Dead Reckoning posted:

hakimashou posted:

Indians are brown too, and well, African-Americans, they're black!

And yet, non-violent resistance to their white oppressors worked for both of them.

hakimashou posted:

Really? That compares to jim crow, segregation, lynching etc how?

hakimashou posted:

I do find it awfully hard though, considering the facts of history, to see the foundation of Israel as some abstract example of "white colonization." There is a point where generalized abstractions don't quite work in certain circumstances.

Disinterested posted:

Well until then why don't we hold off on the played, insane Nazi metaphors.

Disinterested posted:

Perhaps the only weapon in the arsenal of people who want to prevent genocide isn't hamfisted historical equivalence? Nazi comparisons are not helpful to discussions like these and even less helpful in the academy and in the media at large because they unnecessarily cloud, clutter, and render controversial arguments that should aim to be objective and clear.

Disinterested posted:

I think that's an appropriate view on balance. My point aside from the aptness of the Nazi thing though is that it is simply never worth invoking the Nazi's in a discussion of Israel for any reason because, regardless of the content of your argument, you are then having a discussion about the appropriateness of that comparison instead of about the situation in Israel. Particularly since historic definitions of anti-Semitism have explicitly included comparisons of Israel with Nazi Germany.

It is simply a dumb thing to do if you are interested in furthering the discourse on the subject in a broader context because it's a great way to give your opponent free ammunition and turn the whole argument in to white noise.

I have watched this happen on panel debates and in the press on this subject a lot.

quote:

Enough with the oblique references… words have meanings… the entire Palestinian people is the enemy… they are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers… otherwise, more little snakes will be raised…

quote:

Enough with the oblique references… words have meanings… the entire Jewish people is the enemy… they are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers… otherwise, more little snakes will be raised…

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

Because these two situations are exactly the same with no differences whatsoever between them.

Ultramega posted:

I think a lot of you are warping darkcrawler's original points in order to construct an argument. Has the dialogue in this thread receded to such a level that now we're eating our own just in order to prove a loving point? I'm pretty sure we can all agree the nakba was an extremely hosed up thing and that victims should be given some form of reparation! But can you realistically picture a scene in today's geopolitical climate where israel has to give in to ANY major demands from the palestinian diaspora regarding a just question to the refugees and children of refugees? It's just cruel to even entertain that option in a serious negotiation when you know full well the israelis have not come to the table in good faith.

TheImmigrant posted:

And every one of Israel's neighbors has attacked it. I agree that Israeli public opinion and politics are shifting hard to the right, but as you note, these things don't happen in a vacuum.

-Troika- posted:

It's not. The unstated bit behind the "Israel should be destroyed" opinions generally is "and all the non-Palestinians in it should be killed to make room". You know those Al Aqsa brigade gangtags that some older posters have? Some of those arn't ironic, in any way, shape, or form.

Fortunately most of the more extreme anti-Israel posters got flushed out when LF was crushed.

Triple Elation posted:

I did not literally mean what I posted. I thought that since people in this thread seem to simultaneously, unironically believe everything I wrote there, and that it all adds up to a rather extraordinary claim of the sort that requires extraordinary evidence, that it was worth highlighting to see the response. The response was "well ok, it must be that Israelis have lost all semblance of human morality because of the draft and their leisure first-world lifestyle and the fact that they're winning the conflict and it got to their head". Now I know one more thing that I didn't before about what advocates involved with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict believe.

The Insect Court posted:

Do you think Palestinians are bad people because Palestinian terrorists have murdered "literally" score of innocent Israeli civilians? Do you consider it morally acceptable if others hold that belief?

My Imaginary GF posted:

I'm sure that it feels empowering for Palestinians to vote for Hamas; after all, Hamas promises the world, and has a reliable tendency to blame jews when Hamas is unable to deliver, while conveniently disappearing anyone in Gaza who would stand up to their antisemitic platform.

The Insect Court posted:

Contrari-contrariwise, the point of demanding a non-Israeli Jewish-American prove that he's "one of the good ones" by denouncing Israel is to turn Jews into pariahs.

The Insect Court posted:

When BDSers single out a performer because he is a Jew and demand of him a written statement or video appearance where he condemns Israel and Zionism it is staggeringly, inarguably antisemitic.

To absurdly suggest otherwise is to descend deep into "it's not racism, it's race realism" territory.

If Cat Stevens were singled out and forced to issue a strident condemnation of Muslim violence before being allowed to perform at a festival, it would sure as poo poo be islamophobic and so would anybody defending that move.

Lady Morgaga posted:

I think its hard to separate I/P conflict from history surrounding it. Eventually unlike BDS movement he didnt claim to have all the right answers. His sin apparently was saying a non-sequitur.

I think there are less valid answers to questions about secret cabal of Jews then to general questions about I/P conflict. Some people in D&D might disagree with me.

The Insect Court posted:

And besides, if you want a meaningful thought experiment here, the analogy isn't about race it's about the reaction if a performer of Palestinian ancestry was singled out and told to issue a public statement recognizing the right of Israel to exist as a Zionist state and to engage in self-defense. It's pretty clear what the result would be. The same people shrugging at a Jewish artist being attacked as a "lover of Israel" and a "Zionist" would be tearing their hair out.

The Insect Court posted:

Likewise, I would find 'ironic racism' like this just as objectionable if it were gross anti-Arab racism rather than antisemitism. I believe it's important to be intellectually consistent in matters like this.

My Imaginary GF posted:

He was asked a question he could never answer satisfactory to the organizers solely because Matisyahu is a Jewish raeggae performer.

That's antisemitism, an act which you are attempting to justify. Justifying antisemitism is antisemitic.

Ultramega posted:

I doubt he ~hates~ palestinians, dude. That's, to be fair, putting words in his mouth. All he's said with certainty is that palestine was never a country, the mavi marmara crew brought molotovs and weapons with them and that palestinians don't deserve self-determination.

My Imaginary GF posted:

Why should a non-Israeli Jew have to acknowledge arab issues in order to have gainful employment in the developed world?

My Imaginary GF posted:

Jewish identity wasn't created out of opposition to the rights of Jews to own and retain the property which they had legitimately and validly acquired through their self-determination and hard endeavours. Palestinian identity did not exist at the founding of the Jewish state; Jordanian and Egyptian identity, in addition to an undercurrent of antisemitic pan-arabism, did.

My Imaginary GF posted:

What motivated Matisyahu to make such statements, Broken Mind? His Jewish faith.

BDS is an antisemitic hate group and deserves to be treated as such. This Matis conflagration is only the beginning of their campaign of hatred. We must call BDS before a special committee of Congress on antisemitism in America and the world so that BDS can face appropriate oversight for its hateful actions.

The Insect Court posted:

Laughable. The idea that Jews in Israel are just a bunch of European colonists who should be pressured to leave is hardly an uncommon one in the BDS-style extreme of anti-Zionism.

Was Helen Thomas an antisemite? Are you going to affirm your belief in the legitimacy of Zionism, by definition a belief in the establishment of a Jewish homeland? Will you call yourself an antisemite if you don't?

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Maybe it's hard because it's wrong. And maybe ostracizing people because you disapprove of the policies of the country they live in is wrong. Maybe there are moral standards that are higher and wider than you being focused on the bad policies of this one Middle-Eastern country and how to most effectively show your disdain of it.

Maybe this is time to reflect about the unhealthy fixation you have with punishing every Israeli for Israel's horrible sins. A teachable moment, if you will. Just a thought.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

PACBI seem to think that those methods are inappropriate. Let me quote their argument:

'This approach of targeting institutions and not individuals differs from the cultural boycott movement against apartheid South Africa, which targeted individuals and institutions alike. This is not because individual Israeli artists or academics tend to be more progressive or opposed to injustice than the rest of society, as often mistakenly assumed or falsely argued without any evidence, but because we are opposed on principle to political testing and “blacklisting,” both forms of McCarthyism that the BDS movement categorically rejects.'

Why is your hatred more extreme than that of a Palestinian organization dedicated to sanction it until it adheres to international law and stops oppressing Palestinians? What are your principles?

ETA: I ask you the same thing, uninterrupted.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

No individual Israeli can single-handedly change Israeli policy, and the film festival did not even ask the film-maker what party he voted for.


In what way is refraining from barring individuals who are Israeli citizens from taking part in an event "fund[ing] the murderous Israeli regime"?

Tatum Girlparts posted:

What does this even mean? Literally force Israelis to stay in Israel? Bar them from entering other countries? Silence them if they speak outside Israel?

What are they supposed to do, start a loving coup? Why are you holding left wing pro-Palestinian Israelis as guilty as far right zionists?

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Maybe other people are interested in playing oppression Olympics with you. Me, I am asking whether the sanction is legitimate and others also ask whether it will be effective. None of your posts have touched on either of these, the actual relevant aspects of policy.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

We are discussing an event rejecting an Israeli film-maker due to his national origins, which is discrimination. People and institutions are sometimes allowed to be bigots, but should they? I don't think so. I could use my freedom of association to call on other people to boycott the Norwegian institution for being racist. Because of an action they performed, not because they are Norwegian. See the difference?


There is no evidence that cultural sanctions against individuals were what broke South Africa. And there is no evidence that individual sanctions are working in the Israeli case. As I said, the more likely scenario seems to me to be that people will see this as evidence of European antisemitism, and there are plenty enough cultural creators and events in Israel. If you think making Israelis more insular will help Palestinians, well, I'd like to see arguments to that effect.

Finally, as I showed before, PACBI, the leading, Palestinian-run BDS organization is against individual boycotts as McCarthyist. It's pretty rich of you to accuse me of not treating Palestinians as real people and then ignoring what real Palestinian organizations are saying.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

If you discriminate according to national origins then you are a bigot. Plain and simple.

If you attack institutions and government agencies for policies they conduct, that applies pressure without the bigotry. That is why, I imagine, BDS supports the latter, rather than the former. Years of bigotry against Israelis by Palestinian organizations and soi-disant pro-Palestinian intelligentsia, in which they refused to work or talk to any Israeli regardless of circumstances, brought no progress to the Palestinian cause.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Sometimes the accusations of bigotry are true. Like in your case, bigot.


You promote discrimination according to national origin, and are therefore a bigot.


I don't care about Matisyahu, he made his own stupid racist declarations, and should have simply been barred from that event for all I care. But Roy Zafrani's movie about disabled children being barred because it didn't touch on the right subjects is bigoted. And you are a bigot for supporting it. Nor do you care about a single Palestinian, much less millions, you bigot.

Tatum Girlparts posted:

Hey serious question how do you feel about Jews as a whole because holy gently caress this is bordering on some creepy poo poo.

DrProsek posted:

Follow up question: do Jews who oppose the treatment of Palestinians have a duty/obligation to get Israeli citizenship as fast as possible to vote in anti-apartheid parties in Israel? Should pressure be applied to Jews who can get citizenship but refuse?

Tatum Girlparts posted:

Hey bad question there, my family that stayed there had a poo poo ton of Romanians, ya know, the dudes who got real bad with the holocaust? I guess those guys shoulda done the right thing and led a coup solo while their brothers and sisters (literally) were being taken to death camps. I suppose they're just as bad as the SS dudes, yea?

Tatum Girlparts posted:

Is there any evidence that this is what worked, though, vs the national level, and economic focused, ones?

Svartvit posted:

The minimum requirement of zionism is actually to express a stong cultural bond to Jerusalem/the holy land. At least if you want to relate the concept to the word, neither of which political Zionism owned or invented.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Rarely you do see commentators in AJE and the such who let slip something like "Israel bad sure but jfc Assad can't you take a queue from them and at least pretend the wholesale butchery of civilians is not your primary military objective?".

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Wow what a zinger.

I'm sure every single pro-palestinian detractor also sings Israel's praises when they speak about Assad, after all their world views are very nuanced it's not like they've been brainwashed to hate Israel for the past 68 years by the dictators who oppress them on a daily basis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKuhoXGEC-E

I can't find the rest of the segment but the co-comentator blasts that guy for being offensive by saying that Israel isn't worse than Assad... accute ADD blah blah whatever. Why do I even respond to you you always talk to me like an rear end in a top hat.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Edit: Okay sorry this was too much. You people do not even acknowledge the point I am trying to make, I have no desire to prance around for the purpose of your little circlejerk, sorry.

Main Paineframe posted:

While I agree in principle, after Protective Edge ended and the UN worked out a deal between Israel and the PA to coordinate the rebuilding of the Gaza Strip, a big international aid conference was held where billions of dollars were pledged toward reconstruction, and that was considered to be the funding for the reconstruction plan. In reality, only a few hundred million of that money has been delivered on, and not only the reconstruction but even the humanitarian aid has ground to a halt due to being funded by nothing more than broken promises. I agree that it's a poor investment, but charity cases usually are. And it's not like "eh, why bother housing the homeless, their home might get destroyed again so let's just leave them on the streets" is exactly the pinnacle of moral development.