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Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Herc v Hulk has most often boiled down to a draw. Hulk is stronger, no doubt. But a lot of it boils down to circumstance given that Hulk's power levels may as well be dictated by a die roll given how consistent he is. Or isn't.

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Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Lurdiak posted:

That's stupid, there's nothing gritty about most golden age heroes and those guys were basically serial killers.

Well, yes and no. A lot of it depended on their popularity; Batman and Superman started out being pretty dangerous guys, then as they got to be popular with the kids (which was only a few years in), editors started being like "whoa, Batman only shoots to wound!" and then "Batman doesn't shoot, period". Which is how you get stuff like the radio version of The Shadow, who's reduced to using his ability to cloud men's minds to go and sneak out what the criminals are doing, and then... call the police on them.

You still had stuff like Captain Marvel shooting fleeing men in the back with a machinegun in the old film serials (mind, they were foreign bad guys, and so a white American shooting them in the back was probably still legal), but some comic book editors were concerned about that sort of thing well over a decade before Seduction of the Innocent. It wasn't so much that Golden Age heroes were more bloodthirsty, but that there just weren't the same established conventions for how superheroes were supposed to act until the Comics Code landed and codified things for most publishers.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Shatterstar's sword! It has two blades. That's, like, double the sword.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
The original Wonder Woman would be more than a little weird to try and translate to the modern day. Most people would likely think she was some sort of parody. Or, alternately, a spinoff for Empowered.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

That cover makes me feel like some kind of physic.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

CapnAndy posted:

Ultimatum is so, so much worse than Ultimates 3. You're gonna suffer.

It's easily one of the top five worst comic series put out by Marvel that decade. Of course, if I put Ultimates 3 on the same list, I start to... make that a top ten, though. There have been a lot of really, really bad Marvel series when I think too hard about it.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

CapnAndy posted:

I honestly thought Ultimate X-Men got pretty interesting. Never well written enough to be good, but there was a story there.

Yeah, I kinda liked the Brian Wood run, it wasn't great, but it kept me at least curious to see where he'd take it next. It mostly just seems to meander to a conclusion, unfortunately, and a lot of story branches just die. But it was interesting.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Lightning Lord posted:

It had the fatal flaw of being written by Brian Wood though.

This was riiight before the accusations of harassment came up, IIRC. But yes, it's something that might color the run in retrospect.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Ultragonk posted:

And I think Valkyrie is dead again, which is loving amazing considering the effort they put in to having Thor save her thankfully she attacked the master of magnetism with a sword. These people are terrible.

Really what encapsulates Ultimatum for me is the part where Valkyrie cuts Magneto's arm with her sword somehow, even though she's coming right at him and he's not like "boy, maybe I should stop this", and also for some reason he isn't like "AAAAAA MY ARM". No, instead he stands there like an action figure, chides her for using a metal sword against him, which, I dunno, seems to have worked out beyond anybody's wildest expectations, given that he's minus an arm, and kills her with the sword.

Nothing in that sequence makes the faintest bit of sense and yet some editor was like- wait, the book has multiple editors credited? There were as many as four whole people who looked at that series and were like "yup, that'll do".

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Ultragonk posted:

I didn't quite see the point of killing her once and then doing it again.

I'm not sure anything in Ultimatum had a point to it, it's baffling.

Ultimatum is also problematic given Loeb's personal history; it's about a man reacting to the death of his daughter, and Loeb went through the death of his own son to cancer a few years previous to writing it, and has done a number of tributes to his son in various books. But the fact a lot of his writing is colored by that tragic event makes the series even more uncomfortable.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

DigitalRaven posted:

Add Simonson's Thor to that list. Come for Thorse, stay for Volstagg's philosophy of food.

Absolutely, read this.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Captain Britain was an abusive alcoholic for awhile.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
It's real bad. Easily one of the weakest books Matt Fraction has done for Marvel. About the best thing that can be said is that we got a pretty dece pinball table out of it.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

CapnAndy posted:

I thought Lady Death doesn't actually get naked, she just constantly wears that outfit to make her fanboys think she's gonna at any given second?

Well, you can't sell porn to adolescents if the characters don't wear at least token clothing.

zoux posted:

Wildstorm?

Lady Death was Chaos!, and Shi was... some other forgotten company?

Wildstorm was still an Image imprint at the time.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Mover posted:

But I don't think I'm familiar with the Doom at the bottom, which looks to be either Valeria or Sue taking up the armor. Anyone know what that's referencing? And I guess that last wasteland too, if it's anything specific. That little guy in silhouette does look kinda striking.

That does look like an older Valeria, who, in her original appearances, sported a ponytail and wore a Doom-style cape, gauntlets, and boots over a Fantastic Four-themed dress, it was quite a bit of fashion confusion.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
I just wanted to mention that I've been an agent of HAMMER all along, and am now edgier and cooler as a result. This isn't your grandpa's Alien Rope Burn!

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Yeah, Wolverine has gotten his head hacked off in at least one other What If and I think something Warren Ellis-penned, even though it doesn't really seem possible under normal circumstances.

FilthyImp posted:

It honestly seemed like a cute little experiment to reinvigorate the line.

The fact that Bendis/Bagley nailed it made it easier to sell as an ongoing, expanding universe.

But then the problem became "Oh, so I need to catch up on 8 years of events+crossovers". Which isn't terrible when your properties have 30+ years of continuity, but at some point the weight of it undoes the purpose of the experiment.

The real problem is when writers realize they have freedom to do all sorts of things they couldn't in normal continuity, which means diverging not only from normal continuity, but the basic setting of "Earth as we know it, but with capes". And though that might seem interesting to the writers penning it, it creates a whole new level of things that need to be explained on top of all the complicated superhero shenanigans.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Original five + Storm, Wolverine, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Shadowcat, and Rogue.

I doubt think having an "iconic X-Men team" is true to the spirit of the franchise but that's who my mind goes to.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Rhyno posted:

Millar's run had potential but it fell behind schedule and then they slotted in 4 extra issues by Tom Peyer that were not very good. Pretty much the Authority is a book that shouldn't have gone past #12.

Yeah. Mostly the best stuff you can say about later Authority is that it was notably still doing something different than other superhero books at the time, but if you're not reading them in the moment they were made they have not stood the test of time. The nadir was when they got Art Adams as an artist, DC decided it was too violent, and then asked Art Adams to redo pages, necessitating the whole Peyer fill-in arc.

It's amazing how hard DC hobbled Wildstorm just as it started to reach a creative peak and then eventually drove them into utter obscurity, eventually just leaving the line to serve as the DC Try-Out Book.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Grey Area posted:

If you care about the Fantastic Four I can recommend Baxter Building by Jeff Lester and Graeme McMillan. They read a dozen issues of Fantastic Four every month starting from #1 and talk about them. Not as polished and concise as J&M, but quite entertaining.

Do they have something resembling a formula? I generally like what they have to say but Wait, What?! kept going onto half-hour diversions about their local waffle hut that just lost me.

My favorite comics podcast is House to Astonish with Paul O'Brien and Al Kennedy, though they're more a news 'n review sort of show, Paul O'Brien's X-Axis blog reviews (that dated back to rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks) were a big inspiration behind JAMXTX. If nothing else, if you listen to one comics podcast ever, make it House to Astonish's Handbook Tapes episode, which is a world wonder of comics nerddom.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
I think Guy Gardner was best summed up by Chris Sims:

Chris Sims posted:

As annoying as Guy can be–and brother, he can be annoying–he’s a brilliant character. Why? Because a guy that was totally honest and totally fearless really WOULD be a complete jerk.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Bear in mind John Stewart's undergone some serious character erosion from when he was a clever, outspoken, and independent hero who was an educated architect... to the modern version that had his sense of humor excised by blowing up a planet, and his military background somehow became his overriding trait that drowned out most of his personality. Is Johns responsible for him becoming a Serious Soldier Guy, or is JLU to blame, or something earlier?

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
In that context, what's the general opinion of the old Harley & Ivy series? Given it was the series that all but made the subtext text.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
I've always wanted to go through all of Dr. Strange's comics and detail all the spells he's used.

But not enough to actually do it or anything, mind.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
"Orphan Battle" is my friends' nickname for Batman vs. Superman.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
It was always meant to end on a Bill Hicks quote. Obviously.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Lurdiak posted:

I'm sure if I posted either of those pieces of poo poo on imgur or reddit it'd get a million points and tons of comments saying it's the best version of the characters they've ever seen.

It's easy to mistake tragedy for meaning.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
If I'm remembering all this correctly:
  • Rogue gets Ms. Marvel's powers.
  • Also at one point she absorbs a telepathic Skrull and starts being able to manifest any power she's absorbed previously, but doesn't have much control over it. The main side effect of this is her wearing red shades.
  • Rogue has her powers boosted by Sage to call on any power she's used before to beat a forgettable villain, burning her powers out. Sage offers to restore her powers but Rogue blows her off. She leaves the team.
  • Rogue gets her powers back and rejoins the team. This has never been explained.
  • Rogue gets Sunfire's powers to avenge him. (His own powers would later be restored by Apocalypse.)
  • Rogue's powers are amplified by a virus known as Strain 88 to instantly absorb / kill people she touches.
  • Rogue is exposed to baby Hope, who cures her of Strain 88 and wipes all of the memories she's absorbed (along with Sunfire's powers).
  • Due to her largely blank slate in terms of absorbed memories, Professor X is able to finally treat Rogue's lack of control issues psychically. Rogue then has control of her powers after that.
  • To stop a Celestial, Rogue absorbs the powers of dozens of superheroes. Scarlet Witch is able to return those powers, but Wonder Man remains stuck within her, giving her his powers, but the process drives her mad and... she loses her control over her powers again.
  • One of the High Evolutionary's goons wipes Wonder Man's mind from her, seemingly leaving her with his powers alone.
There might be other stuff, but that's everything I know of.

Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Dec 12, 2016

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Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Very few Bendis comics have anything that could be called a "payoff".

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