Anne Frank Funk posted:

I tend to paint a grim picture of Poland. Obviously there is a difference between countryside and big cities. Kraków even has a vibrant Jewish community by post war Poland standards. It's the only city in Poland where I've seen Hasidic Jews on the streets. Apart from that there are still Jewish pilgrimages to graves of famous Rebbes. But... that's about it.

Pembroke Fuse posted:

Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic block EU decarbonization legislation. Thanks guys.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/climate-change-2050-eu-eastern-europe-carbon-neutral-summit-countries-a8968141.html

lollontee posted:

that is not why it's good that germany is interfering with attempts to start yet another imperial war against russia

lollontee posted:

why would you wish something like that? seems like a place i could get killed for being a communist in

TipTow posted:

That's right! I understand why, for example, the Baltic states would've wanted to join NATO. But surely it's obvious to see see how three states on Russia's border joining a military alliance with the United States would be seen as threatening to Russia?

Xarn posted:

As someone living in EE, please gently caress off and ideally also die.

TipTow posted:

Some common ground, this is kinda central to my "Russia feeling threatened by NATO" position.

And I appreciate your reasoned discussion with me steinrokkan, as opposed to the two! posters who wish death on me for trying to discuss a pretty complicated situation.

TipTow posted:

I'm probably not articulating myself well, which I know I struggle with. I agree 100% that Russian delusions are a cause of this conflict. But why is Putin delusional? His irredentist streak, again, didn't start until NATO's eastward expansion. In fact, most of the rhetoric coming out of the Kremlin during the '90s and early aughts was fairly pro-Western; Russia was looking to take part in the now (then?)-dominant neoliberal world order.

lollontee posted:

there is no demand to adopt your point of view here i think, except for the unstated pressure implied

cinci zoo sniper posted:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/kremlin-plan-to-install-pro-russian-leadership-in-ukraine-exposed

Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:

It's also culturally out of the question for Germany to defend itself or even meaningfully contribute to its own defense. Defending third countries like Ukraine is even less culturally palatable, particularly when they're in the rightful Russian "sphere of influence".

In addition to the marine guy, other politicians (Ex-chancellor Schröder, Sigmar Gabriel and Klaus von Dohnanyi are some that I know about) have also come out on the side of Russia after being in government. I think this runs deep.

Online newspaper reader comments about the articles covering that marine guy and his "As a Catholic, I think we should join with our brethren in Russia and fight China" rhetoric are about 70-80% in favor across the board from the Zeit (somewhat leftist paper) to the Welt (somewhat rightist paper). His opinion is seen as the pure wisdom of an elder statesman.

Nordstream 2 is similarly untouchable as a great national achievement of Germany, gently caress what other EU countries say.

Considering all that and judging it by its actions, I'm wondering what I would think of Germany as the US president or Ukraine. It's the kind of friend that keeps going on about how much it values your friendship, but whenever you need to call on it, it's unable to make time, doesn't help you and complains publicly about your nerve to ask.

barbecue at the folks posted:

Long history of being in the middle of Europe and quite often being the middle of Europe. There have always been a lot of both left-wing and conservative folks in Germany who see Russia as more of a potential ally instead of a threat.

szary posted:

Sauce on a schabowy? What is this heresy!?

TipTow posted:

Honest question: why are so many people interpreting discussions of antecedents to the current crisis as defending/excusing Russia?

QuoProQuid posted:

there's a tendency among some in the american left to see everything in campist terms, wherein the world is divided between the imperialists (US, NATO, ANZUS, etc) and the anti-imperialists (Russia, China, Syria, Venezuela, Iran). opposing american imperialism means necessarily supporting the latter group and defending/denying its exploitative practices.

this isn't a new phenomenon. it dates back to the cold war.

Tweezer Reprise posted:

D-Pad posted:

Pointing out how Russia views the situation is not the same thing as endorsing or agreeing with that viewpoint. We should be able to have discussions about how another actor views a situation decoupled from whether that view is good or bad, but alas some people just aren't capable of that.

https://unherd.com/2020/02/eugenics-is-possible-is-not-the-same-as-eugenics-is-good/

CMYK BLYAT! posted:

Poland is Building The Wall and destroying pristine old-growth forest in the process https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/polish-belarusian-border-wall-environmental-disaster

but hey maybe they'll obey EU law and not do that

Terminally Bored posted:

Poland is a complete shithole and lately not a day goes by when I'm not deeply ashamed of my country

Anne Frank Funk posted:

lol, our gov decided to blow their pegasus tokens on SEVEN THOUSANDS attack attempts on 500 devices belonging to the Supreme Audit Office employees, y'know the one entity whose stated goal is to control gov overreach.

cinci zoo sniper posted:

This is Polish Bernie Sanders, if we omit a few details.

cinci zoo sniper posted:

I was not characterising Tusk’s politics there, only the extent of hatred and the kind of accusations he earns from domestic right-wingers.

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

For those of us that aren't well versed in recent Polish politics, what's a quick summary of that?

Sinteres posted:

So if Russia is invading, no matter how evil you think it is, does it change anyone's mind about whether the West/Ukraine should have offered any concessions to try to head it off? Even if you think the moral responsibility lies entirely with Russia, isn't there still value in trying to save lives?

Sinteres posted:

Personally, I think what's going on in a lot of people's minds is 'I don't think the West/Ukraine should have had to make any concessions' -> 'therefore they wouldn't have done any good anyway.'

Sinteres posted:

Cognitive dissonance is obviously a real phenomenon, and that's what I think is happening. I'm not going to belabor the point, but I think that would be a natural progression. Deciding an opponent is irrational and can't be reasoned or bargained with in any way is obviously a common thing to do, but I think there are plenty of examples of it leading to dramatically worse outcomes than negotiation.

Sinteres posted:

Yes, this is exactly the phenomenon I'm talking about, in which every US adversary through the years is considered to be literally Hitler just to make clear to everyone that nothing short of their destruction will leave the world safe for freedom and democracy.

Cugel the Clever posted:

All we're asking for is Putin to not invade his neighbors.

Sinteres posted:

I don't know about you, but I certainly have regrets for supporting policies that have led to harm in the past, regardless of whether or not my support materially affected the outcome. Maybe it's a happier life not to worry about such things, so like I said, I guess I'm glad everyone will have a clean conscience. I just hope if the outcome is bad people will reconsider their position in the future.

Truga posted:

no, the westerners came along and made their situation explicitly worse in every way