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Rulebook Heavily posted:Huh. Not only does the Basic wizard have 3.x era Psion mechanics with Overchannel, but it even gives the damage a damage type so the wizard can resist the side effects of using it again. It says the damage pierces all resistance and immunity, so nope (first broken combo I was looking at) As for actual content i'm kinda ok with this edition, concentration spells limit the benefits of more powerful magic (see all the charm spells and powerful buffs) fighters can output decent damage and wizards get hosed if a stiff breeze hits them (every attack is a minimum dc 10 con check against any channeled spell, or double damage whichever is greater) Stormgale fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 23:26
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Gort posted:I'm still stunned by them making casting a cleric heal basically your entire go. There are extra actions heals (at 60% effectiveness If I remember correctly). In the fighters current state doing constant bull rushes (Sorry Shoves) as 1 attack seems to be a good way to spend time, advantage on attacks and locks the enemy down
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Jul 3, 2014 23:55
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Gort posted:Where are those? Yeah it's basically cut rate versions of Cure light and mass cure, rolling 1 dice size or one dice lower
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Jul 4, 2014 00:04
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Gort posted:Trouble is, those spells do like 6 HP healing, which is fine at low level. Then later on you've got Heal which is 70 HP healing, and there's no "bonus action" equivalent version you could use to heal without an action, so the problem's just delayed until later on. I'd like to look at monster damage output at that level, I want to see how likely the fighter can survive till post combat for heals (I personally think all the cure spells should be off action but maybe it's salvegable)
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Jul 4, 2014 00:33
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MonsterEnvy posted:That's something I fundamentally disagree with then. Challenge means they should be around the same threat level. It does not matter how they what they are built like so long as the CR fits them. Here is the problem, barring massive amounts of testing (and I mean massive) examining what each monster can do? How the gently caress does that number mean anything if you arent systematically building the monsters? (e.g. where each of their traits is derived) How do you compare in CR an ogre whose biggest combat tactic is run up to a dude and smack vs a caster with the plethora of possible options that brings
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Jul 21, 2014 02:20
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Well I poked Mearls on Twitter and Got this Regarding short rests: "What happens when you interrupt a short rest - lose benefit only if interruption is 10+ minutes in total during the hour" So it's a little better now I guess (Plus the expected Responses about 5 min rests being a module in the DMG)
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Jul 24, 2014 18:55
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Kai Tave posted:^^^Cool, thanks. Having actually played the system a few times it is neat, the way combat works is that each fighting style (martial or magic) is a tree or web you traverse only able to move to a point on the 2d tree directly horizontal or vertical with you, thus the powerful moves are locked behind a specific sequence of moves (and send you back to the start usually). The fact they are visual trees mean you can have a copy of each tree for who you are fighting so you can keep a rough idea of what they are doing. My favourite part is that you are functionally Immortal (can still be taken out of scenes but not dead or trapped without recourse) while you still have things you fight for in the world (think intimacies you have for things or people) making emotions powerful and having death or loss be an arc for both PC's and villains (if the gm deems them worth having such defences/ the book says having NPCs have this immunity being for major long running antagonists). If people want to hear more I could do some wrote ups from the copy I have for the chat thread or fatal and friends.
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Jul 26, 2014 16:55
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Kai Tave posted:Sure, go for it. In the meantime, I think I'll go ahead and grab a copy since it's on sale right now and it sounds way more interesting than Next. Ok someone pick a thread for me to talk about it in, i'll try and have some initial stuff up tomorrow
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Jul 27, 2014 03:34
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treeboy posted:i always liked the Baldur's Gate magic missile and it's never been replaced by any other. They have said they are "fixing" this (by allowing you 10 mins of activity or combat per short rest)
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Aug 1, 2014 18:54
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I love the level 17 of the assassin, they make a save or take double damage from your attack? Does this include sneak attack? IS this at all comparable to a level 17 wizard? (no) Edit: Also can a fighter multiattack with charger? (as it's a bonus action single attack) Stormgale fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 18:49
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Got my copy yesterday and reading through the book the best part to read me was the mounted combat feat, which has various benefits but one of them is "You gain advantage on all attack rolls on creatures smaller than your mount" which lead to me imagining a squad of rogues on horses (or enlarged horses) running around sneak attacking everything in sight.
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Aug 10, 2014 10:24
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Reading through the book the wizard seems to be outclassing the druid, specifically the transmutation, enchantment schools (with a notable bonus to necromancy for putting out a ton of damage with skeletons if you want). As for wizards getting to attack the prefered defense, the necromancy school has a 5th level spell that causes a con save that if they fail, you can inflict disadvantage to a targets wisdom save via a disease meaning you can hit a brainiac monster's weak con to make him vulnerable to whatever you do.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:11
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S.J. posted:Whether or not it's up to the DM is up to the DM. Wizards will implement a regional DMing system, where the complexity of your query and the relatively rules enforcement of the event will decide who adjudicates your ruling
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Aug 10, 2014 21:32
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More fun math facts about the edition: The Necromancer wizard and his skeleton squad (consisting of him spending 4 spells / day) can out damage even an action surging fighter each round, they can kill the adult blue dragon listed earlier in the thread (Whose XP is more than even a level 20 hard encounter) in just over 2 rounds and can output similar damage every round forever (while the fighters damage drops of without action surge)
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Aug 11, 2014 16:28
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treeboy: The only thing in the book about it being evil is "Though not all necromancers are evil, the forces they work with are considered taboo in many societies" under the school heading in the wizard class page area. ProfCirno: it gets even funnier because necromancers get really good buffs for their undead summons (which unlike conjuration are not concentration spells and are in fact just instant casts that follow you around), they give an automatic + wizard level HP boost to them and give their proficiency mod to the skeletons damage (Plus the obvious advantage of easy ways to give your skeleton bro's advantage) The damage difference gets even starker if the Wizard takes 1 hour at the beginning of each day to cast some spells for them then rest, use arcane recover to gain those slots back and does it again to get more, until the fighter gets a good magic sword the skeletons with basic bows (I didn't bother changing out their weapons for this, if I did the damage difference could be worse) do exactly as much damage as he does with a great sword (1d6+3+proficiency (which I set at 5 for a 16th level wizard)) vs 2d6+5 for the greatsword
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Aug 11, 2014 16:38
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Summoners are the worst thing to have in a party and people who play them in tabletop games, especially large group games, are royal assholes. Gere's the problem, spending an hour each morning doing that while your party does other minor stuff isn't a great inconvenience to the group, and isn't even necessary for the build, if you split out the spell slots (using say a 5th slot to gain 8 more skeleton bros then a 6th for 10 more) then just recovery as part of a normal daily routine you still inconvenience yourself less while putting out this damage
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Aug 11, 2014 16:44
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13hp average + Wizard level if he is a necromancer and yes there is nothing saying you cant just remake them (though its more efficient to keep them alive, you can re-command 4 undead per cast (+2 per level of spell above 3) instead of raising 1 corpse pile)
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Aug 11, 2014 17:02
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ProfessorProf posted:So how likely would that dragon's breath weapon be to wipe out half of those skeletons on its first action? Because it's a line you can easily spread them out and or give them resistance to lightning, it's average damage should take them out even with resistance though. Still just beating it in a surprise round takes it out. As for the dragon being a bad idea, It was a high AC monster the DPR of the skeletons and the fighter doesn't really change against other stuff
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Aug 11, 2014 17:19
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treeboy posted:the skeletons it creates, are they the standard MM/starter kit skeletons? It doesn't actually specify but I assume it's the stat block in the back of the PHB (They have a list of things people can transform into such as some animals and fey creatures + the skeletons and zombies)
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Aug 11, 2014 19:11
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treeboy posted:so strictly speaking skeletons are not immune to fear (unless there's a general rule about undead somewhere i'm not seeing). Also I'm assuming you'd have to equip your skeletons before hand, no rules on whether they can carry more than one weapon or not. You could assume they have both shortsword and bow I suppose More than 5 damage per hit as you add your proficiency bonus as a necromancer to all your skeletons damage, which is why you use the bows they come with (if you can start to talk about equipping them then we can upgun them to heavy crossbows), and yes this does require you to beat the dragon, however so long as the wizard beats the dragon he can throw an otto's irresistible dance on it, reducing its movement and attack capabilities until after it's first turn (The fighters DPR I was assuming also had advantage on attack rolls from the dance). You also add your wizard level to the Hp of the skeletons so with average 14x2 = 28 damage at level 16 your skeletons survive 1 wing burst on average (and he can't do two as it uses 2/3 legendary actions) My point isn't that skeletons are amazing, it's that they are with minimal spell investment from the wizard, better than a fighter on his action surge turn at doing damage which they always do
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Aug 11, 2014 19:26
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treeboy posted:edit: ^^^ i don't know, i only have stat blocks not the PHB, and it doesnt say anything about immunities to fear/charm in the monster stats And the dragon is just as likely to notice the fighter in full plate approaching (It has a really good perception) and chew his rear end out with DPR before he can kill it, it takes him like 5 rounds to kill the thing with his Damage per round, the skeletons: Do More damage for less investment (remember I Was showing DPR of 20, which is again, 4 spells of the wizard at the beginning of the day) is harder to completely remove from the fight, and the fear doesn't even matter so long as you can make the dragon cause advantage (which a wizard can with no save)
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Aug 11, 2014 19:38
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Ok so a quick update on skeleton 101: The wizard can command infinite skeletons under his control with his bonus action, so ordering them around to surround the dragon at max range with bowfire isn't hard The skeletons persist until destroyed, every 24 hours the wizards must recast the spell (At a more efficient rate) to control them (1 spell controls 3 skeletons at a 3rd level slot, +2 for each slot after that) Skeletons are armed with bows and swords, and gain + the Proficiency of the necromancer to damage and + Summoning necromancers wizard level as HP You can easily give them advantage with otto's irresistible dance, which gives you at least 1 set of actions of pure advantage because the save can only be forced by the dragon spending an action action to try (which he will auto succeed but still, he didn't attack that round)# Again, I haven't ever talked about a 100 skeleton army, 4 spell slots for 20 skeletons is really cheap, bumping that up to 40 only takes 3 more spell slots, My personal method would be wake up bright and early, cast control spells, then short rest to use arcane recovery to regen some slots, run around with your army
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Aug 11, 2014 21:10
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The skeleton thing does show how powerful a fighter is, 2 level 3 spells and 2 level 4 spells / day
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Aug 11, 2014 21:18
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treeboy posted:I don't know if they purposefully planned for this potential to exist, but it's hardly effective, though admittedly pretty funny. Fun fact: The dragon physically cannot surprise the party in it's own layer, so long as they believe it is still waiting for them Even if it does, it's only attack to murder the skeleton army is a line attack, all the wizard has to do is have the skeletons hide around a corner then pop out when needed (even if they take up space they can do this by firing through eachothers squares/area they can draw LoS this way) All of your plans also completely bone a fighter trying to kill him too just as an FYI, which makes this comparison all the more apt Also if I really assume the dragon is going to throw a lightning breath my way I can easily block with force spells to just wait it out then in one turn volley and bring my shield back up Edit: An addendum, transmuters do not grant eternal life, they grant youth until you die.
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Aug 11, 2014 22:18
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seebs posted:Okay, assume he has the 108 skeletons available to use to animate. At that point, great, he's got a huge supply of skeletons... now what? He's got no higher level spells (because he blew them on animating his army), and skeletons are not super powerful, and they are light on things like maneuverability. Do they have decent to-hit numbers? Remember this edition has flatter math where a 19 ac( what the adult blue dragon has) is very rare, in all of my skeleton assessment (with 20) The Wizard just threw otto's irresistible dance to give all the skeleton's advantage (a 6th level spell btw), assuming you want to 1 shot a dragon 44 skeletons roughly works out as 2 3rd 2 4th 3 5th level spells, which you can do in one day with an 8 hour rest and 1 hour to arcane recovery the lost slots back to you, no need to double rest, then you make the dragon dance with a readied action on all the skeletons to fire then boom.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:22
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Kai Tave posted:And of course there are ways to try and mitigate this...interrupting long rests, enforcing strict deadlines to go kill Lord Evilbad, etc...but once again, this is just another example of how things like "can summon a skeleton army" winds up warping how the GM runs the game around that in an attempt to keep things on an even keel. My favorite thing about this strategy is the wizard can seal himself in a box before sleeping for 8 hours and let his skeleton army defend him
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Aug 11, 2014 23:27
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treeboy posted:Or the players exercise even a modicum of sensibility and recognize perhaps brute forcing your way through encounters has unintended consequences outside of DM dickery. My solution wasn't "poo poo gotta FIX THIS" it was "that's not nearly as effective as you'd think it would be because <reasonable intelligent creature behavior>" and some pretty breezy approaches to resting rules and enemy abilities. I find it funny how you keep bringing saying this is absurd, but seriously, 4 spells dude to make 20 skeletons doesn't seem like much for a level 16 wizard to do... gently caress if that really is that absurd why is it an explicit option for me to do?
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Aug 12, 2014 02:02
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treeboy posted:nope, just absolutely boggled at the extents to which people go to prove it's The Worst. Hey you going to stop ignoring me? Is 20 skeleton archers that overpowered or bending the game? Edit: As for your corridor + lightning breath There are at least 3 ways off the top of my head to advance into that corridor without the dragon able to do poo poo to the skeleton army
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Aug 12, 2014 02:05
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So I got to sleep wakeup and we get like 100 posts of skeleton Chat, now for an addition to this discussion: If you want a mythical figure who fights and does awesome stuff in 5e Which class should you play? ((It's the warlock)) ((They make really good fighting types due to pact weapon + all the stuff they can throw on it)) ((Caster supremacy))
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Aug 12, 2014 10:40
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I'm gonna post this every time it comes up, I don't need an army to break the game, I need 20 skeletons to replace the fighter in every meaningful sense if the use, thats 4 spells / day to have a better fighter Edit: Seriously getting tired of every argument about this being unreasonable imagines the extreme 100 skeleton solution here, the game is unbalanced without taking it to the maxim
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Aug 12, 2014 12:05
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SirFozzie posted:It's called imagination. Look into it. And using my imagination my 20 skeletons can revolutionise the economy of a small farm community, acting as free messengers, labourers (this works both ways) AND AGAIN (because apparently everyone arguing this is loving blind) I don't need 100 skeletons or 50 or 40, I need 4 spells worth, 20 of them, to make a better: Damage dealer and Defender (They can literally bodyblock for me) than the fighter
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Aug 12, 2014 12:39
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treeboy posted:I almost exclusively play martial characters actually. I generally don't care for casters, I find them pretty boring and too squishy for my liking, though in one of the Next playtests I ran a Mad-Professor-esque wizard who was convinced his party was actually a group of graduate students assisting him in his research of magical mud, it was a little wacky, but fun. I'm pretty sure an abjuration or hell even any wizard with any level of sense could probably tank more damage than a fighter except maybe at level 1 or 2
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Aug 12, 2014 14:12
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Kai Tave posted:I'm eagerly awaiting the first big 3rd party Next campaign setting that takes the Animate Dead thing to its verisimilitudinal extreme. They could call it Boned Lands or something and it's the fantasy game you know and love but with a twist. The twist is skeletons. Skeleton workers, skeleton soldiers, an entirely skeleton economy. Thirty pages of new skeleton-focused spells, 15 skeletal magic items, new backgrounds include Bonelord and Cleromancer. I'm waiting for the themed action figures, the skeleton squad to be honest.
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Aug 12, 2014 23:29
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seebs posted:Giving them advantage doesn't ensure that they have advantage; it just ensures that they don't have disadvantage. If something can impose disadvantage on their rolls, that just balances out. Irresistible dance is a 6th level spell, so if you're casting it, you should be at least one spell down from your nominal cap of skeletons. Also it's a 6th level spell with a 30' range, and the dragon's got pretty decent senses, including blindsight to 60'. I'll repeat again: I can put a massive dent in a dragon with 5 spells 4 to summon skeletons, if I used 8 spells total I could 1 round it before the dragon could even hope to put disadvantage on me or my skeleton bro's Just to clarify that is 8 spells of my 18 (plus 16 spell levels of arcane recovery) and that dragon is dead or terrified of me apparently, and at level 16 buying 44 shortbows or however many isn't exactly a big expense?
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Aug 12, 2014 23:39
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Jack the Lad posted:For reference, 15 Skeletons summoned by a level 16 Necromancer will do the same DPR to the dragon as a level 16 Fighter in round 1, when he uses Action Surge to make 6 attacks. For a fun fact, look up the new basic DMG for the ghoul, the necromancer wizard can waste a 6th level spell slot creating 3 of those instead of More skeletons. Also when you use a bonus action to command the skeletons you explicitly decide how they move and what actions they will take, so yes you can organise your archer squad however you like: Including making them ready, so if you wished you could easily use a wall of force to setup an invulnerable firing line that the dragon can't touch with his breath, then remove it and your skeleton squad instantly fires
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Aug 13, 2014 00:48
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AlphaDog posted:Not skeleton chat or wizard chat this time, sorry. The frog also needs to be there for the druid to turn into it 
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Aug 13, 2014 00:58
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AlphaDog posted:Speaking of Swarm entries, it's awesome they are included. I still can't figure out why "Rat Swarm" and "Rat" are two different entries, or why "rat" (or bat, or lizard, or...) need their own entries at all. If the CR is zero, maybe don't loving include it in the MONSTER manual. Or if you really must, put it under a "vermin" entry and be done. Look, an actual rat swarm is a terrifying thing, and is probably even a worrying thing to face even if your name is "something The Mighty". A single rat? A single bat? Really? CR0 monsters need to exist by their own rules so the druid can turn into them, a druid couldn't simple be turn into an animal and do stuff, it needs to be: TURN INTO THIS SPECIFIC ANIMAL
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Aug 13, 2014 11:51
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Payndz posted:RAW, doesn't Animate Dead only allow you to create at most 13 skeletons at once, not 40+? You get two extra per level of spell slot used, not the caster's actual level. So if you cast it from your L9 spell slot that's your initial one skeleton, plus two for each of the six slot levels above 3rd. (Arcane Recovery lets you create another 13 that day, I guess, assuming you're L18 or higher.) The spell dosent have to be maintained, you cast it and the skeletons exist forever (till they get undeaded by damage) every day you can recast the spell at a more efficient way to maintain control of them (base 4 +2 / level above third) so you can control 20 skeletons with 2 3rd level slots and 2 4th level (4+4+6+6)
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Aug 13, 2014 16:14
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Can't they also just outrange it with their bows
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Aug 14, 2014 00:29
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Winson_Paine posted:mods change the thread title to D&D NEXT: Welcome to the Bone zone Do this instead
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Aug 14, 2014 10:55
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