having enemies frozen by the boss and then using them as cover.

Oh motherfucker, I was right there. At least I (hopefully) won't gently caress up next time. I did at least figure out ducking behind cover for that other attack, I'm guessing that probably hurts a lot too.

Rolled a Bannermans for my new guy because I wanted to try out the polearm skills and because I knew the ghost of my previous character would teach me one of the Banner skill trees. I'm rolling thus far but man I miss all of the ranged and movement abilities for the archery and medium armor trees...

# ¿ May 29, 2020 05:45

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

ExiledTinkerer posted:

Dungeonmans achieves v1.9 Weapons of Renown in a meaty update wrought of Finery & Intrigue:

https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/288120/view/2505639402159733989

Oh yeah I need to go back to my current Dungeonmans character. I'm still a little salty about losing the last one...

# ¿ Jul 1, 2020 20:38

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Started Tangledeep a couple of days ago and it's pretty cool, just beat the first area boss with my first character (Brigand). The color palette and sound design remind me of Kirby Superstar on the SNES, which is a kind of random pull but that game rules so I'm not complaining.

At this point I have all of the Brigand skills, is it worth it to keep rolling with this and save up JP for its Job Trial and relevant Weapon Masteries, or should I start branching out to other classes? I got a Legendary Bow from the Lunar New Year event so I figure it might be good to dip into Hunter, especially with the positioning skills that Brigand has.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2022 06:22

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 22:36

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

beer gas canister posted:

pets are extremely strong in Tangledeep. they might get smoked at low levels, but they retain their level after being sent back to town, eventually becoming ridiculously powerful. i suggest capturing a Fungal Toad, because they have both health regen and a charge ability. then breed it with another powerful enemy, on for a couple of generations. Sandjaws are a good choice, because they have Leap, and that combined with Frog Hop enables them to be highly mobile. i build all of my characters around the presence of pets now

Yeah I took the starter toad pet with me towards the end of the first level and it got killed by the first enemy we saw lol. Going to give it another go once its death cooldown is over.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2022 05:58

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