The Walking Dead: "This shit is screwed up!"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > The Walking Dead: "This shit is screwed up!"

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

"over powered" is a good term here because it reinforces how Carol is the power gamer/PC gamer of the group. Somewhere in the first season, they also cover themselves in zombie guts and it works. But that scene is mostly about how gross, scary and disgusting the adventure is. It's two people who have guts and blood and rotten human flesh all over themselves, walking through an army of the dead! It's really visceral!
And now, we have Carol, who has no heart, no emotional reactions at all. She plays the game like a speed run. She has no soul. She's all tactics. She doesn't mind the stench, because there is no smell in computer games. She doesn't mind the enemy NPCs being eaten by zombies, because, who cares about NPCs?
It's awesome.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2014 23:55

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# ¿ May 18, 2024 09:10

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

They wrote PhD theses about Buffy dime a dozen, so surely there is some scholarly interest in this show. Can anybody recommend any interesting literature on this show as a cultural phenomenon, and what it says about us that we love to watch a show about the rapid breakdown of civilization?

# ¿ Oct 29, 2014 14:55

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

This episode left me with two questions.

How is Beth risking a zombie outbreak in a comparatively safe refuge for a bunch of people not totally awful of her?

When did "The Greater Good" turn into a clear tell for These People Are Evil?

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 17:46

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Kelly posted:

I mean really if you think about it Rick's group is about the greater good too but they are our "heroes" that we root for, so it's okay. (Rape cop(s) aside of course).

No, it's worse. Consider Carol. She kind of looks a bit as if the was really into this Greater Good thing, right? Killing a kid because it endangers the group, killing the infected, terminating Terminus, al that?
Carol is not for the Greater Good. Dawn believes she is part of a greater society, that there are other groups like hers, and the community of communities - society - is what it's worth being evil for.
Carol doesn't believe in society. She believes in Family. As does Rick (that's also where Rick's conflict over Eugene is coming from). Carol cares for a very tight, limited, and nearly impenetrable circle. It's a club of murderers, but it's HER murderers, so she will let loose the zombie horde on Terminus to protect her Family without actually investigating what's truly going on there.

This is a stereotypically right-wing way of thinking; the people on the other side of the fence are not my concern, which is why we can build a fence there. Oh look, there's a fence, the people on the other side are not my concern, and so on.

But my question was mainly about the specific phrase, the Greater Good. Carol will also sacrifice others for the (narrow) group she fights for, but she's "badass", not evil. Dawn is obviously evil, right? Why do we know that? She believes in the Greater Good.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 18:04

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:

Hahaha seriously? Oh yeah aside from the fact that I'm going to be subjected to rape slavery for the rest of my life like that girl who tried to kill herself this group is clearly legit, it would be wrong of me to put any of these fine upstanding citizens in any danger in my attempt to escape from my inevitable sexual servitude.

They're bad people, but the comparison group are a bunch of murderous CANNIBALS.
One thing the series keeps hammering in is that the zombie apocalypse is not good for the head. Dawn is clearly not as bad as the Terminus leader, or the Governor. Her worst feature seems to be tolerating Rape cop. Of course, tolerating Rape Cop is not a good thing, but the last dude literally ate a guy's leg in front of him. Dawn slapped Beth.
That's not good, but if you think they deserve to be eaten by zombies for what they are, you ... probably deserve to be eaten by zombies yourself!!

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 18:19

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Jay-V posted:

Actually of the three, Governor's group was probably the least sick in terms of how this group of people organized themselves and survive. I think the key theme that makes all these groups bad is that they all insist that you're with them or you're against them. Rick's group is OK with others coming and going (see Morgan in the beginning, Carol being "let go" but not killed, Abraham and crew coming in and then going on their own for a bit), but Governor/Dawn/Gareth definitely are not about that.

That's a good point.

(Which I should have caught myself, considering my avatar.)

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 18:36

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:

They made it pretty clear that the rape was approved on an institutional scale, when suicide girl referred to "them" when she said that Dawn could control them but chose not too.

I didn't make that connection. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention, the episode wasn't especially exciting. If it's truly institutional, it's a different scenario.

Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:

But my bad, you're right that the baseline for when it's ok to kill in self-defense has been set at "are my captors worse than literal cannibals?" Beth is truly the real monster here.

Beth killing Rape Cop is one thing; Beth letting zombies loose in a hospital full of people chained to their beds etc. is not self defense.

I also complained about Carol flooding Terminus with zombies, so clearly my baseline is even higher than that!

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 18:53

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Good point, I guess I didn't pay enough attention.

Although we didn't really see enough people to really give a class society picture. We saw more cops than scrubbers!

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 18:58

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

I know it wasn't her plan to kill everyone (just as she didn't know she'd run into more cops). But she loose two zombies in the building and let others deal with the consequences. Remember what happened in the Prison when only one small sickly boy resurrected; they were also a bunch of warriors taking care of civilians, and they weren't overrun, but people died.
She could at least have stayed to kill the first two; wouldn't have been a problem. She didn't because she needed a distraction. It didn't became as much of a distraction as she would have needed precisely because it was quickly contained. It easily could have cost a lot more lives.

But either way, what I originally asked was, when did the Greater Good became the obvious tell for bad people? Because I don't think the Rape-based Economy had been revealed when that phrased was first uttered, but one immediately understands it means Dawn is evil and we'll all cheer once she is inevitably eaten by either zombies, or Rick. And as has been pointed out, I should have known better, because the answer is: in The Open Society And Its Enemies.

e:

moths posted:

E: I really like how stuff isn't spelled out through exposition anymore. This was a really tight episode with some layers to dig through, but I think most people saw it was Beth, stopped paying attention, and then decided it sucked.

This is clearly me, but I don't mind Beth.
I think the episode simply wasn't that good. I didn't even catch on to the subtle cues for how Dawn et al. were bad, but her justification speeches were just bad. I didn't find any of the characters convincing but for Noah, and that was not due to his overly tight writing, but all the actor.

Cingulate fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Nov 3, 2014

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 19:48

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Parity warning posted:

Some people literally quit watching less than half way in to play with their phones or whatever, and they think that's the show's fault.

Actually, yes, it is. Being boring is quite literally the show's fault.

e:f,b

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 21:56

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

moths posted:

I think Dawn's speech was basically where the episode clicks. The "greater good" speech was bullshit, and her performance conveyed that at some level she realized it. But she needs that, because the alternative is to acknowledge that she's running a glorified rape gang of slavers. (Terminus was refreshingly honest with its depravity, by contrast.)

The hospital's theme was the polite fictions that accompany unjust power structures, with a side of lies that allow them to flourish. You can leave (as soon as we're square.) We're doing those we exploit a favor. My wrongs lead to a greater good. These sins are necessary. Lies we tell ourselves.

I think truth and deception relative to power and violence are emerging as major recurring themes this season. Terminus was honest with themselves but deceitful to prospective meals - but then overtly brutal. The hospital was deceitful to everyone, and it had a culture of deceit. Terminus killed you in an abattoir, the hospital slipped you the wrong pills.

And interestingly, both settlements were faught with their own techniques. The Terminus leadership was butchered. Carol's daylight commando raid contrasts interestingly with Beth's spy-thriller escape. I'm excited to see how introducing Carol into this environment will turn out.

I didn't like any of these. I have no idea what was going on with Beth's sewer escape fight - it reminded me of the first person scene in Uwe Boll's AitD.

It also wasn't especially subtle. The Rape Cop was Rape Cop from literally the first time we meet him (favor nudge nudge?), there's this scene with Noah scrubbing while Dawn gives him orders, and so on. In fact, the early scenes being so over the top is what made me tune out. The hospital was a big cliche - the Greater God, Rape Cop - there's a reason everybody is putting that guy in all caps. I'm not saying Terminus was all that special, but the leader's actor really sold the guy.

EatinCake posted:

It seems odd to me that this show can afford a couple dozen extra's for all the zombie scenes, but for some reason when we're told about a small society of folks with their own social order, there only appears to be about seven of em. Like, maybe that was intentional, but every time a character went on about the system they have in place, it sounded like they were referring to something a little more substantial.

Which is a shame, because the episodes beginning shot with the janitor dude just minding his own business was probably my favorite of the episode. What a brilliantly uncanny thing to see that someone has enough peace of mind to work as a janitor in this post-apocalyptic world.

Yes, and yes. More upper class than lower class guys doesn't really sell the theme, but the janitor was visceral. Beth looking at him, you really get how astonished she is somebody has the time to clean the floor during the apocalypse!

Cingulate fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Nov 3, 2014

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 22:01

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

This idea that people don't like it because it's a Beth episode, or because it's not violent, don't really reflect the posts in this thread. I don't see any Beth hate, the episode was actually pretty violent (though of course not on the level of Carol's Rambo run in ep. 1), and the complaints are about things like Dawn's lines being bad.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 22:08

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

moths posted:

What was subtle was that they were ALL rape cops. It was a predatory culture that exploited their "wards" in every way, and the alpha ward was willing to murder when his place at the top of the bottom was threatened.

It was an interesting episode. A lot happened, and revealed lot about the TWD world. But it was also a lot more mature than the show has been, and I entirely understand how that change in tone could be off-putting.

I like the story you're telling - well, as much as one can "like" the idea of a 'rape-based economy' (I mean, I can imagine that would have been an interesting story to tell) - but that's not the story the show told to me (when I was still paying attention). When Rape Cop shows up to creep up on Beth (while she's getting the food), he's not painted as a part of the system, but as a creepy individual.

Cingulate fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Nov 3, 2014

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 22:31

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

moths posted:

And that's really the story that was told, but you had to actively watch and piece different character's dialogue together to figure out what was happening.

If you thought he was the only rapist, like a lot of people seemed to, the episode loses a lot. But a lot of things get extra creepy in the actual context. Noah being more desirable than his father, and then less desirable than Beth, for example.

The other cops ignored a wounded, hobbling-away slave to capture an armed girl. They're all in on it.

So they've hidden a good story inside a bad story?

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 22:48

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

moths posted:

They told a good story quietly.

Let's see if I like it more if I watch it a second time. For now, I'll remember it as a decent idea executed poorly.
I definitely liked two things: the scene where Beth is awestruck by a guy mopping the floor (also a nice mirror of that time when Rick woke up in a hospital), and Walking Dead's take on a suicide bomb*.

Also: I felt the backlash for criticism of this episode was strangely personal. If you didn't like it, it was because you're a goony goon who only likes flashy action and can't appreciate deep nuanced story telling. I don't think that's necessary.

*: e:f,b again

# ¿ Nov 3, 2014 22:57

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

GrAviTy84 posted:

Lollipop was brilliant. It was probably the most uncomfortable I've ever been watching this show. It makes you root for beth, it gave us context for the office scene with suicide girl all the while addressing rape in post apocalypse with out actually showing it.

We're actually having rape stuff every other episode. Carl/Michonne claimed, Terminus flashbacks.

Surlaw posted:

Have you read this thread? Apparently they didn't go far enough in explaining that they're doing something bad.

Not really. Nobody here was left wondering, hm, what about this Rape Cop guy, maybe he's just having a bad day, why is Beth so angry, lollipops taste nice!

On the second attempt, I didn't like it any more.
Noah's first scene with Beth is truly terrible. Both pacing wise, and writing wise. He immediately opens up to Beth and tells her he's planning an escape in like his 4th sentence, and his last lines are cringe-worthy. "They think I'm weak. They don't know poo poo about me, about what I am, about what you are." This scene was when I kinda tuned out last time.
A true credit to the actor that he's still a likable figure.

SocketWrench posted:

As opposed to?
"Well, they were rapists, but the one girl that they should have raped they didn't even try! This show is bullshit".
It's a show of how authority can slowly change from just to bad in the name of compromise. The compromise being keeping everything together.

You know what would have been subtle and layered? If in their characterization of Dawn's hospital, there actually had been any doubt. If they had actually slowly constructed it in a way that halfway through you're actually, for a second, thinking: hm, maybe in the context of the zombie apocalypse, rape-based economy isn't such a bad idea. If they had shown you Dawn's perspective. Maybe even humanize Rape Cop for a second. Show how it's actually true that if they hadn't save this person, they'd be dead. Show an alternative attempt that failed because somebody was sticking to their principles.

Cingulate fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Nov 4, 2014

# ¿ Nov 4, 2014 16:22

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

SocketWrench posted:

Oh, you're one of the ones that wants a movie crammed into a few minutes of tv show

Wasn't I just complaining about a scene being too crammed and too early?

All I'm saying is, this wasn't especially nuanced. They basically drew evil twin mustaches on them and had them kick a puppy; cue the inevitable zombie punishment (and hopefully soon, Carol).
I liked the Terminus crew much more. They were literally cannibals, and still felt like they had more to offer.

I don't know why I'm spending so much energy complaining. All in all, I didn't like it - for numerous reasons. None of which, incidentally, were Beth.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2014 16:58

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

I'm not sure "nuanced" is the right word for Terminus either. But I enjoyed the flashbacks to Terminus' "origin story". You didn't like Gareth's insane ramblings?

I think the show's better at handling current, relevant, hot-button issues like "cannibalism - yes or no?" or "a man who keeps his relative's heads in jars - can he be trusted?" than what they tried with the hospital. Maybe they tried nuanced - and failed.
Well, hopefully the next episode is super rad and Dawn shows her interesting side. What we had seen of Terminus at their initial appearance in S4 wasn't so interesting either.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2014 17:33

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Senor Tron posted:

A single tank of gas would get them a fair chunk of the way to DC (or another far away city) yet we've have multiple examples of them spending prolonged times on the road and running out of gas only to apparently have barely moved. The one way that doesn't make sense is how neither scouts from the prison nor Woodbury ever ran into Terminus, yet after the prison falls there are apparently signs for it everywhere.

The show is actually a very subtle near-future satire on how Google Maps is turning us into idiots.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2014 12:17

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:

I want to see them run into a group that actually did know about Terminus, and Woodbury, (and Grady Memorial why not) and knows about them falling so in their mind Rick's group are elevated to near-mythical agents of destruction.

So basically My Name is Legend

# ¿ Nov 5, 2014 19:06

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Crankit posted:

The thing that didn't make any sense to me was eating guinea pig, who has been keeping a guinea pig alive for all that time just to eat because he killed another doctor. What do you feed a guinea pig for all that time.

As the doc mentioned in the scene, guinea pigs are part of the traditional cuisine of Peru. I actually really liked this idea.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2014 21:50

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

GrAviTy84 posted:

sure, I get that, but like, Dawn isn't much stronger than Beth. No reason why she shouldn't be "keeping the officers happy," too.

First, on TV in general, 110lbs women routinely beat up 225lbs men. Next, continuing on what SocketWrench said, in TWD, physical strength does not determine fighting prowess. How much of your inner zombie you're willing to show does. The scene where Rick eats that guy's throat is the best example, or Carol wearing a dead skin mask. An earlier example was Rick killing Shawn; it's all about who's more "badass". Dawn is more badass than the other cops.

Seriously, look at her. She'd gently caress up Rape Cop.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2014 22:19

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

GrAviTy84 posted:

It's kind of a passing statement during the whole "guinea pig isn't really a treat" bit. He lets her try a bite, she's like "meh, and he says "eh people in Peru like it" or something to that effect. They call it cuy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig#As_food

I think his point was that he doesn't believe anybody would keep their single guinea pig throughout the zombie apocalypse.

E: I want to eat guinea pig now.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2014 00:21

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

GrAviTy84 posted:

oh. yeah, I answered that earlier, they have a lot of test animals at hospitals.

Yeah, I feel silly for pointing this out, but guinea pigs are famous for two things: being used for medical research, and breeding very quickly.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2014 00:26

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

For a guinea pig, a live human probably is exactly as scary as a walking dead human. And about as dangerous.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2014 12:31

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Don't they wrap themselves up the first time they do it?

Carol is beyond human anyways.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2014 01:05

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Colonial Air Force posted:

Zombie media is almost never about the zombies. Night of the Living Dead and all the stuff Romero did that followed was about how terrible human society is, using its collapse under the zombie apocalypse as the backdrop.

Isn't it rather about how terrible the absence of human society is? How terrible individuals and groups isolated from society can be?

# ¿ Nov 9, 2014 18:12

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

The point about the various zombie disguises is it's all about giving up your humanity. Michonne more or less explicitly explains this at some point.
It's about detachment; weren't her first zombie companies are literally her former friends, whose hands and teeth she cut off?
It's about how inhuman you're willing to become.

About half of TWD can be explained by just that thing actually. The more you give up your humanity, the more you begin to resemble the zombies even while you're alive, the mightier you become. Biting a guy isn't actually a powerful martial arts move. But by becoming a living zombie, Rick becomes mighty.

precision posted:

gently caress man science still can't explain why people yawn.

Or sleep.

We have a bunch of neat (and incompatible) theories though!

# ¿ Nov 11, 2014 23:48

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

It'd be cool if we maybe could have a rape allusion free Zombie Show episode ever so often.

GrAviTy84 posted:

"Ellen, You're safe now. I stopped them. You don't have to be scared now"

Yeah. Sounds like a wife beater to me.

Actually, I was told that men who are violent in relationships are also often very protective. It's like ... I'm allowed to touch her, even roughly, but nobody else is.
(I'm not saying Abe's a wife beater. I much prefer him to not be in fact. Goes against the stereotype.)

# ¿ Nov 12, 2014 02:14

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# ¿ May 18, 2024 09:10

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:

I think we might just have to chalk that up to the writers having serious problems in their brains.

Everyone is infected.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2014 18:01

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > The Walking Dead: "This shit is screwed up!"