Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

California man punches self in face, claims police brutality in attempt to secure release from jail

White people :rolleyes:

# ¿ Feb 19, 2015 03:02

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 23:36

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

How are u posted:

This video get posted yet? Cops straight up murder a completely non-violent non-threatening mentally ill man in front of his god drat mother. 10 seconds from the door knock to loving murder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOfJcYUlqjo

I hate the police so loving much holy poo poo I'm seething.

A man holding a screwdriver? Probably just working on fixing something.

A black man holding a screwdriver? Clearly a threat, FUCKIN SHOOT HIM

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 19:31

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Is there some reason they couldn't taze him instead of ventilating him? Because this seems like exactly what Tasers were meant for.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 22:29

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

If he had a handgun he'd be protected by the 2ND AMENDMENT but a screwdriver doesn't qualify :smuggo:

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 23:09

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

I asked yesterday, but why didn't they use their tasers instead of their handguns? This type of situation is exactly what they're meant for.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 14:50

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

semper wifi posted:

You can't expect the cops to risk trying to taser the guy when he's that close. They might be cops but they're still human.

What's the time difference in firing a taser versus firing a handgun, considering either is already drawn and aimed? I'm willing to bet they're both much much much faster than the speed a man with a screwdriver can move.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 23:22

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

semper wifi posted:

You can see the taser mounted on the guy's belt on his off-hand side, it would have been slower to draw. It also doesn't look like either of them have their guns out initially, the cop on the right draws at 0:25. Plus you only get 1-2 shots (I think maybe they make ones with 4?) and like I said before in that kind of "oh poo poo" situation - I don't think you can blame them for just going for the guns.

Why would it have been slower to draw? They had plenty of time to draw their guns. Also, with multiple officers surrounding the guy, it seems entirely possible to have tased him or maced him or both just as easily as shooting him.

Also this

Rent-A-Cop posted:

The maximum effective range of a Taser is only about 20' to start with so I guess anyone in Taser range is too dangerous to Taser.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 23:54

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

nm posted:

The problem with tasers for deadly force incidents is that they malfunction a lot. One prong goes in, the other doesn't. I see that a lot with my clients who get tased (well attempted). That is fine for someone who is physically non-compliant or doesn't pose a deadly risk. The taser is a replacement for the club or pepper stray not the firearm.
I'm not saying he did nor did not pose such a risk here, I think the camera angle makes it unclear (and the police stories are going to be self-serving), but if he did, the close distance between him and the officers means that if the taser fails, there is no backup.

They had at least 5 seconds (actually a long time as these go) from the point of seeing the weapon (yelling commands to drawing the weapon), knowing he had MH issues. Instead of backing up and de-escalating, they either stood ground or even moved closer and barked orders. Regardless of what this guy did in those 5 seconds, if they had acted more appropriately for the situation this kid would be in a mental hospital somewhere.

I mean, I understand tasers malfunction sometimes, or doesn't get a solid hit, but it's still better for them to have shot him repeatedly. Also, they could have maced the poo poo out of him and backed away. Mace doesn't malfunction much at all, and it's easy as poo poo to aim. A guy with a screwdriver won't be much harm if he can't see and the officers are out of stabbing distance anyway

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:06

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Alright, so this fat 38 year old mentally challenged guy is resistant to mace, and impossible to hit with a taser, and was heard yelling "I WANT TO STAB A COP WITH THIS HERE SCREWDRIVER". gently caress it, just shoot him. :rolleyes:

How about they mace him, then while he's distracted and can't see (very well) they can tase him from behind. Then they can tackle and disarm him while he's incapacitated or use riot shields or something. My point is that they had a whole fuckload of other options available, but they decided to, yet again, escalate the situation immediately and then start shooting the scary scary black man

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:24

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Bob James posted:

Was it a Phillips head?

This is a good point. A knife can cut through kevlar, and a flat head at the right angle might be able to cut through the kevlar, but it's unlikely. A phillips probably wouldn't go through at all

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:56

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Florida Betty posted:

So today a white supremacist went on a shooting spree in Arizona, but the police were actually able to arrest him by tasering instead of shooting. Obviously it's not the same exact cops involved, so you can't make a direct comparison of the situations, but it still makes a pretty sharp contrast with the guy who was shot for having a screwdriver and not dropping it fast enough, or the one last week who was shot for being naked in public. Clearly it is possible to use non-violent means to subdue even extremely violent people if the police are actually willing to try.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :suicide:

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 02:23

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

nm posted:

It is also not the same as there was no indication that he was armed at the time of capture. The shooting was at 8;30AM, the capture was 1PM. That's a long time to become unarmed.

I think it's fair to assume that a spree shooter is probably very armed

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 02:35

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

nm posted:

If they tased him, it is quite unlikely. If you have a gun, cops don't care if you're white or black, they're gonna make you dead. Only without guns does it really come into play.
Also, he was apparently in his own apartment at the time, maybe he put it down to take a poo poo, I don't know.

I wonder how many screwdrivers were within reach :v:

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 02:44

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

From another thread:

Armyman25 posted:

I was watching Terminator 2 recently, and realized that the only person the LAPD kill in the movie is an unarmed black man, who they shoot without warning, meanwhile they give Arnold multiple warnings to drop his weapon as he was advancing on them before they started shooting, even after he had used a grenade launcher and minigun against them.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 18:44

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Vahakyla posted:

http://abc27.com/2015/03/24/hummelstown-police-officer-charged-with-homicide/

Are there any big differences between this shooting and the one where the cop shot a facedown guy in the back at the BART station several years ago? Other than the fact that this time, the guy they shot was white, of course. That guy just got Involuntary Manslaughter

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 03:39

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

The Larch posted:

I imagine it's harder to claim that you totally intended to draw your taser, no, seriously, when it's already in your hand and in use. If that's not an option there aren't really any excuses left that you can give.

Unless he was secretly a disguised sectoid commander. She must have run out of arc thrower uses and was forced to shoot him to prevent him from mind controlling anyone. She deserves a medal.

This is tangential to your point, but here's an interesting thing about Tasers: they're typically holstered on the opposite hip from the handgun, and they're also ~1/3 as heavy as a loaded Glock 17! :engleft:

Y'all probably already knew that though

# ¿ Mar 30, 2015 00:46

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

So, pretty much any cop who shoots an unarmed, possibly restrained, person and claims they "thought they were using their taser" is either straight up lying and expects everyone to believe it because it came from a cop, or the police are so poorly trained they can't even be bothered to look at/feel the device before using it on someone, which would explain the abysmal accuracy rate that police are known for.

I'm inclined to believe both :smith:

blunt for century fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Mar 31, 2015

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 12:52

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Rah! posted:

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/26/san-francisco-jail-gladiator-fights_n_6952220.html

But that's not all!

But how could anyone have known that this deputy was such a loving psycho?

Oh...yeah, that definitely sounds like someone that shouldn't be in jail themself, or at the very least fired. Let's let them keep their job!

The SF Sheriff's dept. is no stranger to gently caress ups though. Recently:

-a deputy robbed a bank
-a deputy beat a crippled old man in the hospital with no provocation, and then filed a false police report claiming he was assaulted
-a lieutenant was arrested for missing court-mandated domestic violence training
-a prisoner with federal drugs/weapons charges escaped from county jail after being accidentally assigned to a low-security detail taking out the trash with no restraints.
-prisoners getting abused
-the sheriff roughed up his wife

And then there's the SFPD bag of poo poo:

-the current police chief, Greg Suhr, was demoted years ago from deputy chief to captain, because he helped cover up an abuse scandal (some cops beat up some dudes and stole their fajitas) and more recently he fired an SFPD lawyer and her supervisor after she exposed Suhr's mishandling of a domestic violence case involving his friend.
-homicide inspectors immediately classified the murder of a French citizen as a suicide and neglected to investigate at all, which lead to french investigators, coroners from neighboring counties, and private investigators all looking into it, and saying "it's a murder, you loving idiots", and the SFPD responding with "no it's not" (PS: the medical examiner who was supposed to determine cause of death was the girlfriend of the lead inspector on the case)
-letting an evidence warehouse get overrun with feral cats
-shooting innocent bystanders
-the usual beating and intimidating people, and taking years to fire a problem officer who was known to constantly beat and intimidate people
-plain clothes officers conducting searches with no warrant, falsifying records, and stealing money and drugs from suspects
-losing a dead body in their own impound lot for a month while the murder suspects escaped to Mexico . Was it the SFPD's hard work that caught the suspects finally? Nope, it was some random dude from San Diego, who spent $150 on wanted posters, and drove to Mexico and handed them out .
-a crime lab technician stole cocaine from evidence and caused ~~700+~~ 1,700 (!!) cases to be thrown out
-another tech altered DNA evidence, and repeatedly failed proficiency tests (and the supervisor supposedly didn't notice), jeopardizing 1,400 cases...the SFPD is saying they were barred from handling evidence after failing the test, so why were they allowed to keep handling evidence?
-officers got caught sending racist and homophobic texts to each other

What else?

They also manipulated violent crime statistics to the extent that the total violent crime rate appeared 20% lower on any given year, by intentionally misclassifying all aggravated assaults involving domestic violence...meaning that SF's true violent crime rate over the past decade or more has often been on par/higher than places like Newark and Dallas, and almost as high as cities like Richmond California, and even New Orleans once or twice (it's extra funny because of the weird misconception many people have that SF is extra non-violent for a big US city). This was revealed back in 2009 by the police chief himself (George Gascon, who was new on the job and supposedly wanted to reform things. He's now the DA), but I only ever found two small articles about it in free local papers that not many people read; the SF Examiner and the SF Weekly.....which are both gone from the internet now ( I saved the stats from the articles though if anyone wants to see them). So it was 99% ignored by the media, and the two articles that did exist are no longer available. It wouldn't surprise me if there was massive pressure from the police commission or city government, or something, to try and keep it under wraps. It's not like similar cover ups haven't happened before in this city (the biggest ones i can think of are suppressing news coverage of the huge VJ-day WWII riot, and massively downplaying the death toll from the 1906 earthquake so investors wouldn't be scared away). What else could explain a big story like that getting almost zero media attention, even after the chief himself brought it up? I thought the media usually tripped over themselves to report on click-bait money-making poo poo like that? The SFPD seems to still be loving with the stats too, because the aggravated assault rate never spiked upwards after this was admitted, and actually dropped instead (which is one hell of a convenient coincidence for the SFPD, if it wasn't the result of continued stats-screwing). No one I've ever met knows about this, and now that the articles are gone, it makes me feel like a crazy person.

I guess the alternative explanation is that George Gascon was high as gently caress when he revealed the crime-stats screwing, and was actually wrong about it all, so it became a non-story.

Hell, several years ago the fraud unit was so overworked that they were expediting cases involving elderly victims, so that they wouldn't die before there was an investigation (the backlog of cases was so big that it would take months/years of work to investigate them all). Thankfully they eventually got more manpower but goddamn. The SFPD recently had one of the lowest homicide clearance rates for a big US city too. In 2007 and 2008 it was about on par with Detroit, at 25%-30%. The national average at the time was around 50%. The SFPD's clearance rate is now up to 60%-70% though, which is quite an improvement.

http://www.sfweekly.com/sanfrancisco/once-a-joke-sfpd-is-actually-solving-murders-these-days/Content?oid=2174812

There obviously needs to be some reform when it comes to policing and the justice system as a whole. And on that note, the DA is opening an investigation into law enforcement misconduct in SF:

http://abc7news.com/news/sf-da-to-investigate-law-enforcement-misconduct-allegations/590304/

Jesus. Christ.

I mean, goddamn

goddamn

e. also, quoted in order to make these links easier to find in the future

blunt for century fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Apr 2, 2015

# ¿ Apr 2, 2015 01:26

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

nm posted:

Also, you shouldn't think that is unique to SFPD.
SF just has a stronger Public Defender's office, IA, and the political will to do it.

I know it's not. It's just horrifying to see all that bullshit at once. :smith:

# ¿ Apr 2, 2015 14:49

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Will he be convicted, or will he get off on "i was scared"?

The second one probably :smith:

# ¿ Apr 7, 2015 22:49

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

He could watch a video of 30 klansmen beat and lynch a black man and he'd claim it was self defense

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 03:52

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

I followed a couple of related links on that filming cops article and found this: Cop Burns the Body of a 3-yr-old Child for �Not Letting Him Sleep�

quote:

The toddler did not belong to Marrone but was left in his care.
The 3-yr-old was found with severe burns all over his body � including his genital area � sources say.
Cody Marrone was charged with aggravated child abuse and child neglect.
At first, Marrone claimed that the child �did it to himself.�

But after deeper investigation, it was determined that the burns were not accidental.
They were intentionally inflicted on the child over and over again as the child screamed and cried, reports say.
After the investigation, Marrone finally admitted to using the scorching hot end of the hairdryer to burn the child�s body.
He said that he did it �as punishment� because the child wouldn�t let him sleep, according to reports.
Marrone was held in jail but has since been released on bail.
Meanwhile, one can only imagine whether the child has been traumatized for life.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 23:48

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

Life in prison is a death sentence

I'm hoping he gets like 15 years, then comes out a changed man, like becoming a civil rights activist or lobbying to reform the prison system. :unsmith:

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 01:46

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I want to know what will be done about in the other cops at the scene.

That's a good question. What are you referring to, specifically, though? Not rendering aid, but claiming to?

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 01:49

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Bel Shazar posted:

Accessory after the fact by not reporting the staging of the scene by the shooter

Oh yeah.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 01:51

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

since cops can't be trusted with body or dash cameras, we should use taxpayer funds for equipping black people with body and dash cameras instead

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 22:05

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

My Rhythmic Crotch posted:

I'm preserving a few of the more, eh, unhinged CNN comments before they're gone.

Welp

All I can see is "it's ok because he was black" several times, except more racist

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 03:30

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Obdicut posted:

Why are you talking about consistency? I'm saying that you can't allow the death penalty, at all, because there's no way to write "When you're really, really, really sure" in a legal fashion. There's no objective measure of the level of evidence.

has to get a unanimous vote in favor of the death penalty in the US Senate and Supreme Court on a case by case basis :unsmigghh:

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 22:56

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Powercrazy posted:

Better idea, Death Penalty is allowed, but the governor of the state has to be the one to carry it out and not by proxy, he has to actually pull the trigger, or push the button or whatever.

gently caress it, at that point, make it a beheading with a huge axe. That way we get rid of the flabby ancient conservatives

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 23:20

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Alastor_the_Stylish posted:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/video-shows-tulsa-man-shot-deputy-meant-stun-article-1.2181787

Grandpa meant to taze the subdued suspect, but shot him to death. Haha, ooooh grandpa you crazy old coot.

quote:

Sheriff�s Capt. Billy McKelvey claims the arresting officers were not aware Harris had been shot, despite the gunshot noise and Bates� admission. They called paramedics and firefighters, and rendered aid when they realized, McKelvey said.

�He made an inadvertent mistake,� McKelvey said.

Sgt. Dave Walker told the Tulsa World that police �would not investigate the death unless the sheriff�s office asked them to, and they have not asked us to.�

# ¿ Apr 12, 2015 18:38

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Pohl posted:

I'm more concerned about how they treated him after he was shot.

quote:

�He shot me! He shot me, man. Oh, my god. I�m losing my breath,� Eric Harris says as he struggles on the ground following the April 2 shooting, which flew under the radar until video emerged a week later.

�F--- your breath,� a callous officer can be heard saying. �Shut the f--- up!�
...
�You shouldn�t have f-----g ran!� another deputy screams, as Harris is held down by his neck and head.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2015 18:51

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Ghost of Reagan Past posted:

Violent crime rates (and crime rates generally) have been dropping for nearly 25 years now, so yes, people are breaking the law in fewer numbers than ever before.

Obviously that means that cops need to be even more violent and aggressive to make the crime rate continue falling! :v:

# ¿ Apr 13, 2015 04:43

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

PostNouveau posted:

If I were rich enough to make bail on a charge like that, I'd just Bob Durst it. Goodbye bail money, hello Cuba.

If he did try this, it would be hilarious if, in the effort to continue bettering relations, Cuba extradited him back to the US

# ¿ Apr 22, 2015 02:35

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

FRINGE posted:

Excited delirium is contagious. Its too bad cops dont wash their hands between civil rights abuses.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/video-contradicts-police-claims-about-black-man-who-died-jail-cell-after-arrest

"we didn't do nothin'! he dun got the vapors and keelt over"

# ¿ Apr 25, 2015 04:10

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

Radbot posted:

I'm seeing them on the Baltimore Sun homepage, where are you looking?

Fox News probably

# ¿ Apr 28, 2015 02:43

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

chitoryu12 posted:

Has there been any trouble with the National Guard presence? I remember that in Ferguson they were far more professional and less threatening than the police, partially because they were mostly restricted to defending a handful of important government and police areas far from the protests.

Watching the Ferguson livestreams, I don't even think all the Nat.Guard troops were even armed. Mostly it looked like they were standing around chatting and drinking bottled water.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2015 00:08

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

chitoryu12 posted:

I believe all of them were armed, but it was similar to the National Guard guys you see in New York City at places like the Port Authority Bust Terminal or Penn Station. They only have a handgun and three or four spare magazines, which they keep holstered when they're not preparing to use it. Generally the National Guard guys in NYC spend most of their time chatting and giving directions to tourists, though they get antsy if you stare at them too much.

Likewise, the ones in Ferguson were only armed with handguns at the most and kept them holstered. Because they knew they didn't need guns.

That was it. Holstered handguns. Much easier to forget seeing when both of their hands are free. The cops, however... :v:

# ¿ Apr 30, 2015 00:18

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

AbbadonOfHell posted:

My dad is similar, except I think he pretty much trusted the cops. Not so much anymore after the Freddy Gray and SC things, he pretty much compared the cops to Judge Dredd in the fact that they think they are Judge, Jury and Executioner and how that's kinda bullshit. (He didn't actually say Judge Dredd, but that was where my mind went.)

That coming from a life-long republican is kinda surprising to me.

My grandpa is super racist and super republican, though he hasn't voted since ~1950, and even he said that the way Michael Brown was killed was really suspicious and should be looked into more, and that Trayvon Martin was "proper murdered"

I was surprised to find that I actually agreed with him politically for the first time.

# ¿ May 1, 2015 04:31

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

SpeedGem posted:

Edit: police fundraising shirt, actual.

Goddamn. This is just savage.

# ¿ May 3, 2015 22:57

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 23:36

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

FuriousxGeorge posted:

Okay, recruit a few of them just to tag along with the young guys. They don't have to get physical. The young guys just have to look over and see if Nana thinks they are doing the right thing every once in a while.

Depending on the Granny, this might actually make the cops even more racist than they already are

# ¿ May 3, 2015 23:18

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