Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Vahakyla posted:

Unmarked patrol cars exist for the fact that they have more resale value, are more nicer to give take-a-homes as, work for non-emergency functions very well, etc etc while still being usable in routine patrol work.

I think you need to make a distinction between truly unmarked cars and the "stealth" black-on-black or white-on-white marked cars. It is the "stealth" cars people are more upset about and there's no pretending they get the more expensive paint job to just for resale value. It is to catch more traffic crimes, plain and simple and most departments are upfront about this. Now there is honest debate about if it is better to sneak up and catch a few in a stealth-paint with interior light bar or scare off more people with a black & white and regular light bar.

hobbesmaster posted:

You know most police helicopters spend most of their time as medevac right?

Are you getting this experience from NYC or some other place where police run EMT? Because that's mostly unheard of outside of disaster conditions everywhere I've been.

# ¿ May 19, 2015 04:07

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 02:35

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Any word on how many people killed in the Waco riot were killed by police? Last I heard the count was still unclear.

# ¿ May 19, 2015 14:04

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Rhesus Pieces posted:

I heard that segment too. There were quite a few supposed bikers calling in and pointing the finger at law enforcement-affiliated biker gangs for sparking the Waco shoot out. The detective on the panel specializing in outlaw bikers was of course having none of it.

That reminded me, lets check in on those cops that ran a guy off the road as part of a motorcycle gang....

Oh right, the trial is just beginning.

Lets check in on their arguments:

quote:

Biker cop Wojciech Braszczok could not have done real damage to the back window of a Tribeca dad�s SUV during a frenzied gang attack on the motorist in 2013, according to an engineering study his defense lawyers commissioned.

Braszczok, who worked as an undercover NYPD detective before he was suspended, was one of 11 riders indicted for the Sept. 29, 2013, beating of Alexian Lien during a chase up the Henry Hudson Parkway. All but one were charged with gang assault and faced up to 25 years behind bars.

In the 24-page document filed in November, consultant Michael Kravitz analyzed the properties of toughened safety glass, human bone structure and the 2012 Range Rover model driven by Lien.

In footage from the time of the attack, Braszczok can be seen on his bike at the rear of the SUV, apparently empty-handed, swinging his fist at the back window, the report says. Kravitz said that had the significant hole been made with Braszczok�s hand, �he would have broken bones in his hand and/or wrist.�

He concluded the initial hole was made by a roughly 2-inch hard object that was thrown from a distance while Braszczok was riding directly behind the car.

Braszczok�s hand appears to be smashing the window, but really it�s just crushing an existing hole, the report concludes.

And lets see how they're describing their behavior:

quote:

Prosecutors charge Braszczok, who faces gang assault and related counts, not only failed to follow NYPD protocol in the situation by reporting a crime or intervening if possible, but he engaged in the mayhem "he helped create."

"There's no claim that (Braszczok) ever laid a hand on Alexian Lien, but he very much terrorized that family," Assistant District Attorney Joshua Steinglass said in his opening statement.

"This defendant's conduct was far more egregious than failing to take police action," he added.

Steinglass called the bloody attack a product of "the classic mob mentality where perfect strangers came together to terrorize this family and ultimately beat Alex Lien severely."

Braszczok and Sims opted for a bench trial before Justice Maxwell Wiley.

They are the remaining two riders who refused plea offers in an indictment against 11 people � all but one of whom were charged with gang assault as a top count, which carries up to 25 years behind bars.

Most took deals for little or no jail time, but Braszczok previously rejected an offer of a year behind bars in exchange for a plea to assault and riot for the Sept. 29, 2013, incident, which was caught on video in cellphone, GoPro and iPad footage.

His attorney, John Arlia, told the judge Braszczok had no intent to hurt Lien or his family, and that he was only chasing him, reacting like a cop, after seeing Lien mow down Mieses.

Yup, punching through a broken window to make the hole bigger is just normal cop behavior. Just like participating in dangerous criminal activities and not stopping someone getting beaten and just driving off (never calling 911 or reporting anything in the meanwhile) is "reacting like a cop."

Also there are texts from the officer from the day before that are were concerning enough his handler was worried (with bonus OWS police surveillance):

quote:

�Mayhem... going through red lights, tricks and s--t,� said an unidentified undercover detective, recalling the text he received on Sept. 28, 2013�one day before a group of bikers pulled Alexian Lien from his Range Rover in Washington Heights and beat him bloody as his wife and daughter watched on.
...
The colleague, who served as Braszczok�s �handler� while the biker cop was working undercover during Occupy Wall Street, said the troubled NYPD detective quickly reversed course after his boasts about the massive Sunday ride, which eventually drew hundreds of bikers from across the city.

�When he called me I said, �Why are you texting me this s--t?� And he goes, �I�m only kidding, man.��

Oh yeah and of course the good part:

quote:

Assistant District Attorney Joshua Steinglass vehemently opposed letting the Polish native return home. �The defendant, according to his passport itself, was born in Poland which makes for a much thornier extradition should the defendant decide to remain in Poland,� Steinglass said.
Wiley ruled Braszczok will be given back his passport no earlier than May 8 and must turn it back in May 20 or else he�ll face bail-jumping charges.
The cop, who is still on active duty with the NYPD, is accused of being part of mob of motorcyclists who yanked Columbia grad Alexian Lien, 33, out of his Range Rover and savagely beat him in front of his wife and infant daughter.

# ¿ May 20, 2015 20:28

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Dahn posted:

Well maybe the problem is "to many cops".

Cop to Joe citizen ratios by city

I think you'll find too few cops brews just as much corruption.

# ¿ May 20, 2015 22:16

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

ToxicSlurpee posted:

...what the gently caress does aggravated menacing even mean?

He had a toy gun and scared a person by having it.

quote:

No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person's unborn, or a member of the other person's immediate family

# ¿ May 21, 2015 18:25

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Powercrazy posted:

Why is response time even a concern?

Because there's this fantasy that SWAT mainly gets used for responding to shooters, terrorists and evil villains instead of serving no-knock or knock-via-battering ram warrants.

Besides, just because something is federal doesn't mean everyone has to be stationed in DC.

Edit: lets have some numbers:

quote:

62 percent of the SWAT raids surveyed were to conduct searches for drugs.

Just under 80 percent were to serve a search warrant, meaning eight in 10 SWAT raids were not initiated to apprehend a school shooter, hostage taker, or escaped felon (the common justification for these tactics), but to investigate someone still only suspected of committing a crime.

In fact, just 7 percent of SWAT raids were �for hostage, barricade, or active shooter scenarios.�

In at least 36 percent of the SWAT raids studies, no contraband of any kind was found. The report notes that due to incomplete police reports on these raids this figure could be as high as 65 percent.

SWAT tactics are disproportionately used on people of color.

65 percent of SWAT deployments resulted in some sort of forced entry into a private home, by way of a battering ram, boot, or some sort of explosive device. In over half those raids, the police failed to find any sort of weapon, the presence of which was cited as the reason for the violent tactics.
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/06/24/new-aclu-report-takes-a-snapshot-of-police-militarization-in-the-united-states/)

Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 23:28 on May 21, 2015

# ¿ May 21, 2015 23:21

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

^
Don't mind him, he's from bizzaro-America where the Boston PD is good and their SWAT team stopped the Boston bombings.

hobbesmaster posted:

I'm having trouble following. Everyone in this thread probably agrees the no knock military style raids are ridiculous and should be eliminated. That leaves SWAT to handle pretty much just active shooters, major hostage situations and the like which sounds good.

But, time matters in these things. There already exists a federal SWAT team that deploys the way you want called the FBI HRT. They arrived in Boston while Jahar was bleeding out in some random guy's boat. Of course after that you could argue that SWAT teams are unnecessary in the first place; the patrolmen will be the only ones that actually engage and everything will end before any reinforcements can arrive.

You're right, once we reduce SWAT use by 90% it won't matter as much who the SWAT team works for. But until then, removing the paramilitary from the police could be a very good thing.

# ¿ May 21, 2015 23:47

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

The Boston Bombing is actually a pretty good example at how much SWAT teams suck at the one thing they're supposedly meant to do:

quote:

In the end, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev wasn�t found by Guardsmen, a commando team or a police officer in an armored vehicle. After the shelter in place had been lifted, he was spotted by a resident of Watertown who saw something unusual in his back yard and called the police. Only then did SWAT teams respond to apprehend the suspected bomber. (More on that later.) For such a massive show of force, the fugitive was captured in a pretty conventional manner.
...

But on Laurel Street, rounds flew into parked cars and police vehicles and chewed up fences and trees. A round entered the home of Andrew Kitzenberg on the north side of the street and lodged in a chair. Another ripped through the exterior wall of Adam Andrew and Megan Marrer�s house and landed on their living room floor.

More than a dozen officers suffered minor injuries during the mayhem, but none was believed to have been wounded by the suspects. The only serious wound was suffered by Richard Donohue, a transit cop with the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, who was hit in the groin by a police bullet and began to bleed profusely.

In the end, the two suspects had one gun between them and probably fired no more than 10 bullets. In his testimony before the Senate Homeland Security Committee, Davis credited federal funding for equipment such as armored vehicles, robots and other gear. That gear �allowed us to take Dzhokhar Tsarnaev into custody alive.� But that doesn�t jibe with what actually happened when the police apprehended Tsarnaev. Again from NBC:

The commander on scene was able to deploy the tactical team and establish a perimeter, says the report, but his control was only partial because there were so many extra, �self-deployed� bodies arriving.

A member of one SWAT team tried to take up a position on a rooftop, only to find that a member of a different SWAT team was on the same roof. After an argument, neither man would budge.

At around 7 p.m., a voice on the police radio issued a warning, �There�s a perp in the boat trying to poke a hole in the liner, a perp in the boat. Live party who may be trying to object out, live party in the boat confirmed.�

Tsarnaev was pushing a long, thin object up through the boat covering. The object later turned out to be a fishing gaff, which Tsarnaev may have been trying to use to push up the tarp so he could see out.

But one of the snipers on the roof saw the object and began shooting. It sparked a round of what is known as �contagious fire,� where other officers with their fingers on the trigger began peppering the boat with bullets.

The commander began shouting for the officers to cease fire, but the fusillade went on for 10 seconds. Hundreds of rounds were expended.

When the shooting stopped, order was restored. The FBI�s hostage rescue team used a robotic arm to pull the wrapping off the boat. Flash grenades thrown at the craft were meant to stun Tsarnaev, and he was urged via bullhorn to surrender.

In other words, it was really only through dumb luck (or poor aim) that Tsarnaev was taken alive. And as it turns out, he was unarmed. The proliferation of SWAT teams across the country has in large part been due to federal anti-drug grants, federal giveaways of military equipment and Department of Homeland Security anti-terror grants. And in Watertown, there were clearly too many SWAT guys at the scene, not too few.

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/04/22/the-police-response-to-the-boston-marathon-bombing/)

SWAT didn't really help stop the bombing, they didn't help prevent the killing of the MIT police officer, they didn't help find the last suspect, and while they did "help" in his capture, they did so while injuring each other against an unarmed opponent.

hobbesmaster posted:

You see "Jahar" is pronounced like "joker"
___________/

Well, that makes more sense. :downs:

# ¿ May 22, 2015 00:03

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

VitalSigns posted:

I like how if black people protest, they're race-baiting, and if white people protest they're inauthentic

If those kids wanted to protest, they should have been pro-police, duh.

# ¿ May 22, 2015 22:27

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Yeah, if those kids wanted the respect that professional protesters get, they should have gone to college first!

# ¿ May 22, 2015 23:01

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Exactly. They should leverage their significant social and financial resources to change our institutions for the better. I'm glad we're on the same page VitalSigns.

Edit: Both literally and figuratively.

Exactly how do you propose they more effectively do so than by protesting? Oh that's right, call up the (lone) congressman they apparently know by being *rich kids* and magically reform police that way. Because if a few white people called their congressman, police reform would just automatically happen.

Critique their protest planning by all means, but it is a fantasy that somehow they could do something more effective than protest in the meantime.

# ¿ May 22, 2015 23:11

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Doctor Butts posted:

Cleveland police to stop hitting people on heads with guns as part of Justice Department agreement

That article title!

Its so funny but sad at the same time.

Or how about this:

quote:

Workers who fix elevators in the city�s housing projects have been ordered to wear bright-orange vests by supervisors calling NYPD cops �trigger-happy,�� sources told The Post.
The edict came down from city Housing Authority brass after an officer fatally shot an unarmed man in the stairwell of a Brooklyn complex and other cops accidentally pulled a gun on a maintenance crew, sources said.
�[The elevator workers] were basically told the reason was because of recent incidents where cops had pulled a gun on a caretaker and a supervisor on the roof of a housing project,� a source said.
�No one got shot, but they also referred to the cop shooting and were told, �We�re doing this for your protection. Your lives are in jeopardy, and we don�t want you to get hurt,� � the source said

(http://nypost.com/2015/05/25/city-housing-puts-workers-in-bright-vests-in-fear-of-nypd-shootings/)

City workers having to wear reflective vests so that the cops don't mistake them for a housing resident and shoot them....

# ¿ May 26, 2015 21:36

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

nm posted:

This is loving awful:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_attorney.html

Basically Orange County DA and Sheriff were colluding to procure snitches, place them near suspects, and instructed them to get confessions from people who lawyered up. Remember that snitches lie at a huge rate (because they have a reason to). They then hid this from the defense and the court.

Given the length of time and persons involved, it almost certainly ruined more lives than police shootings in Orange County.

Bet no one gets disbarred for it though.

Here's a choice quote from that article that highlights the systemic nature of the illegal abuse by DAs & the Sheriff's department:

quote:

In an explosive moment following a hearing last year, Sanders revealed that the Orange County Sheriffs Department has maintained a massive, secret, 25-year-old computerized record-keeping system called TRED. These TRED documents were full of potentially exculpatory data, but the agency officials had systematically refused to turn any of them over, or even acknowledge their very existence, to defense counsel.

In his March order, Goethals wrote: �It is now apparent that the discovery situation in this case is far worse than the court previously realized. In fact, a wealth of potentially relevant discovery material�an entire computerized data base built and maintained by the Orange County Sheriff over the course of many years which is a repository for information related directly to the very issues that this court was examining as a result of the defendant�s motion�remained secret, despite numerous specific discovery orders issued by this court, until long after the initial evidentiary hearing in this case was concluded and rulings were made.�

Laura Fernandez of Yale Law School, who studies prosecutorial misconduct, says it�s amazing that both the sheriff�s office and the DA�s office worked together to cover up the misconduct: �From my perspective,� she says, �what really sets Orange County apart is the massive cover-up by both law enforcement and prosecutors�a cover-up that appears to have risen to the level of perjury and obstruction of justice. Law enforcement officers and prosecutors in Orange County have gone to such lengths to conceal their wide-ranging misconduct that they have effectively turned the criminal justice system on its head: dismissing charges and reducing sentences in extraordinarily serious cases, utterly failing to investigate unsolved crimes and many murders (by informants�in order to prevent that evidence from ever getting to defense lawyers), while simultaneously pushing forward where it would seem to make no sense (except that it conceals more bad acts by the state), as in the case of an innocent 14-year old boy who was wrongfully detained for two years.�

So not only did they lie and hide a database of exculpatory evidence, but they let their snitches off of major crimes including murders to prevent defense attorneys from knowing about their corruption and misconduct.

Sadly, I would be shocked if a single person in law enforcement saw a jail cell over this.

# ¿ May 29, 2015 02:06

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

It's strange that they didn't have some kind of mental health care worker with them. Wouldn't you need some kind of expert there to talk the guy down enough to be take into custody and transported? It seems like the police should never have been there without help from an expert.

Its almost as if the police treat the mentally ill like criminals....

# ¿ May 29, 2015 18:18

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

ToxicSlurpee posted:

So what percentage of situations does a cop face that ends up with him needing certain pieces of equipment? If you took away a police officer's entire arsenal (and yes I do mean literally all of it) what kind of danger would he be in on an average day walking the beat?

That leads towards another question: what percent of police patrol time is spent on walking beats anymore?

# ¿ May 29, 2015 20:40

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Samurai Sanders posted:

I've been hearing this for a bit in this thread but how is the police looking scary not part of the problem?

See if you dare mention the fact that he had a rifle in his hands, which prevented him from taking any other action but shooting his victim, well you're being hysterical and really should only care if the officer had mental health training, rather than if they entered the apartment ready to kill and do nothing else.

# ¿ May 30, 2015 19:25

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Dead Reckoning posted:

The problem is that once again you're shocked and appalled by a case without having any realistic, worthwhile suggestions about how the law should be different. Personally, I'm fine with the law giving property owners the benefit of the doubt when confronting tresspassers.

To what degree? Do you think anyone killed by a landowner on their property without permission is a good kill? That is, as soon as you violate the rights of anyone's property does your right to life end? Or only if the landowner wants to do so?

Do you think the landowner who purposely left a door unlocked to catch trespassers and shoot them was lawful?

# ¿ May 31, 2015 22:25

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Dead Reckoning posted:

if I live alone, how much identification do I have to do in order to determine that the person in my home at 2:00 AM isn't supposed to be there? Should I have to give a, "Halt, who goes there?" like an old timey sentry?

What if instead the hypothetical is: you've abandoned a building for almost a decade and decide to sneak up on some people who broke into it in the middle of the night?

Should seeing a scary arm be enough justification to kill those people? What if it was just a scary noise or a scary thought?

How little justification for my fear do I need to kill someone who broke into an abandoned building I own? Since we shouldn't dare to second guess someone who saw an arm and thought it was a gun.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2015 08:11

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

twodot posted:

Again, the danger the person sought to avoid was being shot by the gun they believed was being pointed at them. That seems pretty pressing to me. While I agree that factually he was the attacker (as no such gun was recovered), the law posted calls for two things, that the person actually believed they were in danger (which you so far haven't denied) and that the response was reasonable to the perceived danger. I see an argument if he did something aggressive prior perceiving a gun pointed at him, but there's no evidence for that. (I can't consider entering your own property to be aggressive)

So do you think this man shouldn't be convicted of murder?

quote:

Michael Dunn, 47, is charged with first-degree murder in the death of Jordan Davis on 23 November 2012.
The software engineer says he feared for his life when he opened fire on Davis, 17, and three other teenagers in a row at a Jacksonville petrol station.
The case has drawn comparisons with the shooting of Trayvon Martin.
Martin, 17, was gunned down in an Orlando suburb in February 2012 by a neighbourhood watchman, George Zimmerman, who claimed self-defence and was acquitted.
Mr Dunn faces life in prison if convicted of Davis' murder.
'Local thug'
He has said he asked the car full of teenagers to turn down their stereo, but that Davis refused and the two exchanged words.
In public, we can't all walk around acting like we are in our home, telling people what to do in a public place
Ron Davis, Father of deceased Jordan Davis
He alleges he saw a gun barrel pointed out the window at him before he opened fire, but police found no weapon in the teenagers' vehicle.

I mean, just because there wasn't a gun doesn't mean he didn't really believe there was one, right?

# ¿ Jun 1, 2015 17:06

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

FRINGE posted:

Here comes Bernie.

http://www.alternet.org/bernie-sanders-pledges-end-no-child-left-behind-shut-down-profit-prisons

To be fair, pretty much everyone from Rand leftward says things like that. Even Obama did, and we see what outcomes we got from all those words.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 08:38

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Waco Panty Raid posted:

It wasn't even on point. Hence the "merely."

And I don't think that entering your own property is akin to "picking a fight."

When you've abandoned your property for a decade then decide to visit it at night, yeah it kinda is.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 17:04

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Waco Panty Raid posted:

Too bad it can easily be misinterpretted. Probably a good idea to not put yourself in such a situation where it can be misinterpreted.

Like knocking on the door of a house for help after a car crash or checking out the shed at the house you just bought. All things that are good ideas not to do because they can be misinterpreted as something worth killing over apparently.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 18:24

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Waco Panty Raid posted:

Are you referring to the case where the drunk driver knocked on the door hours after fleeing help at the scene of the crash? Guy was stupid and jumpy and I have no problem with him being convicted once it was clear he had fired through a door.

I'm not sure what the shed case is referring to.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/01/_confused_west_virginia_man_kills_new_african_american_neighbor.html

quote:

Rodney Bruce Black, 62, told authorities that he thought his victims were breaking into a building he owned. However, although the building is on land that once belonged to Black�s family, that was not the case anymore.

One of the victims, Garrick Hopkins, 60, and his wife had just purchased the property next door to Black and were planning to build a house within the next few weeks, Sheriff Tom McComas told the Daily News on Monday. Hopkins invited his brother, Carl, who was 61, to inspect the property with him Saturday afternoon.

Black saw the two men looking into a shed and, allegedly without warning or calling the police, took his rifle and fired at the men. They died at the site. Both men leave behind their wives and children.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 18:37

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

The fact that store owners can't shoot shoplifts who have been banned from the store if they trespass by entering the store again is a good thing.

But yet, its a bridge too far to hold abandoned property owners to the same bar.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 20:53

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

pacmania90 posted:

But that's wrong. Shoplifters have no special legal protections.

And yet shop owners can't shoot them for walking in the door even if they're trespassing because they're banned. Even if they're 100% that dude is going to steal some M&Ms again.

Its almost as if vigilante murders are always illegal and someone doesn't need special legal protections to get a right to life.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 21:34

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

pacmania90 posted:

I agree completely. What does your example have to do with the case in Nevada, though?

People are arguing that if a shop owner said "well, his arm looked like a gun" before shooting the unarmed person criminally trespassing then the kill is completely justified and shouldn't be second guessed.

I don't think the magic words "I felt threatened" should be sufficient to legitimize the killing of unarmed people regardless of if the killer has a badge or not.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 00:23

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

GlyphGryph posted:

So what about the those 250 Orange County DAs being barred from dealing with a case because of systemic conspiracy to undermine justice and all that perjury and poo poo?

A few bad apples :v:

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 19:50

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

soundnthefury posted:

The investigation of the Tamir Rice shooting has taken its next step towards nobody being held responsible (probably).

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-tamir-rice-investigation-complete-20150603-story.html

This article has a source saying the investigation found the shooting justified:

quote:

CLEVELAND - The Cuyahoga County Sheriff's investigation of the shooting of a 12-year-old boy at a Cleveland rec center concluded that the shooting was justified, a source familiar with the case told newsnet5.com.

The Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Office has turned its investigation into the shooting of Tamir Rice over to the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office.

(http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/tamir-rice-shooting-investigation-moves-to-cuyahoga-county-prosecutors-office?fd)

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 20:16

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Ima Grip And Sip posted:

Meh, low effort. The cops had nothing to do with those charges except serving the paperwork. Everything was filed by the school district. Thread status: still off the rails.

Wait, so all I have to do is file some paperwork against people yelling in the street and the police are required to charge those people?

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 21:16

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Can this thread agree?

Using SWAT to check for code violations is bad:

quote:

On April 28, Zorich called the police to follow up on the matter. An officer told her they were investigating the home for failing to have natural gas or electric service, as required by county ordinance. She admitted that the gas had been shut off, but said the claim about electricity was "bullshit." The officer hung up on her.
Zorich called back and spoke to a different officer. This one sounded angry that he'd been cussed at by her son three days earlier. Zorich tried to set up an inspection for a time when her husband would be home. The officer told her that was fine, but that the investigation would continue in the meantime.

The next day, around 12:41 p.m., Zorich was at home with several family members and her pit bull, Kiya, when a St. Louis County Police Tactical Response Unit burst through the door without knocking, according to her suit. The unit had at least five officers with M-4 rifles, supported by at least eight uniformed officers.

The officers entered so quickly, Zorich's suit alleges, that Kiya didn't even have time to bark. A tactical officer fired three shots into the dog, and the dog's "bladder and bowels released and she fell to the floor." The dog "was laying on the floor in her own waste and blood struggling to breathe. She had a gaping hole in her chest."

Zorich claims the officers kept trying to talk to her about the natural gas, but she was focused on her dog, whom she'd raised as a puppy and who (she says) had "never shown agression to any person."

At one point in the raid, Zorich alleges, an officer pointed his firearm at her son's head and said "One word, motherfucker, and I'll put three in you."

Zorich was taken into custody and later given a notice of violation from the Housing Inspector. It listed citations concerning her siding, guard rail, screens, window glass and deck.

When she returned home, she found beds overturned and items that had been on her shelves thrown to the floor.

(http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2015/06/swat_team_kills_family_dog.php)

A SWAT team used to arrest and bust someone over out of code "siding, guard rail, screens, window glass and deck" . Of course they shot the dog, but that's SOP.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2015 20:26

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

mlmp08 posted:

Every active shooting where a beat cop killed the shooter. There you go. Those cases, at least, are unimpeachable. You could argue they are rare and still favor disarmed cops but if you want an example of a beat cop killing a person to stop deaths immediately, mission complete.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...n-2000-and-2013

From your source:

quote:

As a result, the FBI identified 160 active shooter incidents that occurred in the United States between 2000 and 2013. Though additional active shooter incidents may have occurred during this time period, the FBI is confident this research captured the vast majority of incidents falling within the search criteria. To gather information for this study, researchers relied on official police records (where available), FBI records, and open sources. The
time span researched was intended to provide substantive results to aid in preparedness and response efforts. This study is not intended to explore all facets of active shooter incidents, but rather is intended to provide a baseline to guide federal, state, tribal, and campus law enforcement along with other first responders, corporations, educators, and the general public to a better understanding of active shooter incidents.

Cops have killed more people this year than have responded to active shooter incidents in the last decade.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2015 04:38

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Dead Reckoning posted:

That... doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the question he was answering. Also, I see we are back to assuming every person killed by the police was killed unlawfully.

Are we only allowed to use sources for one purpose now?

Also... back to making assumptions about what people are saying. I didn't say they unlawfully killed those people, just that they did. Any assumptions you make are your own.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2015 06:09

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Radish posted:

We are a nation of Gladys Kravitz.

I'm holding out on being outraged since as Pohl says CPS typically isn't that powerful so either something incredibly hosed up happened or there's more to this.

Its not like that'd be the first time Police & CPS investigated over a kid playing *outdoors* and *alone*:

quote:

Kari Anne Roy, a writer and mom of three from Austin, said the ugly incident began earlier this month after a neighbor she didn't know spotted her 6-year-old son playing in a field across the street from their house.

The woman brought the boy home, saying he needed to be inside "with an adult," Roy wrote on her blog.

"She motioned to a park bench about 150 yards from my house. A bench that is visible from my front porch," Roy wrote, adding that the boy had been with his 8-year-old sister and their dog before the girl brought the dog inside.

But the awkward encounter with the "well-meaning but overvigilant" neighbor got serious a short time later when a police officer showed up at her door.

'There are not a lot of times in one's life when you can use a word like "flabbergasted" without hyperbole, but this was one of those times,' Roy, a children's book writer, wrote on her blog.

'There are not a lot of times in one's life when you can use a word like "flabbergasted" without hyperbole, but this was one of those times,' Roy, a children's book writer, wrote on her blog.
"The police officer asked if my son had been outside alone. She asked why I thought it was OK for him to be unsupervised," Roy wrote
....
Days later, Roy said, an agent from child protective services showed up to her home and questioned her kids, who are 6, 8 and 12.

Roy said the agent spoke to the children alone, one-by-one, and quizzed them about drugs, alcohol, pornography and how often they bathed.

Roy spoke to local KEYE-TV about the experience.

"My 8-year-old was very concerned about the questions they asked her, about had she seen people's private parts or movies of that sort of thing," she said.

"These are things she had never really thought of or had known existed," she said. "I was humiliated and really angry after that. Really, really angry.

Austin Police confirmed there was an investigation into child endangerment claims at the home, but the case was eventually closed after no wrongdoing was found.

(http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/neighbor-calls-cops-child-services-texas-mom-letting-son-play-article-1.1943118)

Here's the mom's OpEd with more details: http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/sunday-commentary/20140925-the-vilification-of-outdoor-play.ece

# ¿ Jun 11, 2015 20:33

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Injuries to employees are significantly less expensive than injuries to the public. Bad press is worse than a few minimum wage chumps getting beat up. Both the police and private security are likely instructed to do absolutely the bare minimum and are only really there so the park can get an insurance break.

Usually municipalities require a minimum number of officers to be hired based on the number of attendees. These officers often have no clue about crowd control and have absolutely no desire to do anything but stand there.

One trick I've seen employed is to separately hire officers above and beyond the "standing around minimum" give them different schedules and assign them someone from the event as their dispatch. Then send them around to shut down all the lawbreakers as needed.

I think its just based on expectations about the shift. If you've been told you're getting paid overtime to stand around then get asked to actually work, well you probably will half-rear end it. But if you're being paid overtime to walk around and shutdown illegal street vendors or force trucks out of no parking zones you'll probably be more likely to actually do it.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2015 21:39

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Rent-A-Cop posted:

I think you're right.

In my experience cops will actually do poo poo if the people who hired them for the off-duty work ask them to. I regularly work a major public event that hires hundreds of police for about two weeks at a time and those guys are great. They do pretty much whatever you ask them to and are proactive in making sure poo poo doesn't get out of hand. It's a big, professional operation and they have an established hierarchy, a dispatch center, etc.

When I work with local cops who are working a day at a concert or whatever though they usually just chill on the loading dock bullshitting and smoking with everyone else. It's pretty well understood that if they "cause trouble" that they aren't going to get asked back so they just take the paycheck and stand around unless poo poo goes totally sideways.

Funny, I think we both work events of about the same size/scope. Things are now the way you describe, but before we were as tightly integrated into the PD command, things were a lot more loosey-goosey, especially with officers refusing to help with crowd control situations and only breaking up fights or busting people for PI. It took name dropping the correct Lieutenant to get them to actually do anything else.

There's a fine line cops walk at big events, be too chill and you get fired for a selfie or for dancing. Be too aggressive and you won't get asked back because you busted an artist for smoking pot.

chitoryu12 posted:

We still get plenty of "injuries to the public". There's multiple tasings, pepper sprays, and college kids thrown to the ground per year, plus cops literally sprinting through crowds to chase after people. It's just that they actually bother to pursue a fraction of the crime and violence and are paying so little attention that they barely notice the rest even when it happens almost literally under their nose.

The only times my cast in 2012 was able to get police attention successfully were:

1. Someone punching an actor (who's a firefighter outside of Universal) in the nose and angering him enough to actually fight back, with the beating lasting long enough for security and police to pull them apart.

2. A large group of Central or South American tourist youths who began roughhousing and bodyslamming an actor until he was nearly thrown to the ground. It took most of our cast boxing in the perpetrators and one of them running around the zone throwing his arms up in the "Need help immediately" signal to keep them stationary enough to find police and staff and get their attention. Even then, several of them ran off without the officers pursuing them and they only got found after the cops threatened to arrest everyone remaining unless they brought their friends back to be permabanned from the park.

That reminds me of some of the stories I've heard from the years before we hired a consultant to help us speak ICS/police language. Seriously, that made a huge difference because it started to click that "oh, if this person radios in a request, its important" once we could tell them the police names for things.

I think that's a big adjustment too between event people and cops because, most events rely on fairly autonomous staff. If you're a sound engineer and something breaks, you fix it. But cops are used to very hierarchical structures, someone needs to tell their boss to tell them to fix it. So in the chaos of the moment, if you don't have strong systems in place then you'll end up begging a random cop on the street which doesn't work well.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2015 22:19

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Cichlid the Loach posted:

Seriously, it's not those poor officers' fault that Garner turned out to be secretly obese and asthmatic. How were they supposed to know he was obese just by looking at him? And how the HELL were they supposed to know he had problems breathing just by him saying so?

Plus, they always say "I can't breathe" when you have them in a neck-lock, how were the officers to know he wasn't lying?

# ¿ Jun 14, 2015 01:15

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Jose posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/14/woman-strip-searched-lwins-damages-met-police

The police in the UK can also not be trusted to help someone who clearly needs it, arresting them instead. At least nobody got killed

This isn't just a case of a woman being roofied complaining about being strip searched:

quote:

When the police arrived the woman was arrested and taken to a cell. She said: �My drink had been spiked and the police should have helped me. Instead I remember being in a cell with strange men putting their hands on me and taking my clothes off. I believed I was being raped and remember screaming in fear.�

The investigation into the incident revealed that the woman was held down in the cell by four male police officers and a female officer. Every item of her clothing was forcibly removed, and her bra was cut from the front of her body. She was then left naked in the cell for half-an-hour with the CCTV camera broadcasting the images back to the custody desk.

She later woke in a hospital bed with no memory of what had happened and minus her clothes. Now 26, the woman said she believed the officers had treated her in the way they did because she was black. According to the woman, when she came round in hospital she spoke to the police officer at her bedside, who said she was very well spoken and asked where she was born. When the woman replied�Hampstead�, the officer radioed a colleague and was overheard saying: �I think we made a mistake..�

Of course the police still haven't apologized or admitted wrongdoing:

quote:

A spokesman for the Met said: �The claim arose from an arrest in March 2011. Officers arrested a woman for a public order offence. She was charged and bailed to court for four counts of assault on a constable. The matter was discontinued due to insufficient evidence. We do not disclose settlement amounts.�

# ¿ Jun 14, 2015 20:06

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

pentyne posted:

Animal sex isn't illegal in a lot of states. Its one of those things you think would be banned everywhere but it turns out its not. Same with loving corpses, people who get caught doing it have to be charged with illegal removal of medical waste or something. The only way you can get someone on an animal sex charge in some places is by charging them with animal cruelty.

The judge dismissed the case because the judge decided the grand jury wouldn't be able to decide if having sex with animals was tormenting them.

# ¿ Jun 15, 2015 09:26

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Meanwhile, on the topic of pretrial abuse:

quote:

A Manhattan man has spent nearly all of the past seven years locked up on Rikers Island awaiting trial � a dubious record for pretrial incarceration that is not likely to end anytime soon, experts told The Post.

Carlos Montero, now 24, was with two pals when one fatally stabbed a man and the other slashed another during a robbery in Washington Heights on Oct. 23, 2008, authorities have charged.

Montero, who has spent six years and eight months in Rikers, attempted to get his case tried separately � while one of his alleged cohorts fights the DNA evidence � but the judge balked, and his lawyer won�t even seek bail for him now because he says it�s a lost cause.

�I�m depressed in here. I just want to go home,�� said Montero, who entered the jail at age 17.

The state statute that is supposed to guarantee a prisoner�s right to a speedy trial � within 180 days � doesn�t apply to murder cases.

There also is a right to a reasonably rapid proceeding under the Sixth Amendment, but the US Constitution doesn�t lay out a timeline.

So Montero is still waiting for his day in court, even after 77 appearances in Manhattan Supreme Court before Justice Ronald Zweibel � and 2,423 days behind bars.

(http://nypost.com/2015/06/15/kid-arrested-at-17-has-been-at-rikers-awaiting-trial-for-7-years/)

# ¿ Jun 15, 2015 22:28

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 02:35

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

DARPA posted:

Man chases ex wife through town crashing into her vehicle then shoots her in front of their seven year old and two police officers who happen to be nearby.

The officers then let him wander around, armed, for another 90 seconds before he fires four additional rounds into his ex.

Officers then delay medical assistance for 30 minutes while they talk him into surrendering. Witnesses report officers hugging the killer and patting him on the back. Guess the killer's job?

http://www.app.com/story/news/local/eatontown-asbury-park/asbury-park/2015/06/16/asbury-park-shooting/28808357/

http://www.nj.com/monmouth/index.ssf/2015/06/wife_shot_by_neptune_police_officer_dies.html#incart_2box_nj-homepage-featured

Something something about not being there, not knowing the situation well enough, and how its better to trust the officers on the scene than media reports because the Cop always knows best.

Or

So let me get this straight, you want cops to just shoot up every single person they see??? Wasn't this thread complaining about cops not rendering medical aid just like two pages ago...you can't point out police treat each other like humans and the rest of us like animals without wanting everyone treated like animals! Better start reducing police-on-police brutality first, we'll get to everyone else later.

Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jun 17, 2015

# ¿ Jun 17, 2015 07:11

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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