There is only one thing that matters and it is Jesus Christ

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TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie, why should I believe you about Catholicism when you haven't posted any evidence to support it that can't be matched by other religions? Why are the Pope's revelations better than Muhammad's or the Dali Lama's?

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 22:47

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 00:52

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

I think that all religions come from a spiritual knowledge of God, but that Christianity is the only religion that understands Him fully, and that any rational person of a spiritual persuasion will, in their investigations, come to recognize Christianity.

Nearly every other religion I've heard of makes a similar claim. What makes your claim special, other than declaring "I'm right, deal with it. :smug:

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 17:40

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

Dude, this is D&D. People here hate Catholicism and Christianity. I knew this going in. I didn't expect a warm or even-handed response, and it's no surprise that people ended up attacking me. This is entirely what I expected.

What I am interested in doing is gaining practice and skill in arguing for the faith, rebutting common critiques, and also serving as a guideline for others, because face it, fellow Christians, the hippie-dippie approach is not working, nor is it the approach of Christ. Leave the pastoral stuff to the Pope, it's up to us to educate people and hold the line. Educate yourself on orthodox teachings, don't apologize, and speak with the Spirit. These guys and their little theories are no match for the Truth. Atheists love to make fools of themselves, just give them the rope.

I think some people, in realizing that the faith can be competently held and defended, might have their views changed. I am also interested in testing the current tolerance levels of the authorities towards traditional Christian ideas. Honestly, it's more welcoming than I expected on that front.

So you were lying to us then. You made the thread to try to convert people to Catholicism, but a priori decided everyone would hate you for posting about Jesus, thereby absolving you and justifying your being an rear end in a top hat?

Next time try being honest with yourself and honest with us, and you'll have a much more productive discussion.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2014 19:29

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Free will is a bullshit concept so people who preach universal compassion get to be assholes to people who they deem 'deserve it'.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2014 17:38

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Remember, murdering and torturing people isn't wrong because people don't deserve to be murdered/tortured, because they very well do deserve that and worse.

You should refrain from killing and torturing because only God deserves the sublime thrill of murdering and torturing.

Discuss.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2014 02:10

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

Actually, his views are supremely normal from anyone who's ever been in a breakup! I don't know how all of you guys manage to swallow that part of yourselves -- maybe you'd never been betrayed, or something, I don't know. But your callous rejection of everyone's pain is, of course, totally evil!

I've been through a few breakups, and it wasn't too awful after a couple days. It didn't work out, let it go, go chill with some friends and maybe meet some new people!

This process is much, much easier when you aren't a ball of white-hot self righteous entitled rage though, so I can understand why you think it's hard. If you let go of your apparent need to judge everything and everyone (which most religions advise against anyway), life becomes so much easier!

# ¿ Dec 22, 2014 19:48

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

Lol, wow, a couple days? You must have really been in love with her!

Only people who have ever actually been in love with someone and dumped by them need talk about the very obvious and universal pain of it, especially when they've been "leading you on" (Yes! that is the correct phrase to describe it!) into thinking they are interested in the same sort of thing. Leading you on in ways such as, having sex with you, saying they love you, talking about future plans, etc. only to dump you. That can cause trust issues! And that's why, kids, it's morally imperative that you only pursue relationships with people you potentially want to marry!

Again: It happens to women too.

So you were betrayed? Good thing you found out before you signed the paperwork! The person you loved didn't actually exist then, it was a show to get something from you, and you escaped before they could get more.

I'm also not one to dwell on things that I can do nothing about, and it's helped me a ton in life. Try it!

# ¿ Dec 22, 2014 20:08

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

logosanatic posted:

gently caress I don't know, and neither do you, nor can you know you primitive monkey you.

As long as nothing horrifying happens to you, the unspeakable horrors that happen to others are just some form of 11th dimensional chess that God plays and we can't understand, and their suffering doesn't matter.

# ¿ Jan 30, 2015 21:46

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

Yeah, that's a good point, since some people should be treated fundamentally differently than others.

No. Everyone deserves Hell, nobody has ever earned less than an eternity of torture.

When you hurt someone, you're not offending them. Even if you kill them slowly with a knife you're doing less than they deserve, but you're not righteous in doing it. You're offending God, who is the only being in the cosmos who can distribute justice, with that justice taking the form of an eternity suffering God's full wrath.

If God decides to not distribute justice, then that's his problem, but don't fool yourself into thinking there's anyone who's ever lived that doesn't deserve an eternity of suffering.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2015 19:18

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Ocrassus posted:

Lex talionis is a really dumb thing to subscribe to if your end goal is to reduce the net suffering of humanity. It A - Is not nearly as efficient as more rehabilitative methods at preventing offence and reoffence, B - Causes suffering for its own sake rather than to be of instrumental value (which is what I basically describe as pure evil) and C - Brutalises society to the point where we become accustomed to anger and revenge being an adequate response to a crime rather than an appeal to a rational sense of justice.

All humanity deserves to suffer, and making people's lives better is a lovely goal.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2015 19:32

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

"Hell is other people." - Jean luc Picard

Hell is full divine wrath, more than even the most sadistic person or group of people can devise, and there has never been anyone who didn't deserve it.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2015 19:52

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

Aside for the two exceptions I mentioned, it is a possibility, but not a certainty.

Although the Church does not claim to otherwise know who individually goes to Heaven or Hell, it is generally assumed that all of those marked Saints are in Heaven, and we pray for the souls of all sinners regardless of their religious affiliation or the severity of their evil deeds.

The true (actual, real) teaching on salvation, not the bogus one that some hippie came up with while stoned, the unassailable one that has been dogmatically defined in ancient times and is the only acceptable position to be held by someone going around calling himself Catholic, or Christian for that matter, is that people who die in their sin go to Hell, and those who repent can be saved.

Accepting one's death and disappearance is certainly a relatively comfortable way to live, as all you need to do is drink yourself to death, wasting away the hours with complete indifference, as nothing will change the outcome that is death, and in the end the only sensible position is to end your life painlessly via suicide.

You're right that by comparison religion is much more mentally taxing and it actually pressures you heavily to become a better person and takes self-destruction off the table.

Do you really think you can escape justice with some bullshit magic words? Why do you insist it's possible to escape your just reward by groveling sufficiently? Humans are sin incarnate, by being not-god all we do is sinful. Every breath and action we take falls short of God's glory, from giving a man food to killing him slowly is equally sinful.

There is no salvation, no escape.

You will die and go to Hell regardless of what you do, same as everyone else.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2015 00:06

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

steinrokkan posted:

Guy, your previous posting in D&D was

Are you an anti-kyrie troll, or are you suffering from brain damage?

I can buy that we were all created by some great deity and we messed things up earning eternal damnation for our entire species, but having a son and sacrificing him seemingly randomly thereby allowing us to escape justice? I don't buy that. Either we're subject to justice or we're not.

Either that or there is no God and us and us alone are responsible for our actions, but I doubt Kyrie can be convinced of that, so I'll accept his premises as much as I can while ITT.

Besides, universal hatred and damnation seems to explain the thoughts and behavior of religious extremists anyway.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2015 00:23

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

I was thinking just now about quiet reflection. I was enjoying a simple meal, some minestrone with bread and butter. As is my custom, I gave a nice long prayer before my dinner meal. I am always shocked at how these prayers can adjust my mindset and completely change my views on things. Namely, when I find myself listing my sins, listing what I'm grateful for, and who I want to pray for -- it's like everything completely comes to light. Whoever I had something against, it fades away as I pray for their well being. Whatever complaints I had about my life disappear as I recount my blessings and see just how good I have it. And however haughty I have been, my sins all laid before me, reminds me just how fortunate I am that God puts up with me.

Sometimes, we need to spend some extended time with God in periods of self-criticism. It is good to go home, skip dinner and fast, to lie in bed and to just think and pray. Go over your fears one by one; remember that the only meaningful fear is the fear of God himself.

It is in these moments of mental and spiritual difficulty, the poverty of spirit, that atheists are really at a loss. They cannot commune with God, so instead they commune with the abyss; and the abyss tells them, "everything is meaningless; your life is horrible; you will never be forgiven or understood; the rest of your life will be pain and struggle; you will always be lonely no matter who you are around" and so on. This is hardly a comforting voice, nor a constructive one.

Next time you find yourself in absolute misery, or if not that, just contemplative, think about prayer. You might be surprised how effectively it works to mold your mind in a constructive direction, and relieve your anxieties.

You're fooling yourself if you think you can influence God in any way shape or form. You have sinned, and you cannot escape your just fate. No amount of groveling saved the Nazis from Allied justice, and no amount of groveling will save you from Divine justice.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2015 15:13

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Broccoli Cat posted:

Does anyone know if the God of the bible is the all-knowing creator of all things, past, present, and future?

I mean, is there no single moment God does not know and did not create, from the dawn of time to its end?

And somehow we can act and choose freely in an absolutely determined world.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 16:30

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

Listen, let's go easy on old Joe. Which of us, in our hearts, isn't a mass-murderer? Give the person on the street the power, and they'd kill millions, for sure. It's human nature to be that way.

The ones you want to look out for are the ones who claim they're all peaceful and loving, because they're pretending they're something they're not. Deep down they want to murder, they want to do evil acts, etc. I much more respect a person who comes out and just says the evil that is in their heart.

One thing I like about the Catholic Church in particular is the whole "corruption" narrative. Protestants, and atheists, they say that the church started out all sweet as daffodils and then political reality set them out into genociding heretics and using torture to prompt confessions and burning people at the stake and sexual impropriety and indoctrination and psychological abuse and doing ethnic cleansing and all these other things that everyone does. But that's just human nature, you try splitting from it to restore the "pure" kind-hearted self and before you know it you're engaging in pogroms of undesirables.

The only difference between Joe and the man on the street is that Joe decided to carry out his sick vision whereas you and I are content to bitch about it -- which is really much healthier, but it also means we're subject to the Joes of the world. And to be a Joe, you know, you've got to take a lot of risks. A lot of people died, were humiliated, tortured etc. because they wanted to be like Joe. It's like winning the lottery. I'm too lazy, too afraid of pain for that. I'll take private fantasies, drunken venting, and apologizing to God for my evil heart.

I don't think Kyrie is projecting so much as he's justifying his bad behavior to other people, as nobody cares if you're an rear end in a top hat to an rear end in a top hat. Just because everyone deserved Hell doesn't justify your being a jerk.

"So what if I cut that guy off, he'd kill me if given the chance! He deserves far worse than getting cut off in traffic!"

# ¿ Apr 27, 2015 20:40

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Miltank posted:

It would be very bad news if it wasn't for the fact that heaven and earth will be remade and every wrong will be righted.

Cold comfort when everything recognizable about us will be either obliterated entirely or suffering God's full wrath in Hell.

Everything that makes us human is detestable to God.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2015 21:41

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Miltank posted:

Luckily, Jesus is the one who will judge us. He will be merciful to the weak and dreadful to the wicked.

I completely disagree with your second point.

There is no one who deserves mercy, everyone who has ever lived deserves Hell.

Our humanity and our not being parts of God already makes us wicked. Telling people that they can get forgiveness is like buying needles for a heroin addict; it may make people feel better in the meantime, but it's ultimately a harmful act, just like every other conceivable human act.

We're all damned. Deal with it.

# ¿ May 1, 2015 01:43

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Bear in mind you're debating with a literal Christian Fascist here, he just likes it because it's tyrannical, not because it's supposedly good.

BTW Kyrie, psychically mutilating yourself trying to find some piece of yourself that God likes is fruitless, because there is nothing good in you (or anyone else for that matter). He'll send you to Hell no matter what you do unless He's arbitrarily decided he wants your sinful rear end in Heaven.

# ¿ May 6, 2015 14:23

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

In other news, the Pew Research Center has released their religious landscape study results, and I found the results interesting.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

TL;DR: Religiously unaffiliated populations are exploding, non-Christian groups are growing but still small, and every non-evangelical Christian group is shrinking. Evangelicals are growing a bit in an absolute sense, mostly from other Christians switching to Evangelical Christianity, but they've shrunk a bit as a percentage of the US population.

# ¿ May 12, 2015 16:38

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

This may be a matter of taste, but I rather prefer the timeless narrative in which good triumphs, and there is a moral, as I find it uplifting. You might desire some dreary ambiguous nihilistic landscape or whatever, which is perhaps more reflective of your approach to life

So you prefer a comfortable lie to an uncomfortable reality?

# ¿ May 13, 2015 19:27

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

LookingGodIntheEye posted:

This statement's been bouncing around in my head for a while now, and I can't seem to figure out if it's true or not. I know this comment was not addressed to me, but I feel like I sometimes have a similar cynical mindset about people as CoC and kyrie do, except I don't externalize it onto some ghost of the self I call a God, but rather into social darwinism and Nietzschean, might-is-right cut-throat tendencies. Like seeing other people as being only your competitors or enemies in a Hobbesian struggle for power, out to screw you over at the first chance or like this.
I think for those who have problems understanding and dealing with life, set "rules" about the way the world works, even if they're totally rear end-backwards, provide relief to people who cannot properly cope with issues in their life. I think we all do that to some extent, especially when we're young (like me) and fill our voids of experience with prejudices and intuitions.
The problem with this externalization is that you stop realizing that this externalization was made by you and you begin to treat it as objective truth, and you can't really begin to understand and question who you are as a person because you're attributing these pathological aspects of your personality to some outside deity or ideology, kind of like how some psychopaths might attribute the heinous acts they commit to somebody else or some force beyond their control.
Going back to your original statement, I don't know if the way to break this mindset is to look into yourself first ("love yourself") or force yourself to see people in a different light first ('love others").

Holy poo poo that describes me exactly! Does anyone else know a way out without interacting with other people? Generally I shut down and wait it out, but that ain't healthy. On an intellectual level I understand human society is more about cooperation than competition, but in my gut I 'know' that everything I have is taken from someone else.

The last thing I'd want is to visit Kyrie's priest or one of the clergy from my hometown and have him tell me God hates everyone too, so it's okay!

# ¿ Jun 9, 2015 16:23

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Miltank posted:

One of the most puzzling questions of modern Christianity is, 'where do people living the western consumerist lifestyle fit into the Kingdom of Heaven?

We can work to consume less stuff, as most of your stuff doesn't make you happy anyway (general, not specific you). You can't help being a global 1%er unless you live on the brink of starvation, and I find feeling guilty about having my basic needs met is counterproductive.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2015 00:10

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

Hmm... Not laughing. Sorry.

Wait, I've heard this rant before, hold on....

George Orwell posted:

�How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?�

Winston thought. �By making him suffer�, he said.

�Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery is torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but MORE merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress towards more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy � everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed.�

Copy/replace Church and God for Big Brother and God where appropriate.

If I were a betting guy, I'd be willing to bet you don't believe in God at all. The Catholic Church is only a vehicle for the oppression you seek to inflict and suffer from, and unlike Orwell's Big Brother they pretend it's righteous. After all sadism eventually gets boring, but the thirst for righteousness can never be quenched.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2015 02:42

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Kyrie eleison posted:

Right... because the Church is actively trying to dismantle all traditional values.

You do want to rip apart all non-Catholic institutions and groups of people though, so yes you do want to dismantle all traditional values that aren't Catholic.

Man I gotta read 1984 again, it's been a while.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2015 03:37

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 00:52

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

Enophos posted:

Really late to the discussion, but I have to dispute this. I am Jewish but went to a Catholic University, with mandatory study of the New Testament each semester. I have read the entire Christian Bible many times, but do not see a strong connection between the "Old Testament," (Jewish Torah and Tanakh) and the "New Testament." One of the things I respected the most about my University was that we studied the inconsistencies among the Four Gospels of the New Testament and the fact that they were written 200 - 300 years after the alleged time of Jesus. I understand Christianity as an Apocalyptic Religion primarily based against the Roman domination of Judea. Once the Roman Emperor Constantine made it the official Religion of Rome, it changed - one of the greatest shifts was blaming the Jews for Jesus's death instead of the original blame on the Romans. The Gospel of Matthew, the least connected to the other 3, states the Jews gathered at Pontius Pilates's decision said 'His blood is on us and on our children' - as if this could justify centuries of persecution of the Jews by Christians. How could a small group of any Religion take on the crime of "Deicide" onto the whole Religion - however, this was used against Jews up to the 18th and 19th centuries!

The Papacy, and the many pagan traditions incorporated into the Religion from Easter (rabbits and eggs being fertility symbols and a direct replacement on the calender to Passover) to Christmas (the Roman Saturnalia, including pagan celebrations involving pine trees and gifts) were added after the Gospels. Judaism does not have an explicit heaven or hell, life on earth is most important. Christianity rewards belief with everlasting pleasure in heaven or eternal punishment in hell with a Judgement Day where the Earth will be destroyed. The "Old Testament" does not suggest that G-D hates or is ashamed of Creation - so why would it be destroyed? I cannot see this as a legitimate successor to Judaism. I have never met a Christan who followed the doctrines of "turn the other cheek," "love thy enemy," and "the meek shall inherit the earth." Judaism has no such precepts, only asking that we respect all Humans as part of G-D's creation. Judaism is only a Religion for the Jews - all people can reach and have a relationship with G-D. Jews have a unique relationship with G-D, but it is no better than any other peoples'. This is why Judaism doesn't try to convert people unlike it's "successor" Christianity.

Don't take OP's religion too seriously; it's just a means to punish himself and other people. To him (as far as I can tell), it's not "How to Become a Better Person, the Book" it's "Why You and Everyone Like You Goes to Hell and There's Nothing You Can Do About It".

# ¿ Jul 9, 2015 14:20

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