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asur posted:Are there any guidelines for negotiating if you have multiple offers without a strong preference between them? I'm assuming you want to mention that you have a better offer to improve your BATNA and get them to offer more. Is there a limit to how many times you can come back to the company asking for more because of a better offer? It seems like people would get annoyed or is this just expected? Mentioning other offers isn't necessary as a rule especially if you do not have a better to show them, but only other potential options that could be worth more. For example: Company: 50k. Asur: 70k. Company: 60k. Asur: 70k is commensurate with other offers I have seen and I am afraid it is firm. OR Asur: 70k is the number. It sounds the same to me as the company. In either case if the person at the company wants you and can get to that number they'll get there. Sometimes you hear "we can't get there without a competing offer." This is them calling your bluff and turning over the other offer doesn't guarantee they will match it. On going back and asking for more: do not do this. You are a professional who knows what they are worth and has already provided that number. Presumably you have already gone back and forth a few times so you are meeting some number between your open and the company's open. Trying to shift the upper end is poor form. What do you do when you are negotiating (or finished negotiating) and a better offer comes in? This is the same thing as dealing with your current employer. I am assuming you will/can have documents signed before you deal with the latest offer. What do you do if you asked for 80k and another offer comes in an hour later at 90k? Ask the latest (90k) company for 100k and take it when they say 95k. E: Forgot the first question. For identical offers: counter offer = single offer counter * (1 + M*(n-1)). n is offer number and M can be whatever your risk tolerance is. 0.1 might be mine, others in this thread would say more. So the first offer gets what you'd ask of only one company. The second gets 1+M. The third gets 1+2M and so on. Boot and Rally fucked around with this message at 05:39 on May 26, 2016 |
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May 26, 2016 05:16
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The Capitulator posted:Success story time (in part thanks to this thread). Fantastic! Love the username /post combo.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:44
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Keystoned posted:Interviewed on Monday and they asked for a number/range which I declined to give. It was about 3 hours with three different and they said the next step is a follow up which would be project based and with the cfo - prob another two hours. Have you checked out glassdoor or an h1b database to get any idea of what to expect? Do you know anyone making 150 in that job? It sounds like you haven't done your homework: you don't have any idea what they will say and don't know what you'd ask for to take that job.
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Oct 16, 2019 00:48
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Okay, I just found a very recent application they made for the exact position name for one I just got contacted by a recruiter for, that's going to be very good to know (although I will refuse to give them a number myself, and I also might have to adjust mentally for the lower cost-of-living in this area which is not SV). Thanks! Be sure to scroll down to Section F: Employment and Wage Information and click on the work locations. Most companies are smart enough to create fake titles/positions/whatever so the range they put is the exact salary they are requesting. The company I work for submits the complete pay band.
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Oct 16, 2019 04:22
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Keystoned posted:Not true, I just didnt think the amounts were relevant to my questions. Keystoned posted:Also when I declined to give them a number they said it was just to make sure my expectations werent too high and then they said “for instance, 150 we could never get to”. What if anything does that mean other than the obvious? Did they give away their high end - if so is what would you guess that at? I was asking if you could dig up any information on what that company paid, not market. Good on you for doing research though. I haven't tried getting a confirmed number before the company is ready to offer. The reasoning is the same as why I don't give a number. When I want this information I treat it just like any other interview and go through the motions. In my estimation, any number they give you that isn't at the end of an interview is bullshit. Especially some nebulous "we won't go this high" statement. You hear $149,999 and they hear $100,000. What they hope to do is get a few people in that meet their needs and have one give away that they'd take the job for $120k and then offer the rest of you around that. I think the best you're going to get if you force the issue is a pay band which will be wide enough to not mean anything. What does them giving you a number get you that you don't already know from research? If wages are rising and published numbers are thus low, or something?
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Oct 16, 2019 17:54
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Cacafuego posted:Honestly am leaning back to old company, but I told them I wasn’t happy with the offer they provided, but I didn’t tell them that. We’ll see what they come back with. I can't parse this, what did you tell them? To perhaps skip a followup post: you should always be clear about what you want once numbers have hit the table. You should not say: "This offer is not good enough." You should say: "I'd prefer to start in role 5/5 and at $150k." (I think you said they offered 4/5?)
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Oct 18, 2019 23:48
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Cacafuego posted:I thought I’ve been told several times “never give a number”, why would I tell them $150k? Sorry, I was responding to what I thought your post said. I thought it said they had already made an offer. Once the company says "We would like to pay you $X" never respond with anything but a number unless you're accepting or walking away. Cacafuego posted:This is babby’s first real negotiation, I’m doing my best and I’m not gifted as a wordsmith, so I may not be explaining this well, so forgive me for my ignorance. You're thinking too far ahead. When you get through the interview with the old company your choice is between what they offer and what you currently have. Promises of promotions at your present company are worth zero. If you decide to go and your old company says "Hold up now, we can push that promotion through sooner and pay you $BLAH," then you can evaluate the promotion at current company vs new job at old company. If they do end up being the same $120k then you evaluate based on what you want most and can get today. Like commute, in building gym, whatever floats your boat. You get to 5/5 or more figgies by changing jobs again when you're closer to having enough experience for the level. As Dik Hz says, pay bands disappear for the people a company wants/needs.
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Oct 19, 2019 01:49
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PIZZA.BAT posted:How do you guys recommend responding to those ‘sorry, policy dictates that-‘ roadblocks? I typically go with something along the lines of, ‘well we’re going to need to address that then, do you know who to reach out to in order to appeal this?’ and going from there. It seems like the diplomatic response This: Hoodwinker posted:I just sort of slide right by it and don't even acknowledge it. Briefly: you are smart candidate who knows what they want. You don't ask for permission to do anything, you tell them what you want. To expand on the reply a bit. The company has picked their representative, so you deal with them. Asking for their permission to speak to their manager, so to speak, isn't productive. In the past, one of the responses I have received after doing what Hoodwinker suggests is to be called back by the manager. The manager said, "no seriously, that is the best we can do." Sometimes they promise some bullshit that isn't written down, so is worthless, like "we all leave early!". Other times they just say "welp, I guess we are stuck" and move on to the next candidate. In both cases, I knew what it took to get me to take the job, I was fine with just walking away.
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Oct 20, 2019 17:06
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The information you're missing is what the job pays other people in similar situations. Without that information it is hard to gauge your next action. Mr Newsman indicates that your underpaid now, but it isn't clear if $110k is a 'bump' or a 'bump to standard'. Dig through career websites or H1B databases to try and get an independent idea. You're in a slightly different position than what is standard for this thread because your old manager (presumably) knows what you're currently paid. They may be the best manager in the world, but this is your livelihood. You need to find out, as best you can, what you should be paid. Do not just take the word of the people who currently pay you and the people who want to pay you.
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Nov 15, 2019 15:37
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Hi Thread! I’ve got a story about negotiating. I like my current job, but I don’t like the city it is in. I figured I’d go looking for a job in a city I’ve lived in before and liked. I currently make $165k and have 32 days of vacation/pto/floating holidays and a completely rad boss who gives zero fucks about me taking 6 weeks off in a stretch. I’m scheduled to get into the local management thing they send future managers to and I’m in the process of filling two positions that will report to me. So my BATNA is pretty good. I landed an interview with a company in a city I’d be happy to move to and murdered the interview. The job is technically a promotion giving me official ‘management’ title. However, the job itself is not super thrilling. A friend of mine works in the industry and he works his contacts and finds the salary range for the position is $130k-$192k. He said that his company hires equivalent people at $155k. The initial offer comes in at $130k and 12 days PTO. The other benefits are similar enough that they aren’t worth considering. I counter with $170k and 22 days PTO. I thought long and hard about those numbers. I’ve had other offers in that salary range, so my current salary isn't a fluke. The prospective company noped out. Oh well. I guess I’ll have to learn to like this poo poo town. Or spend all my vacation somewhere else. E: Or settle for a massive pay and vacation cut.
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Feb 23, 2021 04:37
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Yeah, I was not super thrilled with the offer but knew they wouldn't get anywhere close to 32 days. I've found that increased PTO is virtually impossible. I've given companies a choice between 5 more days PTO and $50k more and they always say 'more PTO is impossible, we'll see about the $50k'.
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Feb 23, 2021 05:28
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Smif-N-Wessun posted:To add to this, I don't even know how they can not know the budget of the role that they are hiring for. How is that even a possibility? lol Several of my friends work in industries where there is a "functional" (this seems to mean different things to different people) manager and then a higher level manager that controls the budget. The functional manager doesn't know any salaries. It seems stupid to me, but it happens.
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Mar 5, 2021 00:12
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So I've been trying to get an offer out of a company for a few days now. When I spoke to the hiring manager and their boss they told me that an offer had already been approved and they weren't sure why it had not already been sent to me. Since then the HR person spent days trying to get me to provide compensation expectation. I finally sent HR this:Sent to HR posted:My understanding from (Hiring Manager) and (Boss of Hiring Manager) is that the offer is already approved, so it isn't clear to me what this number will be used for. Can you please provide (company's) expectations so I get an idea what you're talking about. HR posted:Hi Boot and Rally – (Hiring Manager) and I are working to put an offer together so we can then obtain the approvals. If you do not wish to share your expectation, that’s okay. It’s in the candidate’s best interest that we ask for a comp expectation so we can then work to meet/exceed the expectation. We will respectfully proceed without this information. I can't help but think that "respectfully" is not a good sign. I'm not broken up about it, but it is odd. Certainly not going to list a number now. Keep in mind they have not discussed benefits at all.
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Dec 9, 2021 20:49
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Boot and Rally posted:So I've been trying to get an offer out of a company for a few days now. When I spoke to the hiring manager and their boss they told me that an offer had already been approved and they weren't sure why it had not already been sent to me. Since then the HR person spent days trying to get me to provide compensation expectation. I finally sent HR this: So HR got back to me with an offer. It is ~10% raise including retirement and other stuff, less time off, it is customer facing (I don't do this now) and wouldn't be managing people (I currently only manage 1). It is a move to a much larger field. Maybe 10,000 times larger. My suspicion is I am basically stuck in my current job, so the new job has upsides. The goal is chances to actually advance, but this particular role is not an advance. I need to talk to the hiring manager directly about how advancing works. If I'm going to be stuck in that role (I approach things as promises are worth nothing) then a 33% raise and keeping my time off might do it. Boot and Rally fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Dec 12, 2021 |
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Dec 12, 2021 03:31
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Inner Light posted:Available for free here to see your own data: https://employees.theworknumber.com/ Has anyone done this? Is it a scam or what? Magnetic North posted:I finally got a response for my request for as raise that I brought up in October. I knew it was going to take until the new year, but it's not going into effect until March, so let's call it 5 months of waiting. It's 10%, instead of the 20% I needed to stay at market in October, and honestly that gap is now closer to 25% now. Also, that 10% is basically the COLA from when I started in 2019 at a total of 8.8. If I had left in November and gotten my 20% (which I think was at least plausible considering the market), then in 5 months I would have already made up a big chunk of this raise. I agree that it is to the thread's benefit for people to talk about coming around to realizing their value and ruthlessly chasing paper. Relatedly, it can be a slog to get that next job. I find stories that aren't just "I got paid 30% more!" instructive and helpful.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:56
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Boot and Rally posted:
I posted this about six weeks ago. The hiring manager said the group was expanding and will need new management in about 6 months. Five weeks ago I told them I'd be more comfortable with a position that retains or advances me as a manager, so I'd like that role. They pulled the offer an hour later. I was fine with it. They emailed me yesterday to say that things may have changed, but they didn't say that role was now open. I'm certain the HR person doesn't like me while the hiring manager is very interested, so the HR person is a bigger obstacle than usual. I'd like a new job, but not on the back of a goat rodeo.
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Feb 5, 2022 03:42
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spatula posted:The post above suggests that I should have just said "I have multiple competitive offers" which is lying lol. What is lying about it? You clearly had multiple offers, so I'm guessing it is the word 'competitive'? I have a few rhetorical questions and points to make about several threads that appear in your posts here. First and foremost this thread is about changing mindsets, which is not always easy. Don't take it too personally when someone says "you clearly hosed up". There are several companies competing to win your employment. Those companies have furnished offers that are competing for your signature. This final company is competing with the others and your current job. That said, some job postings will say "competitive salary" which implies some relation to market rates, but that relation is not some 'truth' with a verifiable meaning. Do they mean median? Average? How do they know your skill level? The only 'truth' is the numbers on the offer sheet that would convince you to sign. You gave them a lot of information, but did you give them documents? Why should they believe any of the numbers you gave them? In this case they may believe you, because you told them that their offer is similar to your current job and the other offers, but do you think they would have believed you if you said all the offers were for $250k cash money + others (assume it was true for this example)? Go back through the thread, there is an example a couple pages ago of a company demanding to see the other offer or current pay check. If you were on a car lot and the sales person said "I'd love to sell you this car at $35k but someone is driving in tomorrow to buy it at $45k", would you believe them? If I remember your previous posts, you got two offers you didn't like and you tried to convince the third company to increase their offer by telling them a bunch of numbers. It doesn't look like that is going to get what you want. If they don't provide compensation or opportunity your interested in, walk away. You're in a hot market with a hot skill set, the next offer will come along. Just send a simple email like "Thanks, I'll sign today for $220k/stuff/more stuff." Also, don't get caught up in what other people make or do. Don't take this personally either. Compensation is a combination of a whole bunch of 'market factors' and other bullshit, it is not a score.
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Feb 12, 2022 17:25
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Quebec Bagnet posted:I accepted an offer. For reference I make $116k now as a post-sales solutions engineer in NYC, not in FAANG or finance. I was a bit confused by this post because you do not make $116k now, you make $150k. 
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Feb 16, 2022 21:35
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spatula posted:thanks. do you really think its a red flag? I was still considering taking it because I hate my current job and the emotional cost of continuing to interview is so high I don't think I want to. I would just feel like a loving idiot after asking for more and saying it's not in line with my other offers Go easier on yourself! From your previous posts is sounds like they have a lot of details which empowered them to not budge. In general, I don’t think them not accepting a counter is a red flag all by itself. If you think the job is a step up or need a new environment, take the job and get out of the market for a while to clear your head and then jump back in. Stop worrying about what other people are doing. You can still accept with something like “ok, I liked the team and Project X looks exciting. I’ll send over the signed offer letter later today.” I’ve had companies pull offers entirely. I took it to mean they thought they could get someone cheaper. A different recruiter found me 6 months later, they had not. Do what is best for you, including asking for more money. E: fixed a typo Boot and Rally fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 02:16
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It was fine, jemand provides some very detailed feedback. I'll take my own and stay short! They are only reading the $215k. It takes practice, you're doing that now. It is a skill and like all skills, some pick it up faster than others. Some get lucky and never have to. What people are telling you and saying or doing is just noise. It can be hard to ignore. I think you're in software right? That market isn't cooling off any time soon. Take a break if it is driving you nuts.
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Feb 17, 2022 05:10
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Anyone else getting an identical list of questions from everyone? 1. When are you available to start a new position? (Please specify a time frame) 2. What is the best phone numbers to contact you at? 3. If hired, will you provide evidence that you are legally authorized to work in the U.S ? 4. Are you willing to relocate? (Yes/No) Is relocation assistance required? (Yes/No) 5. What is your preferred location? 6. Are you willing to travel? If yes, what percentage of time? 7. What is your expected annual base salary? 8. Please send an updated word/PDF resume. I wasn't getting these in December of last year. They bury it in question 7, but as near as I can tell they are cutting hard on salary asks these days. You either name a number they can agree to first thing or radio silence. It is fine with me, I'm just interviewing to keep my chops up, and these jobs look terrible.
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May 8, 2022 15:22
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MrLogan posted:I messed up my negotiations. They wouldn't name a number first, so I went with $155k, knowing I'd accept $140k or above after negotiations. Hot drat Eric is extremely cynical. It is a bonus for folks looking to find some temerity. That said, what does "Their initial salary offer is for $160k" mean? Do you now know the pay band was $160k at the entry or was it just that you asked for $155k and they offered $160k? I'm just curious. I get the impression that people think "if I get a kick rear end offer that pays me what I am worth I can stop looking for new jobs". Truly though, one never stops looking. Even if they threw $200k at you, you'd be looking again in two years. Congrats on hitting above your target. Good luck in your next search.
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Jun 5, 2022 02:26
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Quackles posted:I believe it's to enter '1' or '0' and then explain if they ask you about it later on. I've been getting "please enter a real number" when I enter "0" or "1". I enter "2" and never hear back. I guess I work in a field that is cutting hard on that poo poo.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:59
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Upgrade posted:lol, if you want fun interview days, look at senior higher ed positions. my last go around was 2 full days. probably collectively met with 75+ people, outside of the presentation (50+ attendees). For like $50k/year and semiannual fights to the death for funding.
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Jun 14, 2022 05:23
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