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Blind Pineapple posted:As far as 9/11 conspiracies go, I find the alternate "explanations" centered around the WTC and Pentagon to be crap, but United 93 getting shot down seems pretty realistic. Maybe I'm the idiot here, but why wouldn't the military hit a hijacked plane after 3 others just flew into crowded landmarks? It has nothing to do with an inside job and the motivations are a lot more plausible (if not justifiable) than manufacturing a reason to go to war overseas. It doesn't even have to have fake phone calls or black box recordings. I am somewhat curious as to how all those calls got recorded, but there could be an easy answer to that. The main point is, why would the government take the chance on a ragtag group of airline passengers stopping another heinous attack, even if they were somehow aware such a thing was occurring on the plane? That's not even a conspiracy theory. Bush gave authorization to shoot down Flight 93, and NORAD scrambled jets but they didn't have time to arm them so the pilots planned to ram the plane, but they didn't find it in time. Everyone has said that they tried to bring Flight 93 down before it could hit its target. NORAD even testified to the 9/11 commission that they would have been successful in stopping it before it reached Washington, but the commission concluded that was bullshit because NORAD didn't even find out that Flight 93 was hijacked until after it crashed. The 9/11 Commission Report, Chapter 1 posted:The Vice President stated that he called the President to discuss the rules of engagement for the CAP. He recalled feeling that it did no good to establish the CAP unless the pilots had instructions on whether they were authorized to shoot if the plane would not divert. He said the President signed off on that concept. The President said he remembered such a conversation, and that it reminded him of when he had been an interceptor pilot. The President emphasized to us that he had authorized the shootdown of hijacked aircraft. There's no need to speculate because everyone from the President on down openly admitted they wanted to shoot down Fight 93, even tried to argue that they would have been successful because at least that would be one ray of competence on that black day of unpreparedness and failure. If they had shot down the plane, they wouldn't have cooked up some tale about brave passengers, faked a bunch of phone calls, and paid off/threatened everyone's families to lie: they would have bragged about it forever and ever because Bush was that desperate to show that he did something, anything, to respond to the attacks rather than reading a children's book while the towers went down. It's mind-boggling that rather than reading the report and finding problems in the official story (but that takes work), people just go on flights of fancy over basic questions answered in the Commission Report even over points like this where the report agrees with them! Christ, if you have questions, start with the report. It's pretty good and goes into detail about everything. Even if you think it's all just lies and cover-ups, if you want to debunk the official story you should probably know what it actually is! Edit: Oh hey, Blind Pineapple, the frustration in the last paragraph is directed at truthers, not at you. I was posting to answer your question, but somehow it turned into a rant against the truthers by the end, sorry. Don't take it personally, but do read the report; it's actually readable and very interesting. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 12:27
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withak posted:While governments have unlimited power and competence in planning and executing their far-reaching conspiracies, and at keeping the operation a secret from all but a few select geniuses after the event, they are totally incompetent at shutting up those select few who are able to find out the secret. The government is afraid to move against Alex Jones because they know he's right and shutting him up would only confirm everything, and a government with the skill and resources to murder thousands of people and make the world believe it was a terrorist attack would be unable to simply assassinate him and make it look like an accident. Or maybe they could, but they don't bother because the information is out there and it's too late anyway, so they are just counting on the bottomless credulity of the American people to believe the official story.
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Sep 13, 2013 14:48
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Trent posted:I am no expert on any of the science, but I have always harbored a strong suspicion that the United 93 was shot down. I am just paranoid enough not to want to say why because I fear getting someone in a high station in trouble for talking about it before it even hit the news and then recanting and verbally redacting their statement. Of course, they could easily have been mistaken as well. The 9/11 Commission covered extensively how the military tried and failed to shoot down Flight 93, and how NORAD tried to look good for the commission with an erroneous claim that if it hadn't crashed they would have shot it down in time. They would not have faked phone calls and flight recordings and eyewitness accounts and whatever impossible poo poo to cover up blowing up the flight. They would have told everyone they shot it down and bragged about how good our air defense was. If the government was doing all these big cover ups and lying to the American people, you would think they would fabricate a story that inspires confidence and loyalty, not one that makes them look as useless and incompetent as possible. I, from literally the same page, posted:Direct quotes from the 9/11 commission. Christ, I was complaining that people jump off into speculation and conspiracy theories without even reading the report about what happened, but apparently I can't even count on people reading a 10-sentence excerpt that I posted on this very page 
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 14, 2013 |
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Sep 14, 2013 03:52
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Every drink you take contains molecules that someone peed out of their peehole at some point. You're drinking sewage, medical biohazard, wake up sheeple!
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Apr 25, 2017 06:55
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Wait is the WHO worth listening to or not. Because I'm looking at their standards on water fluoridation and "[s posted:The World Health Organization[/s] Zionist Mindcontroller Globalists"]
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Apr 25, 2017 07:16
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I'm seeing this Hillary Clinton and the DNC assassinated Seth Rich conspiracy theory popping up again and it's amazing. The DNC is able to (a) plan and execute assassinations with no evidence trail pointing back to them and without anyone involved leaking it, yet (b) can't keep an email password secure.
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May 17, 2017 08:49
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Gorilla Salad posted:From a quick google for "how many people worked at the world trade centers" I got this from the Guardian: The federal government has more than enough money to pay crisis actors to pretend to work in the WTC every day for 20 years, which is what those 50,000 people all were except for the 2,996 real workers who were all assigned to the top floors and left to die. And none of the actors came forward because they don't want to give up their lucrative gig of faking every single mass shooting in America by pretending to be the friends and families of the nonexistent victims. Like you would not believe how well it pays. Do you really think we just lost those pallets of money we sent to Iraq?
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Jun 22, 2017 08:32
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Data Graham posted:And therefore what? 
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Jun 23, 2017 06:47
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Terrorist attacks, mass shootings, hurricanes etc are existentially terrifying. Anyone can be a victim, you might be next, and they're intractable problems that difficult or even impossible to solve as a nation. An individual is utterly powerless. Some people just can't cope with that. But, if these aren't the result of millions of actors in a complicated world. If it's all one enemy, the US government with false flag demolitions/crisis actors/magical weather machines and all the rest then the solution is easy and simple. For the individual, the task is clear: just get out "the truth" and once all your friends and neighbors have been awakened America will come to its senses, vote out the conspirators, and President Ron Paul or Jill Stein will expose all the secret evidence and the bad things will stop. Just like that.
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Jun 23, 2017 11:14
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I don't think there's any argument that Bush would do something like that if he thought he could get away with it, because he obviously would, or if not him then Cheney definitely would deliberately murder thousands of Americans even for an absurdly small profit, probably as low as literally one dollar. The big sticking point for the Bush Did 9/11 is that the years of his administration's incompetence, buffoonery, and total inability to plan their way out of a paper bag made it drastically less believable that they could pull off such a plot without anyone finding out. They didn't even plan ahead enough to plant the WMDs during they invasion.
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Jul 26, 2017 00:51
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Secret Agent X23 posted:In order to have "Bush did 9/11," I don't think you have to posit that Bush himself, or anyone in his administration, actually did anything at all beyond coming up with the simple idea of carrying out a clump of spectacular terrorist attacks in furtherance of...whatever. It's easy for me to picture Cheney, or whoever, saying, as soon as he hears the idea, "Great idea! But right now, don't say another single, solitary word. We've talked about it enough. Something like this, we need to outsource it. Look, I know a guy. I'll go make a phone call. You forget about it, Georgie boy. You forget about it altogether, and we never had this conversation, and maybe eventually, you'll see something big on the news." That still requires the administration to have 19 strangers willing to die for them for (???), whom they don't know yet are 100% assured that none of them will have second thoughts or back out at the last minute and spill it or tell someone in their family or Unless the plot is even more indirect like just secretly funnel money to Al Qaeda and hope something big happens, but then it's (a) still Al Qaeda doing it and (b) the plot is ultimately unnecessary because the attack cost a paltry some to carry out.
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Jul 26, 2017 01:41
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If the Bush Administration had access to that perfectly competent one guy who could plan and execute a 19-man suicide attack whose perpetrators have no ideological reason to kill themselves and no idea why they're even doing it, without them or their families or anyone involved getting caught or wussing out, Bush should have called that guy to plant the WMD's.
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Jul 26, 2017 05:26
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Secret Agent X23 posted:Why do you think the contractor wouldn't give them an ideological reason to carry out the mission? He could feed 'em a line about the United States being evil and decadent, or whatever, and them being heroes, and he can promise them seventy-two virgins. Tell 'em whatever works. That they would lie to people is the easiest part of this to believe. Okay but then that's just the official story down to radical fundamentalist Muslim terrorists trained by Al Qaeda doing a suicide attack on US civilian and military targets except I guess one secretive contractor sent AQ an anonymous email with the plan? And the real plot didn't have the risk of "what if people find out it was us all along" because they always intended to take credit and say "yeah it was us, withdraw from the Middle East, Great Satan because we can attack your homeland and we'll do it again", and even if they got caught beforehand we wouldn't hate Bin Laden any more than we did when he succeeded. If Bush did it or even tried to do it but got exposed hooooooooooly poo poo it would be bad for him.
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Jul 26, 2017 09:01
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Like yeah I guess "what if Bush just gave Bin Laden the idea over an anonymous phone call and no one else knew" is reasonably safe from the "Bush was too incompetent to pull off the conspiracy" criticism, but typical 9/11 Truther posits a conspiracy much larger and more complex than that.
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Jul 26, 2017 09:06
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steinrokkan posted:I like the apparent presumption that nobody hates America enough to carry out terrorist acts against Americans of their own volition. This version of the theory seems to accept that, but then it asserts Arabs aren't smart enough to think up that plan and needed an old white man to tell them what to do, those poor dumb swarthy children *Crafty white leader goes on a six-month war against those dummies, gets glorious army trapped in a quagmire for 15 years, can't figure out how to get out*
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Jul 26, 2017 13:26
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Secret Agent X23 posted:And that's yet another reason other than "inept" to discount "inside job." I mean, yeah, the United States government has been known to poo poo the bed in some pretty shocking ways when secrets have made their way into the public, but this would be miles and miles and miles beyond any of that. No "the Bush Administration is too inept" is not countered by "okay what if I imagine Bush somehow had control over a super-ept organization which agreed with him completely but was totally insulated from his bumbling, an organization which I can claim is arbitrarily as capable as is wanted/needed for any conspiracy theory, and is undetectable and unknowable because again I can just claim they're as capable as they need to be to maintain total secrecy". E: Also Bush forgot to hire any of those competent people to plant the WMDs that he knew weren't in Iraq in this scenario. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 01:50
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That just moves the conspiracy theory one step out without resolving the original problem. Bush/Cheney were too inept to succeed anything, but somehow they were able to recruit/vet a theoretical hypercompetent guy who could not only put together the whole conspiracy in perfect secrecy but also keep anyone from knowing they even exist because they can be assumed to be as competent as necessary for the conspiracy theory to work, and this supercontractor only did this one thing and nothing else so he couldn't be detected any other way and his wizard competence wasn't evident in anything else the administration did. And every year that goes by with no one finding out about his existence just makes him retroactively more competent in order to fit the theory. You may as well say Bush wished 9/11 into being on a magic lamp which he quietly dropped overboard after he landed on the USS Lincoln, can't rule that out either. E: Illuminti posted:If the moon landing was faked I think the way Kennedy would have done it is to contact a scientist he has never met (before he was president) and tell him to begin a 20 year operation to force NASA to film the landings with Stanley Kubrick. And never ever speak to him again. That is as reasonable and pointless as what you are saying. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 06:53
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Sure I agree that for any conspiracy theory, if you posit a hypothetical person X with the arbitrary capability and competence to carry it out in total secrecy, it is more plausible for Bush to ask that person to do the conspiracy rather than to do it himself. I also agree that for any conspiracy theory, if you posit a hypothetical supernatural entity X with the arbitrary power... In both cases you've just transferred the implausibility of the conspiracy theory to the implausibility of a secret person who can carry out that same conspiracy plus cover up his own existence. It doesn't actually make the theory any more reasonable, it just invents another variable and all the original problems with the theory remain only covered up by begging the question (just assume this guy can do whatever is needed) VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 08:29
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QuarkJets posted:Yeah local governments aren't elected... o wait actually they are usually elected more directly than the POTUS Clean air is a globalist plot to trick you into denying yourself the health benefits of sucking on a tailpipe
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Aug 18, 2017 06:41
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RobotDogPolice posted:3. An element can be hazardous to your health when bonded with one element, but not when it's bonded to another. Pfft yeah maybe if you just believe everything they tell you in government brainwashing centers, or schools to you sleepwalking normies.
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Nov 20, 2017 10:55
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If flat earthers were giving me free money for my hobby, I'd claim it was producing evidence of a flat earth too.boner confessor posted:he could charter a light airplane to go way higher than that rocket will go, for way cheaper Every single licensed pilot is in on the coverup though so of course funding my hobby is the only way to prove they're lying.
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Nov 22, 2017 08:37
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