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I picked up a Surface 3 a couple weeks ago. As a former Surface Pro 2 and current Surface Pro 3 owner I thought I'd post my impressions. (also, if you have a Microsoft Store nearby and an older Surface, they will still do the trade in deal for you, even unlisted ones - they gave me $350 for my SP2 256gb which was as good as the going rate on Craigslist and far less sketchy). I got the 128/4gb 3. I've been using my SP3 for almost a year now, got it at launch, and been pretty happy with it, but I helped sell my company to a Borg collective last year and they gave me a standard issue Lenovo laptop (the 450, which isn't half bad actually). Since I'm not going to carry that thing and an SP3 around airports every week, but don't want to give up the on whole Surface experience/switch back to a smaller Android/iOS tablet, I thought I'd give the S3 a try. With the trade in it was cheap. Random notes: That it is slower than the SP3 is no surprise but this device is a case study in why going off benchmarks alone doesn't tell the whole story: Day to day it "feels" about the same to me. Office applications are snappy, browsing is snappy, stuff like Plex media center works just as well, etc. Obviously everyone's use case is going to be different and if you try to push outside the envelope - video encoding, larger Photoshop projects, etc. - you're going to notice but day to day I haven't really run in to a situation where I've thought "crap, I wish I had the SP3". The one exception for me would be VS2013, which I have tried a couple of times on the S3 - one of my medium-sized C++ projects takes more than twice as long to build (about 10 minutes longer). Still, I can build it, which is something I can't do on iOS or Android, and in any case I have my Lenovo for actual development work. I get that the eMMC storage is slower but I'd have to run a benchmark test to know it or transfer a lot of files, etc. because for what I normally use it for it doesn't make a difference. I love how light it is. The SP3 is amazingly light and thin for how powerful it is. The S3 is just light and thin, period. Battery life is decent but not mind blowing - it'll last a coast to coast flight and make it to check in at the hotel, I learned last week, which is decent enough, though my SP3 can do that too. I spent about a third of the flight working on Visio and Powerpoint poo poo and the rest watching movies in Plex. Also some email since the flight had (lovely) WiFi. It does take a long while to recharge. I do appreciate that the adapter it comes with is also very small/portable (and does a nice job charging phones) but I'm going to look around and see if I can find a stronger option within the limits of micro-USB. I held out for a day this time around and didn't buy the keyboard, then gave in. I hate buying these overpriced things, I don't care what Microsoft says, they are pretty much required addons for the Surface line and they are priced at least $40 USD too high for what you get in my opinion. At least it doesn't suck like the SP1/2 version did (the trackpad, though smaller than the SP3 version, is still miles ahead of the Type Cover 1/2). The 3 position kickstand vs. the SP3: I actually prefer the 3 position. It's easier to pop in to position and just deal with in general, and the angles you get work well. I'm 6'3 and had no problem with it on a plane. The big weakness, as always, is not the hardware - it is top notch, just like the SP3, even the screen is still fantastic - but the software experience outside of the Windows desktop. The Microsoft Store and its crappy tablet-optimized app selection remains the achilles heel of the Surface line and Windows portables in general. "Metro" IE only takes you so far - the argument that the browser does everything you need in tablet mode for Windows is getting tired, it doesn't - but I was already used to this and accept the trade offs. I suspect for a lot of people the S3 would do just fine as a primary device. It also does a good job filling the secondary role for people like me who have a regular full-featured laptop and want an iPad without having to deal with iOS (which has a superior tablet ecosystem but its own set of restrictions and tradeoffs). I have found it a lot easier to travel with, even over the SP3, in fact for some trips I'll probably ditch my work laptop and just carry it, as long as there is decent internet and I can VPN where I'm going. At the very least I can put the Lenovo in my larger carry on and just keep the S3 in my seat bag like a regular tablet. Looking forward to Windows 10. I've been testing the latest fast ring builds on the SP3 and it still has a ways to go as far as being tablet friendly but it is definitely getting there as of the latest release this week. The better Windows tablet experience gets the more valuable something like the S3 becomes. At least Universal apps are finally getting some traction after years of discussion too, we may actually have a near-perfect device in a year or two.
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May 31, 2015 16:07
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ljw1004 posted:That's really interesting. Most of my apps are small (2 seconds to compile on my SP1) so maybe the S3 would do fine on them. Sorry for the delay - travelling again. The S3 comes with Windows 8 "Core" which doesn't have Hyper-V (or Active Directory support). You can upgrade it in place to Pro for $99, or you can buy an S3 from an OEM that sells it with Pro for $50 more than list. However I don't know how well it would work. I have read of several folks using it for phone emulator development on the S3 though I have not myself. It's not bad for Visual Studio with smaller projects, just set your expectations accordingly. The new Atom CPU is no slouch but it's still an Atom. ljw1004 posted:Curious if you've tried build 10130 yet in tablet mode (with the new "back" button in the taskbar)? When you say it "has a ways to go" what examples do you have in mind? I installed it (upgraded via Fast Ring) a couple days ago. It's better, but I think it still has a ways to go for "tablet mode". It does do a better job switching back and forth (windows actually return to sizes now, if not positions) when you dock/undock the SP3 keyboard, for example. However - and it's hard for me to narrow this to just one or two things - I think it still lacks a lot of "polish" in this area. I have a feeling there are going to be plenty of patches for it after July 29.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:17
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Nerdrock posted:Personally, my main issue on my Surface Pro 3 with W10 build 10130 is that the notification center / action center only seems to work like half the time. That is the case for everyone, notification center is due for a major update next build.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:55
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sbaldrick posted:So is the SP3 the only realistic laptop replacement out of all the Windows tablets? I don't do anything on my computer at home anymore beyond basic surfing, movie watching, comic reading and some RTS gaming (EUIV). The gaming bit is what will throw you off - that kind of game, anyway. There are lots of "tablet" games (well, not so many for Windows yet) that play well, but EUIV, even though it is older, I don't think runs well on a Core M, and the Surface 3 is slower than a Core M. So the Surface Pro 3 - with an i5 - is probably your best bet. Though, owning both, I have to tell you neither one is a gaming powerhouse if we are talking Windows Desktop gaming, unless they are older titles, like 4+ years (generally speaking, there are exceptions). That's pretty much the case for any "Ultrabook" class laptop these days anyway, you give up a lot of GPU to get that thin, light, battery-saving experience. For everything else though they are great. The only real reason to get the Pro now is if you want a slightly bigger screen and a more powerful CPU/more RAM/faster storage - though the margin is so thin that you'd have to fit in a pretty narrow use case, now, to go that way if you needed the power and not an actual laptop with even more (for less money). The Surface 3 (non-Pro) has really changed the equation for the Surface line, I think, it's like 80% of the Surface Pro but - for many people - probably closer to 99% of the use cases the Surface line excels at. And in one aspect - being an actual tablet - non-Pro 3 is better, given that it's a little smaller and lighter and doesn't have a fan. On paper it doesn't seem like much but I just got back from my second trip with it and it is much easier to use, almost iPad-like, in cramped environments like planes. If only the Windows store were better....at least the Kindle app doesn't completely suck now, and the Plex app is actually really decent on 8.1 now, so as far as media watching goes the S3 is a champ (it natively plays almost everything, and has a ton of storage compared to iOS/Android tablets. Plex also syncs faster with it).
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Jun 5, 2015 05:20
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Had anyone tried Photoshop or similar on a Surface 3? I really want a Surface to run Manga Studio on, which I believe is less of a hog than Photoshop, but MS5 won't even load on my Encore (it installs without issue, but just won't do anything when I run it), so I can't tell how it holds up on an Atom CPU. Depends on what you are editing with it. I put CC on mine for fun and can muck about with small images for web sites, etc, but the limited memory (4gb on the top end model) and eMMC storage would probably choke it on larger stuff before the CPU did. Like anything else though it depends on your tolerance. It'll run. I kind of like Photoshop Express, the free App Adobe offers on the Windows Store that works well with touch. It's not the full deal, of course, but it works pretty well for what it does and more importantly it works really well on lower end devices like the Surface 3. Manga Studio I have no idea. You'd think they'd target the S3 with it's nice pen support, just like they do the SP3, but maybe it's too slow for them.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:15
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Protocol7 posted:Think I might pick up a S3 as well. We're getting laptops in the office (so they say) and I don't wanna have to carry my T420 and whatever we get at work. Codeblocks with G++ works great on the S3 for smaller projects, I use it all the time right now as I'm taking a Udamy course on C++ seeing as I am horribly out of date. One of the S3's great strengths is it is by any reasonable measure an iPad form factor with a Windows/x86 experience. As I will never stop saying, when (if) Microsoft ever gets their actual tablet/touch/store poo poo together they will (would) be unstoppable. The S3 is a so-so ultrabook, if you look at it purely in that light. The Surface form factor is just a little weird for that and it's underpowered. And it's too dependant on the Windows desktop ecosystem (and thus, a keyboard/mouse) to truly be a 100% tablet. You really need to fit in to the use case where you can make maximum use of the best parts of both. Usually that is "office road warrior" (or student) who cares less about raw performance and more about portability. If you are the person who carried an iPad around everywhere instead of a laptop but ended up buying one of those ridiculous keyboard covers for it and uses it 80+% of the time for office apps, browsing, and movies, then the Surface 3 is for you because it will do all of that and more, and do a better job of it. Also there is the pen. I never use mine but a lot of people really dig that about the Surface line so there's that. If you really bought in to the whole iOS ecosystem (or Android I guess) and like the shitload of games and finger-friendly apps that they have then you will probably walk away disappointed, or at least wishing for more. Ixian fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 04:56
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sethsez posted:I'm curious how good the Surface 3 is at basic video editing. No major effects, just basic cuts with some fades here and there. Probably not very well but it depends on what "basic" means to you. It's not a half bad CPU, in that for browsing, office, media playback, and the like you'd be hard pressed to know the difference between it and and something faster but video editing is going to be one of those things that pushes it. Particularly since there will be few apps for Windows optimized for that form factor/CPU. Protocol7 posted:Yeah, I'd definitely like it for the portability. I'm unfortunately a .NET Developer by trade so I'd like to have the option to use Visual Studio on the go, though I'm aware it will be less than optimal (most of my development happens on my desktop anyway). You'll like it. You'll be just like me and do your "serious" stuff on your better PC but you can get quite a bit done on this thing which says a lot considering how small and cheap it is. Shumagorath posted:It's not that there's no tool to do the same job in x86; it's that touch-only Windows is a very limiting experience compared to iOS and every time you end up on the desktop when you're in tablet mode is a failure of the Modern UI. That said I lasted a week on an iPad mini 2 before switching to a Dell Venue 8 Pro + 32GB micro-SD + case + pen for the same price, better battery life and 90% of the daily utility. This. The great failure of the Windows store is that the entire promise/form factor of the Surface line is built around a particular portable touch aesthetic - keyboard/mouse desktop use is most definately a second concern unless you are sitting at a table, and if you are sitting at a table most of the time you don't really need a Surface. In that case the Surface just boils down to a slightly more convenient package to get to the table, and the Ultrabook world is constantly upping the ante there. The hardware really shines as a hybrid. It's maybe the best true hybrid design on the market...except you'd never really know it, because it's missing the software for half of it. The browser won't do everything you need on the go. Modern IE is not a replacement for lack of even a solid first party experience for touch, that was a tired argument even when Apple tried it with Mobile Safari back in 2007-8. Their shareholders and users aren't complaining about that about face. They don't need to "catch up" with iOS and Google Play; that is Microsoft's big mistake. They need better first party apps - which are finally coming, years late - and they need better support from more "premier" third party apps. When even staples like Facebook are still an embarrassment on the platform (and the Kindle app, etc.) there's a problem. And let's not even get in to the mountains of crap that overrun the store to this day, which they are making yet another attempt at cleaning out in the space of a year. I don't think Windows 10 may help much, I am running the latest fast ring on my test laptop and my old (relatively) SP3 and if anything I think Windows 10 is a better deal for regular laptops and desktops than it is for hybrids like the Surface. Convergence mode needs work.
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Jun 10, 2015 03:43
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chocolateTHUNDER posted:Just wait. Really, what's the rush? It'll pop up sooner or later, and it's not like you can actually download it until the end of July anyway... The point of it is that it actually will start pre-install downloading before the end of July, much like many pre-release games, etc. do, in order to avoid launch day rush. So reserving it, assuming you have to have it day one, isn't a bad idea.
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Jun 13, 2015 23:16
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Psyker posted:I would, but my concerns are: As someone who owned (and still owns the SP3, and an S3) both, and used both on the road a lot, in my opinion you are thinking about this the wrong way, or a little too much. The SP3 is flat out better in every way. I still have no idea what the whole "cooling" fuss is about - I understand the technical details behind the differences in the CPUs, I'm just saying you aren't going to notice it. What you are going to notice is the SP2 is heavier, thicker, has a slightly smaller screen that while nice isn't as nice as the SP3's, and while 16x9 sounds great for watching movies the SP3 aspect ratio is much better for everything else...and it's no slouch at watching movies, either. Also the adjustable kickstand is much better and the Type Cover 3 is miles ahead of the Type Cover 2 (technically I think you can actually use a Type Cover 3 with an SP2 but it won't fit right). The SP3 is a better device. Don't waste money on an SP2 unless the price difference is more than half for the same specs. Also, 4gb will be fine for these things, it's not a laptop replacement, you won't be doing much "light gaming" on either of them no matter what Youtube tells you, they really aren't very good for PC titles and the ones they are good for either one will do fine with, 8gb or 4gb. I'm not saying 8gb isn't important for Windows these days, just that it isn't as important for a Surface, because if you are trying to use one as an all-in-one PC you aren't going to be happy even if you do have 8gb. Really what you should get is an S3 unless you can get a good deal on a used SP3, since the S3 is better than the Pro line for what the Surface does best - super-portable Windows - and carry it with a decent laptop when you really need the extra juice. In other words, treat it like most people treat an iPad + laptop, and when you don't feel like carting your laptop around, you don't have to. If you really need the extra juice all the time then just get a decent, light ultrabook. If you really like gaming get one of those that has discreet graphics, they've come a long way even in the last year.
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Jun 17, 2015 01:48
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I run in to this all the time in software development, I call it the submarine problem. Like, say the software is a submarine, and this particular sub is designed to cruise around at 100 feet (let's call it a recreational sub, roll with the metaphor), and a request comes in that a customer likes the sub a lot, and 100 feet depth is fine, but every once and a while they want to take it down to 2,000 feet....so please add that to the product. It's a different submarine that does that, and a portable device that plays modern Windows desktop games well is a different kind of device. You're gonna sacrifice something to carry around that extra power for the times when you need it - or not. Talk about "light gaming" in the context of these Windows tablets is the new "will it run Crysis" for 2014-15 
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Jun 20, 2015 03:25
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Call Me Charlie posted:I don't know. My stupid 13" Lenovo is a champ if you lower the resolution/settings way down and keep it plugged in. I've played Team Fortress 2 and Skyrim for a couple of hours each and it doesn't get worrying hot like my old 8 and 10 inch tablets with 2 GB of ram did. To be clear, I use mine for gaming (...light, even) myself. I just think that gaming - Windows desktop PC style gaming (for lack of a better description) is more of a "great if it works, but a bonus" thing and not the driving criteria behind what these devices can do. If that is what someone is looking for they are going to probably end up disappointed. The problem is "light gaming" is one of the most eye of the beholder terms there is. On one end you have Peggle and on the other you have Witcher 3. Everyone (looking in this thread) understands those extremes but the middle is wide open. So it's a really hard question to answer when it comes up; not everyone is going to be happy playing TF2 at low resolution, etc. There are a lot of really decent, thin and light Ultrabooks now that have integrated graphics that, while hardly gaming powerhouses, will do a much better job than any Windows tablet or hybrid. All I'm saying is don't rule those out if that kind of gaming is your thing.
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Jun 20, 2015 16:23
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MrOnBicycle posted:I know next to nothing about windows 10, but I read an article yesterday about how windows 10 is the poo poo because it finally makes the 2-in-1 Surfaces fully work because you aren't constantly switching between Metro and desktop mode. That seem like a pretty big plus. I've probably spent 80% of my time in desktop mode so far. It is, honestly, not all that different. The biggest change with Convergence mode is when you have a compatible device (like the Surface line and its keyboard cover) and attach the keyboard it goes to desktop mode, detach goes to tablet. It handles some things like window positions a little better between switching, too. In the end though it's not all that different. I do like the Start menu design overall though, in Desktop mode. Windows 10 doesn't solve the biggest "tablet" problem Windows has overall, which is a distinct lack of quality touch-optimized apps. The store is still a joke and the new Office isn't out yet - right now Office is better on iOS and Android for Touch which is saying something. There are a few things about it I like that are a little better for touch, such as the fact that things like settings, etc. are finally going to a "universal" design (though there's still a legacy mode for things like the Control Panel and Device Manager) but overall it's more of an refinement, not a revolution. The change to OneDrive is terrible - and for those who don't know, that same change is coming across the board, even for 8.1. You have to choose what folders to sync and only those folders show up in the OneDrive client (and take up storage space on your device). It is hands down one of the stupidest choices I have seen Microsoft make recently. What exactly is the point of storing a bunch of stuff in OneDrive if you have to also store it locally - on every connected device - to see it? Or log in to the Web client, which is just as dumb? I read there is some sort of change coming to that and I am holding out hope it is an XBox One style reverse.
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Jun 28, 2015 18:51
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Shrimpy posted:Basically I'm just looking for something plane friendly. Very open to suggestions. The Surface 3 is very plane friendly, well built, has a good warranty, and the base 2gb model will suit that use fine. For that matter it will work pretty decent as a regular Windows device too. You can go cheaper, but you will get cheaper. For $500 it is a drat solid device that works really well and the kickstand is the balls. The only real drawback is you'll probably end up wanting the keyboard cover and the stupid thing is still another $130 - they really need to drop the price on it. That said the combo IS really nice so I guess you get what you pay for there too. I use Plex with mine, I have a 128gb SD card for storage and just sync stuff off my home server. Works really well on the plane/in hotels (hotel internet isn't always great for Netflix, etc. especially overseas). The fact that I can get work done on it is a bonus. I don't even take my work laptop on some trips, if I know I am not going to be doing any heavy coding, etc.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:24
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Sire Oblivion posted:Holy poo poo that owns. If gets refined so it's not so janky, I'd love this to be common place. I've found myself with less of a need for a desktop PC but I still have one for gaming, and only that. If I could just run a laptop with a desktop GPU hanging out of it's rear end on the desk I'd be a happy camper. Alienware makes this today for certain models of their laptops: http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/alienware-graphics-amplifier?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&sku=452-BBRG From every review I have read it's pretty janky even with the polish they add to it, so I imagine homebrew is about science-project level...i.e. fun if you like doing stuff like that for the sake of doing it, but not from a "actual use case" point of view.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:53
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midnightclimax posted:Ask in the "recommend me a tablet" thread. I'd say set a price range, and go with an android variant. Lots of bang for the buck, very happy with mine. Nothing about Android makes it more plane-friendly than Windows or iOS. Plane-friendly (I will straight up admit this is my definition, but I fly 150k miles a year) means: Light as possible Durable - stuff is going to get banged around sometimes if you fly enough Strong battery A good headphone jack (important to note because some lower end tablets cheap out here) Fit in seat pocket (mostly) Not be a pain in the rear end to: Get out of bag/seat pocket, set up on tiny rear end table or lap, and immediately start doing whatever it is you want to do, such as watch a movie or browse the web, etc. if you are on a WiFi plane. Expandable storage options - mSD, USB Nice big, bright HD screen, as big as you can get without compromising the other priorities Finally, the app situation - arguably, you could say that "touch friendly" would win on a plane, in which case iOS, followed by Android, would triumph, with Windows a distinct (and disappointing) third. However, I have personally found that not to always be the case, in fact there have been times I have found touchscreens to be annoying as hell on a plane and really appreciate having a compact keyboard/mouse setup as an option ala Surface or other (lessor) hybrids. That's just me though. For media consumption, I actually prefer Windows, simply because even with Plex it's just easier to deal with - it'll direct play most anything. And I like being able to use "regular" Chrome with my normal extensions instead of a hobbled mobile browser or walled app experience. I've traveled quite a bit with all three - an iPad Air, an LG Gpad 8.9 running 4.3 (and later Lollipop) which I did like, and my Surface devices. The S3 is the one I like the best, simply because it is just as portable as the first two, the battery life is very good, it's more powerful, the kickstand is super convenient (and it's durable enough on its own - so no case, I just put it in my travel bag with the Type Cover)...it gets the job done. And it's cheaper than a new iPad. Each to their own, of course. Someone else may well like an Android/etc. device better. But nothing about it "makes" it better for plane trips by itself.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:13
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Call Me Charlie posted:Just decided to jump into the Windows 10 preview on a whim and, yikes, they've ripped out nearly all the tablet stuff from Windows 8.1 There IS a certain irony that the people who actually bought in to to the new mobile-first experience MS tried to push so hard with Windows 8.x are the ones who have to take a step back now. As I recall, their many user experience tests showed that a lot of people didn't though, particularly the swipe gestures. Whether it was because there were too many of them, they were/are too different from iOS/Android, or people just didn't give a poo poo and really wanted a desktop Windows that was a little easier to use on a touchscreen I don't know, but the latter is what we got Now that 10162 is out and 10 is actually usable and performs quite nicely on the Surface 3 I've been using it quite a bit (it worked ok with 10130, better with 10158, the latest however is solid). Now that Continuum works - all the time, without lag - I quite like it, it feels very natural. I can see this part being the one big thing that gets Microsoft closer to whatever vision they are trying for, since "hybrid PC" seems to be a big part of that. Edge desperately needs extension support and a little more polish (also, their stance on search engines needing to support a certain standard in order to be added as an option/default, which seems to be aimed squarely at Google because it doesn't, sucks) and I think you really need to be bought in to the whole Microsoft ecosystem to get the most out of it, particularly the default apps - meaning 365 (you can add some Google accounts, but I've found the support to be so-so). You could say the same about iOS and Android too though. I think it'll end up being pretty nice for Windows tablets and hybrids. Desktop PCs I am less sure about - I have it on mine, on a separate SSD for grins, but there is less of an argument for it. Eventually it'll make sense but I don't think it's a day one upgrade there (which is convenient since MS is backing off universal day one upgrades anyway). Also who give poo poo about desktops now, right? Heavy duty workstations/PC gaming, that's about it these days. Mecca-Benghazi posted:How is the new notifications/action center? I actually like this a lot, but more for the quick settings on mobile/tablets than the notifications, the former being something Windows 8.1 did a bad job with (for things like airplane mode, etc.) Once more apps take advantage of it it'll probably turn out to be decent. If third party apps that enable sync across other notification centers in Android/iOS pop up then that would be really interesting.
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Jul 3, 2015 16:21
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Call Me Charlie posted:It's good. Most of the toasts end up in there and, when you click on one, it opens the program. Much better than the old system of rush to click the toast before it disappears forever. You can also clear all your notifications with one touch. Calendar toast doesn't appear in it because it stays up until you interact with it. I agree, toasts are better, meaning useful now. It's really just feature parity with mobile and OSX at this point but I'll take it. Call Me Charlie posted:It's microsoft.txt for them to try to do something innovative way ahead of its time when the technology isn't there and backpedal the second it starts to make sense. Cortana is definitely going to be a work in progress for a while. It's improved, but...yeah. I gave up on "metro" IE a while ago for other reasons so I am used to Chrome as it is - which is the same on 10 as it is on 8.1, of course (at least it's gotten better for touch/hiDPI over the last couple years). In other words I've just accepted that browsing is going to be slightly annoying without full gesture support in tablet mode but I'll get used to it At least with Continuum it goes full screen automatically. I feel like MS is still a little too scattered in their approach, is the problem. They have absolutely gotten more focused since the Ballmer/Sinofsky era ended, but they are a long way yet from the laser focus of a company like Apple (or, arguable, like Apple used to be). You can debate that approach - and good God people do - but there's something to be said for picking a "sweet spot" of users and then going all out at them. For example they could have spent more time on Edge, gotten in extension support prior to release (I am still amazed that is not coming until *after* launch), laid on more polish, and in general gotten a lot more insiders on their side earlier. Instead it's become yet another Microsoft browser that only a small subset of users use all the time while everyone else installs Chrome or Firefox - ignoring all the other small features and integration points that Microsoft really wants people to test in Edge. They went at it backwards, I think. And basically forcing people to use Bing as the default search is dumb because Bing sucks (I'm aware you can get DuckDuckGo to work with it). Microsoft is still kind of all over the place, playing catch up with their own in-house app ecosystem, which is just a way to keep themselves in the game (yet another set of photo, contacts, calendar, mail, music, maps, news, video, voice assist, web search, etc. apps and ecosystems to deal with, God), trying to please the hardcore "why can't this just be Windows 7 but better" crowd" and then figuring out how to unify the whole thing with mobile - something Apple and Google straight up ignore for the most part outside of small bits here and there. With all that in mind I'm still kind of impressed that they have managed it as well as they have with Windows 10 - call me a glass half full guy, maybe, and the inevitable 10.1 will probably be the version we are all actually happy with in 12-18 months, but I think this OS might at least pull them out of the swirling drain Windows 8 started them down, particularly in the Enterprise. The latter is undoubtedly where the refocus on desktop matters the most - if you don't work for a megacorp somewhere in the world it's easy to forget that most of them are still powering along with Windows 7 and a few are even paying for extended support on XP. I work for one again - thanks to an acquisition - and am in that situation. And BYOD is the unwritten rule of the land too because no one can stand new, but decidedly dated-feeling laptops running Windows 7 anymore. Protocol7 posted:I installed W10 preview (build 10130) on my HP Stream 7 and it was miserable. Clearly no thought about tablets at all. Items overlaid at 1280x800 with no DPI scaling, and generally much more difficulty to use compared to W8.1. I suspect it'd be better on my Surface, but I'm positive it'll still be a step back. I don't know how you came to that conclusion; they thought about tablets a lot. Whether it worked well or the changes are to your taste is another matter. 10162 is good on the Surface devices, at least. 10130 was a dog and had lots of problems but it wasn't due to lack of foresight, stuff just didn't work, it's a preview. Continuum is the one big killer tablet feature in 10 (now that it works), closely followed by the new notification/action center. The latter needs some work - what it really needs is a way to be able to customize it, add options, etc., but I suspect that will come. The "full screen" issue btw (where you can still get a task bar at the bottom) is caused by two things - lack of updated support in apps for new Windows 10 features and mostly-fixed issues in Continuum. For example, the latest update to the Plex app, which supports 10, and the latest fast ring build, doesn't have this problem - on my Surface 3, if I open it with the keyboard attached it opens in a window (you can click to maximize it) but if I fold the keyboard back or detach it it instantly goes full screen, no task bar on the bottom.
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Jul 4, 2015 01:39
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Protocol7 posted:I'm biting the bullet and installing it on my Surface anyway. I figure they probably don't give half as much of a poo poo about how it works on my $100 tablet as much as they do my flagship tablet, so it should be fine on the Surface. Fairer to say performance tuning on lower end devices has only recently started, and drivers also play a big part in the experience, but yes you'll probably like it on the Surface, particularly if it is an SP2, 3 or S3. The SP3 was one of their target models for testing and the S3, in spite of being new, has steadily gotten better driver support (until recently there was a problem with the new Atom CPU support in 10 which caused problems but that has been fixed) and both run well. Intel also finally has decent video drivers out for them.
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Jul 4, 2015 13:25
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Call Me Charlie posted:I wouldn't mess with the preview. I was planning on going back to Windows 8.1 but the rollback didn't work and the Windows 8.1 installer is bugged where you can't enter a 0 in the product key (which I have to enter since Windows 10 blasted my stored key in the BIOS) Everyone's experience can be different, sure but I'm surprised you all are having so many problems with the Surface 3:  First, you don't have to bother with upgrading from older builds any longer (Call me Charlie is correct, the last official slow ring iso, 10130, did have an issue with the S3 because it didn't have CPU support for the new Atom yet) because 10162 is out, officially, as an iso: http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=522144 Second, as this is a preview, I and most others always recommend a clean install over an upgrade, unless you feel like helping Microsoft with upgrade testing feedback specifically (in which case, be prepared). You can use the free version of Macrium Reflect 6 to back up your existing 8.1 install on the Surface quickly and painlessly, exactly like it is now (restore partitions and all): http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx Most of us who have been doing the insider thing for a while have been doing this. I've recovered several times this way. Last, I personally rolled back from 10158 to Windows 8.1 on the last round, specifically to test a couple scenarios and provide feedback, on my S3 so I know it can be done - though it was a clean 8.1 install I did specifically for testing. I've also upgraded from regular in-use 8.1 to insider builds on other PCs (but not the Surface). If you don't want to mess with it than by all means, wait, it won't kill you, but A) it's starting to get good and B) now is the time when "polish" feedback is getting a lot of attention - if you join the insider program (which is free), use your MSA (also free, and you can create another if you don't want to use your regular Microsoft account), install an official .iso and not some random leaked build from Mega.nz or something (for fucks sake) then you will not only probably have a decent experience but you will have a chance to actually provide feedback and might even help influence the direction of this OS on tablets. PSA: With the new builds, you have to opt-in to get the Insider Hub app, which provides the bridge to send in feedback information to Microsoft. I send in stuff all the time. Don't just complain about how it isn't the advanced Windows 7 of your dreams - do something about it Now is about the best time there will ever be.
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Jul 4, 2015 23:21
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Call Me Charlie posted:I have a Lenovo Yoga Tablet 2 13 not a Surface Since the Preview releases are still using Telemetry, it would tell them quite a lot actually (and no, it doesn't keylog you or send all your poo poo to the NSA...or at least, no more then Google/Microsoft/Apple/etc. are doing anyway depending on how thick your  is). So yes, by all means run it and send a report that says hey, the loving mail app keeps crashing. Maybe omit the "loving" if you want to be polite and be heard but you get the point Ixian fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 03:44
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TopherCStone posted:Ditto with my Winbook. I really only use it for Tablet Things, not as a mobile workstation. Edge, right now, is a buggier Chrome that uses less memory, doesn't support extensions (and will almost certainly use more memory when it does), and in some respects is faster and others is out to lunch. It works well enough on small devices but if you are used to Metro IE you are not going to be delighted with the change, most likely. In my experience the people who leverage "Metro" IE the most are the "apps? we don't need any apps, do it all in the browser" crowd and for them the change in full/small screen optimization, gestures, etc. between Metro IE and Edge is probably going to be pretty jarring - just check out Call Me Charlie in this thread, for example Edge isn't an evolution of the Metro IE experience, it's a new browser meant to replace IE and take on Google Chrome. It's not *bad* for touch (or more specifically, small/full screen touch optimization) but they definitely focused more on the "Windows" part of the Windows name with 10.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:09
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Tony Montana posted:It's Windows. Those getting into a hand-flapping fit about the changes, stay with the old version. It's fine and can do everything the new one can, just not as slick. I wouldn't say Windows has been that way since the 90's at all. In fact I can think of several stretches in that 20 odd year period you threw out where they demonstrably did the opposite. The particular irony here is Windows 10 is a release heavily influenced by user feedback. "User" is a amorphous concept in the Windows world however; put 10 together, none of them will agree more than 80% on anything and at least two of them will think the other 8 are a bunch of drooling retards who should be killed for food and/or spare parts. In my opinion At risk of being a broken record: I know, for an absolute fact, that while the Windows 10 team will not guarantee to right every personal grievance or sacred cow, right now in the month leading up to RTM before the true hordes get their hands on it is the best time to get constructive feedback on "polish" issues and requests in. Particularly around things like Edge. If you want better gestures or swipe back put back in even now is the time to fire up the official preview and submit feedback for it. Ignoring it, sticking with the old version, and assuming they will sort it out with a .1 release like 8 or a service pack like other versions isn't the safest bet because that was not the same company (mindset) that is releasing 10. There are quite a few mobile/tablet friendly things in 10 that make it worth pushing forward - get 10 to be better. As a disclaimer no, I don't work for them.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:16
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So....you won't be doing the Windows 10 Tablet thread then, I take it? Maybe keep this one open with a  tag?
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Jul 7, 2015 13:23
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Call Me Charlie posted:The Windows 10 tablet thread feat. the only people who long for Windows 8.1 I don't completely disagree with you. You are pretty focused on Edge vs. "Metro" IE though and there's a lot more to 10 than that. Including a lot of changes that developers might actually use now. I get the frustration because thanks to the app situation the browser is the go-to app for most of the OS in tablet mode however I am starting to see that change - finally. Particularly with Media and News apps. You can actually get decent RSS aggregators, hybrid curated stuff like Flipboard doesn't suck as a Windows app anymore, and media apps like Plex and Emby actually have Windows 10 betas out that take advantage of new APIs and features. Edge is gonna take some time to bake in the oven, no question. They are putting themselves in an uncomfortable crossroads there considering the hole they are in with good quality apps. They will cede the portable market for good if they don't get it right with this OS generation, I think, and the portable market is fast turning in to the market, period (lot of people would say it already is, but that isn't the case in the Enterprise at all). Tom Guycot posted:I've been holding out, waiting for the SP4 to be released before I upgrade my SP2, but now I'm wondering how tricky it will end up being to downgrade to 8.1. I hope there's no weird driver issues with any particular new hardware features that will make it difficult. I'd really like to see basically the sp3, but with the next generation of CPU inside, and I find it a bit odd its gone this long and microsoft still hasn't said a peep about the sp4. Does anyone have any clue when we'll start to see some word on it? No word at all (other than random link bait sites - so in other words, no word at all). They just released an updated SP3 which is a minor tech refresh meant to fill a sku and nothing more. There is a reasonable chance you won't see an SP4 this year. There is even a chance you won't see one at all - they may just keep going the Surface 3/Atom route. The Surface 3 (I own it an an SP3, and used to own an SP2) is their best Surface. The SP3 is nice as hell but in my opinion if you need the power it provides you are better served with one of the increasingly diverse options on the market - a straight up Ultrabook, or one of the various bendy hybrids if you insist on that kind of thing. What I am saying is the SP3 tilts just far enough towards the "laptop/ultrabook" side of things that you might as well just get one that does that part really well. The Surface 3, by contrast, is the one that strikes the best middle ground between "Ultrabook" and Tablet. Looking at the specs you might not be impressed - given all the posters here asking if 2gb is enough I imagine this is common - but specs are deceptive with it. You aren't going to power your way through the latest PC games, re-encode your pirate video Linux iso's, or compile code in record time....but variations of those things are all possible, and it does other "PC" stuff just as well as a PC 10 times as powerful. I like it quite a bit.
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Jul 8, 2015 00:22
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Call Me Charlie, The Register wrote an article on Windows 10 just for you: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/07/windows_10_for_windows_8_and_7_users/ Once you get past the de rigor Register snark - which they have turned up to 11 - a lot of their complaints seem pretty valid to me, even though I still have a glass half full outlook on the whole thing. There's a lot to like about Windows 10 but "chaotic design" is actually a charitable way of putting the current state of the UI.
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Jul 8, 2015 03:59
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Call Me Charlie posted:There's one positive thing they mentioned that I didn't think of. Maps app now has the ability to use offline maps and it can do voice navigation. Turning my giant tablet into a giant gps system is pretty cool (and long overdue) The maps are also good (licensed from Here), at least in the US. Or, since I am just talking about me, at least for my area, maybe they suck somewhere else However I hear (har) good things about them.The music app is also turning out pretty decent although (in addition to not crashing, which is just a pre-release/universal app teething thing - I hope) they really need a way to edit basic metadata, like coverart, in the thing. I like the automatic OneDrive sync as much as I hate the other changes they made to OneDrive.
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Jul 8, 2015 05:01
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The Windows 8.1 tablet thread - Soon to be the Windows vs. Mac thread from 1992-Present
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Jul 8, 2015 19:03
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Ciaphas posted:Are there any real winners right now as hardware goes in the $5-600 range or below, for either a tablet or hybrid laptop? I'm not looking to do a lot besides browse the net (with my usual set of Firefox extensions--ublock, h264ify, and lots of tabs--so maybe that's harder than it sounds I agree the Surface 3 Type Keyboard is expensive but the combo is still the best deal for what you are looking for. The build quality is also top notch for both.
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Jul 8, 2015 22:16
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) and stream from my Plex server, and play the odd lightweight game (think Crypt of the Necrodancer sort of level). Really the only real reason I need a Windows tablet/laptop and not Android/iOS is a couple specific applications and the need to access SMB/NFS shares directly.
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Ciaphas posted:Thanks Ixian and Call Me Charlie for the suggestions. If I can find one in a store to get my hands on I'll try the Yoga 2 13", see how I like the feel of it in tablet and laptop form; otherwise I'll probably just end up with the Surface 3, since I HAVE played with that and like the feel of it in all its forms. It's good enough, yes. 8.1 and 10 are much better dealing with memory these days, as are more recent versions of Chrome (not sure about Firefox). Just don't load it up with a lot of extensions, etc. However if you can squeeze it spend the $100 and get the 4gb with the extra storage, because that one goes from "good enough" to "perfect". I routinely have Chrome with 20-25 tabs open, 5 extensions (adblock, dlisted, etc.) plus other stuff like Windows 10 apps/readers and it's fine. It's not as quick on the draw to open larger programs as my SP3 because the storage is eMMC instead of SATA but I only notice if I have the two together, which I usually don't because I gave my SP3 to my wife.
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Jul 9, 2015 12:29
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Chrome was fixed a long time ago (for battery, etc. issues). It's not particularly touch friendly, especially at high dpi on small screens, but then, neither is Edge It works better for touch then it used to.
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Jul 9, 2015 20:34
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Windows 10 build 10166 is out on the Fast Ring: http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2015/07/09/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-10166/ Fixes galore. I don't know if this is the official "RTM" build but it is close. I will see if swipe-back works in Edge now just for you Charlie Ciaphas posted:Got my hands on a Yoga earlier, and I prefer the look and feel of the Surface, so I think that's where my money is going. Sure wish the keyboard were cheaper though Don't we all. You get what you pay for though. The Type Cover 2 was kind of crap (particularly the touchpad) but the Type Cover 3 is pretty nice and stands up to a beating. It is also surprisingly nice to type on considering how small it is. The touchpad is decent but a little small (however the entire screen is a touchpad if you want to look at it that way, which I often do).
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Jul 9, 2015 21:18
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Ciaphas posted:How much of a hard time is it to recover a surface 3 back to stock? I get the feeling I'm going to be experimenting with Win10, but I'd like to easily be able to roll back. Is the process the same as it is on a PC (get your product key if you didn't write it down, download an ISO, put it on a USB stick, make it bootable, etc)? You can do a recovery easily as Protocol7 mentions, right from the OS, but the even easier method is to install the free version of Macrium Reflect (6 was just released) and use that - it will back up everything you have, recovery partition and all, exactly as you have it now, apps and all. And it is surprisingly fast, I don't know what wizardry they are doing that companies like Acronis are not but if you are backing up to a decent USB 3 drive even a 512gb SP3 takes like 10-15 minutes. That is how I back up both my Surface (SP3 and S3) tablets. I can even restore them and go back to stock recovery from there if I wanted. Edit: Should mention that I have not only used it to back up images but have done a restore with it as well.
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Jul 9, 2015 22:35
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Call Me Charlie posted:I'm on it, brother. And the answer is no Now you got me annoyed by it For what it's worth one of the lead Edge developers tweeted that forward/back swipes and other touch gestures are coming to Edge, "post RTM" whatever date that ends up being. So, they have it on a roadmap, at least.Better touch and extensions compatible with (or at least easy to port from) Chrome? Edge might turn out to be good. Then again, "it's about to be good" has kind of been the mantra for Microsoft across all manner of products for years now PS sad yet hilarious that Chrome does this now and Microsoft's browser doesn't - Chrome is a better touch browser than IE or Edge! Talk about a reversal from when 8 launched. If I could figure out a way to make the nav bar and tabs in Chrome bigger on small screens without also boosting the size of everything else it'd be almost perfect, actually.
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Jul 10, 2015 00:50
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:Is that Internet recovery or just a recovery partition? Recovery partition. You can back it up to USB or a removable drive, in fact they recommend you do. Then you can delete the partition if you want. "Internet Recovery" at Microsoft for the Surface line at least is still "download our iso somewhere else, the key is built in the UEFI bios"
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Jul 10, 2015 00:51
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:Oh, OEMs have been doing that forever then. I was curious if an OEM had managed to pull off Apple's Internet Recovery and I hadn't heard about it. Not without running afoul of MS licensing. Easy enough for Apple in their closed ecosystem but probably gives the lawyers in Redmond the heebie-jeebies still. I work for a company comparable in size to MS after an acquisition and it's a similar mix of forward looking, "to the future!" sword waving acolytes and pockets of deeply rooted conservative resistance. It results in a lot of "why won't they do <x>, especially if over <y> they allow <z>?
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Jul 10, 2015 01:06
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Ciaphas posted:Hmm, my Surface 3 is in trouble already, it seems. I decided like a doof to try installing Windows 10, and the pen refused to pair ("Driver Error" On both my SP3 and S3 the pen works fine. In fact I only have one pen, the one that came with my SP3 (the S3 doesn't include it) so I have paired/unpaired it several times. What build are you running? And did you do a clean install? For the preview I always recommend a clean install, reinstalling crap if you have an MSA (or Google, Apple, Firefox, etc.) account is usually a snap, unless you have installed a shitton of legacy programs, which seems unusual for an SP3 but everyone is different. For the situation you are in now have you tried a hard power reset (hold power + volume down until the Surface logo appears) and boot directly off your recovery drive? Also you know that recovery drive you made, if you made it inside of Windows itself, is only going to take you back to a clean Windows install, right? You might as well go with a clean 10162 install, sign in with your Microsoft account, choose fast ring, and update to 10166 which came out today. It works really well on the SP3. Ciaphas posted:In tablet mode, Firefox doesn't seem to automatically pop up the touch keyboard, but Chrome does (and in Edge, of course). Is that likely a deficiency in Windows 10 right now, the Surface 3, or Firefox itself? The keyboard is an API call as I recall, though it's weird Firefox doesn't support it. Maybe they are using some different kind of text input detection - have you tried Googling the issue?
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Jul 10, 2015 06:16
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), so on a whim I decided to try the recovery USB key I'd made before. It's just kind of rebooting over and over asking if I want to continue to windows 10 or... use the key to recover.
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Ciaphas posted:I'll try a clean reinstall and the 10166 build, thanks. I didn't know how to reboot the machine and boot from the usb key I made, so I upgraded from within Windows. Probably accounts for several errors. For future reference, the hard restart I mentioned (power+volume down, release when the Surface logo appears) is also how you get what passes for UEFI options on the Surface, including changing the boot order. You can also tell it to boot from USB within Windows with UEFI (any 8.1 or 10 PC that isn't using legacy bios mode can do this) - search for advanced startup options in Recovery, when it reboots one of the options - other than recovery - will be boot off USB device if you have one plugged in.
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Jul 10, 2015 13:53
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wookieepelt posted:If you want to go back to 8.1 on a surface you might have to wipe your os first. I read an article on Windows Central about that before I took the plunge. Something about Windows 10 doesn't want to down grade even from a valid recovery USB. I can try to find the article and post it, but it was months ago and Microsoft could have fixed this issue by now. Probably old. I've rolled back to 8.1 once on my SP3 from 10 (build 10158, I was testing it specifically). That said, in the preview phase (and lets be honest to be safe anyway) just make a backup and flatten it, always. I know I sound like a broken record repeating this every page but I have done it many times and it's the de facto method used by most insiders (especially those of us with Surface devices): Get Macrium Reflect. The free version is fine. In fact the free version is kind of awesome, I worry that they may cripple it one day because there's no real reason to pay for it for private, home use (which so far they are fine with). Back up your whole device, recovery partition and all, to an external drive. As long as it's a decently fast drive (USB 3 is fine) you will be surprised at how fast this goes, especially if you are used to other imaging software. Verify the backup image. Seriously. Do this. Now just do a clean install. If you are on 8.1 and are using a Microsoft account to sign in a lot of your settings will be restored. If you use Chrome it will restore even more when you sign in. Little package installers like Ninite can take care of the rest of the little apps that are common (Chrome itself, Notepad++, whatever floats your boat). Personal docs, etc. - if you are using OneDrive you are already set, otherwise install Dropbox or SpiderOak if you are paranoid, GoogleDrive, whatever, and then you are set there. If you are keeping docs and files on a single local machine these days you haven't been keeping up. If you have games, these days all you need to do is back up your Steamapps, EA Games, or Ubi Games (or whatever) app directories, then copy those over, then just install and run whatever app it needs - Steam, Origin, whatever - and it will reinstall what it needs without re-downloading everything. Some games still keep saves in your userapps directory (particularly old ones) so be aware of that.
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Jul 10, 2015 16:57
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Ciaphas posted:So what's the correct way to do a clean windows 10 install on the surface 3? I feel dumb asking but booting from the win10 USB key and installing win10 in the normal way just leaves me with a tablet that freezes shortly after startup. Whenever I had trouble booting off a usb drive with the Surface it always came down to either the usb drive or how I created it. First question: What tool did you create the iso with? You should be using Rufus, and use UEFI mode for the boot option. Second, I would try another drive, if you have one, fully formatted. The Surface is wonkier than most about booting off USB for some reason. I was banging my head for a while until I switched drives then it booted right up. Also what preview build are you using? You should be using the official 10162 iso from Microsoft - use an md5 tool to verify the checksum too, to insure you got a good download of it. You can update easily to 10166 from there. There's no reason to use leaked or older builds at this point.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:37
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Ciaphas posted:Oh, it booted from the key I made okay--it got crash happy after booting into 10. Are you using the Pro edition .iso? For some reason I remember the preview builds not having Surface drivers on the Pro edition. The trick with those is do what you are thinking, download the Surface driver pack from Microsoft (the Windows 8.1 drivers are the same, the ones that need updating will do so after you have network) and install them. It's a little tedious at first but goes pretty quick. This I expect they will have corrected for RTM but who knows. Ciaphas posted:
All the Youtube apps in the store are poo poo, yes. Some of them I would flat out be suspicious of though Microsoft has gotten a little better about policing their crappy store. It's the browser for you, buddy. Ironically Chrome is currently the best full screen touch browser in Windows 10 at the moment so if you like Chrome anyway, lucky day.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:48
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