Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Question to Venezuelan goons, has the whole situation in Venezuela made you distasteful toward all forms of socialism and left wing politics in general? Or do you view Chavismo as part of a specific left wing umbrella?

Hugoon Chavez posted:

And as for other nations, funny that you mentioned it. I'm living in Spain and this past year I've seen how Podemos has started to get traction and I've been able to compare it to Chavism. It's all the same play with different actors, with the radical difference that most Spaniards don't consider themselves to be third class citizens like Venezuela's poor, and for that reason didn't flock to Podemos with the same fervor.

Thankfully Podemos has lost lots of ground and I won't have to move again.

After seeing all that, I think Chavez and Podemos are just natural consequences of years of bad government and rampant corruption. The people are often ignored and it gets to a point where the citizens that have been marginalized outnumber those living comfortably, and at that point it just takes a strong leader to use their vote and change the country's course, to good or ill. The best way to avoid it? Governments placing their citizens first and making the status quo at least good enough for most.

I was under the impression that Podemos was very different from the PSUV from talking to Spaniards and they've disliked Chavez for a long time. Why do you say they are similar?

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Sep 8, 2015

# ¿ Sep 8, 2015 05:27

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 02:07

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

As for the first: not exactly. As I already mentioned, it has made me a lot more cynical and weary about politics in general, but then again that might be just me growing older.
I've lived media manipulation or misinformation first hand in favor of a so called socialist regime so I usually come off as confrontational when speaking about left wing politics, simply because there's a lot of hypocrisy whenever leftists speak about the "right wing media" brain washing people and a lot of other usual arguments.

That said, if I were to define myself I would totally fall into the leftist spectrum, but very wary about it. Mostly I'm just in favor of the people's well begin above all, if a right wing government actually takes care of its citizens and people live comfortably and free, I'm all in favor.

That makes sense. You have to keep in mind though that Western Europe and North America never had a wave of far leftists take over their countries. They have had fascists such as Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco; but never a far left leader. The other part about it is that to a degree, it is true. The media in many of these countries are controlled by the interests of big businesses. However, many of the developed Western countries never lived in the world where the media was widely controlled by the government in the fashion that it is in Russia and Venezuela. That is why the left in countries like Spain, France, and the United States think they can play the "right wing media" card as if left wing media can't exist.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

As for Podemos, the discourse is very similar to Chavez' early talks, and Pablo Iglesias has mentioned the Chavist regime as an example to follow, wore shirts with Chavist motives, etc. He has also said a bunch of things that have set up alarms in my head, such as his stance on the media. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not too involved in Spanish politics, but anyone that uses Chavez as an example is an enemy of mine. I can't but hate what my country has become and anyone siding with the people that made it so won't ever be someone I'd follow.

Can't really say. I understand the appeal of Podemos: it's the exact same situation as Chavez' in 99. The people are tired of the overtly corrupt bipartidism and the political campaigns here are basically "it's the other party's fault that X!" "You did Y during your last period and that's why it's ALL hosed up!" all year round. Someone coming in and saying "hey, gently caress those dudes, let's do things differently" has a lot of potential.

To be fair a lot of this sounds pretty vague. Pretty much every new party blames everything on the entrenched parties and bias in the media. Syriza uses this heavily for example. But again I am not from Spain so that guarantees that I am missing context.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Honestly I'd be all up for Podemos had they not triggered all of those red flags during their discourse. Pablo Iglesias presents itself as another populist leader, wearing chavist shirts and talking about controlling the Media to "avoid right wing bias" and he lost me. Add to that the fact that most of Podemos leaders have been proven to be on Venezuela's payroll for different things in the last few years and, well.

Had Podemos been clear about their ideology, been clear of the Chavist movement, and not fall into the typical "point to your opponent's faults and blame them for everything instead of focusing on your own plans" I would've voted for them.

Yeah I can see that. There is a lot of ignorance of the Western left and Venezuela (similar to say Cuba). If it helps there is a lot of divisiveness of how the Western left feels about Chavez and company. For example, in the United States the left that is mostly associated with Occupy Wall Street detests Chavez, dismissing him as early as the '90s as someone who could go potentially authoritarian. In contrast there is also a segment that still sees Venezuela as a country that should be championed. Just look at Jacobin mag articles on Venezuela (many of these are heavily connected to those who successfully push for $15 minimum wage in Seattle).

# ¿ Sep 9, 2015 18:16

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

M. Discordia posted:

I think that people who have concern about civil liberties are seeing that leftist governments in Venezuela, Ecuador, Brazil, and Bolivia are much more inclined towards totalitarianism and less "democratic socialist" than the rosy-eyed propaganda of the mid-00s would have us believe. Similarly, the rule of law as opposed to the arbitrary dictates of the political class is important. How to pursue a particular economic policy without abandoning these tenets is for those who believe in that policy to figure out.

I don't see why Brazil, Bolivia, and Ecuador should be compared to Venezuela. While they have their faults, they are hardly at the level Chavez and co. are. They actually have developing economies and don't crack a whip of authoritarianism whenever given the chance.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

I think that, in the long run, the "21st century socialism" campaigned by Chavez will be a giant red mark in history that will haunt left wing politics for years to come. Man, we keep getting lots of those huh.

Outside of select Latin American countries and hardcore political nerds, nobody even knows who Hugo Chavez is. 20 years from now nobody will even be familiar with Chavez outside of hardcore political nerds and Venezuelans. It's the same reason hardly anybody knows about Pinochet or Suharto. And Chavez hasn't been anywhere near as prominent as those two.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Sep 10, 2015

# ¿ Sep 10, 2015 08:50

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

FYI, Venezuela had the worst real GDP growth rate of any non-war torn nation in the world at -3%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate

Kurtofan posted:

I think the "gently caress America" factor is mostly a thing with populist politics, regardless of left or right, at least that's the case here. You go extreme enough the lines between left and right are muddied.

Sort of like how the far right wing in America throb their hearts toward Putin.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2015 09:25

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

It's a very easy and useful tactic. The big bad monster outside our borders is responsible for everything. Boo, big bad monster, boo!

Pay no mind to the big bad monster inside our borders, though.

It's really easy to create a fictional enemy for the common folk, and the bigger that enemy, the more they eat it up since everyone loves feeling like the underdog in a Disney film.

USA is Cobra Kai and Chavez is Mr. Miyagi!

I've said many times before that a lot of parties and movements don't know what to do once they've "won". If you crafted your entire identity on being "the little guy" then what happens when you become the victor.

It's easy to scream from the top of your lungs that things we be better if we had policy X, but actually deciding how to enact such policy and write the specifics of it is another thing all together.

Socialist parties can scream about how things would be better if we had the workers control their workplaces and the people controlling their economy, but what such policies would even look like are never planned out. Never mind how they would properly be able to keep checks and balances in place when adding a new branch of government for the purpose of citizens controlling the economy so that it doesn't become a puppet of the federal government, or how to properly prop up cooperatives effectively with having staff well trained and engaged. It's easy to cry "It's because of Capitalism!", but finding out how an alternative will work is a whole different ball game. This is what populists movements, especially on the Socialist side, struggle with. If Chavez spent more time finding out how to make PDVSA an efficient company with the workers having control the same way say Semco did, and figuring out a way to have the population plan for infrastructure the way that Porto Alegre does, than possibly these Venezuelan threads would be in a different tone. But instead he took the easy way out and said "gently caress it just nationalize everything!"

In terms of enemies inside our boarders, yeah that's what happens a lot. Well in first world countries at least. Everything is the fault of the welfare spending, gang banging, terrorist, refugee, Muslim druglords. If you like an enemy in the outside, then you must create an enemy from within. The United States is by far the most powerful country in the world, but arguably the most paranoid in the first world.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2015 16:09

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themrguy posted:

I don't think so.

"Sure, that sounds like a good idea ....... IF YOU WANT TO MAKE US LIVE IN CHAVISTA VENEZULA" is going to be a right wing talking point whenver any vaguely progressive policy is brought up for at least the next decade I think. The fact that so many western leftists supported the current regime for so long (case in point the idiot in this very thread) will only make it more attractive to pundits and National Review types.

99% of the World: *GuardiansoftheGalaxyWho?.gif*

Not to mention that Latin America has elected a wave of left wing candidates recently and again they haven't gone off the deep end like Venezuela. You can't just hold one negative example while ignoring the positive.

PerpetualSelf posted:

You are about as revolutionary as a loving potato.

Best sentence in the thread.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2015 05:29

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

PT6A posted:

Hey, even I can accept that Chavez did some things that weren't horrible. A lot of my friends in Cuba benefitted greatly from the aid he provided to Cuba, so even if he was an authoritarian bastard, he was not 100% evil. And I will confess that I even enjoyed the US being called on some of their poo poo now and again. That said, there's absolutely no universe in which the behaviour of Maduro's government presently is even remotely acceptable, and I cannot imagine the sort of mental gymnastics you would have to do to even come close to justifying it at this point.

I thought it was generally accepted that Chavez and his friends were in general a mixed bag, but mostly positive in the beginning, but as time went on they realized they could get away with a lot of poo poo and then pretty much hosed up the entire country.

PT6A posted:

Fidel Castro is one hundred times the man that Maduro could ever hope to be in his wildest fever dream, and even he was a terrible person in many, many ways.

Fidel Castro was a revolutionary who strived for Cuban independence that ended up selling off his entire country to Russia.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2015 10:51

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Hugoon Chavez posted:

It's impossible to tell, but judging by actions I think that's a possibility.

Then again Chavez also tried a military Coup before that and wanted to seize power by force, so my personal views on it is that he was after power and idolization since the beginning.

While I understand how you could read my post as "power corrupts" or "you see yourself as the hero long enough you live to see yourself become the villain", but that isn't what I implied. I feel that it was the PSUV's end goal to always be elected unopposed (whether that is by dictatorship or just having decades of a strong voting base *see Liberal Democratic Party of Japan*). The PSUV likely saw democracy as a means to wiggle their fingers into the government and secure their agenda rather than advertising their agenda to voters and letting them chose in a free and (most of all) fair manner.

There are two faces politcal parties have. The first face is when they are dealt with significant competition. It is easy to see why any party will avoid authoritarian tendencies when faced with a competitive opposition. The second face is when a party has a firm majority without any competition. This is often when a party shows its true face. I assume when PSUV garnered a firm majority of the population's support is when they transferred from occasionally setting off red flags, to truly going off the wall.

M. Discordia posted:

Every American campus slacktivist thinks he would be a commissar or official anime appraiser after the revolution. They don't realize that they would be shot for being bourgeois decadent intellectuals after refusing to report to the coal mines. Anything that throws some reality at the people cheering on Venezuela's suffering from afar in between their 12-hour Xbox Live sessions is good.

This is the new Latin American colonalism -- instead of being dehumanized into a continent of banana exporters by the American military, they are now dehumanized into a continent of leftist rhetoric exporters by the American Tumblr class. It's still the same "you must all suffer in perpetuity for my enjoyment" attitude.

What the hell are you talking about?

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Maduro is my headmate.

edit: godamn that's a terrible first post for a new page.

It's actually a perfect avatar and post match when you think about it.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Sep 11, 2015

# ¿ Sep 11, 2015 12:36

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Chuck Boone posted:

Pablo Iglesias from Podemos said on the case:
We don�t like that someone is being sentenced for doing politics, whoever he may be. We think that in politics, differences have to be settled through the electoral process, and I wish that this man [Lopez] could be a part of the elections so that Venezuelans could be the ones to decide through their vote who should run the country.

Maybe he isn't that pro-PSUV afterall?

# ¿ Sep 14, 2015 00:23

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Gozinbulx posted:

Tanta culpa tiene el que mata la vaca como el que le aguanta la pata.

gently caress him.

I don't understand what this means?

# ¿ Sep 14, 2015 03:36

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Chuck Boone posted:

Your second question - "can he 'win' the next election?" - I presume means, can the PSUV cheat and steal the elections? I think the answer to this question is unfortunately, "Yes!", and I'm sad to say that I am convinced that the PSUV will in fact cheat and steal the election.

Remember that there are more than one way to cheat at elections. We see the PSUV cheating every day. Any time Diosdado Cabello, Maduro or any other PSUV official goes on television and calls the opposition terrorists, criminals, traitors, etc., that's a form of cheating. The sentences against Lopez and the three students are a form of cheating as well: they deliver the message that if you dare speak out against the government or exercise your right to protest, this could be you. Over the summer, we saw five (or six?) opposition National Assembly candidates, including Maria Corina Machado, banned from holding office by decree from the General Ombudsman, of all people. Before that, we saw the arbitrary arrest of opposition leaders, including Antonio Ledezma, Daniel Ceballos, Enzo Scarano, and more. The PSUV has taken all of these measure with the goal of giving itself an unfair advantage in the elections.

Now, the fear is that all of this isn't enough, that no matter how many people they arrest and how many times they call the opposition terrorists, the PSUV will still lose. I think the PSUV see the writing on the wall, and this is where things get murky because the PSUV�s behaviour could become more erratic as it finds a way � any way � to win. Two likely scenarios present themselves: the government could just call off the elections as ComradeCosmobot has suggested, or they could resort to more traditional forms of cheating on election night. I think that it's unlikely that the government will call the elections off, but I think that the idea is worth considering specially given the states of exception declared in Zulia, Tachira and Apure. I think it's far more likely that the PSUV will do things like mysteriously extend voting hours in regions across the country so they can continue to stuff ballots, intimidate voters at voting centers (perhaps through the use of colectivos), etc.

In summary: the PSUV does not have the raw numbers it needs to win, but I believe it will try every trick in the book to ensure a victory in December. We�ve been seeing some of these tricks already over the past year.

People need to remember that even if the PSUV more or less accurately counts the ballots, that doesn't mean they still aren't authoritarian. There are other ways to ensure the rule than fudging the numbers.

EDIT - Would I be considered naive if I thought that the PSUV may not be fudging the numbers too much (if at all) due to the fact that Maduro barely one last election despite most outlets saying he'd comfortably win?

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Sep 17, 2015

# ¿ Sep 17, 2015 12:07

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Chuck Boone posted:

I think that the game the PSUV is playing is that the voting machines themselves are really excellent voting platforms. I just read a news article about how the Consejo Nacional Electoral is going to be adding another round of voting-machine auditing, raising the total number of audits conducted on the voting machines during the electoral process to 21.

Having the machines be honest-to-goodness proper voting machines allows the PSUV to ride the Carter Effect: to point to the machines and the actual process of voting at the machines as being sound, safe, reliable and valid, so that on that most superficial level the elections seem free and fair. Of course, "free and fair elections" mean much more than having proper voting machines, but a distracted/sympathetic audience isn't likely to look too far beyond the headlines. It's the things that don't show up on voting machine audits that are the biggest threat to elections in Venezuela.

Exactly. But hey at least with the authoritarian left there has been progress, have voting machines that actually work! Baby steps!

# ¿ Sep 18, 2015 11:00

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Be honest (current and ex) Venezuelans. How likely do you think that the PSUV will be voted out this December?

# ¿ Oct 10, 2015 18:13

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

I mean even if it is true that the U.S. is supporting the right wing...so what? I'm pretty sure most major parties in developing countries are in the pockets of more industralized countries. You don't think the PSUV receives foreign checks as well? Political parties take money when they can get it.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2015 06:02

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Hugoon Chavez posted:

I'm going to assume you live in the US. Isn't it better to go live in a country that's fighting the Right-Wing? Be part of the change! Join the Chavism and the 21st century Socialism, stop being an armchair communist and become a soldier of the revolution, come on!

I'm sure that you're not the kind of guy that claims he knows what's really going on and idolizes the Chavist movement, from the comfort of a right-wing, first-world country. Surely living alongside the champions of your cause is worth giving up a few commodities.

I've already found him some deals: https://www.priceline.com/fly/#/sea...code=US&v=ALLOW

$214 to be part of a revolution!? Deal of a life-time! Remember, you can live in a goon's mom's house and get eternal free food and luxuries from lord Chavez (his soul never dies), especially since you will be part of his cause.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Oct 12, 2015

# ¿ Oct 12, 2015 11:15

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Chuck Boone posted:

What I don't understand is how a person can claim to be "for the people", to worry about the poor and to want to look out for their best interest and support the PSUV. There's a line there somewhere separating genuine concern for the disadvantaged and blind ideological zeal.

I'm not saying that a party that truly has the welfare of the poor in its heart isn't possible in Venezuela. I'm just saying that PSUV is not it.

The same reason why right wing parties are often assumed to be "better at the economy" and "low on spending". It's the marketing that these parties have been doing since their existence. The PSUV is the party of the poor because they have successfully marketed themselves as that.

The reality is that the PSUV and many of their supporters are ideologues and not politicians or voters. Ideologues aren't loyal to their country or specific social classes, they are only loyal to their ideology. Their end goal is to stomp out free market capitalism, regardless if they have prompt up any sort of alternative.

wiregrind posted:

There are several socialist parties with very different approaches, if the short sighted chavist approach failed, there might be some other socialists who who might be more successful in not screwing everyone over. It's doable.

Bolivia and Ecuador seem to be doing well.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Oct 13, 2015

# ¿ Oct 13, 2015 18:21

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Hey guys, I'm thinking of starting my own political focused forum. I was wondering if I started one if any of you would be interested in joining?

beer_war posted:

And wouldn't you know it, 13 Supreme Court judges conveniently decided now would be an excellent time to announce their retirement.

I'm expecting Maduro to be granted decree powers any day now.

Well poo poo, that is terrible.

# ¿ Oct 17, 2015 06:06

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Even if the Venezuelan right is as bad as Jimmy says they are, how does that stop the PSUV from being a corrupt, authoritarian, economic poisoned party?

# ¿ Oct 18, 2015 20:43

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

^^^I have to admit, that wasn't as bad as I was expecting.

# ¿ Nov 11, 2015 20:53

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Was reading the BBC and came across this:

quote:

Poverty levels were halved between 2003 to 2011 and Venezuela's Gini co-efficient, which measures inequality, improved greatly.

Social programmes sponsored by the government helped boost real income, but many fear that in a recession some of those gains are at risk of being reversed.

A recent study by three Venezuelans universities suggested that poverty had already increased massively. The study suggested 73% of the population now lived in poverty - up from 27% in 2013.

This seems right from what I've been reading. Poverty reduced dramatically in the 2000s, onl for them to raise sky high over the past few years due to inflation and economic collapse.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-34983467

# ¿ Dec 4, 2015 10:38

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Labradoodle posted:

The MUD has stated they have close to perfect witness coverage in voting centers this time around, so we should have a rough idea before the CNE officially announces the results (�f they choose to delay them as usual). Personally, my voting center looked as crowded as in every past presidential election.

Historically, about 60%-70% percent of people vote in parliamentary elections, whereas the number rises to approximately 80% during presidentials. The latest polls had voter intention for today at approximately 70% (here's a breakdown in Spanish of all the polls https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Encuestas_de_las_elecciones_parlamentarias_de_Venezuela_de_2015).

As an American, I envy this. I wish we regularly ticked 60% for presidentials.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2015 19:16

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

While I am all for having more people vote (I'm a fan of mandatory voting ala Australia and Brazil), what could the PSUV possibly gain from having centers open? There is already record turnout.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2015 02:28

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Well I can't say I'm too surprised as the actual voting count process wasn't what the PSUV hosed with, they hosed with literally everything else that involves the electoral process.

CalmDownMate posted:

Also really marks the death of left worldwide now. Every single bastion of left power left in the world is in complete route. From Argentine Kirchner, to Hollande France, Venezuela now. Peru will probably be next to go.

Hardly. North America and various Latin American and European countries are still moving leftward. Things tend to go in cycles as the pendulum swings.

Chuck Boone posted:

Lucena said that they had something like +96% of polls reporting in, but they somehow had 19 districts up for grabs. It doesn't make any sense.

The MUD's final result is 113-54. I hope they do push for that.

If Maduro had a single cell of integrity he would resign. He sank the PSUV and burned Chavez's legacy to the ground in less than three years. Nevermind the fact that he also drove the country off a cliff and has caused so much suffering for so man

I wonder how things would be if Chavez would not have died. I assume very similar?

# ¿ Dec 7, 2015 06:44

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Chuck Boone posted:

If all the numbers are correct, here's the math:

There were 19,504,106 registered electors for the election.

The voter turnout was 74.25%, meaning that 14,481,798 people voted.

68% of 14,481,798 is 9,847,623, which is the number of people who voted for the opposition.

The opposition also apparently just won two circuits in Lara, meaning that they're officially at the 3/5 majority benchmark of 101. This gives them a lot more of legislative muscle to flex.

EDIT: I think a lot of people (yours truly included) are having a difficult time accepting the results. It's clear that the PSUV is done for now. What does it mean for chavismo? Is Venezuelan not a Bolivarian country anymore (whatever that means)? So many questions. One thing is clear, though: the results prove unequivocally what Venezuelans have known for months and months. They PSUV and the Maduro government in particular no longer have the country's confidence.

This makes me think of how Venezuelans are going to look back at this time period. Will they run away from the left forever, or try to have a place for it to re-tweak it on the account of seeing how beneficial "missions" can be?

Labradoodle posted:

Their own gerrymandering tricks created a winner takes all scenario. Thankfully, they're too disconnected from the people that they didn't even consider it would backfire in the end.

The ultimate benefit of democracy. Rules you put in place to benefit your party, can benefit the opposition later.

Crowsbeak posted:

Yes all those people he's animated just will then decide they don't like politics and just take their ball home. ep thats exactly what happened with the the supporters of Goldwater in 1964.

That's not why Goldwater failed at all. He failed because he was too radical for the general populace. More likely what woudl happen to Trump if he wins the nomination.

Crowsbeak posted:

Also @ Venezuelan posters is it probably true to say that Chavez has been your countries Peron or Andrew Jackson?

Andrew Jackson seems accurate.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2015 17:43

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CalmDownMate posted:

ABC.ES says the military forced Maduro and Co to accept the loss and that they were trying to fix the results to 82-84 in favor of the government.

Fact is the vote % won by the opposition was probably closer to 80%

Link?

I'm currently at the website and can't find anything that mentions this.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2015 23:46

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CalmDownMate posted:

http://www.abc.es/internacional/abci-alto-mando-militar-fuerza-aceptar-gran-victoria-oposicion-venezuela-201512070619_noticia.html

Interesting. Though that is the only site that seems to be reporting that matter.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2015 02:10

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Hugoon Chavez posted:

There's a provision in Chavez' constitution for a referendum. Yes/No vote against the question "Should we call for presidential elections?".

This referendum can be called after the first half of a President's period. Maduro first half ends with 2015. There will be a vote and I seriously doubt he's going to keep the seat.

It's amazing how much Chavez's constitution hosed his own party.

Mozi posted:

I'm sure his bus seat is still warm and waiting for him.

I never got the bus driver criticism. He hasn't been a bus driver in thirty years. That's the last thing I'd criticize the PSUV on.

Labradoodle posted:

Apparently the dispute is down to one last seat, circuit three of Aragua. Where the MUD won by 300 votes according to the final tallies.

They're waiting for the paper tallies of a few tables to see if that will affect the results, which they shouldn't, since they're all added electronically. This last seat is crucial because it will give the MUD a 2/3rds supermajority, which is what the government obviously wants to avoid.

For those tuning into these elections, this is why there's always rumors of fraud in Venezuela and we were so vocal about closing voting centers when the law called for it: the electoral council is so obviously beholden to the government party they might as well just go on air right now and say "Hey guys, calm down. We'll give the final results once the party's satisfied with them".

Leading by 1 seat seems awfully suspicious indeed.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 8, 2015

# ¿ Dec 8, 2015 17:16

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M. Discordia posted:

It's pretty clear that selecting leaders based on their willingness to kill people on behalf of Hugo Chavez has played a big part in putting Venezuela where it is. Creating a system where the poor have the ability to go to college and become technocrats is good. Taking bus drivers and bodyguards who never graduated high school and just putting them in charge of the economy is bad. Maduro's career is sort of emblematic of the difference between a rational welfare state and basket case socialism, so it's pretty relevant to Venezuela's larger problem.

I still don't see how any of that has to do with the guy's occupation thirty years ago.

CalmDownMate posted:

edit: Also Here is more on the maybe, potential, who knows??!?!!? actions of the Venezuelan Military according to rumour. El Nuevo Heraldo is usually a decent source for news. They've broken some big stories about rape by the US Military in Colombia in the past.

Interesting. Can anybody else can chime in on El Nuevo's reliability?

# ¿ Dec 9, 2015 14:24

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

So, what do you think really happened?

# ¿ Dec 9, 2015 15:12

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

and ride the wave until Chavism is demolished in all three (yes, three, I'm old school) branches of the government.

How many branches of government does Venezuela have?

Chuck Boone posted:

This reminds me of an argument I've heard and read from pro-PSUV folks who are saying, "See? You won the election. Didn't you say Venezuela was a dictatorship? " That doesn't mean that Maduro doesn't lean heavily to authoritarianism, or that fraud didn't happen/wasn't planned. The MUD won despite lots of fraud and horrendous attempts to undermine the democratic process.

It's pathetic that free votes were the one thing that people could point to the PSUV and say "See!? It isn't totally terrible. And in the end they still planned to cook up the numbers." Pathetic excuse of a party.

Chuck Boone posted:

This is a good question. It also gets back to the "Is Venezuela a socialist country, or a kleptocracy trying to pass as one?" discussion.

I believe that socialism continuously fails because rather than focusing on "how do I give the general population as much power as possible?" it focuses on "how do I give the government as much power as possible?" These are two very VERY different things. I don't even believe that a socialist country of the former has even been established and such politics have only been flirted with. If you want I can go into more detail to what I mean.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Dec 9, 2015

# ¿ Dec 9, 2015 18:16

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Borneo Jimmy posted:

Interesting because because the government just handed over control of ANTV to the workers.
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuelas-State-owned-Media-Channel-Grants-Ownership-to-Workers-20151208-0045.html

Obviously this would prove to be an obstacle for the opposition to get more right-wing, conservative voices on the airwaves.

So he waited all this time before handing the station to the employees? Maybe this is how socialism will come about in Venezuela. Have the PSUV nationalize poo poo and then get scared and give government assets to the employees once the opposition wins. This must have been Chavez's plan the whole time. He knew he was going to die due to U.S. interference so he nationalized everything he could until the PSUV inevitably lost the election. This could backfire though as most politicians would be too stubborn or greedy to hand away nationalized entities. So Chavez put in place Maduro, the pure red hearted socialist, who would see the light of the future. Even in death Chavez pulls the strings.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2015 02:43

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Chuck Boone posted:

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, the MUD published an outline of some of the measures it wanted to take in the National Assembly this year. The outline can be found here in Spanish.

I've just finished translating it into English, and you can read it here. I've done my best, but some of the sections are a little bit rougher than others because some of the language got fairly complicated, as you can imagine.

If this is accurate than MUD is more left wing than pretty much any other major party in Latin America that isn't PSUV. The whole thing reads as Chavez-lite without the authoritarian undertones. Hell much of it reads even further left than the the PSUV. Such as regarding salaries and pensions.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2015 01:13

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

This whole situation of Venezuela has been an utmost disaster. I really can't imagine things playing out worse for the country. All this because they happened to elect a loony who just happened to come into power when the nation's strongest natural resource was about to go through record value spikes, giving the illusion that his radical economic policies were working. Attributing correlation to causation is an incredibly dangerous thing.

# ¿ May 2, 2016 13:44

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

I'm an American who used to frequently post here, but stopped a year ago when the opposition won the legislative branch.

So what changes (if any) occurred?

# ¿ Dec 3, 2016 19:58

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

El Hefe posted:

Venezuela is a dictatorship now.

So it finally crossed that line? What exactly has changed authoritarian wise?

# ¿ Dec 4, 2016 01:02

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Chuck Boone posted:

There will be books written on this, so it's very difficult to summarize it all. Here are a couple of very superficial highlights:

The Supreme Court (which is 100% controlled by the PSUV) struck down every single law that the National Assembly passed. In July, the Court ruled the National Assembly to be in contempt, preemptively sticking down any future law the legislature passed. For all intents and purposes, Venezuela no longer has a legislative branch.

Maduro has been ruling by decree through economic emergency powers that he granted himself without approval from the legislature.

Maduro presented the national budget for 2017 to the Supreme Court, which approved it after a brief meeting. The national budget must be presented before, debated and approved by the National Assembly for oversight and accountability purposes. No one knows what's in the budget for next year.

The government suspended regional elections for governors and state assemblies that were scheduled to take place this year until maybe next year. The constitution mandates that the elections take place this year.

The government refused to allow a recall referendum to go forward against Maduro. The recall referendum is a constitutional tool that is 100% legitimate and legal.

In short, Maduro rules alone through the legitimizing force that is the Supreme Court. There is no legislative branch anymore, and the Constitution is meaningless.

Wow. What was the courts reasoning? Is there any hope left?

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 4, 2016

# ¿ Dec 4, 2016 05:55

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Labradoodle posted:

Before the new assembly was sworn in, the chavista-led assembly forced a bunch of Supreme Court justices to resign and packed the court with their cronies illegally. They don't need any reasoning, they're entirely in the government's pocket. Now, they still back all their rulings with a bunch of legalese, but it's a stretch any way you paint it. I mean, as Chuck said, at one point they just got bored of the whole dynamic of striking down every single ruling the new assembly passed, so they just declared them in contempt and ruled everything they did or would do illegal due to 'reasons'. Chavismo governs by force now and the MUD has dropped the ball at every step of the way to fight the new status quo.

At this point, I think the MUD is pretty much resigned to chavismo until the next presidential elections in 2016. They haven't said so, but they aided the government in killing any hope of a referendum by agreeing to sit down and negotiate with them, after squandering the only card in their hand: massive protests. Right now the only options are waiting until 2019 or hoping for something else to topple Maduro. The problem is, Maduro is just a figurehead, take him out and you still have a massive chavista apparatus with no incentive to make any changes.

I see. You seem critical, and always have, about MUD. It's as if you blame them for things getting out of control just as the PSUV? I wonder why.

Also, if I said that I was a socialist? Would you hate me because of what the PSUV has done to your country? Or see that as a separate thing?

# ¿ Dec 4, 2016 06:42

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Labradoodle posted:

I was very hopeful about the MUD, beginning with the big run-up against Chavez during his last election, and then against Maduro. Once again when they managed to take the assembly with an overwhelming majority against all odds. My main issue with them is that they've always been too meek when it comes to calling out the government and confronting it. We're long past the point where avoiding direct confrontation could prevent violence and save lives. They're obsessed with waiting for the right moment, but the government is not going to give them any openings.

Just to give you an idea of the dire straits we're in, we experienced an inflation of over 50% during last month alone. Over 80% of the country lives in poverty, far more than when Chavez was elected, and we have people dying due to a lack of medicine every day. With the government actively blocking and seizing humanitarian aid when it does come. It's nuts that the MUD still thinks they need to sit down and hash things out.

As for the socialist thing, definitely not. I'm very left-leaning myself, but I don't see the crisis as a consequence of a socialist government. Chavez was a caudillo that tore down the institutions of this country and surrounded himself with corrupt cronies. They aren't a government, they're criminals wearing suits that happen to operate out of Miraflores.

I see thank you.

I also recall, maybe I'm remembering wrong, that years ago you called out MUD for having terrible strategy in appealing voters and ground game so to speak?

# ¿ Dec 4, 2016 07:43

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Chuck Boone posted:

My aunt lives alone and buys things in singles. She said that she spent Bs. 40,000 on a couple of things for herself yesterday (remember that the monthly minimum salary is around Bs. 27,000), and told us that she had no idea how two people living together - nevermind a family of four - can survive for long like this.

Are people like just starving to death?

# ¿ Dec 5, 2016 07:19

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 02:07

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

M. Discordia posted:

Current scoreboard:

Still pro-PSUV:
Jacobin
Counterpunch
Z
The Chapo Trap House/Brocialist/Dirtbag Left/Weird Twitter crowd

Did you just link a blog post from a user as an example? And one of these is a year old.

Saladman posted:

While what you have today and in the last couple years is not socialism, the strong majority of Chavez's period in power was certainly socialism. Trying to call chavismo not a socialist policy (in theory and in action) is historical revisionism. Just because there was a lot of corruption doesn't make it "not really socialism" unless you're whatever the tankie equivalent of chavismo is.

I agree, but to be fair, I think what he was trying to say was "the PSUV didn't try to build a country with an effective socialist system, but rather a country with whatever system helps them steal as much as possible."

Chuck Boone posted:

I am far from wealthy. My family is not wealthy, either. I'm telling you this not because I feel the need to defend myself, but only to demonstrate to you that you're coming into this conversation (and into the topic of Venezuela in general) with a mind full of assumptions that are simply not grounded in reality. I am enjoying the benefits of a robust welfare state (although I wouldn't call Canada "a robust welfare state" - still, I take your point), and I want nothing more than to extend those same benefits - and other, better ones - to the people of Venezuela. But you're deluding yourself if the PSUV is going to do that.

Is the PSUV still all up with austerity?

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Dec 7, 2016

# ¿ Dec 7, 2016 08:47

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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