Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

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zeal posted:

the US sure as hell isn't the Federation

big, bloated, cumbersome, has overwhelming military might

checks out

# ¿ Dec 20, 2015 12:59

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 01:31

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

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Everyone involved are assholes, so just leave the whole area alone and let it sort itself out. See who ends up surviving in the resulting Mad Max hellscape, and watch as they die from climate change over the coming decades :haw:

# ¿ Dec 28, 2015 10:49

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

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Rigged Death Trap posted:

~~Tech~~ corporation has few to no scruples

Shocking

Yeah. It's almost like the function of corporations is to do whatever it takes to make money and not to act like a charity.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2017 13:42

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Mischievous Mink posted:

There's a lot the US can do right now, but instead we live in the reality where Biden supports the genocide and is going out of his way to give as many extra weapons as he can to Israel.

I would suggest that Biden doesn't support the genocide per se. If he thought he could flip a switch and end it with no side effects he almost certainly would, but he's also a long time high level US politician, so he'll keep funding the sacking of Gaza to avoid rocking the boat.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2024 23:03

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Main Paineframe posted:

Joe Biden supports the destruction of Hamas by military means, and while he would really prefer for there to be fewer civilian deaths, as a longtime senior government figure he's well aware that a fuckton of dead civilians is just how the anti-insurgency cookie crumbles in Western military doctrine. The bodycounts Israel has racked up in Gaza are certainly excessive compared to Western wars, but given his position it shouldn't be hard for him to remember various incidents in which American troops just blatantly massacred civilians on purpose as revenge for previous attacks, as well as the heavily urban nature of the combat, so it's easy for him to make excuses for it.

Biden's preferred course of events here would probably be "the war continues, but with a much better ratio of enemy combatants killed to civilians killed". He supports Israel bombing poo poo until Hamas collapses, no matter how many thousands of bombs they have to drop. He just wishes they'd be a bit more careful about avoiding civilian deaths, because he believes that the Israeli goal is "to destroy Hamas" and not "to ethnically cleanse Gaza". I suspect he'd really just prefer if Israel followed the current American tactic of firing "precision" missiles into apartment buildings so that they only murder a few innocent families per bomb, instead of the current Israeli tactic of giving a few minutes warning and then leveling the entire building.

Biden's ideal result, I think, would be something like this: Israeli forces locating a Hamas secret supervillain headquarters underground and bombing the poo poo of it, killing all of Hamas' leadership and causing a collapse of organized Hamas activity, at which point Israel would temporarily occupy the Gaza Strip to clean up remaining militant remnants before allowing the Gazan refugees to return and inviting in the PA to take over governance of the Gaza Strip. With Gazan militancy crushed, Israel would lift the blockade on Gaza, which would enter a new era of freedom and prosperity under PA rule with heavy Israeli and American ~~bribes~~ economic support, which would lay the groundwork for unifying Gaza and the scattered Palestinian West Bank enclaves into an independent pacifistic Palestinian ~~puppet~~ state under the protection of their Israeli neighbors, who would surely defend and foster Palestinians who'd abandoned terrorism and militancy.

Of course, most of that borders on fairy-tale thinking, but it's more or less in line with what Clinton, Bush, Obama, and their senior diplomatic staffs honestly thought the future would be for Palestine. Not just their public-facing stances, either - there's been enough leaks from US-Israeli-Palestinian negotiation sessions to show that American negotiators were downright mystified that actual reality didn't follow those old-timey liberal scripts about freedom and democracy and economic prosperity chasing out the evils of militancy. It's probably safe to assume that Biden, who's been exposed to pretty much the same foreign policy upbringing, has similar hopes for the future of Palestine.

Yeah, this does basically boil down to "the American foreign policy experts are loving delusional". But is that really that shocking? It wasn't that long ago that the US invaded Iraq with absolutely no plan for pacifying the populace, because the president and his top advisers were absolutely convinced the population would treat the invading army as heroic liberators and enthusiastically support the American conquest and occupation of their own country.

all of what you said and what I said agrees with each other? :shrug:

# ¿ Jan 14, 2024 19:11

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Gnumonic posted:

Don't Bomb the Houthis

It seems as though people who seriously study the region think that bombing the Houthis won't achieve our goals, will only strengthen their position, and will only embolden more attacks.

The Houthis have been a somewhat successful rebellion through years of getting bombed (by Saudi failsons playing at being literal weekend warriors, but still), bombing them slightly more and more accurately probably won't end them. IMO it's more that the US wants to show its displeasure by making craters and putting some dead pirates next to missile launcher debris on TV, and hopes that that'll satisfy any domestic anger/business anxiety over piracy. If the Houthis could kindly stop their missile launches after making their own frustrations known loudly enough to their own domestic audience, in time for it to look like US bombings were the reason, that'd be a nice bonus.

# ¿ Jan 14, 2024 19:34

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piL posted:

US foreign policy heavily leans into keeping the high seas open and that the rest of the world will ally against you if you violate this basic tenant.

It's very important to US interests that holding a chokepoint hostage against the entire world, even in the most justified small case, never becomes an acceptable answer. Otherwise whatever happenening whereever becomes a reason to blockade Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam, Korea or Japan until they're appropriately destabilized (perhaps for other reasons). Its in the US's interest that nobody decides this is a valid course in Panama, Malacca, the Mediterranean, or the Capes, because either the US likes using those, likes trade through those, or generaly wants to avoid having to deal with destabilization that results by sudden changes of food, fuel, or economic traffic. The US maintains restricting access beyond UNCLOS limits is an act of war.

Yes, that is the idea, but again, it would require an astounding degree of self delusion to imagine that cratering a rebel drone base in the desert will accomplish more than PR victories against rebels who have notably kept operating while getting bombed for a decade already. Maybe it'll slightly deter a real country with expensive assets you could wipe out, rather than backyard drones that don't require an intact air base to launch, but unless the US follows up with an occupation they won't actually destroy poo poo.

# ¿ Jan 14, 2024 21:51

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

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386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:

I’m thinking this has got to be the mechanism for memory-holing a genocide. If the debate and discussion about a conflict focuses 90+% on everything except the genocide, with the genocide only being brought up occasionally by a few nagging voices, then what will the collective memory of the genocide-causing conflict look like? The only memory will be about 10/7, or about the Houthis or whatever other digression comes up in the future, but all those kids and innocent people in mass graves or buried under rubble in Gaza will be forgotten in most of the English- (or German-)speaking world.

oh among the segments of the british """left""" who want to appear sensible and centrist this is absolutely what is happening

yeah yeah we all agree civilians shouldn't be bombed but what about the dead babies murdered to death by Hamas, who want to kill Israeli babies? And anyway let's talk about why bombing desert terrorist pirates in Yemen is such a good idea that starmer was brilliant to publicly support it

# ¿ Jan 14, 2024 22:50

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go play outside Skyler posted:

Because the UN as an institution fails miserably at dealing with important issues.

The UN as an institution exists so that everyone can air their grievances and then any superpower can say "nah"

# ¿ Mar 22, 2024 15:27

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Tesseraction posted:

Now now, sometimes Britain says "nah."

fine, any superpower plus some ex-superpowers that held onto their nukes

# ¿ Mar 22, 2024 15:37

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

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Why not both? The US backed resolution is toothless, but China and Russia aren't exactly selflessly advocating for the lives of Palestinians (lol at actually believing that, lmao even). The uselessness of the US resolution is a convenient reason to shoot it down, and potentially a step to tabling a more effective one yourself to look good.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2024 00:45

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Rust Martialis posted:

And now Bibi announces land seizures in the West Bank while Blinken is *in* Israel.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/

hahahaha they really don't give a gently caress at all

# ¿ Mar 23, 2024 09:43

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Alchenar posted:

The embassy conversation is weird to watch for me because it seems intuitively obvious that it's simultaneously true that under certain conditions an embassy building is totally legitimate to strike (ie. If you are conducting military activity out of it), but also if you are conducting military strikes directly against another country then you have accepted that you are in a shooting war with them.

also, given new news, getting ready for the general middle eastern clusterfuck war, nothing could possibly go wrong here :toot:

# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 06:34

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counterpoint: humanity was a mistake, return to primordial sludge

# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 14:40

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Vorenus posted:

Reuters is reporting a large blast at an airbase in Iraq. Interestingly, there is a US Stratotanker in the air over Iraq, as there was around the time of the strike on Iran yesterday.

e: BBcode is hard

Which country would want to bomb Iraq right now though?

# ¿ Apr 20, 2024 06:19

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Nonsense posted:

https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1782470614512542119

I agree with this assessment, and rando gently caress heads on twitter and in media trying to sic the national guard on these kids are evil.

yes, and also never underestimate the extent to which hyperventilating idiots have vibes based priorities

# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 07:52

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 01:31

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Raenir Salazar posted:

It objectively is...? In the same way in most languages the term "motherland" usually refers to a place seen as historically as being the place where a given people originate from. The "rodina" or Russian Motherland being "Mother Russia" etc. Of course this will differ based on ones degree of assimilation and this swaps to a different cultural context, i.e Nth generation immigrants to the US who are now "American" and thus America becomes their homeland; so this relies a lot on ones self-identification and sense of belonging.

Israel can be objectively a or the jewish homeland, with jews having a long standing historical claim without the genocide of Palestinians being justified of course.

nah Israel was'nt 'the jewish land' for like 1900 years in-between the roman conquest and the collapse of the british empire

rights to return are all well and good but if you think they stretch back into literal ancient history to justify creating an ethnostate i've got bad news for you

e:

Nebalebadingdong posted:

this is not true. being in a diaspora has been a fundamental part of judaism for a really long time. that's what rabbinic judaism is

in just my personal opinion: the jewish homeland was lost not just in place, but in time, and i consider israeli jews to still be part of the diaspora

alternatively:

Lum_ posted:

almost as if there were two peoples both with valid millennias-old claim to live there

weird

oh well, no solution possible, back to the genocides!

don't be a biden

be an alexander

unleash the B52s to finally flatten the whole region, create a wasteland, and call it peace. not like anyone will be left to fight over the resulting real life radioactive fallout theme park

suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Apr 23, 2024

# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 21:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine